Spectral Instruments - Conversion non-antags

[conrad]

I'll preface this by saying I am very, very mad. If I come across a little direct, I apologize.

The subject is how the spectral instrument skeletons should be treated, and how other conversion non-antags (if they exist, or come to exist) should be treated.

From what I understand, the spectral instruments are a very, very rare piece of maintenance loot. However, just in the last two weeks, we saw, I believe, three rounds where someone found the loot in maintenance, used it to convert a bunch of people, which leads to two problems: the skeletons aren't antagonists, which means they're bound by escalation policy, and so are most of their victims.

This generates a ton of ahelps since they are not antagonists, and can spawn controversial notes/bans.

I see three solutions for this:

• Remove spectral instruments from the maintenance loot pool. Would require a code change for this and, fuck it, I'll do it

• Treat instrument converted skeletons as regular team conversion antagonists (this is my preferred solution). Setting an antagonist flag for converted skeletons would also require a code change (I could do it but I have no idea how to even start)

• Maintain escalation rules where the skeletons are not antagonists and make it optional for them to convert (I think everyone is gonna hate this, but it doesn't require a code change.)

I know some of these require code changes, but hell, it's a fucking ballache to admin a round where people find the fucking spectral instruments. I can only imagine what ballache it must be to be bwoinked senseless as a player from them as well.

If I said something incorrect, please let me know.

Thoughts? Thank you for your attention

[TypicalRig]

I'm just gonna copy and paste what I said in my other topic since Conrad The Rat beat me to it...

---

They should count as antags, or psuedo antags like abductors, at the bare minimum.

"You are the spooky skeleton! A new life and identity has begun. Help your fellow skeletons into bringing out the spooky-pocalypse. You haven't forgotten your past life, and are still beholden to past loyalties." - The exact flavour text you get upon being converted.

I got noted for killing one that was doing nothing on the basis that they "aren't an antag", but I can't be assed to write yet another note appeal over some vague grey area that isn't even properly covered by any rules (minus a headmin policy that declares ghost roles must follow their flavour text, but trumpet skeletons aren't "ghost roles", yet it's the closest thing I can find that has a similar premise)

My argument is as follows. Conversion skeletons have this flavour text to make more, thus making them an antag with an obligation to follow such objectives. Conversion skeletons also have the same meta protections that team antags do which keeps you from attacking them for race changing you after you've become a skeleton, because you are now on their side. So now, you are stuck as a skeleton indefinitely with no means of revenge. On top of this, not being able to attack them until proven guilty of using the instrument when they can irreversibly convert you with six hits, is too strong of a one-sided metaprotection. At least with revs, you can mindshield them in bulk to prevent their behaviour or test them. With skeletons, you are just expected to wait until they attack you first? What kind of braindead logic is this.

The skeleton players have also been treating it as such and already breaking into areas with a ridiculous amount of force to convert others, so clearly I'm not the only one confused about where they stand. At the bare minimum you shouldn't be punishing people for treating them as antags when they have an objective telling them they gotta convert others. It's a bit ridiculous.

[conrad]

I'm just gonna copy and paste what I said in my other topic since Conrad The Rat beat me to it...

Observerd and catalogued issue of skill.

[SkeletalElite]

The kind of half antag state they are in is no good. You can't kill them because they're "not an antag" but also they're fully permitted to act like antag (grief you with their conversion instrument).

They should not exist in this half way state. Either they are an antag and you can do whatever you want to them or they should not be permitted to randomly convert people with their instrument with zero justification.

[RaveRadbury]

Convert antag loot sounds horrible. This is like the morph syringe but way worse. Gut it from the loot tables.

[NamelessFairy]

Rave brought up my point, this is morph syringe but for a conversion antag which is awful. Gutting it from the loot table would be fine imo but since thats code the best we could probably rule here for the time being is that your not allowed to convert people into skeletons without their consent?

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I absolutely despise this, and other forced changes to my character. The sooner this is removed, the better.

[sinfulbliss]

No need to axe a fun feature people enjoy just because it generates ahelps. Everything that impacts people's rounds generates ahelps I reckon, it's not a good reason to remove it unless it's genuinely confusing.

Maintain escalation rules where the skeletons are not antagonists and make it optional for them to convert (I think everyone is gonna hate this, but it doesn't require a code change.)

I like this solution best. You should only kill a skele that's trying to convert you, chasing you, etc. Making them full antags would be a bit far I think, although it sounds like a good solution at first glance, the issue is then they could start lethaling people and going a bit insane over trying to convert, plus it ruins the dynamic since then people don't have as much incentive to resist since free antag.

Rave brought up my point, this is morph syringe but for a conversion antag which is awful. Gutting it from the loot table would be fine imo but since thats code the best we could probably rule here for the time being is that your not allowed to convert people into skeletons without their consent?

This is also a bizarre solution IMO, where's the fun in it if you need their consent first? The whole enjoyment from skele comes from the fact skeles band together and try to bring more humans, against their consent, to their side. You end up with like a few humans left forced to defend themselves lethally to protect their humanity. It makes for a cool story and just because it creates work for admins doesn't mean it should be gutted.

[Archie700]

• Maintain escalation rules where the skeletons are not antagonists and make it optional for them to convert (I think everyone is gonna hate this, but it doesn't require a code change.)

I can't begin to think of what a clusterfuck it would be if that were the case.

Just make it a wizard spawn and make it so it only works for wizards

Actually just dumpster it.

[conrad]

No need to axe a fun feature people enjoy just because it generates ahelps.

That's a contradiction. People ahelp precisely because the feature isn't fun.

[Archie700]

No need to axe a fun feature people enjoy just because it generates ahelps.

That's a contradiction. People ahelp precisely because the feature isn't fun.

Wait, it's not fun to get forcefully converted with 1 hit by the horn and not being able to do anything about it beforehand because they're not antags?

Shocker.

[MooCow12]

Even if you dont consider them a conversion antag, the fact that they can quickly change your species while at the same time brainwashing you to not retaliate for it means you can take escalation to an extreme level when a group of skeletons run at you and starts hitting you with funny trumpet


Yes im telling you to activate that grenade in your backpack.

[sinfulbliss]

No need to axe a fun feature people enjoy just because it generates ahelps.

That's a contradiction. People ahelp precisely because the feature isn't fun.

People ahelp in cult and revs too, does that mean the gamemodes are unfun and should be removed from config?

[conrad]

No need to axe a fun feature people enjoy just because it generates ahelps.

That's a contradiction. People ahelp precisely because the feature isn't fun.

People ahelp in cult and revs too, does that mean the gamemodes are unfun and should be removed from config?

That's a very, very poor comparison. Those are antagonists with rulesets, that don't spawn as random loot. They have rules and a way to satisfyingly resolve ahelps. Admins can look at logs and give players closure. Sometimes that closure isn't what the player wants, but it's better than not having a policy where everyone is pissed off.

I'm not sure if you played in rounds where a spectral instrument spawned in maints, but the usual course of action is:
- Assistant finds spectral instrument.
- Pokes someone and turns into a skeleton.
- Pokes someone and they turn into a skeleton.
- Continue until someone who doesn't want to turn into a skeleton ahelps.
- Entire station is a bunch of skeletons and malding people ahelping.
- Angry skeleton kills tiding skeleton that turned them. Tiding skeleton ahelps.
- Someone kills a skeleton that wasn't even carrying an instrument and didn't intend on turning them. Skeleton ahelps.

It's a fucking nightmare to admin, and it leads to unsatisfying conclusions since whatever the outcome of the ahelp, someone's gonna get pissed off and there's no rules saying they're incorrect in being pissed off.

Does this make more sense?

[zxaber]

From an entirely policy-only direction, I'd vote for making force-change skeletons a minor team antag (possibly ruling against grand sabotage and boning with policy text). This would be somewhat consistant with how we treat force-changed spiders, slimes, and syndi-borgs.

[AwkwardStereo]

Aren't people who try to or have already forcibly race changed people valid?

[sinfulbliss]

No need to axe a fun feature people enjoy just because it generates ahelps.

That's a contradiction. People ahelp precisely because the feature isn't fun.

People ahelp in cult and revs too, does that mean the gamemodes are unfun and should be removed from config?

That's a very, very poor comparison. Those are antagonists with rulesets, that don't spawn as random loot. They have rules and a way to satisfyingly resolve ahelps. Admins can look at logs and give players closure. Sometimes that closure isn't what the player wants, but it's better than not having a policy where everyone is pissed off.

I'm not sure if you played in rounds where a spectral instrument spawned in maints, but the usual course of action is:
- Assistant finds spectral instrument.
- Pokes someone and turns into a skeleton.
- Pokes someone and they turn into a skeleton.
- Continue until someone who doesn't want to turn into a skeleton ahelps.
- Entire station is a bunch of skeletons and malding people ahelping.
- Angry skeleton kills tiding skeleton that turned them. Tiding skeleton ahelps.
- Someone kills a skeleton that wasn't even carrying an instrument and didn't intend on turning them. Skeleton ahelps.

It's a fucking nightmare to admin, and it leads to unsatisfying conclusions since whatever the outcome of the ahelp, someone's gonna get pissed off and there's no rules saying they're incorrect in being pissed off.

Does this make more sense?

It makes sense, but people ahelping because they don't wanna become a skeleton is a terrible reason to ahelp. It's sort of a "tough shit" moment... Policies shouldn't cater to people so attached to their static's appearance that they mald in tickets until admins cave and make a policy for them.

I also don't think everyone is pissed off here. Most players have fun with skele that I've seen, if you're mainly exposed only to tickets which are by definition from players that are unhappy with the outcome, it makes sense that it would seem everyone's pissed about it.

One time I tried to kill someone who skele'd me because I didn't know we were on the same side after I got turned. An admin bwoinked me about it and now I know, problem resolved. I enjoy the gameplay regardless of that having happened. The last scenario is overescalation pure and simple.

[TypicalRig]

I don't dislike the feature enough to be axed. I just want a clearly written policy on what skeletons can and can't do, and their interaction with the crew if admins are going to be dishing out notes on them. It's not fair to issue notes or bans on things that are such a grey area. And it's not like this is that recent of a feature, yet nothing is written down in regards to it, as far as I can find.

[Archie700]

It makes sense, but people ahelping because they don't wanna become a skeleton is a terrible reason to ahelp. It's sort of a "tough shit" moment... Policies shouldn't cater to people so attached to their static's appearance that they mald in tickets until admins cave and make a policy for them.

I also don't think everyone is pissed off here. Most players have fun with skele that I've seen, if you're mainly exposed only to tickets which are by definition from players that are unhappy with the outcome, it makes sense that it would seem ev

It is literally a problem when skeletons:

• Changes you irreversibly to a skeleton with a few honks.
• Is encouraged by the flavortext to convert as many people as possible.
• Isn't somehow a team antagonist, meaning you can't just kill them immediately.

And this is for a maint loot item. Not even a traitor roundend item or wizard item, where it would make sense for the traitor or wizard to grief the station with this.

One time I tried to kill someone who skele'd me because I didn't know we were on the same side after I got turned. An admin bwoinked me about it and now I know, problem resolved. I enjoy the gameplay regardless of that having happened. The last scenario is overescalation pure and simple.

This is EXACTLY the type of situation that should be avoided. Cult and rev are easier because one side is unquestionably an antagonist and the admin has a much easier time to check logs. You can't do the same for "funny skeletons"

[sinfulbliss]

It is literally a problem when skeletons:

• Changes you irreversibly to a skeleton with a few honks.
• Is encouraged by the flavortext to convert as many people as possible.
• Isn't somehow a team antagonist, meaning you can't just kill them immediately.

None of those are problems, and it's a super rare thing to happen anyway. The only reason this policy thread exists is because Murmic got noted for killing a skele that he thought was evil.
I just don't see why the odd 20th round where skeles even exist, which might spawn a few tickets, is enough to neuter it in policy.

[AlamoTurtle]

I don't wanna kill the fun for the dinguses who enjoy the stupid skeletal instrument, but I also don't want to be converted by a bunch of maniacs. I disagree with Sinful by seeing that there's nothing wrong with it.

"Maintain escalation rules where the skeletons are not antagonists and make it optional for them to convert (I think everyone is gonna hate this, but it doesn't require a code change.)"

If we're going to stick with this ruling, just because it's like a revolution but with skeletons, I recommend there is a small code change: Give people who are carrying a spectral instrument some purple aura that signifies their threat, so people can be on edge and can rightfully attack those who charge them down mindlessly with the skeletal instrument. If you don't want to be treated as a valid skeleton, just ditch your instrument.

[Armhulen]

The problem is not just that it ruins your static but that you, by the flavor text, aren't allowed to retaliate.

[iamgoofball]

This generates a ton of ahelps since they are not antagonists, and can spawn controversial notes/bans.

wow it's almost like they aren't antags and thus shouldn't be doing antag stuff just because they became a skeleton

i'm sorry that you're incapable of administrating the playerbase and need coders to do all the hard work for you

[iamgoofball]

from a raw powergame standpoint being turned into a skeleton is a buff, and can be undone by simply having medbay transplant your brain into a humonkey

grow up and just ban people who go on murder sprees just because theyre a skeleton

[Armhulen]

Goofball you of all people should understand the baseline expectation for mechanics non-antagonists can use on other people without their consent to ruin their static should at least allow for retaliation
Like YOU should know above all else from your experiences

[BrolyButterfingers]

Stop removing all the stuff I find fun

Whenever I find it I just ask if people want to become a boner

Also turning someone into a skeleton without their consent should just be assault like anything else

That said, rounds are like 60 minutes long, I don't really care if how mad you are that your mothman got turned into a boner

Just change the flavour text to remove any idea of antag status or not-allowed-to-retaliate or whatever, and just make it bonehorn that makes bones with no strings attached and normal escalation.

[Shadowflame909]

Wouldn't it be great if this was some sort of temporary anomaly

Like by destroying one phantom instrument all of them dissapear and everyone reverts back into their previous race.

Or if holding a bible/having it on your persons made you immune to the race swap?

Just some ideas that wouldn't completely gut the event like a fish, but make it a lot more minor and more like a rare event instead of its own game mode.

[iamgoofball]

Goofball you of all people should understand the baseline expectation for mechanics non-antagonists can use on other people without their consent to ruin their static should at least allow for retaliation
Like YOU should know above all else from your experiences

please note that i said "ban people who go on murder sprees just because theyre a skeleton", not "ban people who have been slighted ICly and decide to retaliate"

i dont care if a fresh skeleton beats down the guy who skeletonized him without asking

i do care if that fresh skeleton murders some rando skeleton because he didn't check names first or have any evidence

this shouldn't need policy this should already be covered by rule 1 as written

[Pandarsenic]

The funny skeleton status doesn't make you an antag and if you convert someone they are free to beat you up and you are not free to retaliate just like a dozen other ways you can start shit with people and it's overescalation if you then use it as an excuse to kill them, no?

[Pandarsenic]

Also if mass murder is murderboner then mass-converting people into skeletons is bonerboner

I will not be taking questions

[Archie700]

Read these before you say "just retaliate against skeletons who turned you"

"You are the spooky skeleton! A new life and identity has begun. Help your fellow skeletons into bringing out the spooky-pocalypse. You haven't forgotten your past life, and are still beholden to past loyalties." - The exact flavour text you get upon being converted.

The problem is not just that it ruins your static but that you, by the flavor text, aren't allowed to retaliate.

One time I tried to kill someone who skele'd me because I didn't know we were on the same side after I got turned. An admin bwoinked me about it and now I know, problem resolved. I enjoy the gameplay regardless of that having happened. The last scenario is overescalation pure and simple.

Please read. You literally cannot retaliate against skeletons who turned you into a skeleton according to the falvortext, because they are your comrades now and you are basically part of their faction unless you are an antag already prior to conversion.

To make it clear, this is basically a forced conversion antagonist role without the antagonist.

[Pandarsenic]

Yeah change that shit flavortext

Oooooor enforce the valid retaliation anyway

It's not like this would be the first flavor text the game gives people that we've told them to totally ignore ("Gone postal, hijack shuttle?" on Manuel) so at least this time it should be about letting people kick the ass of people who fucked with them

[conrad]

i'm sorry that you're incapable of administrating the playerbase and need coders to do all the hard work for you

grow up and just ban people who go on murder sprees just because theyre a skeleton

[kieth4]

I find the skeletons fun and and a rare departure from the normality of the round to goof a bit. I especially like making a skeleton name when converted to get some kinda pun.

I'm happy with the policy at current really, although I recognize that from internal discussions quite a few admins are not and want the event gone.

I like the idea of following the flavour text and I don't see the issue with a bit of conversion. I think people are overreacting and coping about their races getting changed. Just take the L once in a whole imo.

[conrad]

I find the skeletons fun and and a rare departure from the normality of the round to goof a bit. I especially like making a skeleton name when converted to get some kinda pun.

I'm happy with the policy at current really, although I recognize that from internal discussions quite a few admins are not and want the event gone.

I like the idea of following the flavour text and I don't see the issue with a bit of conversion. I think people are overreacting and coping about their races getting changed. Just take the L once in a whole imo.

What happens when people validhunt skeletons, then?

[BrolyButterfingers]

If you get rid of the spook doot horn I will be very sad and it's pretty much the last fun thing left in maintenance

[conrad]

If you get rid of the spook doot horn I will be very sad and it's pretty much the last fun thing left in maintenance

I really sense that the general vibe is that it's better to fix the current issue than to remove the item entirely.

You'll see that my preferred solution is to make the skeleton a full on minor antag.

The fourth solution that is cropping up that I didn't notice is to not only make getting more skelefriends optional but also needing consent to be skeletonized. I think that's a fair option, but I don't like it since this is also a halloween item and in halloween you should definitely make spooky friends.

I stand by the antag option since it spices up rounds.

[kieth4]

I find the skeletons fun and and a rare departure from the normality of the round to goof a bit. I especially like making a skeleton name when converted to get some kinda pun.

I'm happy with the policy at current really, although I recognize that from internal discussions quite a few admins are not and want the event gone.

I like the idea of following the flavour text and I don't see the issue with a bit of conversion. I think people are overreacting and coping about their races getting changed. Just take the L once in a whole imo.

What happens when people validhunt skeletons, then?

I'll bring this up for discussion in the headmin channels but I don't think you should be able to hunt the skeletons unless they're trying to convert you. Could make for some cool rp with everyone holed up in botany as the skeletons try to break into convert people for example. (This would be nonlethal for the skeletons but allow lethality for the botanists.)

[conrad]

I find the skeletons fun and and a rare departure from the normality of the round to goof a bit. I especially like making a skeleton name when converted to get some kinda pun.

I'm happy with the policy at current really, although I recognize that from internal discussions quite a few admins are not and want the event gone.

I like the idea of following the flavour text and I don't see the issue with a bit of conversion. I think people are overreacting and coping about their races getting changed. Just take the L once in a whole imo.

What happens when people validhunt skeletons, then?

I'll bring this up for discussion in the headmin channels but I don't think you should be able to hunt the skeletons unless they're trying to convert you. Could make for some cool rp with everyone holed up in botany as the skeletons try to break into convert people for example. (This would be nonlethal for the skeletons but allow lethality for the botanists.)

Appreciated!

[Fatal]

Is the chances of this spawning related to any config or anything?

I've been here, well, forever, apparently this code has been in the game for a few years now whereby this spectral trumpet can spawn, albeit very very rarely

And then in the space of 2 weeks or so we've had it spawn 3 times whilst I've been in the game on terry. Given I've probably played only a 10-20% of the rounds on terry in these last 2 weeks, that certainly doesn't seem like it still has the same chances of spawning, unless we've had some absolute RNG (bear in mind I've probably had thousands of rounds observed / played with this code in the game and never seen it spawn prior to these last 2 weeks)

From a player standpoint, it's not fun for a lot of the players, it derails the round to the point of the shuttle being called 20 minutes at the very most after this thing being found, and in all 3 rounds I believe it derailed into People VS Skeletons, but the skeletons can't kill people and I know a few have been caught up in this shit, especially when silicons get orders to kill all skeletons and kill the ones who aren't doing anything (rather than the ones running around dooting people which would be legit)

From an admin standpoint, although I've not adminned any of the 3 rounds it has occured in, it's an awkward situation, someone changing your race against your will is usually grounds for killing them, that's pretty clear, so attacking / killing people trying to convert you is legit, I don't think any admin is going to have a problem with that, but once converted, you cannot kill the other skeletons, and a lot of people turned into skeletons can get caught up in this. And how fun is it to be turned into a skeleton against your will, and then killed by someone who sees skeleton = valid. We have enough team antags already, it'd be a shame to remove this entirely because it's a good to have different things sometimes but at the moment it's happened too often to be fun and it's too disruptive to the round as it stands, so I'd prefer some code change to make it less disruptive (I know this is policy not code and this thread has no bearing on the code but I wanted to make my point)

[LeekiLoku]

Personally I think its fine, but I played on terry like couple days ago and got converted then like 5 minutes later I converted HoS and got lethalled for it. Ahelped it and didnt know it follows escalation. Personally if you get hit with it and want to lethal them for it do it, dont change the rules behind this item. Your the one who hit a high priority person such as HoS or captain.

[NecromancerAnne]

I'm pretty sure forced race changes allow you to valid the person who does it. If the skeleton flavour text suggests otherwise, maybe that should be changed. These aren't antagonists, they're just people utilizing a force race change mechanic. You know, you typical mostly nuisance level grief.

Beyond the flavour text issue, does this really need its own policy?

[Armhulen]

I'm pretty sure forced race changes allow you to valid the person who does it. If the skeleton flavour text suggests otherwise, maybe that should be changed. These aren't antagonists, they're just people utilizing a force race change mechanic. You know, you typical mostly nuisance level grief.

Beyond the flavour text issue, does this really need its own policy?

Exactly what I'm saying. The idea that a Nonantag can convert people and they're not allowed to attack back is wrong

[MooCow12]

I'm pretty sure forced race changes allow you to valid the person who does it. If the skeleton flavour text suggests otherwise, maybe that should be changed. These aren't antagonists, they're just people utilizing a force race change mechanic. You know, you typical mostly nuisance level grief.

Beyond the flavour text issue, does this really need its own policy?

I ahelped over the flavor text when san was headmin and it got forwarded to him from trexter i think, he said I had to not retaliate because of it (But he didn`t like that the flavor text was a thing)




Its kinda funny how flavor text on a spooky instrument that someone added is giving even headmins nightmares, thank goodness the codebase is separate from the administration or we wouldnt be getting these night terrors /s

[MooCow12]

So im just gonna repeat the current situation, if someone starts converting you to skeleton you have a very short window to retaliate, because its both brainwash and species transformation you can definitely over escalate because that is the only viable path you can take when youre only given 2-3 seconds to react, ive killed a small group of skeletons when they tried to convert me and ill do it again in a heartbeat.


The other problem is its ambiguous if you can help / retaliate for other people who are getting converted by skeleton. Because of this ambiguous case that seems to scare everyone from acting, skeleton transformation will always have a numbers advantage, you can see a single dude with a spectral trumpet going around medbay and converting the people that doctors are working on into skeletons while they cant act, doctors dont know or dont care if they can do anything about it, nobody does so nothing happens.

[NecromancerAnne]

So I've discovered where you get the spectral instrument, which I was pretty sure was neither a maint loot drop OR anything beyond an admin meme inclusion.

This pr added it to the birthday party ruin. https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/73924

Could literally anyone please tell MMMiracles to not add an administrator item to lavaland ruins that might cause policy issues? Thank you.

As a side note, I had a very good time turning people into skeletons today consensually.

[Jacquerel]

So I've discovered where you get the spectral instrument, which I was pretty sure was neither a maint loot drop OR anything beyond an admin meme inclusion.

This pr added it to the birthday party ruin. https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/73924

Could literally anyone please tell MMMiracles to not add an administrator item to lavaland ruins that might cause policy issues? Thank you.

Good sleuthing, although I suspect (as has happened before) this is simply a matter of someone seeing an intriguing typepath and not double checking what it is rather than an intentional admin item insertion.
It IS still maintenance loot, but won't appear thrice in one week.

[conrad]

Thank you Jacquerel, Fikou and NecromancerAnne for flagging this and getting it solved so soon. Indeed, with this merged we revert to what it was before where finding the spooky stuff in maints is just a rare treat, almost like an event.

I'll leave this open, but I feel that discussing this is now moot, since the root of the issue is solved.

Thanks again!

[TypicalRig]

Thank you Jacquerel, Fikou and NecromancerAnne for flagging this and getting it solved so soon. Indeed, with this merged we revert to what it was before where finding the spooky stuff in maints is just a rare treat, almost like an event.

I'll leave this open, but I feel that discussing this is now moot, since the root of the issue is solved.

Thanks again!

The root of the issue isn't solved though, as it still exists as a rare spawn in maint. It was only the lavaland one that was removed. There would still be an admin related stress on what to do in these kinds of scenarios if it rolled, and we need a concrete ruling on how to handle it. The PR that would actually solve the issue is https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/74720, which hasn't been merged.

[conrad]

Thank you Jacquerel, Fikou and NecromancerAnne for flagging this and getting it solved so soon. Indeed, with this merged we revert to what it was before where finding the spooky stuff in maints is just a rare treat, almost like an event.

I'll leave this open, but I feel that discussing this is now moot, since the root of the issue is solved.

Thanks again!

The root of the issue isn't solved though, as it still exists as a rare spawn in maint. It was only the lavaland one that was removed. There would still be an admin related stress on what to do in these kinds of scenarios if it rolled, and we need a concrete ruling on how to handle it. The PR that would actually solve the issue is https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/74720, which hasn't been merged.

What I have heard, from admins and players I asked about the subject, is that in years of playing they have never seen this item.

And, in the last two weeks while I've been adminning, I've seen it three times.

The issue was the item appearing every round and causing a disturbance. Watermelon crunched the numbers and it seems to be rare enough that it stops being a problem and becomes an event (just like it's supposed to be in Halloween).

I think we're good.