(MRP) Disallow brain removal of heretic sacrifices.

[carshalash]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Apparently, people have found out that they can just debrain victims before doing the funny ritual to sacrifice them. After this occurs, they will RR the victim/their remains as they have gotten their point.

Maximizing the number of players you can remove from the round is very against the spirit of heretic as it is, as well as the MRP rules as a whole. For some reason these actions aren't against the rules, can we please amend this?

[CMDR_Gungnir]

If I'm a Heretic, I wouldn't want my sacrifice to be able to out me early on. There's not much in the way of stopping players from doing just that outside of hoping that they failed the minigame and reappeared somewhere hidden.

It's specifically against the rules, which I'd wager is a pretty effective way of stopping it.

There's no rulings on the main rules page, MRP rules, or the headmin rulings page regarding sacrifices calling out the heretic nor can I find any ruling here. Maybe I'm bad at research, but it seems there's no rule against heretic call outs post-sacrifice.

It's in-game. After you come back from the shadow realm, you get text that says you can't remember what happened, only that you remember "the hands".

Of course once they see you with a focus, or your wanted status “heretic,” or read any comms callouts, they’re allowed to “re-learn” you’re a heretic and then act on that info (which is why I say the decap sac is useful for sec and command).

You know who else could do that? Literally anyone on the station. But the person who you sac'd is less likely to because of the trauma.

Which means if you don't want Sec or anyone else to try and kill you, you go stealthy. And only go Loud if you're caught or you think you can kill everyone who tries to stop you. Literally nothing has changed for you, whether the sacrifice comes back to the station alive, or gets gibbed. But it means someone else gets to not just sit on their thumb in deadchat, and now has a new lens to roleplay through.

“Literally anyone on the station” probably don’t care as much about you as the guy that you just brutally murdered and struck with a permanent brain trauma! The trauma is made irrelevant by psicodine anyway.

Really I see no reason to willingly resurrect sec/command targets and thus create another individual you’ll inevitably encounter or have to fight later on, either after ascension or while making sacs. There’s nothing worse than sparing someone so they ”have a new lens to roleplay through” or “to be a nice guy” and then have them eventually fuck you over 20 minutes later. You are an antagonist, it’s fine to act like an antagonist and be a bit of a selfish asshole in how you play!

Iunno man, sounds like you care more about some funny green text more than you do about being interesting. Rule 10 applies to antags, too. Sometimes you'll just lose. Don't go into it expecting to win, go into it expecting to make the game more fun by being that driving force for people. That's the secret to antagging.

But the thing is? That driving force doesn't matter to the people who are just out of the game for the round, because they don't get to interact with it.

The thing you're not mentioning is that your first sacrifice automatically makes you loud unless they both fail the minigame AND their body isn't found. Heretics by the very game mechanics are loud both through their sacrifices being loud and the rifts they tap usually outing their identity.

I suppose I should put it this way then: In what way is it different to debrain a sacrifice versus fullstrip them? Either way they're likely round removed unless they win the minigame, and the aheal function at the start of said minigame works... Questionably.

Heretics are also loud through the very nature of grabbing rifts showing that they exist in the round at all. Much like...almost anything a progtot does. Those posters? Damn, I guess they're loud.

I've honestly never lost the minigame before, and I'm on like, 250 ping. But if that's the case, then it is what it is. Someone might find the body eventually. That's a lot better than the brain being hidden in some locker in deep maint, if anything.

[sinfulbliss]

Iunno man, sounds like you care more about some funny green text more than you do about being interesting. Rule 10 applies to antags, too. Sometimes you'll just lose. Don't go into it expecting to win, go into it expecting to make the game more fun by being that driving force for people. That's the secret to antagging.

I think we aren't gonna agree because you play MRP and I play LRP. On LRP validhunting is allowed so you have to play more conservatively and more optimally as antag. You are valid to everyone on sight so if your "heretic RP invitation" fails it might just mean you're RR'd. So yeah if it's between preserving someone's life so they can validhunt me later as antag or just RR'ing them, I am gonna choose to RR them every time.

You don't get to be a driving force if you get caught 5 minutes in and left dead in the morgue! So impacting the round and making the game more fun as antag on LRP necessarily involves playing at least somewhat optimally to preserve yourself. This simply isn't a factor you have to worry about as much on Manuel.

Hell if there's no sec people literally aren't even allowed to interfere with you on MRP unless you're like ganking their coworker in front of them. So of course you are going to have way more freedom and wiggle room to make sub-optimal decisions and risk yourself in the name of the story and RP.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Iunno man, sounds like you care more about some funny green text more than you do about being interesting. Rule 10 applies to antags, too. Sometimes you'll just lose. Don't go into it expecting to win, go into it expecting to make the game more fun by being that driving force for people. That's the secret to antagging.

I think we aren't gonna agree because you play MRP and I play LRP. On LRP validhunting is allowed so you have to play more conservatively and more optimally as antag. You are valid to everyone on sight so if your "heretic RP invitation" fails it might just mean you're RR'd. So yeah if it's between preserving someone's life so they can validhunt me later as antag or just RR'ing them, I am gonna choose to RR them every time.

You don't get to be a driving force if you get caught 5 minutes in and left dead in the morgue! So impacting the round and making the game more fun as antag on LRP necessarily involves playing at least somewhat optimally to preserve yourself. This simply isn't a factor you have to worry about as much on Manuel.

Hell if there's no sec people literally aren't even allowed to interfere with you on MRP unless you're like ganking their coworker in front of them. So of course you are going to have way more freedom and wiggle room to make sub-optimal decisions and risk yourself in the name of the story and RP.

And this is an MRP policy thread.

But also, if validhunting is allowed anyway, what's the difference between someone who you sacrificed coming for revenge because they were told "[X] Bad! Heretic!" and just...anyone else? That's not a like, counterpoint or anything, just a question because I am curious to understand.

[sinfulbliss]

Iunno man, sounds like you care more about some funny green text more than you do about being interesting. Rule 10 applies to antags, too. Sometimes you'll just lose. Don't go into it expecting to win, go into it expecting to make the game more fun by being that driving force for people. That's the secret to antagging.

I think we aren't gonna agree because you play MRP and I play LRP. On LRP validhunting is allowed so you have to play more conservatively and more optimally as antag. You are valid to everyone on sight so if your "heretic RP invitation" fails it might just mean you're RR'd. So yeah if it's between preserving someone's life so they can validhunt me later as antag or just RR'ing them, I am gonna choose to RR them every time.

You don't get to be a driving force if you get caught 5 minutes in and left dead in the morgue! So impacting the round and making the game more fun as antag on LRP necessarily involves playing at least somewhat optimally to preserve yourself. This simply isn't a factor you have to worry about as much on Manuel.

Hell if there's no sec people literally aren't even allowed to interfere with you on MRP unless you're like ganking their coworker in front of them. So of course you are going to have way more freedom and wiggle room to make sub-optimal decisions and risk yourself in the name of the story and RP.

And this is an MRP policy thread.

Even for MRP there is too much utility involved in getting the organs from your sac corpses to ban RR, and I believe it's a better way to roleplay as a heretic than some nerd that collects cybernetic organs and monkey cubes for their rituals. It's like drinking blood from blood packs instead of from humans as a vampire. Or using blood grenades to fuel blood rites as cult instead of human blood. Or asking someone if you can steal her eyes then helping her replace them as a traitor. It's against the flavor of the antag and ruins the immersion.

But also, if validhunting is allowed anyway, what's the difference between someone who you sacrificed coming for revenge because they were told "[X] Bad! Heretic!" and just...anyone else? That's not a like, counterpoint or anything, just a question because I am curious to understand.

Because people who you sacced have more incentive to get revenge since you fucked their round rather than some random assistant looking through maint. It's the exact reason the flavortext+trauma was added, because otherwise sacs would just call you out and then hunt you. There's a vindictive incentive that doesn't exist for your average joe.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Iunno man, sounds like you care more about some funny green text more than you do about being interesting. Rule 10 applies to antags, too. Sometimes you'll just lose. Don't go into it expecting to win, go into it expecting to make the game more fun by being that driving force for people. That's the secret to antagging.

I think we aren't gonna agree because you play MRP and I play LRP. On LRP validhunting is allowed so you have to play more conservatively and more optimally as antag. You are valid to everyone on sight so if your "heretic RP invitation" fails it might just mean you're RR'd. So yeah if it's between preserving someone's life so they can validhunt me later as antag or just RR'ing them, I am gonna choose to RR them every time.

You don't get to be a driving force if you get caught 5 minutes in and left dead in the morgue! So impacting the round and making the game more fun as antag on LRP necessarily involves playing at least somewhat optimally to preserve yourself. This simply isn't a factor you have to worry about as much on Manuel.

Hell if there's no sec people literally aren't even allowed to interfere with you on MRP unless you're like ganking their coworker in front of them. So of course you are going to have way more freedom and wiggle room to make sub-optimal decisions and risk yourself in the name of the story and RP.

And this is an MRP policy thread.

Even for MRP there is too much utility involved in getting the organs from your sac corpses to ban RR, and I believe it's a better way to roleplay as a heretic than some nerd that collects cybernetic organs and monkey cubes for their rituals. It's like drinking blood from blood packs instead of from humans as a vampire. Or using blood grenades to fuel blood rites as cult instead of human blood. Or asking someone if you can steal her eyes then helping her replace them as a traitor. It's against the flavor of the antag and ruins the immersion.

There's a difference between "Organs are valuable" utility, or the flavour you want to go for with your roleplay, and "I need to remove the brain because otherwise I might not get the funky green letters". I don't mind if it's the former (though preferably don't outright RR them. Disembowel them for their organs, sure. That's fine, they can still be revived, but going out of your way to flatly ensure the brain is hidden is still pretty lame), it's just the latter I really have an issue with personally.

But also, if validhunting is allowed anyway, what's the difference between someone who you sacrificed coming for revenge because they were told "[X] Bad! Heretic!" and just...anyone else? That's not a like, counterpoint or anything, just a question because I am curious to understand.

Because people who you sacced have more incentive to get revenge since you fucked their round rather than some random assistant looking through maint. It's the exact reason the flavortext+trauma was added, because otherwise sacs would just call you out and then hunt you. There's a vindictive incentive that doesn't exist for your average joe.

That's totally fair. Does it really change much though other than being a person who is DEFINITELY coming after you, rather than "Ehh, the Roboticist will probably just vibe in Robotics, maybe"?

[TheFinalPotato]

I don't get why round removal is such a bad thing, enough to ban the tactic like is suggested here.
Like, it's ok to get round removed, good for the game (not to mention the vibes) even since it keeps rounds from dragging too long if it happens consistently. I get it if we aren't hitting that threshold, but still like, especially if there are mechanics tied into it trying to ban it outright seems silly (I might be wrong about this I haven't played around antags since pre heretic).

Pretending Not ManuelTM is a high octane short round bulletfest is frankly silly. Not ManuelTM servers hit consistently slightly below 90 min (codebase target), Manuel hits consistently above. Last few days terry has been hitting WAYYY above, nearing peak manuel roundlengths, and not dropping below 90. The two groups hit sub 45 min about as consistently as each other.

Two obviously aren't the same, and I guess I'm not really arguing all points here, but they are comparable and some of the rhetorical arguments you all are using really rub me wrong.

[Screemonster]

Iunno man, sounds like you care more about some funny green text more than you do about being interesting.

I mean, you could level that sentiment at people who get mad at round removal too.
If the antags aren't a threat of ending your round... what's the fucking point of having them at all then?
If you know the antag isn't allowed to debrain, gib, or otherwise round remove you, then why would you care about them? Why be worried at all?
Note that I'm not saying that everything has to be a complete bloodbath here, but disallowing the possibility of it is a surefire way to ensure that rounds being interesting will never happen again.

[BrianBackslide]

Death is currently a slap on the wrist. You don't have to care about the well-being of your character and I believe that degenerates the quality of RP. Knowing full well that the antag cannot end you means you can throw yourself at them with reckless abandon. If there's no tension and threat, then antags get neutered. They NEED that tension to not just get dogpiled on LRP or MRP.

Let the heretics cook! Let them debrain and gib and husk! Dying is part of the story of the round and requiring that your character can always comes back is disrespectful to that story.

[Timberpoes]

Every time people want to restrict antags on MRP, the same argument comes up that "dead players can't interact with the shift".

I disagree, and I'll explain why. Their death interacts with the shift indirectly. Surviving any round is an accomplishment, not a divine right. When the shift's population starts vanishing one by one, we're at peak SS13. Each death weakens the crew, short-staffs departments, contributes to the story of the shift. Investigations are more than just "revive and ask whodunnit". Dead men tell no tales, but their remains tell a story in their own right and hiding those remains tells another story still.

Antags are supposed to be able to actually drive the shift forward to its conclusion. Permanently removing players from the shift progresses that goal in a consequential way. It contributes to the atmosphere of tgstation's brand of SS13. And permanent death is one of the cornerstones of making the time spent living that bit more valuable, and the shifts you do survive that bit more memorable.

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Timberpoes:
The game is designed around the idea that sometimes you die and can't come back. Antags are supposed to be scary, to be able to present some sort of threat. It's what separates us from Habbo Hotel or Club Penguin.
The fear that you may die and could possibly miss out on the rest of the shift is part of what makes our brand of SS13 so kickass, even on MRP.

Kieth4:
I'm honestly fine with that, I do not think that mrp antagonists should be so sanitised.