Are male nipples in paintings permitted and if not, should they be?

[Cadunkus]

I made a painting of my SS13 character shirtless and uploaded it to the archive (seeing as there are numerous paintings of busty anime girls and bikini-clad felinids, not to mention the countless erotica novels in the library and the plentiful examples of raunchy non-pornographic content coded directly into the game (sexy clown and mime costumes, leather BDSM outfit, the strip clubs in maints on Birdshot and Pubby, that one line beepsky has, etc.) my painting is fairly tame by comparison.)

It remained in the archive for quite a while but was recently removed without any notice or message to me. I consulted the official Tg discord server in multiple channels and the only answer I really got was that nobody knew who removed it or why.

So with no reason why it was removed, I could only conclude that either:
1. Some idiot removed it because they mistook a guy named "Matty" for a woman.
2. Some idiot hates pixel art of shirtless men.
I painstakingly repainted it and added it back to the archive (faster than the original painting since I had a screenshot for reference but it still took a solid 20-30 minutes.)

The very next round someone was already carrying it around and whining that it's too lewd and that they were going to "appeal to the gods to get it removed" so I got a message from an admin asking me to not repaint it if it was already removed. I explained my situation that I had received no notice that my painting was taken down and consulting discord got me nowhere. It only seemed to end with the idea that nipples shouldn't be in art even if they're male nipples to which I disagree. Discussing it further on the discord revealed that another admin actually did see my painting multiple times ingame and thought it was perfectly fine not to mention when I shared it in #art-general for the first time, nobody had any issues with it.

Here's the original picture (all four pixels of the lascivious male nipples censored for your safety)


And here's the remake


I would really NOT like to have to make it a third time or have to remake it with a bikini top.

So basically are male nipples in paintings allowed in-game despite being allowed on the official tg/Station discord server?

If not, why? What Sherlockian reasoning do you have?

[Timberpoes]

I ran a grep against Manuel's logs on the server boxes.

.\round-208203\game.log.gz:[2023-06-14 08:49:21.403] ADMIN: Bmon/(Jordan Reay) has deleted a persistent painting made by cadunkus.
.\round-208364\game.log.gz:[2023-06-16 19:17:25.158] GAME-COMPAT: ADMIN: Bmon/(Jordan Reay) has deleted a persistent painting made by cadunkus.

Reading into the ASAY logs, it was deleted the first time because it has tits.

It was deleted the second time because it has tits and is ambiguous and the admin that deleted it (Bmon) bwoinked you to talk about it, suggested you open a complaint and we find ourselves here in policy central instead. Which is probably the best place to be.

Now, tits don't offend me, so I probably wouldn't have deleted it myself.

Would I put my headmin weight behind a ruling allowing tits on paintings or paintings of tits?

Only if they were attached to a foxgirl or foxgirlguy.

[Farquaar]

Which collection did you add it to? Public, Secure, or Private?

[Vekter]

I don't see an issue with it, I just don't know if we should have any kind of spicy paintings at all.

I don't remember what our decision was on erotic content in library books, but I think this should mirror that, for the most part. If I could personally choose, I don't think I'd permit anything suggestive in paintings just because this really isn't the place for that kind of thing, but we need to be consistent between the two, so the appropriate answer is "whatever we decided then".

[Cadunkus]

Which collection did you add it to? Public, Secure, or Private?

The painting? I just hung it up on a library frame when I was done so it gets added to the archive.

[Farquaar]

Which collection did you add it to? Public, Secure, or Private?

The painting? I just hung it up on a library frame when I was done so it gets added to the archive.

Yeah, but your art goes into one of three different three collections depending on which frames you put it in. Public locations are usually numerous and out in the open, secure locations are fewer in number usually behind glass, and private locations are usually located in the curator's office, a discreet location, or in the case of the late PubbyStation, a separate risqué section off of the main gallery.

The collection you place your painting in affects where it will spawn in subsequent rounds. There's no policy precedent on this matter since it's not a well-known feature, but I wanted to ask just in case it might be considered in the ruling.

[MooCow12]

Would I put my headmin weight behind a ruling allowing tits on paintings or paintings of tits?

Only if they were attached to a foxgirl or foxgirlguy.

You all have your objective, complete it before the end of this headmin term.

[BrolyButterfingers]

I don't see an issue with it, I just don't know if we should have any kind of spicy paintings at all.

I don't remember what our decision was on erotic content in library books, but I think this should mirror that, for the most part. If I could personally choose, I don't think I'd permit anything suggestive in paintings just because this really isn't the place for that kind of thing, but we need to be consistent between the two, so the appropriate answer is "whatever we decided then".

One (very edge case) thing to consider is that /tg/station happens to more or less align with Twitch/YouTube/Kick/etc TOS in terms of content allowances and allowing this painting would definitely affect that.

Also I just don't wanna walk around in a space station and see titty paintings imma be real.

[Cadunkus]

Which collection did you add it to? Public, Secure, or Private?

The painting? I just hung it up on a library frame when I was done so it gets added to the archive.

Yeah, but your art goes into one of three different three collections depending on which frames you put it in. Public locations are usually numerous and out in the open, secure locations are fewer in number usually behind glass, and private locations are usually located in the curator's office, a discreet location, or in the case of the late PubbyStation, a separate risqué section off of the main gallery.

The collection you place your painting in affects where it will spawn in subsequent rounds. There's no policy precedent on this matter since it's not a well-known feature, but I wanted to ask just in case it might be considered in the ruling.

Huh I didn't know that. I don't remember where it was the first time around but the second one was one of the frames behind glass.

[sinfulbliss]

pretty ambiguous honestly but I wouldn’t consider it bad enough to remove tbh, 18+ server. also whoever dragged it around intentionally despite hating it so much as to “report it to the gods” (failRP to say this btw) is a pussy and should be daybanned for ock ick

[carshalash]

The nipple ruling is pro lizard...

[Itseasytosee2me]

I personally am cool with whatever as long as there isn't a double standard between male and female presenting nipple

[sinfulbliss]

I personally am cool with whatever as long as there isn't a double standard between male and female presenting nipple

One would get you arrested, the other wouldn't where I'm from. So for better or worse I think one is just regarded as more lewd, which could be grounds to allow one and not the other.

I think you gotta realize the sort of artwork people would be drawing and displaying if full on titties got allowed. I don't really care personally but it's probably a consideration.

[Archie700]

I personally am cool with whatever as long as there isn't a double standard between male and female presenting nipple

I think the double standard is quite possibly unavoidable for this as many jurisdictions censor women's breasts while men's breast are considered "tasteful nudity" for kids.
Though I believe the case of this painting is because the subject looks like a woman as far as pixels would allow.

[The Wrench]

Eh. Free the nipple. We’re an 18+ community.

[Lacran]

I'm really struggling to believe this is being done in good faith, the character looks androgynous enough to be either gender. You discussing a bikini as a solution doesn't lend any more confidence that you are trying to navigate rule 8 standards in a genuine way.

[Vekter]

I'm really struggling to believe this is being done in good faith, the character looks androgynous enough to be either gender. You discussing a bikini as a solution doesn't lend any more confidence that you are trying to navigate rule 8 standards in a genuine way.

8. Erotic/creepy stuff is not allowed.

No form of erotic roleplay is allowed on the servers, including things that could be construed as sexual by unwilling participants.

This isn't rule 8, but it's rule 8 -adjacent-. Might need to be made a precedent.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Am I allowed to paint male nipples onto female breasts?

[TheFinalPotato]

Porn is not rule 8. we have porn in the library, s not violating rule 8.

Rule 8 is for shitcanning people who are being creepy, not killing anything remotely sexual.
The trouble we've had with this sort of thing in the past is people seeing it at random, which can be... poorly timed/uncomfortable. At least how I understood it. I don't see how this issue applies to paintings.

[Farquaar]

The trouble we've had with this sort of thing in the past is people seeing it at random, which can be... poorly timed/uncomfortable.

Which is why I would suggest that pornographic paintings are to be allowed, they should be restricted to the private collection only. Similar to how smut should be properly categorized in the adult section of the library.

[Time-Green]

tbf naked spaceman are anatomically correct and there's no rules against running around naked

[oranges]

anyone who is offended by the porn rendered in the 8 pixels that paintings have to show in the non detailed view must have a very active imagination.

[The Wrench]

Stating it for the people in the back. We are an 18+ community, either learn to cope and deal with the anatomical nature of the human body or we can go full goon and remove the 18+ catagory.

[MrrFiish]

I will say, seeing it randomly in a hallway both me and Bmon thought that this would be a rule 8 break, hence the Asay logs showing us talking about it. Honestly if it gets ruled that it's fine then I don't really care I just want to know how I should rule on stuff like this and if it is allowed or not, I'm okay whichever way the rules lean I just don't know which side the rules are protecting.

[TheBibleMelts]

let the nips run free, that's my official opinion.

[Bmon]

This was first brought to my attention by another admin who was in-game at the time, they notified me since I was observing the round and I thought it'd be best to err on the side of caution and remove it since titty paintings have been removed from the library before. A few days later, I saw the exact same painting being dragged around by a few players, seemingly reuploaded. That's when I removed it again and told Cadunkus not to re-add it back to the library.

Personally, I don't really care, I just am here to make sure everyone's having a fun time on TG.

[Ezel]

if you gonna make a problem about 2-4 pizels then you might ban anyone who walks around naked, put some clothes on bro ur nipples are showing(its not like we post the barechested naked tf2 characters in discord all the time anyways and theres no issue about that)

[Timberpoes]

Nipplegate.

[kieth4]

I'm going to be real 100% when I became headmin this was not the kinda stuff I had expected to be discussing.

[TypicalRig]

I'm going to be real 100% when I became headmin this was not the kinda stuff I had expected to be discussing.

Something something peanut thread something something local headmin cowardly dodges giving up official stance on titty art something something...

[Screemonster]

I don't remember what our decision was on erotic content in library books, but I think this should mirror that, for the most part. If I could personally choose, I don't think I'd permit anything suggestive in paintings just because this really isn't the place for that kind of thing, but we need to be consistent between the two, so the appropriate answer is "whatever we decided then".

An argument could be made that rulings on images should be harsher than those on text on the basis of the "family members glancing over and seeing your screen" scenario - examining a painting and getting a view of a big, veiny cock would be a lot more noticeable to someone glancing over your shoulder at your monitor from ten feet away than, say, the words "big, veiny cock" rendered in 10pt text in the middle of a paragraph.

Even communities that allow NSFW will often only allow nsfw images in specific channels regardless of how raunchy the text is allowed to get for this specific reason - it takes a far more dedicated shoulder-surfer to see something unfortunate in text than it does to catch a glance of an unpleasant image (and if they're going that far then fuck 'em, they get what they deserve for reading over someone's shoulder)

You'll still get people who try to argue shit like "oh you can't technically see a penis because the other guy's leg is in the way so it's sfw" though which is why this image exists

[Cobby]

We aren’t an 18+ community we don’t actually vet in any way for minors and we know of people that have played while underaged. Headmins included ofc. I mean we say we are and we ban people who can’t read but we’ve explicitly let ppl play underaged in the past and we all know people who play(ed) while below 18.

Idc about male nipples but the example image looks a bit sus especially when the compromise would be to put a bikini top on them. No need for any of that there’s a million other subjects to draw and avoids any scenario where someone gets put in an awkward situation when the window pops up

[Cadunkus]

Honestly I just want my painting added again. It's significantly less sus than all the big tiddy anime girls in the archive (of which there are quite a number) or the burly lizards (which there are quite a few all painted by the same guy) since it's just a reclining shirtless twink. The only people who have legit had a problem with it were very immature about it.

I don't know what planet you live on where men's nipples is too lewd and everything else I've mentioned isn't.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

We aren’t an 18+ community we don’t actually vet in any way for minors

Neither does literally anywhere else on the internet, to be fair.

Should we really be basing all of our decisions around people who are breaking the rules? Otherwise, what's the point of the rule?

[PengisBungholius]

We atleast pretend to be an 18+ community, so long as it's not overtly pornographic there's no need to censor stuff. If you can tell it's lewd, it's probably too lewd as minimum, etc. etc.

I'm going to be real 100% when I became headmin this was not the kinda stuff I had expected to be discussing.

two of these in one term, huh...

[Vekter]

Maybe we take the new Tumblr route? As long as it's not explicitly sexual (ie "no depicting sexual acts") it's fine? T&A are allowed but no art of someone getting off.

[Epoc]

This is, frankly, a very American thing to be upset over.

This is a game where you can explode into wet meat cubes and leave behind a bloody heap of organs by putting an air tank in your mouth, or behead somebody with a chainsaw.
Those are both much more provocative images than androgynous nipples rendered in 23x19 resolution.
Let's not forget that you can also at any point strip down to nothing and be bare-fucking-naked. Nobody ever brings that up because there are clear lines between nudity and pornography.

What I'm more curious about is why stuff like this can be wordlessly deleted without any prior discussion.

[Vekter]

This is, frankly, a very American thing to be upset over.

This is a game where you can explode into wet meat cubes and leave behind a bloody heap of organs by putting an air tank in your mouth, or behead somebody with a chainsaw.
Those are both much more provocative images than androgynous nipples rendered in 23x19 resolution.
Let's not forget that you can also at any point strip down to nothing and be bare-fucking-naked. Nobody ever brings that up because there are clear lines between nudity and pornography.

What I'm more curious about is why stuff like this can be wordlessly deleted without any prior discussion.

This is my issue with it, though it's important to note that it's obvious it would be an American thing to be upset over when the vast majority of players and administrators here are from America.

Regardless, I think it's goofy to be this upset about something "adult themed" and not be concerned whatsoever about the fact that I can press three buttons and turn you into a meat milkshake. Weird fuckin' priorities.

[sinfulbliss]

As an aside, the sprinters did something terrible with nipples. Have you noticed they just straight up removed tits from in-game sprites? Helen Weinstein will never be the same.

On-topic: I agree with Epoc.

[Lacran]

This is, frankly, a very American thing to be upset over.

I think most English speaking cultures would have an issue here.

I'm from New Zealand and I don't really feel comfortable with it mainly because the character looks like a chick in the painting.

I just don't really think erotic content of any kind belongs here though. I don't trust the community enough around that stuff especially with how many grooming dramas we've had.

I'm also a millennial so it might be a generational thing

[Unsane]

They removed one of my painting too

[Timberpoes]

When I asked MSO about hosting 32x32 nips, he responded:

the line put up by our current data center is "graphical content designed primarily for sexual gratification"

I don't really mind the 32x32 nudity. Art plus artistic expression comes in many forms, as long as they're not pictures of sex scenes or gratuitious genitalia or stuff, I think we shouldn't kill off tasteful and artistic nudity in general. We sanitise language and speech enough, I don't see a necessity to sanitise art and paintings too hard beyond obvious hate symbols and bigoted imagery.

[oranges]

will the admin who deleted a painting be sanctioned?

[Vekter]

When I asked MSO about hosting 32x32 nips, he responded:

the line put up by our current data center is "graphical content designed primarily for sexual gratification"

I don't really mind the 32x32 nudity. Art plus artistic expression comes in many forms, as long as they're not pictures of sex scenes or gratuitious genitalia or stuff, I think we shouldn't kill off tasteful and artistic nudity in general. We sanitise language and speech enough, I don't see a necessity to sanitise art and paintings too hard beyond obvious hate symbols and bigoted imagery.

Someone called that quote puritanical, I don't think I agree? The general idea there is that it shouldn't be "graphic", ie "hardcore sex or pornography".

Again, I like how Tumblr is handling NSFW stuff right now - if it's relatively tame, something like a pin-up or something you'd find in a nudie mag, it's okay. Anything beyond that isn't.

[Cadunkus]

Absolutely fantastic how this got a ton of discussion and absolutely nothing was gained out of it. Just let me paint twinks, damn it.

[Vekter]

Absolutely fantastic how this got a ton of discussion and absolutely nothing was gained out of it. Just let me paint twinks, damn it.

I don't know if you've noticed, but the headmins haven't ruled on anything since the 25th and that was only because it was a really easy one.

Last I remember Misdoubtful has been busy with IRL issues so that's likely giving them pause on handling stuff like this. Give them time, it'll be addressed.

[Timberpoes]

Ned has a temporary link to view pictures in the gallery:
https://tender-keller-12c12a.netlify.app

I know it looks like a phishing link and the admin team are gonna be rolling their eyes after I just intentionally clicked on a phishing link that got a Discord user banned to prove it was a harmless rickroll and now I'm posting this random link but the foxgirl and foxguygirl agenda is too real to be censored.

It is actually a work in progress for something Ned used to host on Statbus.

He's asked us to link it so that people can see what kind of paintings there are and stuff and things for a more informed opinion.

I am, as always, on team free nipple.

[Atlanta-Ned]

Ned has a temporary link to view pictures in the gallery:
https://tender-keller-12c12a.netlify.app

I know it looks like a phishing link and the admin team are gonna be rolling their eyes after I just intentionally clicked on a phishing link that got a Discord user banned to prove it was a harmless rickroll and now I'm posting this random link but the foxgirl and foxguygirl agenda is too real to be censored.

It is actually a work in progress for something Ned used to host on Statbus.

He's asked us to link it so that people can see what kind of paintings there are and stuff and things for a more informed opinion.

I am, as always, on team free nipple.

Shenanigan-free source code: https://github.com/nfreader/tg-gallery2

[Super Aggro Crag]

eradicate the nipples

[Yulice]

Free the Nipple