Fugitives Valid!!! or not

[Hoolny]

I am presented with a dilemma that I can't find an answer to that has to do with Fugitives validity according to escalation policy.

In a Recent Round, ID 209420

A Fugitive by the name of Kevin Hooker came into the station.

They went into the HoP office, grabbed the locker, pulled it out into the hallway, and went to get a spear. When they went back, the locker was missing.

Then, as they were walking around the hallway, they were spotted by a moth officer, who started to attempt to arrest the Fugitive under the pretense that they were partially invisible and weren't on the crew manifest.

The Fugitve started to attack the officer with the spear they had as they were stunned, until, at the end, the Moth won the battle.

After so, the Moth took the Fugitive to the captain, who promptly started to see the fugitive interrogate and heal a little.

After the conversation, the Captain Grabbed the fugitives and tossed them into space, permanently killing them for the rest of the shift.

The captain had two pieces of information: the Fugitive had committed a medium crime, petty theft, and they were not part of the crew. As far as I know, they weren't aware of them attacking the officer in retaliation for them trying to arrest them, but if we add that, then they knew they had committed a major crime of assaulting an officer.

Both of these crimes aren't capital, so they couldn't possibly have killed them under this, and I would dare to say Fugitives don't classify as antagonists.



The main problem with this follows under the Escalation Policy rules.


"If a conflict leads to violence and either participant is incapacitated, the standing participant is expected to make an effort to treat the other, unless they have reason to believe the other was an antagonist. Once treated the conflict is over; any new conflict with either individual must escalate once again. If you get into a conflict again with that individual, they may be removed permanently from the round."

The Captain had not started any conflict with the fugitive as they were brought cuffed, yet they decided to permanently kill them with no escalation whatsoever. Should this be allowed?

In my own personal opinion, since Fugitives aren't allowed to permanently kill people with no escalation, I don't think crewmembers should be allowed to kill them with no escalation, and more than that, it kind of ruins the whole bounty hunter-fugitive deal.

[GPeckman]

Then, as they were walking around the hallway, they were spotted by a moth officer, who started to attempt to arrest the Fugitive under the pretense that they were partially invisible and weren't on the crew manifest.

The Fugitve started to attack the officer with the spear they had as they were stunned, until, at the end, the Moth won the battle.

After so, the Moth took the Fugitive to the captain, who promptly started to see the fugitive interrogate and heal a little.

After the conversation, the Captain Grabbed the fugitives and tossed them into space, permanently killing them for the rest of the shift.

As the moth secoff in question, I would like to clarify that I saw him dragging the HoP locker (although he was not the one who broke into the HoP's office; It got doorjacked open way earlier). I went to check the manifest, saw he wasn't on there, and made the decision to make an arrest.

Edit: I would also like to note that I don't think throwing the fugitive out of an airlock was the right decision. I think he should've either been given an assistant ID if he was willing, or put in perma if he wasn't.

[Turbonerd]

What a stupid thread. Just try to RP instead of looking for any technicalities to round remove, and you won't get into issues. I think the whole idea of valid status is kinda dumb. The prisoner was extremely aggressive, so putting them in isolation might be possible. If someone fail RPs, ahelp them for their cringe.

[Vekter]

Maybe I'm misreading your post, but if the fugitive attacked the sec officer with a spear, that's assault of an officer, which is a major crime.

That's still not really worth a round removal, IMO.

[Hoolny]

What a stupid thread. Just try to RP instead of looking for any technicalities to round remove, and you won't get into issues. I think the whole idea of valid status is kinda dumb. The prisoner was extremely aggressive, so putting them in isolation might be possible. If someone fail RPs, ahelp them for their cringe.

I think you are confused? I was the prisoner in this situation and I was killed with NO ESCALATION whatsoever against the captain thats the whole deal, and I wasen't a prisoner "FUGITIVE" is a special role you get its a game mode where a random person spawns and they are hunted by bounty hunters

[Hoolny]

Maybe I'm misreading your post, but if the fugitive attacked the sec officer with a spear, that's assault of an officer, which is a major crime.

That's still not really worth a round removal, IMO.

The thing was the moth officer tried to arrest the fugitive out of the blue and the fugitive responded by attacking them after that they where cuffed and the captain decided to perma kill them which was not warranted

[Vekter]

Maybe I'm misreading your post, but if the fugitive attacked the sec officer with a spear, that's assault of an officer, which is a major crime.

That's still not really worth a round removal, IMO.

The thing was the moth officer tried to arrest the fugitive out of the blue and the fugitive responded by attacking them after that they where cuffed and the captain decided to perma kill them which was not warranted

It's still a valid IC crime. I'm not going back to check the logs, but even if the moth didn't say anything to him, if he attacks him back it's still assault.

[BrianBackslide]

I don't think fugitives should get metaprotections from sec where they can only be captured by fugitive hunters.

Consider from the Captain's perspective: You have an unknown person that's not on the manifest and has been doing crimes. Had they not gotten stunned and arrested, they may have killed that officer. They could be a stealth ops or perhaps a changeling from the meteor event that just got their first body. Are fugitives detain on sight? It would make sense if they were. Adding assault and attempted murder on top of that would make you valid enough.

imo it's more of a design problem with fugitives. The crew has no reason to keep the fugitive alive nor do they have a reason to work for/against them. Either way, spear an officer, get spaced seems valid enough to me.

[TypicalRig]

They're fugitives. Wouldn't it make more sense to incentivize crew capturing them all alive in perma? This could be made policy at least on Manuel. For it to work with Terry and Sybil, they'd probably have to add a coded incentive though. It'd have the plus side of adding an interesting dynamic where the crew would be at odds for wanting the fugitives alive while the hunters want them dead and the fugitives don't want to be captured. Would be better than making the crew some weird neutral "don't know what to do" territory.

[Itseasytosee2me]

I think that we should be encouraging the crew to have hostilities with fugitives.

[Fatal]

Generally fugitives are "neutral-ish" but if said fugitive is stealing shit and then attacking a moth who tries to arrest him, I'd say that's a fuck about and find out moment

Throwing them into space is a bit much perhaps but if you're not on the manifest, I'd say that voids some of your protections personally

[Ryusenshu]

i mean
its kinda tradition to throw stowaways over board ...

jokes aside, let them be valid

[DaydreamIQ]

Iirc aren't fugitives not considered full blown antags in the same way abductors are? Remove that restriction and I figure making them more valid would work. That or just leave it to the hunters most of them joined up to murder the other team as is (even if hunters are hilariously broken)

[kieth4]

The wiki has a point on this:

Please do note that you are not protected by Rule 4 as a Fugitive, as you are not a traditional antagonist. You are not allowed to kill crew members unprovoked, but if you are provoked, you are well within your rights to respond with antagonist behavior. For example, if security is helping you, stabbing them with spears would not be reasonable, and you would eat a bwoink. You are allowed to do anything to avoid capture. If security is cooperating with the Hunters, then you would be free to retaliate with force.

Security have a similar interaction with them- you can't just blast them fnr but the escalation is heavily relaxed. Witnessing them a crime is enough imo.