[MRP] Make pirates an unrestricted antag

[DaydreamIQ]

So originally pirates were a bit mixed on account of skeletons being the odd one out with the cannons that can outright kill people which usually lead to them being super valid, but now we got the interdyne pirates with straight up fungal tb among the other new ones. When the interdyne pirates were added there was basically little thought given to them having the means to tb the station immediately on mrp, which is a little annoying because as a traitor (another restricted antag for comparison) you usually need to ahelp beforehand when you wanna make a super death virus to spread among the crew.

On top of this, there's sorta the whole wonky scenario of pirates being treated as super valid and kill on sight. Despite the fact that they aren't actually allowed to be going around murdering people randomly. Which leads to most of the crew just bum rushing their ship to get free loot regardless of whether or not the pirates have attacked them yet.

So with all this taken into consideration, why not just make them unrestricted? That way there's no question on whether or not crew should be storming them, and the pirates can go full hog to get sellable goods without risking getting bwoinked in the process.

[Vekter]

I think there's some issue to be had with making them unrestricted just because it doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would they care about killing everyone when they should be caring about Stacking Paper?

The Interdyne guys having fungal TB feels like a massive mistake, but I didn't code them.

[Misdoubtful]

Honestly, they aren't unrestricted for the reasons in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=85&t=27587

In short the intention is that they try and play by their objectives and not show up to just start wiping the crew off the station because they can.

Using the tools you have available, causing chaos, getting dat loot, killing people along the way, that's all cool.

Its just that the restriction was put in place to keep something very specific from happening: pirates showing up and intentionally and specifically killing everyone with that goal purposefully in mind because someone got a ghost spawn and wanted to kill everyone.

Everything else is already kosher.

If the issue is that literally everyone is bum rushing the pirates and things don't feel proportionate or fair and said actions detract from the round, that's a rules enforcement issue.

See below:

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules

Non-security may only actively hunt global or round-ending threats.
You should not act like a vigilante if a security force is present unless you have a good in-character roleplay reason to believe a global or round-ending threat exists. Restricted antags that are not automatically global or round ending threats may still become so through their actions in the shift, the stronger your reasoning the more action you can take against them.

You can always defend yourself and others from violent antagonists.

Players that choose to act as security will be held to the same standards as security.

[CPTANT]

I think there's some issue to be had with making them unrestricted just because it doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would they care about killing everyone when they should be caring about Stacking Paper?

The Interdyne guys having fungal TB feels like a massive mistake, but I didn't code them.

Once again trying to push MRP playstyles onto the codebase.

[DaydreamIQ]

If the issue is that literally everyone is bum rushing the pirates and things don't feel proportionate or fair and said actions detract from the round, that's a rules enforcement issue.

See below:

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules

Non-security may only actively hunt global or round-ending threats.
You should not act like a vigilante if a security force is present unless you have a good in-character roleplay reason to believe a global or round-ending threat exists. Restricted antags that are not automatically global or round ending threats may still become so through their actions in the shift, the stronger your reasoning the more action you can take against them.

You can always defend yourself and others from violent antagonists.

Players that choose to act as security will be held to the same standards as security.

I think the issue lies in the fact that many people consider pirates a 'station wide threat' because skeleton pirates and ex-interdyne exist which tend to either blow holes in the station or give everyone super aids. There is undoubtedly a lack of admin enforcement on the validhunting side though, because the general consensus whenever I ask is "Ghost roles have no rights." which basically implies they wont stop players from seeking out free loot

[Vekter]

I think there's some issue to be had with making them unrestricted just because it doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would they care about killing everyone when they should be caring about Stacking Paper?

The Interdyne guys having fungal TB feels like a massive mistake, but I didn't code them.

Once again trying to push MRP playstyles onto the codebase.

Or, y'know, it could be because I think it should remain a nuke ops-only item because it's extremely lethal and I'd prefer it specifically stay as something only nukies have access to while Interdyne could have a more interesting virus to test out on the crew.

[TheBibleMelts]

+1 for the same reason as my changeling thread.

let pirates say fuck.

[nukularpower]

+1 to this from me, mostly because of the valid hunting issue - it is almost sickening to me to see 4-5 fully armed seccies storming the greytide pirate ship blasting everyone they see the second they show up. And that is aside from the whole meta "take of your mask and talk so i can see your name in the text" bullshit commonly pulled by Gaiman-types, usually immediately followed by a face full of lasers

On the topic of the interdyne pirates, I gotta say they are the worst - not because of what they do themselves (though it is obnoxious) but because of the ridiculous loot they leave behind, like an emagged chem machine and all the disease bottles and etc that is screaming for some troll assistant to come make a mess with. They really need better turrets or maybe the ship should just self-destruct once all the pirates are dead... or both of those.


edit: Regardless of restricted or unrestricted, imo SM sabotage should not be an issue. I think it was Vekter I was boinked about this with before, not sure, but I don think saying no is the right call. Firstly, even the RESTRICTED antag rules state that:

"Mass station sabotage that is likely to kill people is allowed so long as the antagonist does not take any direct and specific personal actions to maximise the bodycount beyond what the sabotage itself causes. Examples of mass station sabotage include plasma flooding, causing a supermatter delamination and spacing the station."

Again, that is under the restricted rules. So unless I am misunderstanding, those antags are explicitly allowed to delam the SM by the letter of the rule, and secondly, if you've ever played a heist game or seen such a movie, likely the very first thing you will see/do is cut the power to the place you are trying to rob - it only makes sense, and even more these days with sec lasers being so strong. I would prefer if there was a less destructive way to do it (pirate power sinks?) but it is what it is in game right now.

That said, I am fine with situational notice from admins based on the state of the round or etc - ie, "dont do this NOW cuz the engis are all already dead and there is a heretic killing the rest" is perfectly fine with me. I just dont feel it should be generically not allowed.

[Lacran]

I don't think there's much to gain from murder bone pirates.

Currently pirates are pretty weak and get their ship swarmed, which is irrelevant to murderboning.

In the situations where the crew can't or don't deal with them having them indiscriminately murder and bombard the station sounds extremely lame.

[Cobby]

If you use TB defensively its not really against kill policy, as its self defense on top of bystanders who pickup the disease. If you used a maxcap for defense and a bystander died that wouldnt offending, I think TB is similar although obviously more transmissible and a lot more accessible when you spawn with it .

Excusing all forms of free killing from all pirates because a single pirate subclass has a very wide-spreading weapon that is a bit more difficult to excuse normally seems weird though. Just make that particular interaction an exception while its included as part of their provided arsenal, or just accept that while its part of their arsenal they may use it legally (self defense for instance) and it may cause a lot more chaos than normal pirates.

Remember, that policy youre asking pirates to be an exception to is for them to forego their mechanics to just kill people for fun. If they are killing people in a way that makes sense as part of their mechanics (such as self defense or pursuing objectives), it is ALREADY a protected action by that very same policy.

[TheRex9001]

I think a good middle ground would be making DANGEROUS pirates unrestricted, pirates are already seperated into two different groups and allowing the higher threat group to be more murderbony might make it high threat, like the intent is. (Dangerous pirates are currently IRS, Dutchman(the skellies) and interdyne (virology pirates))

[DaydreamIQ]

I think a good middle ground would be making DANGEROUS pirates unrestricted, pirates are already seperated into two different groups and allowing the higher threat group to be more murderbony might make it high threat, like the intent is. (Dangerous pirates are currently IRS, Dutchman(the skellies) and interdyne (virology pirates))

This would be a really good idea, but the issue is how to easily define what is and isn't dangerous to newer players. Everyone knows the Skellies are a major threat because big cannons put holes in the station, but the IRS are just heavily armored guys and the greytide are just a LOT of dudes. That and the message for pirates being summoned is already constantly confused with the BC and hunters for some stupid reason

[TheRex9001]

I think a good middle ground would be making DANGEROUS pirates unrestricted, pirates are already seperated into two different groups and allowing the higher threat group to be more murderbony might make it high threat, like the intent is. (Dangerous pirates are currently IRS, Dutchman(the skellies) and interdyne (virology pirates))

This would be a really good idea, but the issue is how to easily define what is and isn't dangerous to newer players. Everyone knows the Skellies are a major threat because big cannons put holes in the station, but the IRS are just heavily armored guys and the greytide are just a LOT of dudes. That and the message for pirates being summoned is already constantly confused with the BC and hunters for some stupid reason

Change the midround message to "dangerous pirates" instead of "pirates", I think this might be a config change?

[Itseasytosee2me]

seems really contrived to give different pirates different policy. Just give em a thing in their flavor text that says that priorty #1 is booty and killing is ok but they have no need to actively hunt down crewmembers with no intention of taking them hostage and sending them to the space mines or whatever.

[Vekter]

I think a good middle ground would be making DANGEROUS pirates unrestricted, pirates are already seperated into two different groups and allowing the higher threat group to be more murderbony might make it high threat, like the intent is. (Dangerous pirates are currently IRS, Dutchman(the skellies) and interdyne (virology pirates))

No, this is just confusing to players. Either we give it to all of them or we don't.

[TheRex9001]

I think a good middle ground would be making DANGEROUS pirates unrestricted, pirates are already seperated into two different groups and allowing the higher threat group to be more murderbony might make it high threat, like the intent is. (Dangerous pirates are currently IRS, Dutchman(the skellies) and interdyne (virology pirates))

No, this is just confusing to players. Either we give it to all of them or we don't.

Then give it to them all, they are an openly hostile antagonist who is KoS for crew (like changeling).

[Not-Dorsidarf]

as a reminder to everyone "Unrestricted antag" doesnt mean "can go ham and blow away everyone in their path" it means "can completely ignore their objectives and just slaughter unrelated crew at random". All full antags can kill people in their way, who resist them, etc.

[DATAxPUNGED]

Can't pirates pretty much kill anyone on site already to get the credits from their IDs?

[TheBibleMelts]

+1 for the same reason as my changeling thread.

let pirates say fuck.

i would like to amend this to specific pirate types since we have added some less lethal and more lethal ones. the pirates who start with fungal tb grenades for example should be free to use them all they want, same with the pirates with a cannon. it's not fun to have gimmicky toys and be told they're mostly for decoration.

[Cobby]

This is an enforcement issue, not a rule one.

Pirates are already giga lethal antags, you literally just have to pretend youre doing the objective too. the kill policy is NOT "you can kill more than 5 people", it's "you can forego mechanics to just pick people off with no rhyme or reason because youre an antag".

I dont think either thread has actually addressed this.

[Pandarsenic]

Pirates get ruthlessly validhunted so basically anything they do is self-defense anyway

[SkeletalElite]

I don't really play on MRP but logically it does make sense for pirates to be unrestricted, yes pirates goal is to get as much money as possible, but they want to get as much money as possible as easily as possible. This is why they try to get you to pay up on the comms console and show up if you don't pay. When they show up they're going to ruthlessly slaughter and torture everyone for not paying up. It's a punishment for making their job harder.

[Cheshify]

The team has ruled that Pirates shall not be saying fuck / being made an unrestricted antagonist.

The intention of pirates is to have a hostile faction who loots valuables from the station, and take actions that further said goals.
Unrestricting them so they may team deathmatch the station actively removes what makes them a unique antagonist, since they would be more in-line with nuclear operatives (a ship that shows up and kills everyone). The goal should stay as getting dosh, and this restriction keeps Pirates on MRP as a goal-motivated antagonist that stands apart from other armed invaders. If they're taking action to make cash, then the casualties in the way of that should never be an issue, but if casualties are the goal, then admins should intervene.

In addition, non-sec crew on MRP shouldn't be instantly validing the pirates, and admins can take action against them. Let the pirates prove themselves to be global threats before they're treated like them, and let sec handle them until they're asking for help.

Cheshify - Restrict
Fikou - Restrict
TheBibleMelts - Unrestrict