Make harming a human's holoparasite/guardian as an Asimov borg human harm

[Pumpkin0]

It just feels kind of unintuitive and inconsistent that a borg can know full well that attacking this holoparasite will harm this human and will kill them if they continue, but still be allowed to attack the holoparasite as long as it's out.

From this headmin ruling from 2015. There's also the part about the human having to be treated if the holoparasite retreats, but I just think that to avoid confusion and add consistency, attacking a holoparasite which you know is connected to a human shouldn't be allowed as an Asimov borg. For a while I was kind of under the assumption that it would be human harm for an Asimov borg to attack a known human's holoparasite/guardian.

[Striders13]

yes

[kinnebian]

is this not already against the rules? its like a borg claiming they didnt shoot the human, they just pulled the trigger of a gun and the gun shot the human

[Pumpkin0]

is this not already against the rules? its like a borg claiming they didnt shoot the human, they just pulled the trigger of a gun and the gun shot the human

Strangely enough no, this is completely allowed by the headmin ruling - it's on the page and everything!

Holoparasites aren't human- a cyborg can attack the holoparasite but not the human. If the parasite recalls and the human is in critical, the borg must give him medical attention.

[kinnebian]

is this not already against the rules? its like a borg claiming they didnt shoot the human, they just pulled the trigger of a gun and the gun shot the human

Strangely enough no, this is completely allowed by the headmin ruling - it's on the page and everything!

Holoparasites aren't human- a cyborg can attack the holoparasite but not the human. If the parasite recalls and the human is in critical, the borg must give him medical attention.

Wow, thats really odd. Yeah, I hope this is changed.

[Jacquerel]

Once you attack a holoparasite a single time then you may notice it is harming a human, as such you are obligated to destroy it to prevent any further harm being done to that human by it.

[kinnebian]

Once you attack a holoparasite a single time then you may notice it is harming a human, as such you are obligated to destroy it to prevent any further harm being done to that human by it.

man, this gun is hurting the human! guess i have to empty it into the human so it cant shoot anymore

[TheLoLSwat]

Once you attack a holoparasite a single time then you may notice it is harming a human, as such you are obligated to destroy it to prevent any further harm being done to that human by it.

man, this gun is hurting the human! guess i have to empty it into the human so it cant shoot anymore

To be fair if the Borg tried to literally attack the gun after accidentally hitting the trigger causing it to shoot a human, it would be based

If the Borg saw that hitting the gun is hurting the human even more somehow and gets serious(!!) about destroying it as fast as possible to stop the human harm, it’s even more based

[Scriptis]

no we just deleted most of silicon policy

change nothing. how is the borg supposed to know it's harming a human at this point. god forbid a cyborg not be allowed to stab ian when ordered to because the hop may telekinetically get hurt by it 300 miles away

same with a human doing their damndest to look nonhuman (that ruling from some time back about a captain wearing kitty ears and nyaa-ing getting owned)

silicons shouldn't have to consider magic because magic isn't real and wizards are fake

[Arianya]

Even without silicon policy, this is pretty straightforward - you see that hurting the spirit hurts humans = hitting the spirit is human harm, Law 1 means you will sooner die than hit that spirit.

Does it suck that silicons are forbidden from attacking spirits once they see this? Sure! But thats the nature of silicons, you are bound by roleplay and rule restrictions as part of your role.

[Jacquerel]

Even without silicon policy, this is pretty straightforward - you see that hurting the spirit hurts humans = hitting the spirit is human harm, Law 1 means you will sooner die than hit that spirit.

Does it suck that silicons are forbidden from attacking spirits once they see this? Sure! But thats the nature of silicons, you are bound by roleplay and rule restrictions as part of your role.

I think you have missed something, the point of the OP is that current precendent is that you're apparently supposed to treat it the other way around.
It's AI policy that for whatever reason silicons are not capable of knowing that holoparasites and humans are linked and so can beat the shit out of them freely.

[Timberpoes]

I'm with Scriptis on this one.

The current headmin ruling from 2015 is a convenience that excepts a really annoying bunch of quirks where silicon policy, laws and code all interact in a really annoying and frustrating way.

It prioritises gameplay reality over rules purity. I don't think it would make the game or playing silicons any better to change this. I don't think it would improve the RP environment.

I think it's a case where a headmin ruling makes an interaction less complex rather than more and I was still in support of it when I rewrote silipol.

[TheBibleMelts]

i think that on the face, this is something that cyborgs should be allowed to do by the strict wording their laws provide. outside of that and in practice though, we're not going to gain anything positive out of giving cyborgs a method of validly killing antagonists who use holoparasites. we already have enough of an issue of asimov cyborgs trying to weasel around their laws to try and contribute to the crew validhunting traitors as-is.

i haven't ran this by the other two head administrators yet, but these are my thoughts.

[Arianya]

Even without silicon policy, this is pretty straightforward - you see that hurting the spirit hurts humans = hitting the spirit is human harm, Law 1 means you will sooner die than hit that spirit.

Does it suck that silicons are forbidden from attacking spirits once they see this? Sure! But thats the nature of silicons, you are bound by roleplay and rule restrictions as part of your role.

I think you have missed something, the point of the OP is that current precendent is that you're apparently supposed to treat it the other way around.
It's AI policy that for whatever reason silicons are not capable of knowing that holoparasites and humans are linked and so can beat the shit out of them freely.

Honestly, the version I've always seen enforced when this came up was the opposite, regardless of the linked 2015 ruling - that the silicons could hit the holoparasite only as long as they were "unaware" (IC) that it hurt a human.

[TheBibleMelts]

Even without silicon policy, this is pretty straightforward - you see that hurting the spirit hurts humans = hitting the spirit is human harm, Law 1 means you will sooner die than hit that spirit.

Does it suck that silicons are forbidden from attacking spirits once they see this? Sure! But thats the nature of silicons, you are bound by roleplay and rule restrictions as part of your role.

I think you have missed something, the point of the OP is that current precendent is that you're apparently supposed to treat it the other way around.
It's AI policy that for whatever reason silicons are not capable of knowing that holoparasites and humans are linked and so can beat the shit out of them freely.

Honestly, the version I've always seen enforced when this came up was the opposite, regardless of the linked 2015 ruling - that the silicons could hit the holoparasite only as long as they were "unaware" (IC) that it hurt a human.

also good.

[Pandarsenic]

No strong opinions either way, here - I think both cases have very strong IC and OOC/gameplay considerations, so it's not a simple "this makes better/more sensible roleplay" or "the game itself frequently breaks down unless we do this" situation.

I think I lean very slightly toward allowing them to smack the Holoparasite and saying they should just outplay the borgs or stow the parasite when they're worried.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

A lot of fights when a Holoparasite is out can get hectic as fuck. There's a LOT of red text flooding chat about "Johnny Captain slashes Betrays-the-Station with the Captain's Saber!" "Betrays-the-Station bashes Innyacent Bystandnya with the Toolbox!" "Jimmy Traitor dices Johnny Captain with the Energy Sword!" "Star Platinum punches Officer Wingnuts! (x27)" "H.U.G.B.O.X. slices Star Platinum with the Circular Saw!" that missing "Jimmy Traitor coughs up blood as Star Platinum is struck!" or whatever the precise wording of the damage transfer text is, is completely reasonable.

If a Traitor doesn't want their holoparasite to be hit, the holoparasite can be stowed.

[kinnebian]

if the borg knows or finds out through smacking that smacking the parasite harms the human they shouldnt smack the parasite, simple as

[Timberpoes]

It all has a strong assumption the player even knows the mechanics of holoparas.

Genuinely this feels like adding complexity for the sake of purity.

This won't make fights more fun, more interesting or more engaging. Players that know about it will be constantly on edge to not get bwoinked, and those that don't will get bwoinked and probably won't have a good time.

Admin team micromanagement of niche interactions super sucks from a playing-the-game perspective and I like the way the 2015 ruling resolves this by just going "fuck it, holoparas don't get silicon immunity but the human hosts of them still gotta be treated gucci by silicons if they go into crit or whatever from it".

[kieth4]

It all has a strong assumption the player even knows the mechanics of holoparas.

Genuinely this feels like adding complexity for the sake of purity.

This won't make fights more fun, more interesting or more engaging. Players that know about it will be constantly on edge to not get bwoinked, and those that don't will get bwoinked and probably won't have a good time.

Admin team micromanagement of niche interactions super sucks from a playing-the-game perspective and I like the way the 2015 ruling resolves this by just going "fuck it, holoparas don't get silicon immunity but the human hosts of them still gotta be treated gucci by silicons if they go into crit or whatever from it".

+1

[kinnebian]

i personally would be annoyed if my traitor round was ruined by an asimov borg beating on my parasite until i went into crit to die from a crewmate, only to be told it wasnt a problem at all because they didnt know what it did

this doesnt need a ruling at all but it shouldnt be explicitly allowed, you can explain game mechanics to people without punishing them

[vect0r]

At least with humans I can stun them or something if they are beating me up. A holopara can’t be stunned, so all I can do is run. I think the simple mob ruling about them being non-human is similar, as you can’t stun Johnny the simple mob.

[Cheshify]

Why is this a ruling, did Holoparas work differently in the past?

[sinfulbliss]

Why is this a ruling, did Holoparas work differently in the past?

It makes intuitive sense. Holoparas aren't human, so they aren't protected by law 1. If nonhumans cause human harm they can be stopped.
Borgs or players in general also shouldn't have to know a pretty niche interaction, i.e. a holopara being bound to someone, in order not to violate their laws.

Last thing is you often don't know who the holopara is even linked to. A holopara can be released in a crowded shuttle and just start merking people -- is a borg supposed to sit there and let it happen because the holopara could be connected to a human? What if they're connected to a lizard or felinid -- now the borg is violating its laws by not trying to stop it.

All these complications and it starts to become clear why the ruling exists.

[TheBibleMelts]

Why is this a ruling, did Holoparas work differently in the past?

It makes intuitive sense. Holoparas aren't human, so they aren't protected by law 1. If nonhumans cause human harm they can be stopped.
Borgs or players in general also shouldn't have to know a pretty niche interaction, i.e. a holopara being bound to someone, in order not to violate their laws.

Last thing is you often don't know who the holopara is even linked to. A holopara can be released in a crowded shuttle and just start merking people -- is a borg supposed to sit there and let it happen because the holopara could be connected to a human? What if they're connected to a lizard or felinid -- now the borg is violating its laws by not trying to stop it.

All these complications and it starts to become clear why the ruling exists.

yeah, i think this is close enough to justifying not touching the precedent and leaving it as-is in my eyes. i'd say the counterplay is simple enough as just withdrawing the parasite and making yourself immune to the circular-saw waving cyborg.

[Cheshify]

We don't allow for silicons to potentially harm humans though, so unless they're sure who it belongs to they cannot - by law - attack the holoparasite since doing so may harm a human?

[Striders13]

this ruling existing feels very inconsistent with both Asimov and the fact that people know everything about antag mechanics IC

[Striders13]

so maybe just... remove it and forbid harming holoparas under law 1, since I know we're all very allergic to adding onto silpol.

[Cobby]

Holoparas were used regularly and I mean you’d have people observe for the role regularly, and they are a pain to fight because they are simple mobs so once they do enough damage to slow you down it’s gg. Silicons had no way to stop it because they could just break doors or straight up tp you. I don’t think it gave a message that obviously linked the human taking damage from the holopara taking damage either.

[BlueMemesauce]

The ruling doesn't really make sense, but it was made because it sucks to be attacked by a holopara as a borg and basically have no choice except to accept death.
I kind of side with with removing the ruling since we're trying to cut down random exceptions to silicon policy so that it makes more sense. It's not like you even have that much of a chance as a borg fighting against a holopara anyway.

[zxaber]

Silicons have no way to interact with a holoparasite except with violence. You can flash a human not wearing glasses, stun them with beepsky cheese, disarm them of a firearm or bag of grenades, lock them behind a door to keep them from further harming the crew. None of these strategies work on holoparasites. I agree with Timber, removing the rule doesn't really add anything positive to the game.

If a borg is around, literally just tell the holo to hide; nothing can harm it if it's hidden. As an aside, borgs probably should not be pre-emptively attacking a holoparasite before it commits harm, but that's a different policy thread.

[Arianya]

There's lots of things that silicons cannot interact with in an ideal way, and thats part and parcel of the restrictions of being a silicon - I'm not sure we should be ring gating antagonist content that silicons are allowed to valid because it'd be inconvenient for them to not be allowed to.

[zxaber]

There aren't many antagonists that Asimov cyborgs cannot interact with. Many (human and otherwise) have counters to silicons, or can gain immunity though items, but those are interactions they themselves can initiate. Anything unstunable tends to be nonhuman simplemobs that borgs can attack. This change would make human-owned holoparasites the only thing borgs are both unallowed to harm and by design unable to stop.

[Timberpoes]

I really don't lose any sleep that this ruling offends the purity of Asimov. It's a clause that makes the rules apply less to the benefit of a class of players that used to be bound by a dissertation of policy.

Removing it causes too many frustrating catch 22 gameplay scenarios where the only benefit is a headnod gif that our Asimov is super pure. Downsides of silicons breaking the rules because they don't know niche interactions and silicons breaking their laws in a different way to fail to prevent harm because they may not know who the holopara is strapped to.

Neither of these are particularly fun or interesting gotchas that they should be brought back, imo.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

We don't allow for silicons to potentially harm humans though, so unless they're sure who it belongs to they cannot - by law - attack the holoparasite since doing so may harm a human?

Maybe that Felinid is a Human who just got cat ears and tail surgically grafted to them.

Edit: Replied to the wrong post. Fixed it now.

[BlueMemesauce]

Maybe that Felinid is a Human who just got cat ears and tail surgically grafted to them.

CMDR_Gungnir on their way to introduce the Ship of Theseus to silicon policy
If you replace all of your organs, are you still human?

[mrmelbert]

Seems like way more headache than it's worth having to verify with silicon players.

"Erm, did you know the holo-parasite you were attacking belonged to a human?"
"No, how could I have figured that? The AI [who has no way of telling the holo-parasite's owner if they don't see it summoned] alerted me the captain and multiple security officers were under attack so I came in to assist."
"There is a message in chat that that blood was spraying from Unknown's mouth every time the guardian was hit."
"You mean like the 900 other messages in chat about people having blood fly from them?"

(Edit: To that end I mean it will result in more work for us and zero gain, as we get tasked with proving impossible to prove situations that result in us giving out nothing-notes.)

Holo-para users should just play around silicons. I think it provides an interesting dynamic where half of your power is human, half of your power is non-human.

this ruling existing feels very inconsistent with both Asimov and the fact that people know everything about antag mechanics IC

People are allowed to know everything about antags - that doesn't mean they actually do.

[kinnebian]

id argue its more complicated that borgs cant harm humans UNLESS its through these things and at this point we should simplify it by making it so holoparas make you non-human

[dragomagol]

Seems like way more headache than it's worth having to verify with silicon players.

I agree with melbert (and the various others saying the same thing in different ways). Expecting the average borg to know:

1. that damaging a creature they see inflicts damage on someone else (who even knows if that other thing is a human?)
2. which person the creature hurts when it is attacked, and whether the rules obligate that you care about them

is just too much work for the average fast-paced situation that this would occur in. A situation that you really don't have the time to check the rules during.

If a borg is around, literally just tell the holo to hide; nothing can harm it if it's hidden. As an aside, borgs probably should not be pre-emptively attacking a holoparasite before it commits harm, but that's a different policy thread.

Also this

[Cheshify]

We're choosing to uphold this ruling for a number of reasons listed in the thread. This sounds like it will lead to much more rules lawyering and messy situations when the alternative of "just recall your holopara" is significantly easier for all parties.

Cheshify - +1
TheBibleMelts - "its fine to attack the holo, but get the human healed within your best faith abilities if it comes down to needing it"
Fikou - +1