MRP - Offensive Genocide of Security

[Diasyl]

Bottom post of the previous page:

The concept of security, as it is commonly understood, is intended to act as a barrier between an antagonist and their objectives. However, my observations on the subject suggest that security can often become an objective in and of itself. Antagonists may attempt to kill Security members to acquire equipment or other resources, and while minor incidents of this nature can be tolerated, more aggressive tactics such as proactively eliminating all members of the security department are unacceptable.

While such behaviour is permissible on low roleplay (LRP) servers, where antagonists have the right to engage in "murderbone" behaviour, it is not acceptable on medium roleplay (MRP), where most antagonists, such as traitors or blood brothers, do not have the right to engage in such actions. The rationale for such behaviour is often framed in terms of future risk, with antagonists asserting that they must eliminate security personnel to prevent them from causing problems in the future. However, in most cases, security personnel are not even aware of the antagonist's status, nor trying to stop them (or being very bad at so), and as such, their elimination serves no practical purpose.

When incidents of this nature are reported, administrators often respond by stating that such behaviour is permissible under the rules of the game. However, it is important to remember that security exists as a counterbalance to antagonistic forces, and while they willingly assume risks to confront antagonists, they should not be subject to arbitrary violence when they are not actively interfering with the antagonist's objectives.

In conclusion, while antagonists may target security personnel when they are standing in the way of their objectives or acquiring equipment, indiscriminate elimination of the entire department undermines the counterbalance that security represents and also is just a smaller version of a murderbone. Such behaviour should be discouraged to ensure a fair and balanced gameplay experience.

TL;DR: RESTRICTED Antagonists (which are not allowed to murderbone) on MRP should not be allowed to destroy ALL OF THE SECURITY for almost no reason or as a preemptive measure to make sure "They won't cause trouble in future". They still must be allowed to kill Seccies, but not take ACTIVE/OFFENSIVE measure to kill ENTIRE department as that is just Murderbone Lite.

[Fikou]

Ninja could've used any other security console on the station, and cameras don't pose that great of a danger as AI will locate them anyway.

what if this was the first one they saw or thought of, do you think ninjas should avoid interacting with security at all costs?

[Diasyl]

Ninja could've used any other security console on the station, and cameras don't pose that great of a danger as AI will locate them anyway.

what if this was the first one they saw or thought of, do you think ninjas should avoid interacting with security at all costs?

Ninja is (at least should be) a stealth antagonist, so they should find the most quiet way to do their objectives.
Sure, they may have just wanted to hack this console specifically so it would've been okay to kill me to get to it, BUT! They didn't come here for the console, they already decapitated half of the Security and were just searching for more to kill, they didn't even need to hack the console as they had already done it prior.

After they decapitated all of the Security, they just went to the shuttle and chit-chatted with heads in the cockpit.

[dendydoom]

What's up with admins saying that it's always okay for antagonists to kill Security then?
DId they just 'make it up'?

i wish i could help you out here but sadly i have no idea what rulings you're referencing.

if it's helpful you can find tickets you've been involved with at https://bus.moth.fans/ and if you think an admin has made a poor ruling then you can absolutely bring it up with headmins (ask them for a cave in #support on the tgstation discord), post feedback for them in their feedback thread or (you will have to appeal successfully before doing this if the ruling was made on you) file a complaint if you think it's really neglectful.

[DATAxPUNGED]

• Space Ninja decapitated all of the Security members on the station. I was attacked when I was just watching Security Cameras unaware, capped.

I was bwoinked AND noted for attacking ONE sec as a ninja before, I am not really sure what i would prefer out of this policy, but we NEED something consistent.

[Vekter]

ok then this is already policy

If It was this policy thread wouldn't exist.
There is no policy preventing Restricted Antagonists from murdering all of the Security, as such admins make mixed decisions.

Half of the admins go "Antags can kill all of the sec no matter what", the other half go "You can't kill all of the sec FNR". As such we need to make a clear policy to make sure there won't be this confusion.

Causing death and destruction to help with indirectly accomplishing objectives must have an in-character roleplay reason. If questioned about a chain of events involving indirect actions, the antagonist should be able to clearly explain what events in the current shift led them to their course of action without resorting to hypotheticals.

If a player or department directly interferes with the completion of an objective, this is no longer a hypothetical as the antagonist can now point to specific events in the shift to justify their actions.

this does not say "unless they're sec in which case kill them all you want" as far as i'm aware.

What's up with admins saying that it's always okay for antagonists to kill Security then?
DId they just 'make it up'?

If you can't provide me with names then I'm assuming you're misremembering.

[xzero314]

Closest I can find on short notice was a discussion from 2021I had with some players

► Show Spoiler

TL;DR You can very easily justify killing security but preemptively wiping the floor with them without any semblance of roleplay just because "they're sec" is cringe

That is the point I'm raising.
I witnessed at least 2 instances of those occurrences on MRP (with restricted antagonists) that I can recall fully:

• Space Ninja decapitated all of the Security members on the station. I was attacked when I was just watching Security Cameras unaware, capped.
• 3 Roboticists BBs build battle mechs, destroyed all of the Brig and killed all of the Security and Command

Its really impossible to judge these two cases without getting the players side. Ninja has an objective to hack a console in security, and a sec officer scrubbing cams is a threat to any antagonist.
The bloor brothers objectives would also be relevant here, as well as the exact chain of events. If they needed an item from the bridge or brig or something, and wanted to use mechs, they are naturally going to draw alot of attention. If that isn’t an ok thing to do as a traitor or bb then you are pretty much outlawing use of mechs as traitor or bb.

Ninja could've used any other security console on the station, and cameras don't pose that great of a danger as AI will locate them anyway.

The BBs have not had any objectives related to Brig or Bridge, as I found out it was just a "part of their plan" to destroy all of the Sec.

We did infact need the reflector vest. Assuming this was the time on Tram where they also sent the ERT

[Higgin]

But this is all code ideas, not policy. My policy is that we should avoid solving this with admin intervention since it gets sticky and mucky fast and instead fix this via the game's mechanics.

based automatic solutions enjoyer designchad post

If you want a system that internally works about exactly like this, look up Iamgoofball's 911 system - it lives on Skyrat but it's basically a crew-paid much-worse-than-ERT you can call at a comms console. The sec one can upgrade if they eat shit.

Ghost candidate roles are there in no small part to take the sting off of RR and keep people if not characters in play. It'd be nice to have some that were crew-initiated and friendly (or not) besides borgs imo.

[Diasyl]

Closest I can find on short notice was a discussion from 2021I had with some players

► Show Spoiler

TL;DR You can very easily justify killing security but preemptively wiping the floor with them without any semblance of roleplay just because "they're sec" is cringe

That is the point I'm raising.
I witnessed at least 2 instances of those occurrences on MRP (with restricted antagonists) that I can recall fully:

• Space Ninja decapitated all of the Security members on the station. I was attacked when I was just watching Security Cameras unaware, capped.
• 3 Roboticists BBs build battle mechs, destroyed all of the Brig and killed all of the Security and Command

Its really impossible to judge these two cases without getting the players side. Ninja has an objective to hack a console in security, and a sec officer scrubbing cams is a threat to any antagonist.
The bloor brothers objectives would also be relevant here, as well as the exact chain of events. If they needed an item from the bridge or brig or something, and wanted to use mechs, they are naturally going to draw alot of attention. If that isn’t an ok thing to do as a traitor or bb then you are pretty much outlawing use of mechs as traitor or bb.

Ninja could've used any other security console on the station, and cameras don't pose that great of a danger as AI will locate them anyway.

The BBs have not had any objectives related to Brig or Bridge, as I found out it was just a "part of their plan" to destroy all of the Sec.

We did infact need the reflector vest. Assuming this was the time on Tram where they also sent the ERT

Nope, this one was on Metastation.

[kinnebian]

antagonists should be unhinged psychopaths who you should fear and putting more restrictions on them will not lead to good times
they should absolutely be allowed to kill security without a good reason on MRP, thats half the fun of playing sec- the paranoia, teaming up

it will always be a cat and mouse between security and antags and that flipping on its head is one of the most fun and adrenaline inducing things in this game, for example;

During one of my shifts as a security officer, I followed my routine of patrolling, meeting colleagues in the medical area, and then returning to the station for check-in. On the third iteration of this routine, I stopped by for a donut and noticed the brig was nearly empty, with only the warden remaining. I also observed a decline in radio communication.

Approaching the warden, I found him engrossed in monitoring cameras and unresponsive to my attempts at conversation. Deciding to leave him be, I resumed my patrol, now feeling more uneasy around maintenance areas and the crew. I avoided interacting with medical staff as there were no other officers in sight. I remained vigilant with my secbelt ready, although no one attacked me.

Upon returning to the brig, I discovered the warden had disappeared, leaving me alone. Radio inquiries yielded no responses, and checking the crew monitor confirmed I was the sole active officer. Realizing my colleagues may have fallen victim to an antagonist, I explored the brig and decided to inspect the cameras the warden had left behind.

Observing a perma prisoner cultivating plants, I went to confront them. However, the encounter turned hostile, resulting in a skirmish where I emerged victorious but not unscathed. Bruised and sick from the nettles the prisoner wielded, I left them secured to a bed in perma and headed back to the main brig before leaving it.

Soon after, I was ambushed by two individuals, a moth in a lab coat and an engineer, both maasked and without IDs. Chased into maintenance, we exchanged shots and syringes. Evwentually, I ended up cornered in the abandoned Library, my disabler out of charge and my baton half charged from the earlier fight, I still attempted to fight back. However, my efforts were in vain as I could only manage a feeble cry for help on the radio and a weak stun before succumbing to a syringe shot to the head. I fell asleep, entered a critical state, and eventually died. As a ghost, I watched them drag and strip in a room where 3 of my fellow coworkers lay dead, including the warden.

End of the round, it was a group of blood brothers that had the goal of stealing some armoury loot (which they succeeded), but also managed to create a horrifying reversal of the usual cat and mouse game between security and antagonists, and probably one my most paranoid rounds on ss13.

They had no reason to go after or kill sec apart from sec being sec, and it still created a tense and enjoyable round.

[Yobrocharlie]

Ninja could've used any other security console on the station, and cameras don't pose that great of a danger as AI will locate them anyway.

what if this was the first one they saw or thought of, do you think ninjas should avoid interacting with security at all costs?

No dummy it’s within fucken reason, if you’re running around looking like normal crew being a traitor you shouldn’t pop an e-sword and kill a device for existing. Meanwhile if you’re CoC (clash of clans) morbius the XVII the wizard you’re fucking valid and can be KoS’d same for a tor wearing an elite suit, same for a ninja or nightmare.

[Yobrocharlie]

• Space Ninja decapitated all of the Security members on the station. I was attacked when I was just watching Security Cameras unaware, capped.

I was bwoinked AND noted for attacking ONE sec as a ninja before, I am not really sure what i would prefer out of this policy, but we NEED something consistent.

1: I really fucking doubt that
2: Context is king
3: The admins might just hate you (maybe for a reason)

[Itseasytosee2me]

Easy there friend, you can put down the keyboard. Its not too late to move past this.

[dendydoom]

• Space Ninja decapitated all of the Security members on the station. I was attacked when I was just watching Security Cameras unaware, capped.

I was bwoinked AND noted for attacking ONE sec as a ninja before, I am not really sure what i would prefer out of this policy, but we NEED something consistent.

1: I really fucking doubt that
2: Context is king
3: The admins might just hate you (maybe for a reason)

hello, this is the policy discussion forum. the expectation here is to participate in serious discussion about changes to policy for headmins to consider. disagreements are allowed, of course, but please be mindful about insulting others and being standoffish. you are not likely to create constructive and helpful discussion this way because no one wants to talk to an asshole. thanks!

[Yobrocharlie]

• Space Ninja decapitated all of the Security members on the station. I was attacked when I was just watching Security Cameras unaware, capped.

I was bwoinked AND noted for attacking ONE sec as a ninja before, I am not really sure what i would prefer out of this policy, but we NEED something consistent.

1: I really fucking doubt that
2: Context is king
3: The admins might just hate you (maybe for a reason)

hello, this is the policy discussion forum. the expectation here is to participate in serious discussion about changes to policy for headmins to consider. disagreements are allowed, of course, but please be mindful about insulting others and being standoffish. you are not likely to create constructive and helpful discussion this way because no one wants to talk to an asshole. thanks!

this is serious, that is a legitimate thing to consider. Regardless ill try to be better.

[TheBibleMelts]

you shouldn't be allowed to murder an entire department of people unprompted. if you try to justify doing it because security will eventually come after you, you could also justify killing all of medbay because they might revive your victims. and then murdering science because they might build mechs or make tools to stop you. and then murder cargo because they might buy guns to try to stop you.

if you've been outed and know that security is actively after your ass, that's different, but being able to just silently kill them by surprise one by one isn't what MRP tries to go for in antagonists role in the round.

[vect0r]

you shouldn't be allowed to murder an entire department of people unprompted. if you try to justify doing it because security will eventually come after you, you could also justify killing all of medbay because they might revive your victims. and then murdering science because they might build mechs or make tools to stop you. and then murder cargo because they might buy guns to try to stop you.

if you've been outed and know that security is actively after your ass, that's different, but being able to just silently kill them by surprise one by one isn't what MRP tries to go for in antagonists role in the round.

I actually disagree with this: when I sign up for science I am prepared to die in a horrible way. When I sign up to play security I expect to die in a horrible way due to antags. There is more of a contract that security has that you can fuck more with antags, but they can do the same as you. And while murdering the officers one by one would be pretty lame- as long as you are making it interesting it should be allowed (IE giving the IDs back with a note on them saying like "Jim, you are next").

[TheBibleMelts]

you shouldn't be allowed to murder an entire department of people unprompted. if you try to justify doing it because security will eventually come after you, you could also justify killing all of medbay because they might revive your victims. and then murdering science because they might build mechs or make tools to stop you. and then murder cargo because they might buy guns to try to stop you.

if you've been outed and know that security is actively after your ass, that's different, but being able to just silently kill them by surprise one by one isn't what MRP tries to go for in antagonists role in the round.

I actually disagree with this: when I sign up for science I am prepared to die in a horrible way. When I sign up to play security I expect to die in a horrible way due to antags. There is more of a contract that security has that you can fuck more with antags, but they can do the same as you. And while murdering the officers one by one would be pretty lame- as long as you are making it interesting it should be allowed (IE giving the IDs back with a note on them saying like "Jim, you are next").

this would be a non-issue if we could trust people to make it interesting, yes. until that day comes, have to err on the side that protects the people who want to play on mrp for the lessened risk of an interactionless death.

[Vekter]

I actually disagree with this: when I sign up for science I am prepared to die in a horrible way. When I sign up to play security I expect to die in a horrible way due to antags. There is more of a contract that security has that you can fuck more with antags, but they can do the same as you. And while murdering the officers one by one would be pretty lame- as long as you are making it interesting it should be allowed (IE giving the IDs back with a note on them saying like "Jim, you are next").

The problem is that this creates this weird imbalance between security and antags where a traitor can't actually be dealt with by security until they've committed a capital offense, but the traitor can do whatever they want to security in turn. It makes for less interesting gameplay when a traitor can just roll up and murder members of sec for some perceived potential threat later in the round, as opposed to making antags have to think about their actions before doing them.

My concern is that allowing antags to indiscriminately depopulate sec would just lead to them doing it every round because it makes tactical sense to do so. It'd be like the inverse of immediately declaring red alert and killing anyone without an implant the moment someone hears a flash go off. Like yeah, it kind of makes sense, but it's not fun.

[TheBibleMelts]

don't kill security fnr on mrp

me - yeah
chesh - yeah
fikou - out getting cigarettes