Ban lings from saying fuck

[Blacklist897]

The unrestriction of lings was a disaster for Tgstation.
Lings murderboneing via hand tele traps, chem bullshit along with dlaming the SM and many others is not very interesting and ends up leading to rounds where a gang of lings kill the whole crew.
If lings became allowed to say fuck because of the fact that sec has no easy means to contain them, then perhaps it's not the ruleset that's at fault but the antag itself, as ling seems to have remained fundamentally unchanged since its creation, bar minor stuff like hivemind chat and the long lost parasting.
Disabling roundstart lings on MRP is also an option, but would only be a stopgap.

Off Topic

initial topic by TBM that lead to the unrestriction of lings: viewtopic.php?f=85&t=34523
previous topic asking for lings to be restricted again: viewtopic.php?f=85&t=35424


- dendydoom

[mrmelbert]

What if we take a middle ground where antags can do whatever they want only if they're roleplaying.

IE, a ling can go ham if they're doing ling stuff, armblade, taking identities, etc.
But you can't use it as just an excuse to do whatever you want while not using any ling powers at all.

[Blacklist897]

Thats the dream but then you would have to add RP to normal MRP play and I don't think the players would be able to handle it

[carshalash]

Realistically the main issue is with the concept of 'X saying fuck' to begin with.

People shouldn't be going out of their way to rack up the biggest kill count they can as if it were Cawadoody.

[Blacklist897]

yes well some players do that and rules wise its allowed

[Misdoubtful]

The unrestriction of lings was a disaster for Tgstation.
Lings murderboneing via hand tele traps, chem bullshit along with dlaming the SM and many others is not very interesting and ends up leading to rounds where a gang of lings kill the whole crew.
If lings became allowed to say fuck because of the fact that sec has no easy means to contain them, then perhaps it's not the ruleset that's at fault but the antag itself, as ling seems to have remained fundamentally unchanged since its creation, bar minor stuff like hivemind chat and the long lost parasting.
Disabling roundstart lings on MRP is also an option, but would only be a stopgap.

I'll be real this is what RP rule 5 itself seeks not to allow because everything else was ALREADY fair game as long as it seeks to create an interesting story.

This is exactly why someone might not want to see them removed from being covered by this rule. Then they can say fuck the story and kill off the entire station with maxcaps for fun and because they can, or whatever else.

I argued against this change in the first place for that exact reasoning, and I'll roll in my grave if this is the actual reality of lings on the RP server(s) now.

[Blacklist897]

I'll be real this is what RP rule 5 itself seeks not to allow because everything else was ALREADY fair game as long as it seeks to create an interesting story.

This is exactly why someone might not want to see them removed from being covered by this rule. Then they can say fuck the story and kill off the entire station with maxcaps for fun and because they can, or whatever else.

I argued against this change in the first place for that exact reasoning, and I'll roll in my grave if this is the actual reality of lings on the RP server(s) now.

There have been multiple rounds where a ling spawns in engi buys arm blade and kills the others and dlams the sm because its tram. A player who I wont name, round removed ,and with no inflation of numbers, 46 crew with the hand tele without useing a single ling power, when this bug got fixed they created a improved version that still works and have only been stopped from using it by a rp rule 10 note.
lings maxcapping shit is also common. (nightmares dlaming the sm or makeing maxcaps is also a issue but that needs its own thread)
This the result of short-sighted policy decisions in an attempt to bring LRP and MRP closer

[Critawakets]

I've genuinely seen baton+laser more often than things like armblade on manuel. I'm surprised you're describing mass-sabotage because most often I see lings just going on boring cookie cutter "space adaptation and fleshmend are my abilities" murder rampages, atleast in my experience.
Banning lings from saying fuck is honestly just trying to put a bandaid on the symptom rather than the cause, which is excessive amounts of powergaming and a very pervasive "play-to-win" mentality on the server.

Enforcement to prevent this could be done under RP Rule 7, but it's likely there would be massive community backlash if this was done.

[BrianBackslide]

Banning lings from saying fuck just brings us back to square 1 where they get round removed simply for existing. If you want to re-restrict them, you need to have a solution for this.

Lings need to be unrestricted to actually do their job effectively. It amps up the tension and gives a credible threat to the station and crew. Honestly I haven't seen huge murderboner sprees from lings on MRP, but maybe that's because I don't play at gamer hours.

[Misdoubtful]

Banning lings from saying fuck just brings us back to square 1 where they get round removed simply for existing. If you want to re-restrict them, you need to have a solution for this.

Lings need to be unrestricted to actually do their job effectively. It amps up the tension and gives a credible threat to the station and crew. Honestly I haven't seen huge murderboner sprees from lings on MRP, but maybe that's because I don't play at gamer hours.

Honestly it's almost like this never needed to be targeting lings at all and instead be targeting the behavior that makes the reaction to them so extreme.

I don't like fixes that don't involve the actual root cause of a problem, because the problem is still there, and it might be getting worse with something like this being in place. Why? Because stuff like this justifies said behaviors instead of encouraging people to play other ways.

The only thing keeping them from being effective in their current state is people being allowed to dunk on them like they historically have. What other choice do they have when that's the status quo? They might at least be able to do something now, but that doesn't mean it's anything good.

People need to actually sit down and ask why about this one over and over again until they get the last possible why they can actually do something about.

[britgrenadier1]

the issue is that when someone uses ling as a bone pass and doesnt use powers sec can't prove that they are a ling. So they can't really do anything about the person, and crew cant say fuck and validhunt them because they don't know 100% that they're a ling. Either let crew say fuck or revert the policy TBQH

[mrmelbert]

I have an ultimate question for TheBibleMelts and really anyone who was pro-unrestricting lings:

In the past few months of them being free, have you seen people use it to desired effect?
Have you seen people use their unrestricted status to improve the round more than detract from the round?
And to that end, anytime you saw someone use it to improve the round, could have have not accomplished the same under the former ruleset?

We were (and I presume, still are) very welcoming and even encouraging of antags going a little off the rails so long as they're making it fun and interesting for the crew (you know, roleplaying). Meaning Lings were already capable of doing spooky ling things prior with that justification.

the issue is that when someone uses ling as a bone pass and doesnt use powers sec can't prove that they are a ling. So they can't really do anything about the person

This is what my original problem with unrestricting ling was.
People don't use ling powers. It's impossible to prove someone is a ling.
So we have a weird grey area where the crew are allowed to do whatever the hell they want to unrestricted antags but it's impossible to tell if you're actually dealing with an unrestricted antag.
IMO it should've been a status reserved for easily identifiable antagonists like Wizards and Nuke Ops.

Either let crew say fuck or revert the policy TBQH

I don't think letting the crew validhunt more solves any problems.

[Misdoubtful]

Yeah, validhunting and the extreme nullifying of threats was already the baseline problem here lets NOT be encouraging that more. It promotes an environment lacking sportsmanship and storytelling, which is what things like ling are now also allowed to promote by extension of being able to toss storymaking to the side. Very cool.

To add onto Melberts questions: What EXACTLY did removing these restrictions ACTUALLY add to ling and the storytelling environment that is trying to be created and maintained on the RP server that was being restricted by RP 5 until this change?

I want to see those things in bullet points alongside all of this, because the proposal in the first place ignored RP rule 5 and focused entirely on RP rule 6. I'm still fucking baffled as to why this was the solution instead of cracking down on crew creating a bad environment and doing things like "lol rr the ling", because those people will just continue to do the same thing except now its justified and those habits will be positively reinforced instead.

That doesn't create an atmosphere of sportsmanship at all does it?
Does it instead create sweaty, validhunty, and in many ways, play to win situations?
What other option is there now, is there any encouragement for both sides to roleplay at all when the stakes are kill or be killed on BOTH sides? Where is there going to be room for sportsmanship in that space?
What reason is there to slow down at any point and try to do something interesting when both sides are effectively all points bulletined and then manhunted?
Is that really what the RP servers are about?
You tell me.

I mean honestly... fuck it man, if RP rule 6 is that fucking bad, maybe it needs to reworded to promote that environment of sportsmanship, of storytelling, of making interesting rounds when it comes to crew interacting with antags, just like the RP rule 5 does for said antags. Make it into something more tangible so that kind of environment can be promoted on both sides equal and people can start to see that as a sort of mission and vision for Manuel.

Punishment of antags by the crew is cool and all, and the hyper-specifics of the rules are great that's super fantastic for nerds, but its about the spirit of the rules at the end of the day, and the spirit of the RP rules is about creating a foundation for roleplay and storytelling in the sandbox of SS13. That needs to be equally important for both the crew and the antag side of things, otherwise its a joke. Maybe that in and of itself needs to clearer than it is too if people aren't getting and understanding that.

The original thread for those interested: viewtopic.php?f=85&t=34523&p=695622&hilit=fuck#p695622

[EmpressMaia]

lings being able to say fuck has also hurt non boney gimmick lings, because sec and other crew will now go out of their way to eliminate the ling by any means neccesary

[TheBibleMelts]

i'd be down for moving them back to restricted, i've seen a lot more play done in bad faith from changelings since it's been lifted than allowance for more interesting situations to play out.

[BrianBackslide]

I mean honestly... fuck it man, if RP rule 6 is that fucking bad, maybe it needs to reworded to promote that environment of sportsmanship, of storytelling, of making interesting rounds when it comes to crew interacting with antags, just like the RP rule 5 does for said antags. Make it into something more tangible so that kind of environment can be promoted on both sides equal and people can start to see that as a sort of mission and vision for Manuel.

From my experience regarding Sec's dealing with difficult-to-contain antags, it's safe to say that RP rule 6 might as well not exist. I like that someone can suddenly whip out an armblade on me when there's nobody around and I think that aspect should be preserved. I don't believe that players should ever feel truly safe next to another player.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

If you're going to re-restrict lings then we need to see actual enforcement of RPR 6, and people not just insta-cremating lings every time they're found out merely for existing as a ling, or doing any minor thing as a ling like opening a door with an armblade.

In fact, my proposal is that we literally add "You are not allowed to round remove a changeling for either merely being a changeling, or merely being a changeling plus one or two minor crimes." to RPR 6, with that second clause being 100% necessary or else people will use "But the ling transform stung/stabbed/cryostung someone one time and did 20 damage to them before they could be subdued with a baton!" as an excuse to valid-cremate them.

That will fix the issue.

If you just re-restrict lings without such a change then we're just back at square one before lings were unrestricted and nothing was fixed.

[NoxVS]

As someone who strongly supported letting changelings say fuck back when they were made unrestricted, I have since come to regret it. I think the biggest issue with a freedom to murderbone is many use it as an obligation to do it. It should exist as a way for people to have the freedom to do cool destructive and lethal stuff without worrying about justification, but it instead just restricts that freedom because the players trying to do cool stuff now don't have the same protections and the players trying to depopulate the station and keep as many people as possible from playing the game are free to do so, and more often than not will choose to do so.

[Cheshify]

"Oh hey let's unrestrict changelings so they can fully use their powers."

> Lings proceed to use good faith F-word pass to act like the lamest traitors imaginable

I'm starting to wonder if we need to rethink how we limit antags on MRP, because I have my doubts about the current binary system being the right way forward. Ideally, we want to let antagonists do their thing without resorting to the same tired BS that kills as much people as possible, like a middle ground between restricted and unrestricted.

[PapaMichael]

This discussion can be broken down into two sub-questions. I think they're distinct, but constantly getting muddied together.

1. Do we want an "regular" (non-wiz, non-nukie) antagonist who is unrestricted on Manuel, to give players the freedom to do antagonistic gimmicks that they otherwise would be blocked from doing so by the RP rules?
2. Because security has no way of dealing with them without gibbing them, so security can't be disallowed from gibbing them, should lings be unrestricted, since they'll be RR'd if caught anyway?

I feel like a lot of people wanted "1", and that translated into support for "2".
Maybe I'm being a starry-eyed idealist here, but I still want an unrestricted antag on MRP on occasion (i.e., not as common as changelings currently are), so I'm partial to "1" here too.

But finding a satisfying answer to "2" is... problematic.

[Misdoubtful]

"Oh hey let's unrestrict changelings so they can fully use their powers."

> Lings proceed to use good faith F-word pass to act like the lamest traitors imaginable

I'm starting to wonder if we need to rethink how we limit antags on MRP, because I have my doubts about the current binary system being the right way forward. Ideally, we want to let antagonists do their thing without resorting to the same tired BS that kills as much people as possible, like a middle ground between restricted and unrestricted.

Part of me wonders if anything would change if the death and destruction clause was just removed and rp rule five was just put into big bold letters. Any role currently exempt probably isn't getting much of any value out of those exemptions to begin with. Their cases are already understandable and justifiable.

The issue is the rules already allow this exact thing and did long before the change took place. They specifically encourage being interesting, without putting any of the same restrictions or encouragements onto the crew. The only real limit was random lol killing fnr and people said that in the thread.

This isn't going to be fixed until players and admins both have the empowerment to make that cat and mouse game a reality and have bad faith folks on both sides get their dues accordingly more consistently.

Then this sort of mess can be prevented and possibly even future proofed.

The first step to that: someone proposing a rewritten rp rule 6, and it being rewritten in a way that players are for it and in a way that admins will want to enforce it.

The second step: taking an extremely high level look at those exemptions in the light of rp 5 and the new rp 6.

[dendydoom]

for posterity i've added the previous threads of discussion to the OP, and also here:

initial topic by TBM that lead to the unrestriction of lings: viewtopic.php?f=85&t=34523
previous topic asking for lings to be restricted again: viewtopic.php?f=85&t=35424

in regards to the discussion i've not noticed a whole lot of difference - the infamous chasm gimmick was addressed and even patched out of the game.

to me the value in this discussion will not be in "why did you do this?" it's "what did we learn from trying this and what can we change to address the issues we thought it would fix but didn't?"

there is the constant battle of the enforcement of protections for both sec and antags. if we restrict lings and enforce RPR 6 harder around justifying their round removal then this will come with its own tribulations because it adds more overhead to sec. is this an issue? possibly, possibly not, but in my experience people are very quick to get upset about sec being punished for what they perceive as them just dealing with antags as per their job description.

[Blacklist897]

the chasm gimmick can still be performed with a work around using conveyers

[dendydoom]

the chasm gimmick can still be performed with a work around using conveyers

off-topic but if the same players do it with any sort of regularity then it's absolutely worth ahelping - i'm not sure of the recent history around it but i believe at the time the ruling was made that it's basically a funny thing to do once and then never ever again.

[Misdoubtful]

for posterity i've added the previous threads of discussion to the OP, and also here:

initial topic by TBM that lead to the unrestriction of lings: viewtopic.php?f=85&t=34523
previous topic asking for lings to be restricted again: viewtopic.php?f=85&t=35424

in regards to the discussion i've not noticed a whole lot of difference - the infamous chasm gimmick was addressed and even patched out of the game.

to me the value in this discussion will not be in "why did you do this?" it's "what did we learn from trying this and what can we change to address the issues we thought it would fix but didn't?"

there is the constant battle of the enforcement of protections for both sec and antags. if we restrict lings and enforce RPR 6 harder around justifying their round removal then this will come with its own tribulations because it adds more overhead to sec. is this an issue? possibly, possibly not, but in my experience people are very quick to get upset about sec being punished for what they perceive as them just dealing with antags as per their job description.

Then stop considering this as a battle between sec and antags and start considering it as the server in general needing to be encouraged to have a degree of sportsmanship and put interesting rounds and stories first. Both 'sides' are a means to that end and both need to play their part to get there, that's it.

This stupid 'they and them' that people get hung up on is a time waster and a failure by people to look at the bigger picture. Just like every other 'they and them' that has wandered into policy threads over the years.

Merge RP rule 5 and 6 into one universal rule if that concept is difficult for people to understand as it is.

[Blacklist897]

the chasm gimmick can still be performed with a work around using conveyers

off-topic but if the same players do it with any sort of regularity then it's absolutely worth ahelping - i'm not sure of the recent history around it but i believe at the time the ruling was made that it's basically a funny thing to do once and then never ever again.

the player mentioned has moved to trying to perform it on lrp and goad others into doing it on mrp so I have not seen it since that horrid day

[xzero314]

I do think personally that the way the ruling is now is the optimistic ruling. It assumes that the person who rolls Ling wont just use it to wordlessly murder bone the station while giving them freedom to do so without fear of breaking the rules, and it assumes that Sec will also be following RP rule 6 for Ling players that aren't killing everybody. Its not a bad thing I think either that some trust is put in the players by the rules. Is wordless ling murder bone so common on Manuel now that its an every round issue? No its not.

I also think to some extent that a changeling refusing to out themselves no matter what is in its own way changeling RP. Since that is simply the nature of their power, you CANT tell somebody is a changeling at all and they know it.

I have personally been on the receiving end of some lame consequences of the pass. Getting portal'd into a pit more than once being one as well as being killed and Round Removed two minutes into the shift several times.
But when I myself roll changeling It is rather relaxing to know like "I can set up a whole scheme that ends with many deaths and Ill be fine". However I never personally had an issue with that BEFORE the murderbone pass change was made either. I can remember a specific round where I messed up murdering the Captain for the disk rather early on (disk was my objective) and so most of the round was spent by a lot of the people on the station hunting me down and it was actually a lot of fun there was some good RP involved back and forth. I killed a lot of people that round and lings were still restricted but it was all well built up and I never got any flak.

What am I even saying with all this? I think personally its fine to keep the rules the way they are now for changelings since it does give good faith players total freedom. But I am also not against reverting the change as its caused some really lame rounds and lings COULD get away with this before if they had proper build up.

[dendydoom]

Then stop considering this as a battle between sec and antags and start considering it as the server in general needing to be encouraged to have a degree of sportsmanship and put interesting rounds and stories first. Both are a means to that end and both need to play their part to get there, that's it.

This stupid 'they and them' that people get hung up on is a time waster and a failure by people to look at the bigger picture. Just like every other 'they and them' that has wandered into policy threads over the years.

Merge RP rule 5 and 6 into one universal rule if that concept is difficult for people to understand as it is.

thanks for your response. to elaborate, if you're interested in my thoughts:

if the course of action being proposed is to identify bad faith antagonism that makes rounds unfun and enforce against that regardless of restrictions, then i would argue that in a broad sense this is generally already true and considered enforceable by the majority of admins i see on mrp. nonetheless it's an idea that i agree with.

i don't consider it a battle personally and i agree with the sentiment but the reality to players is that this dichotomy exists, has a competitive aspect, and is as real to their experience as anything else - to us as admins, gamerunners, etc, it's a very different story. deep down we both know the game will never be perfect. it will always be a beautiful mess that encapsulates the reality of trying to run a large scale tabletop roleplaying game with random players dropping in and out inside of a heavily simulationist sandbox video game.

the way we enforce standards on different roles within the game and how players perceive these enforcements has a massive impact on their perception of the correct way to play. players invest heavily in their roles. their experience and overview of how admins enforce rules on their roles is limited but has a very strong influence on their perception of the game as a whole. meaning, if action is taken against a hos for their methods in removing an antag, the response of that hos will not generally be "i was unsportsmanlike and inconsiderate to the feelings of the other player" but more like "admins aren't trying to understand the difficult situation i was in and i've been punished for trying my best and doing my job." it usually is not correct, but what is correct tends to not matter - it's the reality of the player's experience. players often see their actions within the context of their role and situation, rather than through the lens of overall game balance or sportsmanship.

the ultimate goal is, obviously, to enforce rules in such a way that accommodates the unpredictable and fun nature of player interactions while maintaining a baseline of fairness and mutual respect. but the minutiae of these situations becomes very complex and i personally don't see an effective solution in "enforce this rule more." a common complaint of players against us is making sweeping rulings that don't consider the full context of a situation. as you said: the whole picture needs to be considered, and part of this is acknowledging the inherent complexity of balancing diverse player expectations and their (often limited) experiences in a game as multifaceted as this.

of course, it's difficult to really unpack this in any greater detail because there isn't a single incident i can point to that defers all of these thoughts and feelings - this discussion will have a nebulous quality throughout.

sorry for the essay.

[Cheshify]

We're going to be re-restricting Changeling. We believed that this could allow Changeling players to feel more comfortable with using their tools to act like a horror movie villain, but all we've seen has been a surge of people taking the freedom to use the lamest strategies to mass murder crewmembers on MRP. This does not mean that changelings are not allowed to use their entire kit, we want to encourage antagonists on MRP to be interesting.

We're going to be trying to take steps to address this issue as a whole, see my earlier post in the thread for clarification on what's cooking.

I'm starting to wonder if we need to rethink how we limit antags on MRP, because I have my doubts about the current binary system being the right way forward. Ideally, we want to let antagonists do their thing without resorting to the same tired BS that kills as much people as possible, like a middle ground between restricted and unrestricted.

Cheshify - Yeah
TBM - Yeah
Fikou - n/a