I FOUGHT THE LAW

[TheBibleMelts]

and the law won hey yeah you got the reference great job, keep reading you bozo.

there's a modernized/revised version of space law i've been workshopping with several people this week. a lot of interpretations are changing, and some highlighted changes are;

* less math, more time spent efficiently brigging. no more stacking crime timers, you are now only held accountable for a more flexible timer range based on your worst-charged crime, plus a flat one-time applied modifier based on if they were compliant or not. (wow just like my rpgs)

*an extra tier of LAW for you thirsty lawyers needing content. crimes are now ranked as follows, starting from least to most severe: mischief, misdemeanor, felony, grand felony(new), capital.

*splits permabriggable and executable into two distinct tiers.

*codifies officers getting that sweet green - mischief and misdemeanor tier crimes now have a 'bail-out' mechanic. for those two crime tiers, the officer can take what is essentially a codified bribe to let you off of the hook, up to the limits caused by the next mechanic..

*repeat visitor escalation tiers. if you are brigged, or have to pay a fine for the same tier of crime twice, it should escalate to one tier above. commit one count of mischief, pay the officer off, and do it again? now you have to pay the fine of a misdemeanor. commit a misdemeanor after? they can escalate it to a felony, and so on until you're screaming obscenities from the permabrig. committing two felonies (a list of things which typically constitute with either being an antagonist, or a space asshole), you are eligible for promotion to Grand Felon, which is the new tier introduced to be a the line between 'you deserve to die' and 'you're free to go uwu'.

*re-arranged a lot of the laws, combined some, removed some, added some. better study for the new bar exam, lawyers.

*changed and simplified the modifier system to a flat +2 minutes for resisting, -2 minutes for cooperating. you can still add time if they led you on a huge hunt, too.

*'use of deadly force section' reworded slightly.

*a new 'arrest procedure' in line with how we have ooc'ly codified our officers metaprotections.

check it out at its drafting stages home, which is also just my wiki page right now https://tgstation13.org/wiki/User:TheBibleMelts

[TheBibleMelts]

i wonder if a clause in the use of lethal force section, there should be a line about "heads of departments are able to use lethal force without hesitation from disruptive intruders into their workplaces near the beginning of workshifts, before "X" amount of time after the shift begun, but must seek to have them revived and detained properly afterward.." would go as far as providing specifically heads of staff the right to kick some IC-friendly ass.

[BonChoi]

I'm not going to lie this seems really, really complicated and I feel like it'll catch a lot of new security players (and hell maybe some more experienced ones) out because I feel like you'd have to have it printed out next to your computer to fully understand what you have to do in a specific situation. Especially in LRP.

I think it'd just be better for KISS to apply here - Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Of course, I'm not completely discounting the effort you made to put this all together, as it all seems pretty well thought out I just don't know how well it'll mesh with both of the different server cultures featured here.

[TheBibleMelts]

I'm not going to lie this seems really, really complicated and I feel like it'll catch a lot of new security players (and hell maybe some more experienced ones) out because I feel like you'd have to have it printed out next to your computer to fully understand what you have to do in a specific situation. Especially in LRP.

I think it'd just be better for KISS to apply here - Keep It Simple, Stupid.

this was meant to make it simpler. you don't sit there adding up crimes and applying percentage based modifiers - you now time them based on the worst thing you know you're arresting them for, + or -2 depending if they surrendered or wasted your time, and if they do the same thing again, for instance, having been paroled for kidnapping(felony), and then later tried breaking into the bridge(also felony), you'd be able to be dealt with by a permanent brigging due to the single tier jump.

before, it was a lot about the officer trying to pettily cite you with every small crime they could going down the whole list, and snagging you for a perma brig if they could manage to hit the magic number 11 with those crime tallies, and then going through and making percentage based additions or subtractions and then getting your total.

[PapaMichael]

Overall, I like it, especially the "arrest-procedures", and I think being able to read this will be excellent to new players.

It's interesting that "possession of contraband" is in the "felony" category and does not itself justify perma; I think this is what the sportsmanlike sec players already do, and I'm happy to see it codified.

I'm not sure I love that the sentences have been increased across the board — when I play sec, I usually give people token sentences, since I think being ripped away from the game to watch YouTube for 6 minutes is lame and unfun. I really can't see myself ever giving anyone an 8-10 minute sentence, even if they commit a felony crime. (That said, the "1 minute" sentences from the old Space Law also felt too goofy, considering that there's no way the arrest possibly took less than that to do). I'm somewhat torn on this one.

There is absolutely no way a new player reading this will have any idea what a "metaprotection" is, this needs to be defined so people outside of forum and discord addicts have a reasonable chance of knowing what you're talking about (this is actually a problem with the rules page too, probably moreso, I'm just using the chance to mention it here).

[dendydoom]

before space law was an entirely IC suggestion that only interacted with policy by being a vouch of good faith when the secoff could show they were following space law when dealing with criminals - is there any change to this as part of the update? will space law be treated more like OOC rules-based policy when it's not being enforced properly (secoffs applying jumped up charges to people they don't like or generally being crooked, etc) as opposed to simply an IC suggestion?

[kieth4]

I'm very torn on this, space law has needed a re-write for a long time. But I'm not entirely sure if this is it; the question I ask myself is if a seccie decided to stick to this space law word for word in an average lrp round gameplay loop would it be fun?

Let's say an assistant is walking around with a pipe and a by the book seccie decides to arrest him for 5m and refuse any the choice of the fine. Then the guy, obviously calling bullshit, runs. That becomes 7m and because the manhunt took 1m it's an 8-minute sentence.

This is something that can VERY easily be used a grief pass and I'm not entirely sure I'm a fan, especially if someone ahelps and they're told well space law allows it.

Another example, let's say an assistant hacks into cargo to print a crowbar. 205 Breaking and Entry 8 minutes they resist and run (because you wouldn't let some ape arrest you for breaking in to steal a crowbar) so that's 10-11 minutes. For trying to grab a crowbar
(no longer ahelpable because now it's just in space law)

307- TEN MINUTES for stealing an eva suit/jetpack. Like, this is INCREDIBLY abusable..

(this is for the lrp gameplay loop) and they're just a few quick examples. I do not want a seccie to basically be able to soft grief people if he decides he's having a bad day especially when a lot of these are just part of the your average lrp gameplay loop

[BonChoi]

before space law was an entirely IC suggestion that only interacted with policy by being a vouch of good faith when the secoff could show they were following space law when dealing with criminals - is there any change to this as part of the update? will space law be treated more like OOC rules-based policy when it's not being enforced properly (secoffs applying jumped up charges to people they don't like or generally being crooked, etc) as opposed to simply an IC suggestion?

While it does say

The rules and regulations herein are not absolutes, instead they exist to serve mainly as guidelines for the law and order of the dynamic situations that exist for stations on the frontiers of space, as such some leeway is permitted.

at the top of the wiki page that TBM links, it being so specific does make me think that there'll be a bigger push to enforce these guidelines, which I'm not a huge fan of.

[CPTANT]

Why is the captain suddenly needed for executions, this was never the case.

Also I hate if this entire operation procedure was enforced as an OOC ruling, it really feels like telling other people how to play the game.

[DATAxPUNGED]

Why is the captain suddenly needed for executions, this was never the case.

Also I hate if this entire operation procedure was enforced as an OOC ruling, it really feels like telling other people how to play the game.

This was ALWAYS the case, what are you talking about

In cases where the Death Penalty is desired but the Captain or Acting-Captain is unable or unwilling to authorize the execution a trial is required to authorise the death penalty.

[DATAxPUNGED]

Also, i'd like trespass to mention that using the AI to get in somewhere is still trespass, or something of the sort

[BonChoi]

Why is the captain suddenly needed for executions, this was never the case.

Also I hate if this entire operation procedure was enforced as an OOC ruling, it really feels like telling other people how to play the game.

This was ALWAYS the case, what are you talking about

In cases where the Death Penalty is desired but the Captain or Acting-Captain is unable or unwilling to authorize the execution a trial is required to authorise the death penalty.

I'm assuming the faux-wiki article that TBM typed up on their wiki page is almost exactly as it would be displayed, and it adds

the sections regarding what grants permissable lethal force, executions, or permanent brigging should be followed to the best of your ability due to the impact they can have on another players game.

to the top, which I would assume would make execution without the Captain's sole authorization able to be punished by admins due to the wording included in the quote as well as further on in the page where it states

with Captain's authorization, execution.

of course, that's only for executions and it makes clear the times in which security is allowed to use lethal force.

[CPTANT]

Why is the captain suddenly needed for executions, this was never the case.

Also I hate if this entire operation procedure was enforced as an OOC ruling, it really feels like telling other people how to play the game.

This was ALWAYS the case, what are you talking about

In cases where the Death Penalty is desired but the Captain or Acting-Captain is unable or unwilling to authorize the execution a trial is required to authorise the death penalty.

My bad, this was just always overridden by rule 4.

[TheBibleMelts]

I'm very torn on this, space law has needed a re-write for a long time. But I'm not entirely sure if this is it; the question I ask myself is if a seccie decided to stick to this space law word for word in an average lrp round gameplay loop would it be fun?

Let's say an assistant is walking around with a pipe and a by the book seccie decides to arrest him for 5m and refuse any the choice of the fine. Then the guy, obviously calling bullshit, runs. That becomes 7m and because the manhunt took 1m it's an 8-minute sentence.

This is something that can VERY easily be used a grief pass and I'm not entirely sure I'm a fan, especially if someone ahelps and they're told well space law allows it.

Another example, let's say an assistant hacks into cargo to print a crowbar. 205 Breaking and Entry 8 minutes they resist and run (because you wouldn't let some ape arrest you for breaking in to steal a crowbar) so that's 10-11 minutes. For trying to grab a crowbar
(no longer ahelpable because now it's just in space law)

307- TEN MINUTES for stealing an eva suit/jetpack. Like, this is INCREDIBLY abusable..

(this is for the lrp gameplay loop) and they're just a few quick examples. I do not want a seccie to basically be able to soft grief people if he decides he's having a bad day especially when a lot of these are just part of the your average lrp gameplay loop

so let's compare these scenarios with current space law followed to the letter.

assistant with a pipe, 2 minutes. resists arrest, we're now at 3 minutes in the brig with those two crimes stacked. did he run into another department while running from the officer? toss trespassing on there now, we're at 4 minutes. oh snap, did he shove the officer before he went down like people who get indignant about arrest tend to do? we're at nine minutes now.

here's how this would play out in the rewrite. all of the above happens, but the worst thing he did was shove an officer. that's 8-10 minutes, with an added two for resisting. there isn't a ton of difference in the timers, but it's the easiest thing to change about this system as it is.

i might remove the manhunt thing altogether since it's a little iffy if an officer can still be considered actively 'hunting' a dude if he disappears and gets arrested later on. otherwise, it looks like your issues here are in the timers, which are very adjustable - particularly at this stage.

[Cheshify]

I'm very torn on this, space law has needed a re-write for a long time. But I'm not entirely sure if this is it; the question I ask myself is if a seccie decided to stick to this space law word for word in an average lrp round gameplay loop would it be fun?

Let's say an assistant is walking around with a pipe and a by the book seccie decides to arrest him for 5m and refuse any the choice of the fine. Then the guy, obviously calling bullshit, runs. That becomes 7m and because the manhunt took 1m it's an 8-minute sentence.

This is something that can VERY easily be used a grief pass and I'm not entirely sure I'm a fan, especially if someone ahelps and they're told well space law allows it.

Another example, let's say an assistant hacks into cargo to print a crowbar. 205 Breaking and Entry 8 minutes they resist and run (because you wouldn't let some ape arrest you for breaking in to steal a crowbar) so that's 10-11 minutes. For trying to grab a crowbar
(no longer ahelpable because now it's just in space law)

307- TEN MINUTES for stealing an eva suit/jetpack. Like, this is INCREDIBLY abusable..

(this is for the lrp gameplay loop) and they're just a few quick examples. I do not want a seccie to basically be able to soft grief people if he decides he's having a bad day especially when a lot of these are just part of the your average lrp gameplay loop

Do you think it would be better as an exclusive IC tool, empowering security officers to smack tiders & antags alike, and being able to use that to justify actions to an admin in the rare case of an admin asking you what's up?

It's what players voted on in the last poll, and I'd like to poll it again now that we actually have the policy written by TBM.

[kieth4]

I'm very torn on this, space law has needed a re-write for a long time. But I'm not entirely sure if this is it; the question I ask myself is if a seccie decided to stick to this space law word for word in an average lrp round gameplay loop would it be fun?

Let's say an assistant is walking around with a pipe and a by the book seccie decides to arrest him for 5m and refuse any the choice of the fine. Then the guy, obviously calling bullshit, runs. That becomes 7m and because the manhunt took 1m it's an 8-minute sentence.

This is something that can VERY easily be used a grief pass and I'm not entirely sure I'm a fan, especially if someone ahelps and they're told well space law allows it.

Another example, let's say an assistant hacks into cargo to print a crowbar. 205 Breaking and Entry 8 minutes they resist and run (because you wouldn't let some ape arrest you for breaking in to steal a crowbar) so that's 10-11 minutes. For trying to grab a crowbar
(no longer ahelpable because now it's just in space law)

307- TEN MINUTES for stealing an eva suit/jetpack. Like, this is INCREDIBLY abusable..

(this is for the lrp gameplay loop) and they're just a few quick examples. I do not want a seccie to basically be able to soft grief people if he decides he's having a bad day especially when a lot of these are just part of the your average lrp gameplay loop

so let's compare these scenarios with current space law followed to the letter.

assistant with a pipe, 2 minutes. resists arrest, we're now at 3 minutes in the brig with those two crimes stacked. did he run into another department while running from the officer? toss trespassing on there now, we're at 4 minutes. oh snap, did he shove the officer before he went down like people who get indignant about arrest tend to do? we're at nine minutes now.

here's how this would play out in the rewrite. all of the above happens, but the worst thing he did was shove an officer. that's 8-10 minutes, with an added two for resisting. there isn't a ton of difference in the timers, but it's the easiest thing to change about this system as it is.

i might remove the manhunt thing altogether since it's a little iffy if an officer can still be considered actively 'hunting' a dude if he disappears and gets arrested later on. otherwise, it looks like your issues here are in the timers, which are very adjustable - particularly at this stage.

But in terms of the day to day lrp loop it allows for some really stupid sentences over nothing burgers if seccies decide they're having a bad day. I feel that if this allows seccies to powertrip without being bwoinked (following space law) it could lead to some real shitty powertrips (that we sometimes have already but tenfold.) Timers I think atm are definitely too high for a start though

[kieth4]

I'm very torn on this, space law has needed a re-write for a long time. But I'm not entirely sure if this is it; the question I ask myself is if a seccie decided to stick to this space law word for word in an average lrp round gameplay loop would it be fun?

Let's say an assistant is walking around with a pipe and a by the book seccie decides to arrest him for 5m and refuse any the choice of the fine. Then the guy, obviously calling bullshit, runs. That becomes 7m and because the manhunt took 1m it's an 8-minute sentence.

This is something that can VERY easily be used a grief pass and I'm not entirely sure I'm a fan, especially if someone ahelps and they're told well space law allows it.

Another example, let's say an assistant hacks into cargo to print a crowbar. 205 Breaking and Entry 8 minutes they resist and run (because you wouldn't let some ape arrest you for breaking in to steal a crowbar) so that's 10-11 minutes. For trying to grab a crowbar
(no longer ahelpable because now it's just in space law)

307- TEN MINUTES for stealing an eva suit/jetpack. Like, this is INCREDIBLY abusable..

(this is for the lrp gameplay loop) and they're just a few quick examples. I do not want a seccie to basically be able to soft grief people if he decides he's having a bad day especially when a lot of these are just part of the your average lrp gameplay loop

Do you think it would be better as an exclusive IC tool, empowering security officers to smack tiders & antags alike, and being able to use that to justify actions to an admin in the rare case of an admin asking you what's up?

It's what players voted on in the last poll, and I'd like to poll it again now that we actually have the policy written by TBM.

In my opinion seccies already have a lot of protection and leeway to deal with bad crew. The thing that would interest me the most is if you can say "hey admins I was spacelaw" how do you prevent abuse over arresting people for minor shit to just grief them. Or is trying to get sec to arrest people for super minor shit the goal? if so I do not think it'll mesh well with the lrp loop TBH

[Vekter]

In my opinion seccies already have a lot of protection and leeway to deal with bad crew. The thing that would interest me the most is if you can say "hey admins I was spacelaw" how do you prevent abuse over arresting people for minor shit to just grief them. Or is trying to get sec to arrest people for super minor shit the goal? if so I do not think it'll mesh well with the lrp loop TBH

I feel like it sounds as if you don't want them arresting people for breaking into places or stealing stuff. I'm not sure that constitutes grief as much as you think it does - if someone is breaking space law, they should be arrested for it. Isn't this that "conflict" LRP players are always talking about being valuable? Sec players need content that doesn't involve just hunting antags.

[kieth4]

In my opinion seccies already have a lot of protection and leeway to deal with bad crew. The thing that would interest me the most is if you can say "hey admins I was spacelaw" how do you prevent abuse over arresting people for minor shit to just grief them. Or is trying to get sec to arrest people for super minor shit the goal? if so I do not think it'll mesh well with the lrp loop TBH

I feel like it sounds as if you don't want them arresting people for breaking into places or stealing stuff. I'm not sure that constitutes grief as much as you think it does - if someone is breaking space law, they should be arrested for it. Isn't this that "conflict" LRP players are always talking about being valuable? Sec players need content that doesn't involve just hunting antags.

So tell me vekter, if someone wishes to go space exploring you'd arrest them for stealing a jetpack? If science was unresponsive to a lad and he broke into print some parts for his project you'd want to see him taken from the round and shoved in a brig cell? Would you like me to list more examples of situations that are against space law but I do not believe should be enforced?

Hunting space explorers, people who just want to build shit, people who pick up a pipe in maint, people who do not want to be arrested for bulllshit is not part of the lrp conflict. I HAVE seen seccies do this already, and it is the most fucking unfun way to play the game. I will cry on the day where the rules embolden them to crack down on harmless people further.

[Vekter]

In my opinion seccies already have a lot of protection and leeway to deal with bad crew. The thing that would interest me the most is if you can say "hey admins I was spacelaw" how do you prevent abuse over arresting people for minor shit to just grief them. Or is trying to get sec to arrest people for super minor shit the goal? if so I do not think it'll mesh well with the lrp loop TBH

I feel like it sounds as if you don't want them arresting people for breaking into places or stealing stuff. I'm not sure that constitutes grief as much as you think it does - if someone is breaking space law, they should be arrested for it. Isn't this that "conflict" LRP players are always talking about being valuable? Sec players need content that doesn't involve just hunting antags.

So tell me vekter, if someone wishes to go space exploring you'd arrest them for stealing a jetpack? If science was unresponsive to a lad and he broke into print some parts for his project you'd want to see him taken from the round and shoved in a brig cell? Would you like me to list more examples of situations that are against space law but I do not believe should be enforced?

Hunting space explorers, people who just want to build shit, people who pick up a pipe in maint, people who do not want to be arrested for bulllshit is not part of the lrp conflict. I HAVE seen seccies do this already, and it is the most fucking unfun way to play the game. I will cry on the day where the rules embolden them to crack down on harmless people further.

A lot of these problems can be solved by talking.

Ask the Captain or HoP for access to EVA to get your shit. If sec complains, tell them you have access or command approval. If you end up having to break into science and get arrested, then cooperate, they can't brig you for more than a minute under the new Space Law.

But they also just... y'know, don't have to do any of this. I imagine most sec officers will just ignore really minor bullshit, especially if you have a reasonable explanation. I can see most of them maybe using these as excuses to search you.

I understand where you're coming from, but I see this less as "giving sec power to harass people" and more "getting people to actually interact in meaningful ways so that they don't have to break space law to get the shit they want". If a player's having to weigh the threat of getting arrested with their actions, then that's interesting RP as far as I'm concerned.

(It's also worth noting that "if science was unresponsive" usually means "if they aren't explicitly standing there right at the window", most of the time people don't even try to get a hold of someone before breaking into their department because "well there wasn't anyone there".)

E: Also remember that none of these are going to be explicit, hard rules that have to be leaned on constantly. If someone continues to come up in discussion as using their power explicitly to harass people or make their experience worse, we can and will handle it. We're not going to see someone go "lol space law" and just throw up our hands like we can't do anything about it.

As far as actual feedback for this version of space law, I do think that EVA should no longer be considered part of command or a dangerous place to trespass. That or we need to come up with somewhere else to store public space suits. I don't think someone should be getting 10 minutes for breaking into EVA for a space suit and a jetpack, that's a little excessive.

[Maxipat]

I understand where you're coming from, but I see this less as "giving sec power to harass people" and more "getting people to actually interact in meaningful ways so that they don't have to break space law to get the shit they want". If a player's having to weigh the threat of getting arrested with their actions, then that's interesting RP as far as I'm concerned.

I feel like even if that's what's intended by this rewrite, in practice it will turn into seccies abusing being protected by space law even more than they do now. The threat of arrest already exists for breaking into departments and such, now it's just gonna be codified that if a secoff wants to be a dick with the punishment, he's absolutely in his right with ooc protection because "he follows space law to the letter".

I've only today had to ban someone for maliciously complying with current iteration of space law, which basically felt like them bullying 12 different people that got all round removed in the end because of "repeat breaking of the law". It feels like we're protecting cases like that by giving space law ooc protection.

[kieth4]

In my opinion seccies already have a lot of protection and leeway to deal with bad crew. The thing that would interest me the most is if you can say "hey admins I was spacelaw" how do you prevent abuse over arresting people for minor shit to just grief them. Or is trying to get sec to arrest people for super minor shit the goal? if so I do not think it'll mesh well with the lrp loop TBH

I feel like it sounds as if you don't want them arresting people for breaking into places or stealing stuff. I'm not sure that constitutes grief as much as you think it does - if someone is breaking space law, they should be arrested for it. Isn't this that "conflict" LRP players are always talking about being valuable? Sec players need content that doesn't involve just hunting antags.

So tell me vekter, if someone wishes to go space exploring you'd arrest them for stealing a jetpack? If science was unresponsive to a lad and he broke into print some parts for his project you'd want to see him taken from the round and shoved in a brig cell? Would you like me to list more examples of situations that are against space law but I do not believe should be enforced?

Hunting space explorers, people who just want to build shit, people who pick up a pipe in maint, people who do not want to be arrested for bulllshit is not part of the lrp conflict. I HAVE seen seccies do this already, and it is the most fucking unfun way to play the game. I will cry on the day where the rules embolden them to crack down on harmless people further.

A lot of these problems can be solved by talking.

Ask the Captain or HoP for access to EVA to get your shit. If sec complains, tell them you have access or command approval. If you end up having to break into science and get arrested, then cooperate, they can't brig you for more than a minute under the new Space Law.

But they also just... y'know, don't have to do any of this. I imagine most sec officers will just ignore really minor bullshit, especially if you have a reasonable explanation. I can see most of them maybe using these as excuses to search you.

I understand where you're coming from, but I see this less as "giving sec power to harass people" and more "getting people to actually interact in meaningful ways so that they don't have to break space law to get the shit they want". If a player's having to weigh the threat of getting arrested with their actions, then that's interesting RP as far as I'm concerned.

(It's also worth noting that "if science was unresponsive" usually means "if they aren't explicitly standing there right at the window", most of the time people don't even try to get a hold of someone before breaking into their department because "well there wasn't anyone there".)

Getting a hold of the HoP or Cap is not easy. As you do not have a silver ID for Eva access hop will usually tell you to just deal with it or break in. Captain is usually near unreachable also because they're busy doing other things.

I do not think that a new space law will suddenly force people to talk/interact. They will continue the way they have been before mostly.

I do not think people are going to cooperate much either especially if they are trying to do something and then a seccie goes out of their way to arrest them. I don't view the roleplay of "oh I want to do a project/something cool but vekter the seccie is online so if I go and break in I'll get arrested and brigged" but I do not think this is going to happen regardless. They're not going to delay whatever they're doing to go looking for someone who may or may not let them in or help them or w/e.

I think space law should further reflect with valid reasons for going into a dept or something along those lines so players trying to get shit done before the 40m murder fest mark aren't fucked over due to sec deciding that they want to be dicks.

Your point about people not being there is also pretty much entirely made up, science often has people doing various things e.g toxins, genetics, robotics, xenobio. Even if someone is in the small room very rarely will the open the door for you.

I say this as someone who plays a lot of sec, it is full of people wanting a metaproted power trip. Don't cater to them plz

[zxaber]

Aiding and Abetting is listed as a Felony, limited to 10 minute sentences.

Having played quite a bit of LRP Sec (both Sybil and Terry), random crew just deciding to interfere with an arrest is possibly the single worst thing about playing security. It's to the point where it's hard to even justify arresting any well-known assistant static unless you have overwhelming force or Rule 4 execution evidence, because the moment you hit them with a stun baton, other assistants just come out of the woodwork to steal your gear via shovestuns and drag the guilty party away.

We allow assistants (and anyone, really) to robust sec if they can get away with it. And that's fine, but Aiding and Abetting absolutely should be an instant jump to lethals.

[TheBibleMelts]

Aiding and Abetting is listed as a Felony, limited to 10 minute sentences.

Having played quite a bit of LRP Sec (both Sybil and Terry), random crew just deciding to interfere with an arrest is possibly the single worst thing about playing security. It's to the point where it's hard to even justify arresting any well-known assistant static unless you have overwhelming force or Rule 4 execution evidence, because the moment you hit them with a stun baton, other assistants just come out of the woodwork to steal your gear via shovestuns and drag the guilty party away.

We allow assistants (and anyone, really) to robust sec if they can get away with it. And that's fine, but Aiding and Abetting absolutely should be an instant jump to lethals.

i changed it from a modifer, to a flat 10 minute timer on the first trip, and perma on the second. timers still may be too high though.

[TheSmallBlue]

I feel that lawyers are getting the REALLY short end of the stick here, for being the ones that should care the most about space laws they get little to no protections in it.
Like, they're supposed to be the ones who actually enforce the details of space law, but this rewrite gives them no gateways through which do this without being shot down by an officer saying "nah i dont think this guy deserves a trial", throw the poor suited a guys a bone for god's sakes

[Vekter]

We allow assistants (and anyone, really) to robust sec if they can get away with it. And that's fine, but Aiding and Abetting absolutely should be an instant jump to lethals.

I can't speak for every admin, but I would definitely classify someone interfering with an arrest they have literally nothing to do with as "Unjustified grief/tiding, minor or otherwise", which can be noted/banned for. I'm all for us giving people an IC way to handle this issue, but let it be known that we can and should also be actioning people who do this on the regular for no real IC justification beyond "he's my friend", "I thought it was funny", or "fuck sec".

[TheBibleMelts]

I feel that lawyers are getting the REALLY short end of the stick here, for being the ones that should care the most about space laws they get little to no protections in it.
Like, they're supposed to be the ones who actually enforce the details of space law, but this rewrite gives them no gateways through which do this without being shot down by an officer saying "nah i dont think this guy deserves a trial", throw the poor suited a guys a bone for god's sakes

that is how it currently is, the rewrite changed nothing about that. i still don't think it's realistic to mandate trials from happening due to the time and participation they require. putting it somewhere in space law that trials are required for X would simply result in that section being ignored, and no admin is going to bwoink somebody over not wanting to sit at a trial for 30 minutes.

this rewrite does promote the use of permabrig over execution, however, so lawyers will inherently have more opportunity to try and work their magic than the current state of space law which allows for execution in the same tier as permanent brigging.

[wesoda25]

We allow assistants (and anyone, really) to robust sec if they can get away with it. And that's fine, but Aiding and Abetting absolutely should be an instant jump to lethals.

I can't speak for every admin, but I would definitely classify someone interfering with an arrest they have literally nothing to do with as "Unjustified grief/tiding, minor or otherwise", which can be noted/banned for. I'm all for us giving people an IC way to handle this issue, but let it be known that we can and should also be actioning people who do this on the regular for no real IC justification beyond "he's my friend", "I thought it was funny", or "fuck sec".

Ditto

[TheLoLSwat]

I feel that lawyers are getting the REALLY short end of the stick here, for being the ones that should care the most about space laws they get little to no protections in it.
Like, they're supposed to be the ones who actually enforce the details of space law, but this rewrite gives them no gateways through which do this without being shot down by an officer saying "nah i dont think this guy deserves a trial", throw the poor suited a guys a bone for god's sakes

lawyer is meant to be ignored (unless you want to humor them) and i dont think there is anything that can feasibly happen to prevent that

[dendydoom]

as a respectable lawyer player i do feel like lawyers are a complete afterthought, but i've had some of my most fun interactions playing them.

the point isn't to have a trial it's to introduce some actual talking to the very rigid and mechanics heavy process of dealing with criminals. i'm gonna bodyblock the hos as they drag a screaming man into a cell, demand that they be let free, get a minute shaved off their sentence and then stand around providing tableside entertainment for the prisoner as sec shoves me over and kicks me.

the last thing i want is to turn a 6 minute sentence into a half an hour ordeal that distracts everyone long enough for every antag in the galaxy to greentext in the background.

[Higgin]

the last thing i want is to turn a 6 minute sentence into a half an hour ordeal that distracts everyone long enough for every antag in the galaxy to greentext in the background.

sometimes that distraction is a lot more interesting than the procedural copypaste antag play that people will get up to given free leash, and I think that's why you get trials to begin with a lot of the time - it can be a lot more interesting, and the lack of procedure/standards (anything like a Federal Rules of Evidence) give people room to messily figure it out as they go (often just going with the vibe or what's funny)

as a lawyer enjoyer i would also not want the lawyer's role formalized or given teeth - to quote myself from the policy thread when it came up,

As a lawyer player I think it's a good idea to keep the lawyer's role soft and informal at best - there's really no good accountability for sec that isn't administratively backed at some point, and the lawyer role really shines in the power of persuasion and surveillance, not in being a hard procedural hurdle
smash that mf fax machine

and there's so much more you can do - making it anything you'd have to do would likely be terribly unresponsive to any given round and take a lot of the art out of it

[dendydoom]

absolutely. lawyer is such a pure RP job at its core that i can't even really begin to figure out where you would give it mechanical/policy backing that isn't already part of the rules. even if you announce that the lawyer's badge has real authority, unless it translates into some mechanical power like it turns into a gun that shoots law bullets then it will still come down to the lawyer using the power of persuasion and ~manifestation~ (all very real, i've read the art of the deal) to achieve their dreams. trying to codify any of this creates a rote, mechanical response that will be trained in people as the best way to play. a mindset that feels contradictory to what lawyer as a job brings to the table.

the best input i can think to give is for other admins to consider how the lawyer is often an inroad into cultivating an interesting situation - if a lawyer sends a distressed fax to centcom and i'm around to see it, i activate like the manchurian candidate to give them a response.

[TheSmallBlue]

that is how it currently is, the rewrite changed nothing about that. i still don't think it's realistic to mandate trials from happening due to the time and participation they require. putting it somewhere in space law that trials are required for X would simply result in that section being ignored, and no admin is going to bwoink somebody over not wanting to sit at a trial for 30 minutes.

this rewrite does promote the use of permabrig over execution, however, so lawyers will inherently have more opportunity to try and work their magic than the current state of space law which allows for execution in the same tier as permanent brigging.

Im not asking for it to be policy that trials must be held, I just want as a lawyer to be able to point at The Law and go "it says so right here on line 48 bub. i gotta talk to the guy."
Yes, that won't force people to go into trial, most people won't care, but at least i have SOMETHING. If the law says "oh lawyers dont matter" as it does rn then how am I supposed to take myself seriously?

All I want is one line saying at the very least "if prisoners want a trial you should facilitate the access of any interested lawyers". Not "give any prisoner asking for a trial a lawyer", just "hey this guy wants a trial and theres a guy who's job it is to do that why not give em access"

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I think that prisoners should absolutely be entitled to legal representation, though not automatically a trial. Sometimes its nice to have a lawyer on-side even if its just to commiserate and complain about how totally unfair sec are.

I would change the lines

Prisoners are permitted to seek legal representation however you are under no obligation to provide or allow this.

Lawyers, and by extension the Head of Personnel, exist to serve as a guiding hand and the voice of reason within the judicial process, however they have zero authority over the brig, security personnel, prisoners, or sentencing.

to

Prisoners are permitted to seek legal representation, and if any is available at that time they should be provided some. In extreme circumstances (hyperlink to the Revolution page), this right may be void.

Lawyers exist to serve as a guiding hand and the voice of reason and fairness within the Brig. However, they and their boss, the Head of Personnel, have no other authority over the Brig, security personnel, or sentencing.

This tones down the "Lawyers are meaningless losers" vibe of the old sec policy which posits them as nothing more than auxilliaries for sec in an emergency, while keeping the following lines about sec being allowed to kick disruptive lawyers out of their channel/department.

[Pandarsenic]

The more lawyer, the better

[BonChoi]

Lawyers have been and should continue to be flavor roles that exist to make the rounds a little more interesting for those that interact with them. I don't think that lawyers should be codified as having a more important position than they already do because you should know that upon signing up as a lawyer, your only purpose is to generate interactions between people. If those people don't consent to those interactions, they shouldn't be forced to deal with them or punished for not doing so. The same thought process applies to roles like the mime or the clown. While distinctly less "serious" roles, I can always just walk away from them and they'll have to find another way to deal out their shoddy pranks.

Not to mention if I'm playing a sec officer and you ahelp me for ignoring you for not granting access to a perma prisoner who stands convicted of mass murder or something while trying to fight off a station ending threat I'm going to be pretty upset.

[TheBibleMelts]

I think that prisoners should absolutely be entitled to legal representation, though not automatically a trial. Sometimes its nice to have a lawyer on-side even if its just to commiserate and complain about how totally unfair sec are.

I would change the lines

Prisoners are permitted to seek legal representation however you are under no obligation to provide or allow this.

Lawyers, and by extension the Head of Personnel, exist to serve as a guiding hand and the voice of reason within the judicial process, however they have zero authority over the brig, security personnel, prisoners, or sentencing.

to

Prisoners are permitted to seek legal representation, and if any is available at that time they should be provided some. In extreme circumstances (hyperlink to the Revolution page), this right may be void.

Lawyers exist to serve as a guiding hand and the voice of reason and fairness within the Brig. However, they and their boss, the Head of Personnel, have no other authority over the Brig, security personnel, or sentencing.

This tones down the "Lawyers are meaningless losers" vibe of the old sec policy which posits them as nothing more than auxilliaries for sec in an emergency, while keeping the following lines about sec being allowed to kick disruptive lawyers out of their channel/department.

while I am not opposed to this, this iteration of space law is meant to be an IC shield, and I am concerned that adding this line will lead to lawyers understandably ahelping instances of not being allowed to talk to a prisoner and result in a lengthy justification from both parties involved.

[TheSmallBlue]

while I am not opposed to this, this iteration of space law is meant to be an IC shield, and I am concerned that adding this line will lead to lawyers understandably ahelping instances of not being allowed to talk to a prisoner and result in a lengthy justification from both parties involved.

can we make this thing bigger. can we make it flash between red and a redder red.

[TheBibleMelts]

while I am not opposed to this, this iteration of space law is meant to be an IC shield, and I am concerned that adding this line will lead to lawyers understandably ahelping instances of not being allowed to talk to a prisoner and result in a lengthy justification from both parties involved.

can we make this thing bigger. can we make it flash between red and a redder red.

that header ain't even in the draft this thread is discussing

[TheSmallBlue]

that header ain't even in the draft this thread is discussing

i was too lazy to scroll up in the thread to get the link to your user page please pardon my sins

[Not-Dorsidarf]

snop

while I am not opposed to this, this iteration of space law is meant to be an IC shield, and I am concerned that adding this line will lead to lawyers understandably ahelping instances of not being allowed to talk to a prisoner and result in a lengthy justification from both parties involved.

That's fair. I can't really think of a great way to remove the "lawyers are slime you should ignore" phrasing without risking that right now.

[TheBibleMelts]

this has now gone live, but i will leave this thread open for a little bit for feedback.

[SkeletalElite]

The only thing I'm a little aprehensive about is repeat offenders getting extreme punishments for very minor crimes, ie. indecent exposure which someone has done 4 times in a row getting permad (or potentially executed if they escape perma and then do it again, all over just not wearing clothes). Maybe repeat offenders should max out at 1 or 2 offense levels above? So felony for mischief, grand felony for misdemeanors.

Unless it's intended that it's already maxxing out at one above, but the current implementation isn't super clear on it with the wording

[Cheshify]

The only thing I'm a little aprehensive about is repeat offenders getting extreme punishments for very minor crimes, ie. indecent exposure which someone has done 4 times in a row getting permad (or potentially executed if they escape perma and then do it again, all over just not wearing clothes). Maybe repeat offenders should max out at 1 or 2 offense levels above? So felony for mischief, grand felony for misdemeanors.

Unless it's intended that it's already maxxing out at one above, but the current implementation isn't super clear on it with the wording

Maybe they can put some fucking pants on

Addition:
To be clear, if someone is doing the same illegal thing over and over to be annoying they have the ability to stop whenever they want.

[dendydoom]

generally if anyone is using any system in the game in an obtuse way to make the game unfun then the worst that can come out of ahelping that is being told "sorry, they're allowed to do that!"

with any large policy change there will come rulings that uncover grey areas that we'll have to consider and make subsequent rulings on to reinforce the community's understanding of the spirit of that policy.

tl;dr if you think someone is using space law to be an asshole to the point that it makes you not want to play the game any more, it's probably worth ahelping just to see if it's something that can be looked into as part of this update.

[warbluke]

Why did the law about drug possession remain in the update? I can think of very few instances where enforcing this would not be seen as a real dick move on the officer's part. Something like littering makes sense because other crewmembers don't want to see the halls coated in blood or bad grafitti, but unless someone starts forcing their hyper-omega-death mix on other people I don't think players really care about that sort of thing. Any consequences to use like vomiting or screaming on comms already fall under other laws too. Any instance where possession was the only enforceable law would in my view be harmless, like a botanist setting up a store or someone making a chemfactory. Maybe changing the wording to "Combat Drugs" (Bathsalts, etc) would fit it better.

tl;dr legalize space weed.

[Vekter]

Why did the law about drug possession remain in the update? I can think of very few instances where enforcing this would not be seen as a real dick move on the officer's part. Something like littering makes sense because other crewmembers don't want to see the halls coated in blood or bad grafitti, but unless someone starts forcing their hyper-omega-death mix on other people I don't think players really care about that sort of thing. Any consequences to use like vomiting or screaming on comms already fall under other laws too. Any instance where possession was the only enforceable law would in my view be harmless, like a botanist setting up a store or someone making a chemfactory. Maybe changing the wording to "Combat Drugs" (Bathsalts, etc) would fit it better.

tl;dr legalize space weed.

Short answer: soul

Long answer: Because it makes sense that the space cops wouldn't want Botany wasting their time making space weed and drugs still being illegal hundreds of years in the future is funny.