What is the place of the Grey Tide in MRP?

[DrAmazing343]

Hello, wonderful folks of the /tg/station forum.

I've thought long and hard about this, and poured myself a Screwdriver to write up this initial post. The Grey Tide and the infamous gas-masked horde have long been an infamous, yet iconic part of /tg/'s image, and especially so for the greater SS13 community. The nonverbal yet robust, the bumbling yet mischievous, and the poor, poor sod who's just out to help people all get swept up as one within the Tide, and all are labelled the same one way or another. While all of these players are among us, one way or another, what is their place within the ecosystem of Manuel and MRP in general?

I had a discussion today where a friend of mine disavowed Tiding entirely, citing RP rules 1, 2, 7, and 9. I cannot summate their arguments without cleaving off the finer points for my purpose in starting this thread, but I'll repeat these rules and regrettably put down a shortened version of their argument for each. Hopefully, they will also reply to this thread and provide their full thoughts below.

For posterity:

1. The roleplay servers have a higher expectation of roleplay.

The purpose of the roleplay servers is to provide a higher quality environment for roleplay. The roleplay rules are intended to promote more interactions between players so more roleplay moments can happen. They are not exhaustive, and admins have a very broad discretion to intervene where behaviours or actions could, if left ignored, contribute to a lower roleplay environment.

Tiders oftentimes forsake a justification for their actions aside from a simple "I wanted to," and more often than not in a more OOC sense than an IC sense.

2. Escalation and roleplay.

Modified standard escalation applies to instances of player conflict. Players may escalate as per standard escalation policy on MRP where they have legitimate in character reason to do so. Players acting without legitimate IC reasoning (for example: randomly or unnecessarily attempting to steal items from departments or other people) void the right to escalate to lethal self-defence if it is employed reasonably by the wronged party.

Tiders will often still resort to lethals upon being confronted and refusing attempts to shoo them out.

7. Do not powergame.

Powergaming is using an in-game mechanic or game knowledge to give your own character an advantage at the expense of everyone else. Powergaming can take several forms, but it is generally rooted in playing-to-win or a focus on playing the game instead of roleplay. Playing your character should always be more important than playing the game.

By the simple act of breaking in and stealing things almost purely for personal gain, Tiders may act almost sociopathic, ignoring the chance to include anyone else in their round in order to accomplish their self-set goals faster. Accruing said items for their self-set goals is also certainly a form of powergaming.

9. Stay in your lane.

This means that you should do the job you signed up for and not try and do other people’s jobs for them or lay claim to their department. If you need something from another player you should attempt to ask them to get it for you instead of just taking it. Straying from your lane at the expense of another player should only be done where strictly necessary.

This is the one that I will most easily agree with, but also see an avenue to codify change to if the community deems Tiding a necessary evil(?) in creating interesting gameplay. Tiders stray far from their lane by breaking in and utilizing departmental machines, lathes, and otherwise perform the functions of other players without oft asking their permission or allowing them to perform their job's content.

While each example is certainly able to be debated, each of these rules has a place in the discussion of Tiding in MRP and potential breakages of rules in the act of Tiding, whether one way or another. Through this thread, I seek to both understand the public opinion of Tiders beyond "Greyshit bad," and explore their interactions with each of these rules and the possibility of alterations to either further condemn or allow the style of gameplay that is Tiding on MRP.

I certainly don't know if I've done the topic justice with this starter post, but I will gladly debate and consider each and every one of your replies. My stance on the matter is that Tiding has a place in MRP, but a more limited one than on LRP, but should have a more solidified code of "do's" and "don't's" to draw the line in the sand between the IC conflict sparking Greytider and the NRP shitter that ruins others rounds through delay or destruction.

[Timberpoes]

In the most general of general terms, greytiding is "technically" against the rules on MRP.

Which rules, I hear you ask?

Um... Kinda most of them.

RP Rule 1 can be applied to LRP/NRP style tiding
RP Rule 2 allows ignoring escalation against tiders
RP Rule 3 empowers Heads of Staff and Sec Officers to deal with tiding
RP Rule 4 kills most of the reason tiders tide (to validhunt and gear up so they can hunt antags FNR)
RP Rule 7 kills most of the reason tiders tide (to gear up FNR)
RP Rule 8 can be applied to LRP/NRP style tiding
RP Rule 9 is applied to tiding, since the expectation is that players ask for things from players whose job the things revolve around
RP Rule 10 is a final stopgap against shittery even when no other rule prohibits it.

Not that there isn't tiding on MRP or that tiding is automatically against the rules. Just that it requires so much effort I'd barely call it classic tide at that point.

A good MRP tide requires:
Good enough IC justification for the tide-like actions (avoids issues with RPR 4, 7, 8, 9)
RPing the tide out (avoids issues with RPR 1, 2, 3, 4)
Taking your punishment if you're eventually caught/stopped IC without being a baby about it (avoids issues with RPR 2, 3 and 8)

[dendydoom]

timber has already answered most of this, but to confuse it with my own esoteric interpretation:

the quickest thing that will make me put a stop to a tiding situation is that the tide exists for no other reason than to cause meaningless chaos or piss people off.

in the spaceman's lexicon "tider" goes right next to "shitter" and any other names for undesirables you don't want in your round. the way around it is to not tide. have some rhyme and reason to your rascalities and ransacking.

what saves it from the abyss is when people use it with the universal get-out-of-jail-free card of IC reasoning. someone who is breaking & entering in order to get tools to do a very specific task starts to become less of a tider and more of a desperate criminal - something with narrative weight! people can hook into this reasoning and engage with what you're doing. the simple act of stealing tools is now a meaningful event. tiding to smash shit up or get in trouble for the sake of it or steal items that you have no use for but are rare or powerful does nothing for anyone. there is no further development to this situation other than someone having to make you stop. it's a contrived nuisance and not much else.

[Vekter]

I've come to the decision on my end that there's a lot of things I will willingly allow as long as they:

1) Do not violate the rules to an extreme degree.
2) Have a valid IC justification for doing so.

The problem is that most instances of tiding don't really fit the second criteria. The exception is usually something like breaking and entering, but then I have to ask if they've even tried asking someone for what they're trying to get, to which the answer is usually "lol no".

Timber's breakdown works pretty well IMO. In general, if you're being a shitter just for the sake of being a shitter, you're going to get bonked. I would strongly prefer we extend this to both LRP and MRP, though the threshold for "valid IC justification" would obviously be lower on LRP.

[Jacquerel]

This is probably repeating what a bunch of other people have said but surely the whole point of MRP is "you can generally expect people to have a reason for doing things" and greytiding is "doing stuff for no reason", so it does not surprise me that it is hard to find where it fits.

[Dalmationer]

One thing I'd note is that I often see 'tiding' or 'greytiding' used to mean two different things: General griefing/arming up/stealing for no reason and the in-game action of breaking and entering, which all players end up doing to some degree due to the way the access mechanic in the game is built-- there's not always going to be someone to let you into a department with permission, so you'll often have to jump a table or hack a door to get in. I'd argue the latter, as long as you have a good reason, is an IC thing and the former is an OOC thing.

[DrAmazing343]

A good MRP tide requires:
Good enough IC justification for the tide-like actions (avoids issues with RPR 4, 7, 8, 9)
RPing the tide out (avoids issues with RPR 1, 2, 3, 4)
Taking your punishment if you're eventually caught/stopped IC without being a baby about it (avoids issues with RPR 2, 3 and 8)

Very good explanation (and subsequent checklist) of the line for Tiding, thank you Timber. Very based as always. I've half a mind to call the thread here, but I'll leave it up in case others have thoughts or ideas to bring to the conversation.

[Vekter]

One thing I'd note is that I often see 'tiding' or 'greytiding' used to mean two different things: General griefing/arming up/stealing for no reason and the in-game action of breaking and entering, which all players end up doing to some degree due to the way the access mechanic in the game is built-- there's not always going to be someone to let you into a department with permission, so you'll often have to jump a table or hack a door to get in. I'd argue the latter, as long as you have a good reason, is an IC thing and the former is an OOC thing.

I think that there's a solid difference between "breaking into a place because you can't be assed to ask for access or assistance" (which I would classify as greytiding) and "breaking into a place because you need something and have no other choice or have been denied access/assistance" (which I would just classify as breaking and entering). I think it comes down to the actions you perform before choosing to do so and your motivation.

Bad: Breaking into Engineering for insulated gloves because you want them but haven't bothered to ask anyone for them.
Good: Breaking into Engineering for insulated gloves because nobody is answering your messages on the radio or the CE told you no.

[Screemonster]

One thing I'd note is that I often see 'tiding' or 'greytiding' used to mean two different things: General griefing/arming up/stealing for no reason and the in-game action of breaking and entering, which all players end up doing to some degree due to the way the access mechanic in the game is built-- there's not always going to be someone to let you into a department with permission, so you'll often have to jump a table or hack a door to get in. I'd argue the latter, as long as you have a good reason, is an IC thing and the former is an OOC thing.

I think that there's a solid difference between "breaking into a place because you can't be assed to ask for access or assistance" (which I would classify as greytiding) and "breaking into a place because you need something and have no other choice or have been denied access/assistance" (which I would just classify as breaking and entering). I think it comes down to the actions you perform before choosing to do so and your motivation.

Bad: Breaking into Engineering for insulated gloves because you want them but haven't bothered to ask anyone for them.
Good: Breaking into Engineering for insulated gloves because nobody is answering your messages on the radio or the CE told you no.

There's also the factor of why you even want the gloves in the first place - if you want them to hack a particular vending machine or something that's a different situation to someone who wants to have the gloves just for the sake of having them.

[regie]

Omg just get RID of the greyshits. Janitors do everything they do without being shitheads

[Vekter]

Omg just get RID of the greyshits. Janitors do everything they do without being shitheads

I have been barking up this tree for years, it's probably not happening. IIRC the coders want to keep it as a job with zero expectations for when players don't want to be expected to have to do anything important.

[M3hillus]

Kinda have a few different thoughts on this, thought I would throw my 2 credits in.

For clarification, is this discussion about the ACT of tiding, or the role of Assistant? I feel the these are two very different things.

The point of the assistant job on station from what I understood, was to be a job with no responsibilities that is free to do a gimmick, bum around and interact with the crew, or literally assist the rest of the station. To experiment with different things, to be a blank canvas to paint a character onto.

It would be more smiled upon for the Assistant to cook up meth and other drugs and pretend to break bad than the chemist, who unless an antagonist should probably be cooking up more beneficial chemicals for their department. Not saying the chemist shouldn't make meth at all either, as part of that role is the experimentation and learning process.

Breaking into engineering for gloves when there is no crisis or need past "I want to hack doors" as a non antagonist? That's power gaming. Heck, it's boring. You get shocked? Well, better avoid sec who might notice those burns, and start asking questions, and head to med, or learn the tricks of door hacking.

Tiding is a behavior. It's a mindset, a me first attitude, a "I want to win", that much in line with the rules mentioned in the OP, should be dealt with when seen.

It's up to the players to report the behaviour, instead of just moving on with the round, if the actions are disruptive.

[DrAmazing343]

-reasonably priced 2cr snip-

Thanks for the creds!

I created this thread after pondering what a greytider should look like in MRP; not an Assistant, but the sort of conglomerate of actions that makes up the public image of them. Hacking in, petty theft, property destruction; anything that career Assistant players MAY engage in to cause IC conflict. I also wanted to pick up a definition of my own for what a tider is, and I think I've gotten an inkling more on that. I do like the bit about grabbing insuls without an explicit need to as powergaming— I don't really think of it as such, normally, but I do think you're right.

[Pandarsenic]

It's actually incredibly easy to RP yourself into a situation where being disruptive is sensible instead of setting out to ruin people's days unprompted

[warbluke]

A gimmick I've done a couple times as a tider is to choose a random hallway and make it look like a warzone. Break all the lights, remove 60% of tiles, graffiti up the walls and floors and then set some bonfires around. Normally I'll put some grilles and glass shards around too.
Not sure if it would fly on MRP but it is quite fun to do.

[Vekter]

A gimmick I've done a couple times as a tider is to choose a random hallway and make it look like a warzone. Break all the lights, remove 60% of tiles, graffiti up the walls and floors and then set some bonfires around. Normally I'll put some grilles and glass shards around too.
Not sure if it would fly on MRP but it is quite fun to do.

What would the IC reason for doing this be?

[warbluke]

What would the IC reason for doing this be?

Artistic statement on entropy. Alternatively forming a gang with some other assistants and defending our turf because it would be fun (Aft Starboard Hallway Snakes Rule!) Alternatively to mess with security and janitorial staff or trick someone into thinking that crazy things have gone down because hypothetical tider character finds such things funny.

[Vekter]

What would the IC reason for doing this be?

Artistic statement on entropy. Alternatively forming a gang with some other assistants and defending our turf because it would be fun (Aft Starboard Hallway Snakes Rule!) Alternatively to mess with security and janitorial staff or trick someone into thinking that crazy things have gone down because hypothetical tider character finds such things funny.

Sure, then you're good. As long as your reasoning for doing something is both moderately logically sound and not explicitly breaking the rules, you should be okay. The thing to remember about your specific example is that being okay on the rules end of things does not make you okay ICly; if sec wants to beat and brig you for breaking a bunch of shit, that's on them. If you start coordinating a gang and they shut it down, you kinda have to let them. Just understand that you're toeing the rule 1 line if you do this often enough or if you're causing a lot of extra work for security in the process. As long as you're not exposing anything to space and the shit you're breaking isn't directly required for someone to do their job, it's kosher.

Off Topic

Also I'm tagging this off-topic because it's not exactly directly related, but you need to be careful about "forming a gang" gimmicks because they often go off the rails rather quickly and snowball from "We're just goofing around and having fun being in a gang" to "Someone pushed Jimmy so we're going to break into their department and break all their shit".

[DrAmazing343]

As someone who recently did a gang gimmick (RIP Tony Montana, long live Jonesy Arizona) it really is a very thin line you gotta walk between being like, charismatic and RP-inducing gang rather than just having hyped up goons who want to fuck shit up. If Sec is cool with it, you could probably do some more fun stuff, but Sec shut us down quick and I had little other option than to tell my goons we were done. Gotta tiptoe with stuff like that, for sure.

[Higgin]

It's actually incredibly easy to RP yourself into a situation where being disruptive is sensible instead of setting out to ruin people's days unprompted

my advice for it would be

► Show Spoiler

creating "a reason" is easy - the part so many people fail at is stopping when it stops being a good time for others or going somewhere else when they're not interested

not because it's easy because a lot of signals can be ambiguous - but generally, if you want to probe, do one thing and see if they do it back to you. start small by being minorly disagreeable. if they don't respond in kind, get out of there, try again later, but not at a higher level than before, and not if they're in a worse or significantly different place (don't heckle doctors and toss their shit around or graffiti medical while there are sixteen bodies and a plague if you want to see if any of them want to shoot you with a syringe gun later - they still well might, but they're a lot more likely to feel like you're a griefing shithead than if you did it on an otherwise dead round where the entire medbay got to come together to beat you up, toss you out, give you a pizza arm, etc.

and at that point you should retire from it and leave them alone - repetition isn't a good seasoning.

it's a very delicate line to walk doing nonantag conflict tastefully, there's probably a lot more to be said, but yeah

edit: snipping this because Timber gave a much more comprehensive answer up top, just my thoughts on how to do this well above

[Isratosh]

While I agree with the posts made here regarding the rules and the likelihood that tiders are breaking them, I do genuinely believe that there is a role for annoying assistants on both LRP and MRP - security job content. I don't agree that security should or does exist solely to fight antagonists because often there are none or they are flying under the radar for most of the round, especially on MRP. The slippery slope I am imagining ends in a state where any disruptive criminal that is reported is either 100% guaranteed to be an antagonist or 100% guaranteed to be banned. I think the ambiguity of whether or not the low-life greytiding criminal scum is a traitor or not is an important aspect of the social deduction and limited information parts of this game. If we knew every one we brought in to the brig was a traitor, we wouldn't let them go. The greytide is forcing us to carefully consider the evidence and the acts and the intents behind every crime scene instead of making hasty assumptions.

I've compiled a non-exhaustive checklist of how to greytide without getting banned. Your mileage may vary, this was tested by professionals on a closed course.

• Have some sort of reason or idea as motivation, even flimsy (work on a project, protect yourself from a real and present threat, get back at somebody who has wronged you, etc.)

• Don't hurt anybody that isn't asking for it (this depends on server rules - LRP: you can defend yourself lethally if necessary, MRP: you cannot defend yourself lethally if you don't have a really really good reason to be breaking in somewhere)

• Don't take a bunch of job critical items

• Don't hurt security that arrive to stop you - just stun and run

• Don't do this often enough (during individual rounds and over several rounds) that you become a household name with players or especially admins - if you start accumulating admin PMs and notes, you're doing something wrong

[Timberpoes]

I wouldn't say annoying assistants are security job content. I'd say they're admin job content though.

SS13 is set up so all sorts of players get into conflict in general. That natural conflict stemming from different people being thrown into a huge social experiment space station is the sec job content. Escalation rules create sec job content too.

All of that provides meaningful cover for antags, because it takes sec time and attention away to handle and can tie people up in roleplay.

Greytide is its purest form are just empty sec calories. Just execute them there and then and hope a based admin is on that understands how annoying it is to play sec when half the people acting like antags still get you banned for killing them.

[TheBibleMelts]

While I agree with the posts made here regarding the rules and the likelihood that tiders are breaking them, I do genuinely believe that there is a role for annoying assistants on both LRP and MRP - security job content. I don't agree that security should or does exist solely to fight antagonists because often there are none or they are flying under the radar for most of the round, especially on MRP. The slippery slope I am imagining ends in a state where any disruptive criminal that is reported is either 100% guaranteed to be an antagonist or 100% guaranteed to be banned. I think the ambiguity of whether or not the low-life greytiding criminal scum is a traitor or not is an important aspect of the social deduction and limited information parts of this game. If we knew every one we brought in to the brig was a traitor, we wouldn't let them go. The greytide is forcing us to carefully consider the evidence and the acts and the intents behind every crime scene instead of making hasty assumptions.

I've compiled a non-exhaustive checklist of how to greytide without getting banned. Your mileage may vary, this was tested by professionals on a closed course.

• Have some sort of reason or idea as motivation, even flimsy (work on a project, protect yourself from a real and present threat, get back at somebody who has wronged you, etc.)

• Don't hurt anybody that isn't asking for it (this depends on server rules - LRP: you can defend yourself lethally if necessary, MRP: you cannot defend yourself lethally if you don't have a really really good reason to be breaking in somewhere)

• Don't take a bunch of job critical items

• Don't hurt security that arrive to stop you - just stun and run

• Don't do this often enough (during individual rounds and over several rounds) that you become a household name with players or especially admins - if you start accumulating admin PMs and notes, you're doing something wrong

A good MRP tide requires:
Good enough IC justification for the tide-like actions (avoids issues with RPR 4, 7, 8, 9)
RPing the tide out (avoids issues with RPR 1, 2, 3, 4)
Taking your punishment if you're eventually caught/stopped IC without being a baby about it (avoids issues with RPR 2, 3 and 8)

It's actually incredibly easy to RP yourself into a situation where being disruptive is sensible instead of setting out to ruin people's days unprompted

Timber's breakdown works pretty well IMO. In general, if you're being a shitter just for the sake of being a shitter, you're going to get bonked. I would strongly prefer we extend this to both LRP and MRP, though the threshold for "valid IC justification" would obviously be lower on LRP.

you guys got this one figured out i think.

[TheBibleMelts]

chesh agrees, so we're wrappin this one up.