Hypnosis/Brainwashing Guidelines

[Witherael]

For my own reference, and to bring attention to the matter, I need clarification on the rules of being a hypnotized/brainwashed victim, and how easy it is to detect and enforce when those rules are broken.
What I expect to see is a good faith interpretation of the objective that is actively being worked on, assuming the objective is coherent enough to be interpreted in the first place.
What I typically see instead of that is as it pertains to hypnosis specifically is walking into medbay until someone scans them and sees the brain trauma, or ignoring it outright.
After talking to an admin about it, I get the impression that its not easy to keep tabs on so many people, and its especially not easy to question and confront so many people, so its only dealt with after a ticket is made and sufficient reason of suspicion is provided.
This becomes an impossible feat as long as you remain in the round, as you have no way to keep tabs on every victim yourself. Double the impossibility if you do what I do and use a hypnogrenade instead of individually identifying and hypnotizing each victim.
If I could have very specific guidelines on what is and is not acceptable, I have no doubt it would at least make it easier to do.

[Rustybuckets6601]

I do think clarification is needed, there's a big difference between hypnosis and ai laws that I don't think is discussed or applied often

[Timberpoes]

Players dislike being hypnotised because it forces them to change their plans for the shift. The default stance of players will often be to get rid of it or ignore it, which is bad faith. Some may follow the prompt in good faith. I like those players.

With one or two victims admins may step in if asked. But mass hypnosis almost inevitably results in mass players not caring. The admin team have procedures to follow which involve investigation when bwoinking players. This can often mean mass admins not caring.

The more effort you put into enforcing your hypnosis IC, the more effort an admin is going to put in OOC if the hypnosis victims don't do what you demand. It gives us more ammo to tell the player they have to take the L, making the ticket less annoying (but still annoying cuz it'll be someone intentionally not doing the prompt cuz it's getting in the way of their shift, so it'll be a CBT ahelp).

If you have so many victims you can't handle it IC, the admin team are unlikely to micromanage everyone via ahelps for you. You'd just have to accept the L.

It's likely nothing you did wrong. It's just easier to tell you we don't care than it is to tell 8 players individually to do something they don't want to do.

The fact you can't manage to do it yourself in the round plus me telling you it's even more work to also initiate those tickets with players as an admin should tell you all you need to know.

[Redbert]

I don't think this is much of an issue with the hypnosis victims as it is with the person who hypnotizes them. Vast majority of people are down to go be your antag buddy and help with your objectives.
I think we should focus on what hypnosis objectives are actually in 'good faith'. What point between 'You're now an antag with me, help me green text' and 'You're now a statue, you may not move or speak' is an acceptable hypnosis?
If we want this to be a policy, I think hypnosis should either.
A) Help you achieve your antag objectives
B) Have a designated end within a reasonable amount of time.

You specifically have a habit of applying hypnosis objectives that force players to comply for the remainder of the round, unless someone forcibly intervenes and cures the victims. You could say this is normal for hypnosis, but the problem is you are not causing destruction or attempting to close out the round in any way. There is no motivation for other players to help the victims other than metafriendship.
I don't think this is as much a policy issue as it is a YOU issue. Your objectives are not open ended, they're lawyered in a way to force people to act in a very specific way for the remainder of the round. Every one of your hypnosis 'gimmicks' involve in you or someone else ahelping.

Recently on the mannycord, you were bragging that people would rather eat a note than follow your hypnosis. I don't believe you're acting in good faith

[Yulice]

This is going to run into the same issues of force borg machine for malf and to a lesser extent revs/cult, in that you cannot force players to do something that they don't want to do in the end, no matter what you threaten them with. Ghosting after being borged is punishable by banning and without fail every time the borg machine ends up with like 8 soulless borgs around it.

[DrAmazing343]

There is certainly an ineffable level of concern one SHOULD take when it comes to giving brainwash objectives; I agree with the idea of accomplishing objectives, or ending in a reasonable amount of time, because both are relatively likely to either finish out your round or make both of you go loud enough that there's a higher chance for the victim to both see action or get cured. I am aware that it's antithetical to hypnosis to consider your victim being cured as a good thing, but once a gimmick has run its course or your objectives are done, what now for your victim? They're bound by laws they have to constantly reevaluate given any decision, unable to break them or go back to normal gameplay without playing in bad faith.

Therefore, good faith on both sides makes a better play experience for both sides. In regards to the guidelines, this may be worth an amending to add an addendum to some part of the rules to encourage.

I like a lot of more unorthodox brainwashing objectives, but some people don't, and that's okay. It's not entirely fair to take what could end up being 90+ minutes of someone's time for something, but as-is, this is more of a code issue than a policy issue if we consider it an issue at all overall. Just exercise good faith in brainwashing objectives, and it's fun for all.

[Witherael]

Recently on the mannycord, you were bragging that people would rather eat a note than follow your hypnosis. I don't believe you're acting in good faith

That would be complaining

[Witherael]

There is certainly an ineffable level of concern one SHOULD take when it comes to giving brainwash objectives; I agree with the idea of accomplishing objectives, or ending in a reasonable amount of time, because both are relatively likely to either finish out your round or make both of you go loud enough that there's a higher chance for the victim to both see action or get cured.

I have been advocating for a new way to hypnotize for a little bit, and I'm willing to assume it would at least make it a little better. Essentially, its a hypnogrenade change that allows you to make a preset hypnosis, but is only temporary to the tune of 40-ish minutes, and comes with welding goggles. I've had several other ideas in a previous post, but this is the one I'm most willing to stick with and is most likely to actually make it in.

[DrAmazing343]

Certainly, it'd be valuable to me if there was a limit on the time, there, but that's an issue for the maints to decide and a possible separate coderpost or something.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

What kinds of hypnosis commands are we talking about here?

Because there's a long precedent even for silicon laws that super unreasonable, time consuming, or obnoxious commands/laws are expected to get ignored/only somewhat followed. (See classics like "AI count all tiles on station before answering any other orders")

[Witherael]

What kinds of hypnosis commands are we talking about here?

I'll typically do one involving some form of construction followed by a task relating to said construction, like build a pokemon center in departures and then heal pets or go to the chapel and decorate it to look like a ritual site and then follow my orders. I might also do something more gimmicky, like needing to keep the NAD unsecure or necessitating that you only communicate in muscle man style my mom jokes ala 'You know who else wants the shuttle called? MY MOM!'. Just a bunch of things really, and the end is usually just when the trauma is cured, instead of when an objective is fully completed. I do sometimes make more fully dedicated objectives that could be completed, but I don't often get a chance to use them just because I favor the hypnogrenade over brainwashing or hypnoflashing, and its kind of a one and done deal.

[Redbert]

You are consistently putting more than 50% of the players involved in your hypnosis into a situation where they would rather knowingly break the rules and eat a note than take part in your gimmick. Perhaps it's not a lax policy that's the issue, eh?
Maybe take a step back and re-evaluate instead of trying to get other people into trouble

[WineAllWine]

What kinds of hypnosis commands are we talking about here?

I'll typically do one involving some form of construction followed by a task relating to said construction, like build a pokemon center in departures and then heal pets or go to the chapel and decorate it to look like a ritual site and then follow my orders. I might also do something more gimmicky, like needing to keep the NAD unsecure or necessitating that you only communicate in muscle man style my mom jokes ala 'You know who else wants the shuttle called? MY MOM!'. Just a bunch of things really, and the end is usually just when the trauma is cured, instead of when an objective is fully completed. I do sometimes make more fully dedicated objectives that could be completed, but I don't often get a chance to use them just because I favor the hypnogrenade over brainwashing or hypnoflashing, and its kind of a one and done deal.

Yeah that's the issue. "go do this gimmick that I find interesting and you probably don't care about".

As timber says these are annoying tickets to deal with as admins.

I hail from Terry and there, 95% of hypnoses are "you're my antag buddy" and they almost always work.

[Jezzared]

What i'm seeing here, -and there may be more nuance than this- but what i'm seeing is a bunch of people telling an antagonist to get LESS creative on MRP.

In an environment where we are consistently told antags should not play for greentext and build their own objectives, a bunch of people are telling a consistent and creative antagonist player to take the boring, standard option. You can see why this doesn't sit right with me. I would, 10 times out of 10, prefer to follow a hypno objective that has me do something novel or fun, than to get onehuman'd as a carbon.

Y'know what else would stop people being able to do the "projects" they were setting out to do? Literally any other form of antagonism, like murder, or mass destruction of the station. Instead of doing those wrote and common activities that we lament about, here is a player trying to do something novel with a niche item, and being told "suck it up and just stab people.

We read the same roundend chatter, right? Of people complaining about very high-skilled players being slaves to progtot or being too robust and ending up taking down the whole sec force since they drip-fed in one at a time? "This player never does anything fun, they just bone." "Goddamnit i hate this gamer, greentext is lame."

How do we encourage more people to try gimmicks? Well for starters, maybe we should ENCOURAGE THE USE OF GIMMICKY TOOLS.

[britgrenadier1]

What i'm seeing here, -and there may be more nuance than this- but what i'm seeing is a bunch of people telling an antagonist to get LESS creative on MRP.

In an environment where we are consistently told antags should not play for greentext and build their own objectives, a bunch of people are telling a consistent and creative antagonist player to take the boring, standard option. You can see why this doesn't sit right with me. I would, 10 times out of 10, prefer to follow a hypno objective that has me do something novel or fun, than to get onehuman'd as a carbon.

Y'know what else would stop people being able to do the "projects" they were setting out to do? Literally any other form of antagonism, like murder, or mass destruction of the station. Instead of doing those wrote and common activities that we lament about, here is a player trying to do something novel with a niche item, and being told "suck it up and just stab people.

We read the same roundend chatter, right? Of people complaining about very high-skilled players being slaves to progtot or being too robust and ending up taking down the whole sec force since they drip-fed in one at a time? "This player never does anything fun, they just bone." "Goddamnit i hate this gamer, greentext is lame."

How do we encourage more people to try gimmicks? Well for starters, maybe we should ENCOURAGE THE USE OF GIMMICKY TOOLS.

Nah, all of this is wrong. Gimmicks are fine, telling people to go be a statue isn't. One hypno directive from the OP in question one round was quite literally "Go to the library and paint me for the rest of the round." We could learn a lot from Sybil and Terry tbh, giving someone freedom to go do bad stuff or assist the hypnotizer should be what we aim for rather than "Go be a statue for 90 minutes."

[Jezzared]

A cult of people painting one guy in the library seems like something that should be investigated by the crew. It seems like that objective was given with the intent of being caught. Hell, he even brand-stamped it by making them paint him. If that doesn't scream "withers is bad and we should go to the library and deconvert all the hypno'd people, then i don't know what does.

EDIT: In addition, as far as i know, you DO get an antag pass to pursue your objective. If sec starts fucking with you while painting your hypnotist to try and get you to stop, you CAN fuck with them.

[Timberpoes]

You can assume antag pass limited specifically to accomplishing your hypnosis goal.

Exceptions always apply and I'm sure someone will fly in to list them off, but broadly speaking if you're doing antag stuff in good faith to accomplish your hypno objectives, the responsibility is on the person who gave you those objectives.

[TheLoLSwat]

What i'm seeing here, -and there may be more nuance than this- but what i'm seeing is a bunch of people telling an antagonist to get LESS creative on MRP.

I think its moreso keeping the creativity IC and coming up together with ideas that you both are interested in rather than trying to OOCly force someone to participate in a grand scheme that they may not want to spend their rounds doing

[Constellado]

What i'm seeing here, -and there may be more nuance than this- but what i'm seeing is a bunch of people telling an antagonist to get LESS creative on MRP.

I think its moreso keeping the creativity IC and coming up together with ideas that you both are interested in rather than trying to OOCly force someone to participate in a grand scheme that they may not want to spend their rounds doing

This type of roleplay is much more fun and is VERY rewarding to have. Both players get enjoyment, (It makes me happy seeing the other person saying they had a good time!) and it makes the RP feel personal and imho more curated and high quality. It doesn't feel cookie cutter copy and paste.

Hypnotizing a person to get IC information, giving them a role in which they have a choice in how to go about their tasks based on the round, or to get them to do a specific task for the round specific evil deeds would work. Copy and pasted hypnosis can be cool but it is not as good as ones that are curated for the round or can change based on the round in my opinion.

________________________

Mind you, I personally don't mind weird or gimmicky hypnosis. (apart from the library painting one that I dislike at a personal level) However people in Manuel really don't like doing construction projects. Over half of the Manuel players online don't want to do succession station when there is a vote (it's really fun! But not for them.) and I saw a time when admins did a construction event, and nobody came up to help. (Make a Mario cart track through the station) There are some players that like doing them (myself) but those are NOT the majority. They will not want to do those kinds of hypnosis, and I believe that players should not have to be forced to do things in game that they did not sign up for.

Players also get tired of seeing people being hypnod all the time (even if they never saw it themselves in game), or seeing people talking about the Hypno in discord/roundend chat and then getting hypnod in game the next day. Its boring due to repetition (even if it is a different set of players getting it each time)and puts all the bad vibes of the discord chatter into their heads.

[Blacklist897]

A cult of people painting one guy in the library seems like something that should be investigated by the crew. It seems like that objective was given with the intent of being caught. Hell, he even brand-stamped it by making them paint him. If that doesn't scream "withers is bad and we should go to the library and deconvert all the hypno'd people, then i don't know what does.

EDIT: In addition, as far as i know, you DO get an antag pass to pursue your objective. If sec starts fucking with you while painting your hypnotist to try and get you to stop, you CAN fuck with them.

the issue is that requires manny players who understand english and have working brains

[Witherael]

What i'm seeing here, -and there may be more nuance than this- but what i'm seeing is a bunch of people telling an antagonist to get LESS creative on MRP.

I think its moreso keeping the creativity IC and coming up together with ideas that you both are interested in rather than trying to OOCly force someone to participate in a grand scheme that they may not want to spend their rounds doing

This is something I do, just not something I document, because there's no true purpose for writing down round specific hypnosis. Its also far easier to do with brainwashing than it is hypnoflashing, and especially hypnogrenading, because you aren't pressured to come up with something on the spot and type it before someone on comms shouts something, and because the process of either convincing someone or 'convincing' someone to be brainwashed lends itself very well to the idea of a non-sanitized objective, unlike the hypnosis avenues. The drawback here comes from the brainwashing surgery disk being a restricted item on the uplink, so instead of talking to someone and lying to them and saying they're gonna be able to use psychic powers or read minds or something and then leading them to a surgery room and operating on their brain, you just click sleepy pen and hypnoflash really fast and fire a copy pasted hypnosis from the hip.

As far as how acceptable pre-written hypnosis is, I think that its entirely acceptable. I don't really believe its feasible to come up with only good hypnosis objectives in a given round, unless you arn't making good use of your traitor items in the first place. I don't usually reuse any pre-written objectives, but I see it as a kind of quality control, such that it only ever gets into a round if I think it fits or is interesting or is different enough. My preferred method of hypnosis, the hypnogrenade, is particularly reliant on pre constructed objectives because there was never the notion of individualized, personal objectives to begin with.

[EpheL]

Now, I've seen you proudly post your hypnosis bits, and though I dislike your attitude about them, or your general attitude towards the game or other players for that matter, I do think I'd enjoy a decent portion of them when presented with them.
Hell I have a character for which one of the entire bits is to be very willing to comply with hypnosis for a reason. I can understand the effort being put into coming up with these, and I can admit that they're mostly pretty damn creative.
Honestly, good on you for that. It's one helluva a bitch to write.

But, I don't think that makes them good, though.
At least not for this environment.

It's important for us to keep in mind that roleplaying is cooperative, and a lot of this here is essentially rapid-fire improv scenes for up to two hours.
But that being interesting relies on the participants having agency in what they improv and what scenes they partake in and for how long, what the "and" after "yes" means.
There is no script, and that's the good part.

So I think hypnosis objectives that forego players' agency in all of those three fields are inherently going to cause issues.
We're shifting the game genre from the one they signed up for, to one they may or may not like, or might entirely hate.
I mean, they're not already doing it, after all.

So people might not enjoy it or it grows tiring over time, and it flatlines.
Enjoyment ends, objective stays. Go to medical, do not pass go, do not collect 200cr.

Because player enjoyment is the key factor here, and that's likely to go missing when we remove player agency.
With forced objectives, we're doubly responsible for having the people we're doing this with enjoy them.
If we're not letting people just walk off, to finish the thing and hit the bricks.
To give them the chance to "yes, and", rather than say it for them.
Then we're failing at roleplay.
Cause we've failed to help our other players achieve our one prime directive:
To Have Fun.

___________________________________________________________

Fancy schmancy prose aside, or more so above, this is not a full condemnation of hypno nor brainwashing. I do think it can be done well, and I like the concept of such things.
This write-up is an attempt at presenting the framework I use for roleplay, the lens through which I view it, whether that's the dramatic in-person kind or the 2d pixel sprite with awful fashion sense hopping around on the screen shouting about your mail over comms.
Presenting it in hopes of giving insight into what I think is going wrong, and thus what I think would need to be accounted for to make progress.
That is, to make sure affected players are enjoying it, or otherwise not removing their agency in the matter.
Whether that's by roleplay leading up to it, or making sure the prompts have sane end clauses and plenty of freedom.

We all know it:
The M in Manuel stands for, well, Manuel.
Like from Fawlty Towers.
But it's also a Multiplayer roleplaying game we're playing here. So we need to keep our co-players' enjoyment in mind.

[Witherael]

Fancy schmancy prose aside, or more so above, this is not a full condemnation of hypno nor brainwashing. I do think it can be done well, and I like the concept of such things.
This write-up is an attempt at presenting the framework I use for roleplay, the lens through which I view it, whether that's the dramatic in-person kind or the 2d pixel sprite with awful fashion sense hopping around on the screen shouting about your mail over comms.
Presenting it in hopes of giving insight into what I think is going wrong, and thus what I think would need to be accounted for to make progress.
That is, to make sure affected players are enjoying it, or otherwise not removing their agency in the matter.
Whether that's by roleplay leading up to it, or making sure the prompts have sane end clauses and plenty of freedom.

We all know it:
The M in Manuel stands for, well, Manuel.
Like from Fawlty Towers.
But it's also a Multiplayer roleplaying game we're playing here. So we need to keep our co-players' enjoyment in mind.

I find it rare that I'm able to write a hypnosis objective that both is fun for the victim and interesting for the round. I find that captivation of my victims is directly correlated to the amount of antag status given, which typically runs contradictory to my plans and ideas. In the end, every objective would need to boil down to either obey my orders or you are evil to really have any hope of trauma retention. What I seek is a middle ground between the engaging and overdone and the creative and vexing. I don't know if this is achievable through better objectives or clearer policy or what have you, but I want to be able to share my ideas and have people enjoy them just as much as me. Clearly, for one reason or another, that isn't the case, but I do value your insight on it.

[Redbert]

In the end, every objective would need to boil down to either obey my orders or you are evil to really have any hope of trauma retention.

This is the issue you're having, you're focusing on retaining the hypnosis.
Let me help you with this. From your previous hypnosis objectives.
Build a pokemon center in departures and then heal pets or go to the chapel and decorate it to look like a ritual site and then follow my orders.
What a stunning figure! You must simply draw Johnny Witherspoon and hang the canvas on the walls of the library! Only hang up each picture once so other can contribute to the Johnny Witherspoon Art museum! If you finish, you should make more art of him!
Just a bunch of things really, and the end is usually just when the trauma is cured, instead of when an objective is fully completed.

I'll restate this. The issue isn't from the objectives, it's the passive and ongoing nature of the objectives.
If it is not causing harm to the station or crew, people have no incentive to stop it. Most will not stop it. It is a weird situation on manny that I'm not sure if I can intervene in. I am able to help my fellow crew if I see them being harmed, but they're not being harmed. Wouldn't it be weird to have a med doc running around with a health analyzer looking for hypnosis trauma? It's a job for security, right, but is security really going to deal with it if there are more important threats on the station?
That said, if there is no specified end, this forced objective continues for the remainder of the round. They cannot ghost, they cannot ignore it, they cannot look to be cured, they are stuck doing this passive activity for the next 40 minutes under the threat of OOC punishment.

This is not hypothetical behavior. You have run crab phone + hypnosis grenade into the ground, repeating just about every time you roll traitor. The situation is the same every time you do it

I guarentee that you will receive far more support if you follow this simple advice

[Witherael]

In the end, every objective would need to boil down to either obey my orders or you are evil to really have any hope of trauma retention.

This is the issue you're having, you're focusing on retaining the hypnosis.
Let me help you with this. From your previous hypnosis objectives.
Build a pokemon center in departures and then heal pets or go to the chapel and decorate it to look like a ritual site and then follow my orders.
What a stunning figure! You must simply draw Johnny Witherspoon and hang the canvas on the walls of the library! Only hang up each picture once so other can contribute to the Johnny Witherspoon Art museum! If you finish, you should make more art of him!
Just a bunch of things really, and the end is usually just when the trauma is cured, instead of when an objective is fully completed.

I'll restate this. The issue isn't from the objectives, it's the passive and ongoing nature of the objectives.
If it is not causing harm to the station or crew, people have no incentive to stop it. Most will not stop it. It is a weird situation on manny that I'm not sure if I can intervene in. I am able to help my fellow crew if I see them being harmed, but they're not being harmed. Wouldn't it be weird to have a med doc running around with a health analyzer looking for hypnosis trauma? It's a job for security, right, but is security really going to deal with it if there are more important threats on the station?
That said, if there is no specified end, this forced objective continues for the remainder of the round. They cannot ghost, they cannot ignore it, they cannot look to be cured, they are stuck doing this passive activity for the next 40 minutes under the threat of OOC punishment.

This is not hypothetical behavior. You have run crab phone + hypnosis grenade into the ground, repeating just about every time you roll traitor. The situation is the same every time you do it

I guarentee that you will receive far more support if you follow this simple advice

While I agree that the amount of players willing to cooperate will increase, it then becomes a problem of not getting enough TC value. If the objective is to make a ritual in the chapel, and then its done and everyone goes home without anything interesting happening, then its an utter waste too. For context to anyone unfamiliar, the hypnosis referred to is generally some variation of 'You are a ritualist of the space wizard federation. You have been tasked to work with your follow ritualists to ascend Johnny Witherspoon into Wizard-hood. Succeed and serve the new wizard, or fail and X. The ritual will take place at X.' If I ran that hypnosis and the ritual that obviously won't work doesn't work, absolutely nothing happens, and that's even worse than some players beelining to medbay in bad faith hoping not to be caught. Especially because something like a hypnogrenade makes you very valid to hunt, as the assumption is that it could be anything and that every victim will comply, from securities perspective. If I spend 12 TC on a hypnogrenade and 4 TC on a disable comms, then I'm basically shit out of luck and shit out of a traitor round if I can't strike the nigh impossible balance of making the objective worth its expense and making the objective fun to comply with. I feel like it shouldn't be up to me as a traitor to go hire a lawyer every shift to create a hypnosis to appease the people who don't want to be hypnotized and break the rules to go against it AND have an in character motivation for the specific objective AND have it be interesting AND be something that I as the traitor enjoy as well. I believe that all parties need to exercise some better faith and allow things to play out a bit more without having a list of OOC demands that I need to follow in character to prevent them from disconnecting or ghosting or ignoring it or getting it healed in bad faith. That isn't what the dynamic is supposed to be like.

[dendydoom]

What kinds of hypnosis commands are we talking about here?

I'll typically do one involving some form of construction followed by a task relating to said construction, like build a pokemon center in departures and then heal pets or go to the chapel and decorate it to look like a ritual site and then follow my orders. I might also do something more gimmicky, like needing to keep the NAD unsecure or necessitating that you only communicate in muscle man style my mom jokes ala 'You know who else wants the shuttle called? MY MOM!'. Just a bunch of things really, and the end is usually just when the trauma is cured, instead of when an objective is fully completed. I do sometimes make more fully dedicated objectives that could be completed, but I don't often get a chance to use them just because I favor the hypnogrenade over brainwashing or hypnoflashing, and its kind of a one and done deal.

how often have you been trying to do these sorts of gimmicks on the same server?

when you ask people to build things, do you give them any direction at all? do you help them and stay with them while they do it so you're both working together? is the gimmick a means to an end within the round for you personally, and are their efforts supporting your eventual goal?

generally, yes, people who are caught trying to get out of their hypnosis objectives by conveniently being detected instead of doing their objectives is questionable.

but often antags have one of two things in mind: either to gain some sort of antagonistic victory condition for their antag round, or to use antag status to be able to do a gimmick with the crew.

being brainwashed in a way that forces them to do menial tasks which don't support either of these endeavours: either victory or supporting an interesting gimmick will probably feel like a waste of time. any sane person would not want to invest the energy into doing this for you for their whole round. if you brainwashed me and set the objective as "build the arc de triomphe in evac" 20 minutes into a round and then walked off i would not even know where to begin or why you would even want me to do this. this is likely compounded by seeing repeated attempts at the same hypnosis gimmicks.

[Blacklist897]

witheral once did the hypnonade thing three times in like two days

[Witherael]

What kinds of hypnosis commands are we talking about here?

I'll typically do one involving some form of construction followed by a task relating to said construction, like build a pokemon center in departures and then heal pets or go to the chapel and decorate it to look like a ritual site and then follow my orders. I might also do something more gimmicky, like needing to keep the NAD unsecure or necessitating that you only communicate in muscle man style my mom jokes ala 'You know who else wants the shuttle called? MY MOM!'. Just a bunch of things really, and the end is usually just when the trauma is cured, instead of when an objective is fully completed. I do sometimes make more fully dedicated objectives that could be completed, but I don't often get a chance to use them just because I favor the hypnogrenade over brainwashing or hypnoflashing, and its kind of a one and done deal.

how often have you been trying to do these sorts of gimmicks on the same server?

when you ask people to build things, do you give them any direction at all? do you help them and stay with them while they do it so you're both working together? is the gimmick a means to an end within the round for you personally, and are their efforts supporting your eventual goal?

generally, yes, people who are caught trying to get out of their hypnosis objectives by conveniently being detected instead of doing their objectives is questionable.

but often antags have one of two things in mind: either to gain some sort of antagonistic victory condition for their antag round, or to use antag status to be able to do a gimmick with the crew.

being brainwashed in a way that forces them to do menial tasks which don't support either of these endeavours: either victory or supporting an interesting gimmick will probably feel like a waste of time. any sane person would not want to invest the energy into doing this for you for their whole round. this is likely compounded by seeing repeated attempts at the same hypnosis gimmicks.

once a week, more or less

I specify what I want built when I want something specific, but I usually don't so I leave it to interpretation beyond the idea

I am the latter, though I consider successfully using the horrible hypnogrenade item as a win in its own right

some people have the impression that I very literally make people act like statues, and this is not true. I'd define the types of objectives I do into three categories. The first is construction followed by a task relating to said construction, flavored appropriately. The second is more of an antagonist status, with a predefined goal that isn't necessarily doable, but still leads to interesting roleplay scenarios. The third is throwaway gimmick hypnosis, which I usually reserve for less important things like bitrunning enhanced interrogation hijinks or abductor brainwashing/orders.

For the hypnogrenade, a 12 TC item that hypnotizes an area of effect with a singular message, I typically opt for a construction style gimmick, because they translate the easiest, but occasionally find a good antagonist style objective I can use that works with a crowd.

For the hypnoflash, a 7 TC item that hypnotizes a singular target, I'll do a wide assortment of different objectives primarily between antagonist style and gimmick style, but venturing towards construction style should I find it reasonable enough to do.

For brainwashing, available through a 5 TC data disk, but restricted to a small number of roles, I'll typically stick closer to antagonist style objectives, and may potentially stack multiple objectives because that's something brainwashing can do.

An example of each style of objective is provided here.

CONSTRUCTION: Cover the station in dangerous kudzu. Help your fellow crewmates become a pod person. Become a pod person. In that order.

ANTAGONIST: You are the baron of the station, fabulously wealthy and powerful, but the crew has turned against you. You must make a deal with the devil and ascend into greater power as a lich!

GIMMICK: You must train for the tournament! Don't forget to wear your martial arts gi and develop your fighting technique! The tournament begins when the shift has lasted for 50 minutes.

I do also have a few simply flavored 'obey my orders' objectives, nothing too special beyond giving a general idea of what is expected of them.

OBEY: As you blink the flash out of your eyes, you come to a realization. You have potential, and Johnny Witherspoon has recognized it. He will uplift your corporeal form into that of an ash drake, in exchange only for your servitude.

[Witherael]

witheral once did the hypnonade thing three times in like two days

this does not account for me failing, you'd be surprised how difficult and awkward it is to use

[Isratosh]

CONSTRUCTION: Cover the station in dangerous kudzu. Help your fellow crewmates become a pod person. Become a pod person. In that order.

ANTAGONIST: You are the baron of the station, fabulously wealthy and powerful, but the crew has turned against you. You must make a deal with the devil and ascend into greater power as a lich!

Surely you must recognize the difference between these two directives.

The first is clear, has defined objectives, an accomplishable end state, and sounds to me like it may actually be fun. It is simple to understand and a victim can begin working on it immediately - assuming you have some kudzu seeds to give them. It gives a victim an excuse to act like an antagonist and bring danger to the crew while interacting with actual game mechanics.

The second is completely abstract and means essentially nothing - it is not possible for anybody other than a wizard to become a lich. There is no objective, no goal, no accomplishable end state, no direction. You are attempting to force a group of random strangers to come up with random bullshit to appease your appetite for bullshit. I wouldn't know what to do if I received this directive.

Several of the other directives detailed in this thread feel a lot like the second one. These are the ones that people are going to walk away from and I will not be blaming them.


Edit, addendum: As far as the rules go and why we have hypnosis and brainwashing as a game mechanic: the directive has to be compelling. A victim has to want to follow along and do what you say, with the goal being to have fun. Yes, you are forcing them into it and therefore, like cult and revolution, they are being forced to help you. But in these gamemodes, being a member of the antagonist team is fun. If I am faced with a lame hypnosis objective that doesn't sound fun to do, why in the hell would I even try to do it? There is nothing keeping me continuing to play the game other than... an OOC threat of being banned? What am I even doing with my time right now? Are you preying on the players who are hopelessly addicted, whose only reason for going along with your gimmick is the threat of being removed from their favourite game? This is why it is impossible for me as an admin to "do my job" and "enforce the rules" in this situation - it would be making a lame situation even lamer for all involved but you.

[Witherael]

CONSTRUCTION: Cover the station in dangerous kudzu. Help your fellow crewmates become a pod person. Become a pod person. In that order.

ANTAGONIST: You are the baron of the station, fabulously wealthy and powerful, but the crew has turned against you. You must make a deal with the devil and ascend into greater power as a lich!

Surely you must recognize the difference between these two directives.

The first is clear, has defined objectives, an accomplishable end state, and sounds to me like it may actually be fun. It is simple to understand and a victim can begin working on it immediately - assuming you have some kudzu seeds to give them. It gives a victim an excuse to act like an antagonist and bring danger to the crew while interacting with actual game mechanics.

The second is completely abstract and means essentially nothing - it is not possible for anybody other than a wizard to become a lich. There is no objective, no goal, no accomplishable end state, no direction. You are attempting to force a group of random strangers to come up with random bullshit to appease your appetite for bullshit. I wouldn't know what to do if I received this directive.

Several of the other directives detailed in this thread feel a lot like the second one. These are the ones that people are going to walk away from and I will not be blaming them.

I suppose an adequate renaming of the two could be 'do this' and act this way' respectively, where gimmick could fall into either of the two and obey is a more direct and applicable 'do this'. I personally have no objections to ignoring the devil shit cause its just minor motivation and isn't meant to be tangibly done anyways, but ignoring the whole package is something else.

[BonChoi]

Without a formal end to the objective, a bad hypnosis objective might as well be as good as round removing someone. Recently I spent over an hour in a round on manny with the hypnosis objective "for the love of GOD can someone please clean the chapel" and I did clean the chapel, but at what point does the hypnosis objective become nullified? I still have it even after cleaning the chapel, so do I have to keep cleaning the chapel? My solution was to loudly announce to everyone over that "The chapel has to be CLEAN for the love of GOD" while obsessively cleaning the chapel until someone at least came to check on me and free me from the repetitive hell that is having a hypnosis objective. And that was with an "achievable" goal, I can't imagine what it would be like if my objective had been something stupid like "Fuck." or another one worded or shittily worded objective. What the fuck am I supposed to do with that kind of objective? Might as well be dead, because I can't go to medbay to get it fixed, and in reality I can't really do ANYTHING.

[Witherael]

Without a formal end to the objective, a bad hypnosis objective might as well be as good as round removing someone. Recently I spent over an hour in a round on manny with the hypnosis objective "for the love of GOD can someone please clean the chapel" and I did clean the chapel, but at what point does the hypnosis objective become nullified? I still have it even after cleaning the chapel, so do I have to keep cleaning the chapel? My solution was to loudly announce to everyone over that "The chapel has to be CLEAN for the love of GOD" while obsessively cleaning the chapel until someone at least came to check on me and free me from the repetitive hell that is having a hypnosis objective. And that was with an "achievable" goal, I can't imagine what it would be like if my objective had been something stupid like "Fuck." or another one worded or shittily worded objective. What the fuck am I supposed to do with that kind of objective? Might as well be dead, because I can't go to medbay to get it fixed, and in reality I can't really do ANYTHING.

It doesn't sound like you were intentionally hypnotized, but it does raise an important question to hypnosis policy specifically, being that hypnosis is not always intended, nor is it always coherent. I don't know what the official stance is in times like that, but I imagine just acting in good faith like you did is the short of it.

[BonChoi]

Without a formal end to the objective, a bad hypnosis objective might as well be as good as round removing someone. Recently I spent over an hour in a round on manny with the hypnosis objective "for the love of GOD can someone please clean the chapel" and I did clean the chapel, but at what point does the hypnosis objective become nullified? I still have it even after cleaning the chapel, so do I have to keep cleaning the chapel? My solution was to loudly announce to everyone over that "The chapel has to be CLEAN for the love of GOD" while obsessively cleaning the chapel until someone at least came to check on me and free me from the repetitive hell that is having a hypnosis objective. And that was with an "achievable" goal, I can't imagine what it would be like if my objective had been something stupid like "Fuck." or another one worded or shittily worded objective. What the fuck am I supposed to do with that kind of objective? Might as well be dead, because I can't go to medbay to get it fixed, and in reality I can't really do ANYTHING.

It doesn't sound like you were intentionally hypnotized, but it does raise an important question to hypnosis policy specifically, being that hypnosis is not always intended, nor is it always coherent. I don't know what the official stance is in times like that, but I imagine just acting in good faith like you did is the short of it.

I think if anything I was trying to highlight just how much it can fuck someone's round up, it was probably half of an hour of me screeching on the radio until someone finally went "hey this guy doesn't sound too good."

E: and even then I don't feel like I was really supposed to do that, I was just desperate to get back into the round again at that point.

[RedBaronFlyer]

An example I have of the kind of hypnosis things you do is this: a while back you did the crab phone + hypnogrenade combo to make everyone a fan of the black eye'd peas, IIRC it got like 10+ people. You then played music on a table in the bar. It was funny, but the issue is you then continued to just play music. Even people who were initially going with the bit began to wander off or would subtly nonsubtly do stuff in the hopes that someone would notice people were hypnotised. Only in the last few minutes of the shift, easily around 45 minutes later, did you use the whole four-ish remaining people that were going with your bit to kill some department pets. I had some fun with it for the uniqueness factor but I soured a bit when I realized this is just a thing you do constantly.

The issue is that your hypno objectives are almost always vague, incredibly boring, are incredibly long term, and force the person to stick with the bit for the whole round because they often lack a logical end point.

Unironically it would have been more merciful to just round remove them because at least then they could go do something else (be it a PAI, mop/medibot, or logging out of the game) without risking an admin getting onto them for logging out. (This is the same issue with borg factories, shocker, people who don't play borgs don't like being forced to be borgs)

The people you are hypno-flashing aren't NPCs you command like a skyrim follower or a unit in an RTS game, they are players and they want to have a good time with the game, same as you. If you want people to work on a project, set it up and ask, some people will say no, but you'd be surprised how many players are willing to drop everything and help out with a gimmick if it's interesting.

edit:
Okay, I just read everything in the supply-class chat on the manuel cord and lost any sympathy I had for you. Get over your main character syndrome Jesus H. Christ.

[Witherael]

An example I have of the kind of hypnosis things you do is this: a while back you did the crab phone + hypnogrenade combo to make everyone a fan of the black eye'd peas, IIRC it got like 10+ people. You then played music on a table in the bar. It was funny, but the issue is you then continued to just play music. Even people who were initially going with the bit began to wander off or would subtly nonsubtly do stuff in the hopes that someone would notice people were hypnotised. Only in the last few minutes of the shift, easily around 45 minutes later, did you use the whole four-ish remaining people that were going with your bit to kill some department pets. I had some fun with it for the uniqueness factor but I soured a bit when I realized this is just a thing you do constantly.

The issue is that your hypno objectives are almost always vague, incredibly boring, are incredibly long term, and force the person to stick with the bit for the whole round because they often lack a logical end point.

Unironically it would have been more merciful to just round remove them because at least then they could go do something else (be it a PAI, mop/medibot, or logging out of the game) without risking an admin getting onto them for logging out. (This is the same issue with borg factories, shocker, people who don't play borgs don't like being forced to be borgs)

The people you are hypno-flashing aren't NPCs you command like a skyrim follower or a unit in an RTS game, they are players and they want to have a good time with the game, same as you. If you want people to work on a project, set it up and ask, some people will say no, but you'd be surprised how many players are willing to drop everything and help out with a gimmick if it's interesting.

This is not how the round went at all. I got four people, and only one stuck around ever, leaving me with little recourse BUT to dance around in a bar. This is also not a fair example, because this is the very first time I ever did it at all, and it was over half a year ago. In that final stretch, one of the other guys finally showed up so I decided to get to work. Additionally, I don't know at what point this policy thread became an insult my antagonist style thread, but its clearly lost its original meaning and purpose. The fact of the matter is that no matter how boring it is, or how much you really don't wanna, its a violation of the rules, and it isn't being acted upon. I'm open to the suggestions, but what I'm not open to is the beratement and condescension I've been getting in this thread, not to point any fingers.

[RedBaronFlyer]

An example I have of the kind of hypnosis things you do is this: a while back you did the crab phone + hypnogrenade combo to make everyone a fan of the black eye'd peas, IIRC it got like 10+ people. You then played music on a table in the bar. It was funny, but the issue is you then continued to just play music. Even people who were initially going with the bit began to wander off or would subtly nonsubtly do stuff in the hopes that someone would notice people were hypnotised. Only in the last few minutes of the shift, easily around 45 minutes later, did you use the whole four-ish remaining people that were going with your bit to kill some department pets. I had some fun with it for the uniqueness factor but I soured a bit when I realized this is just a thing you do constantly.

The issue is that your hypno objectives are almost always vague, incredibly boring, are incredibly long term, and force the person to stick with the bit for the whole round because they often lack a logical end point.

Unironically it would have been more merciful to just round remove them because at least then they could go do something else (be it a PAI, mop/medibot, or logging out of the game) without risking an admin getting onto them for logging out. (This is the same issue with borg factories, shocker, people who don't play borgs don't like being forced to be borgs)

The people you are hypno-flashing aren't NPCs you command like a skyrim follower or a unit in an RTS game, they are players and they want to have a good time with the game, same as you. If you want people to work on a project, set it up and ask, some people will say no, but you'd be surprised how many players are willing to drop everything and help out with a gimmick if it's interesting.

This is not how the round went at all. I got four people, and only one stuck around ever, leaving me with little recourse BUT to dance around in a bar. This is also not a fair example, because this is the very first time I ever did it at all, and it was over half a year ago. In that final stretch, one of the other guys finally showed up so I decided to get to work. Additionally, I don't know at what point this policy thread became an insult my antagonist style thread, but its clearly lost its original meaning and purpose. The fact of the matter is that no matter how boring it is, or how much you really don't wanna, its a violation of the rules, and it isn't being acted upon. I'm open to the suggestions, but what I'm not open to is the beratement and condescension I've been getting in this thread, not to point any fingers.

You brought up the issue that people aren't following your brainwashing orders, people pointed out why they aren't following your brainwashing orders, or are following them to the most limited extent. It isn't a personal attack; it's an explanation.

The fact of the matter is that no matter how boring it is, or how much you really don't wanna, its a violation of the rules, and it isn't being acted upon

and that's what it comes down to. You are mad that the crew doesn't want to spend the whole round drawing portraits of you.

[Witherael]

It isn't a personal attack; it's an explanation.

You are mad that the crew doesn't want to spend the whole round drawing portraits of you.

Well when it isn't true, that's for sure what it looks like. I cannot overstate how little my playstyle is germane to this thread, even if it was true. I probably should have said something the first time someone brought it up, but I didn't so I'm bringing it up now.

[feaster]

There are no rules about hypnosis and it doesn't make you an antag, so right now i would be surprised if I got into trouble for ignoring it like I always have. If it is supposed to be treated like brainwashing the rules should at least say so.

[M3hillus]

CONSTRUCTION: Cover the station in dangerous kudzu. Help your fellow crewmates become a pod person. Become a pod person. In that order.

ANTAGONIST: You are the baron of the station, fabulously wealthy and powerful, but the crew has turned against you. You must make a deal with the devil and ascend into greater power as a lich!

Surely you must recognize the difference between these two directives.

The first is clear, has defined objectives, an accomplishable end state, and sounds to me like it may actually be fun. It is simple to understand and a victim can begin working on it immediately - assuming you have some kudzu seeds to give them. It gives a victim an excuse to act like an antagonist and bring danger to the crew while interacting with actual game mechanics.

The second is completely abstract and means essentially nothing - it is not possible for anybody other than a wizard to become a lich. There is no objective, no goal, no accomplishable end state, no direction. You are attempting to force a group of random strangers to come up with random bullshit to appease your appetite for bullshit. I wouldn't know what to do if I received this directive.

Several of the other directives detailed in this thread feel a lot like the second one. These are the ones that people are going to walk away from and I will not be blaming them.


Edit, addendum: As far as the rules go and why we have hypnosis and brainwashing as a game mechanic: the directive has to be compelling. A victim has to want to follow along and do what you say, with the goal being to have fun. Yes, you are forcing them into it and therefore, like cult and revolution, they are being forced to help you. But in these gamemodes, being a member of the antagonist team is fun. If I am faced with a lame hypnosis objective that doesn't sound fun to do, why in the hell would I even try to do it? There is nothing keeping me continuing to play the game other than... an OOC threat of being banned? What am I even doing with my time right now? Are you preying on the players who are hopelessly addicted, whose only reason for going along with your gimmick is the threat of being removed from their favourite game? This is why it is impossible for me as an admin to "do my job" and "enforce the rules" in this situation - it would be making a lame situation even lamer for all involved but you.

I'd argue that even if there was no MECHANICAL means for lichdom of a regular crewman, that doesn't stop one from 'trying'. The roleplay opportunities are plentiful.

-You have research to do, so maybe hang out at the library, steal the curators codex if that's still a thing.

-Probably need a ritual area, so some construction to be done.

-Acquiring a 'magical' potion that will probably kill you, interaction and convincing of chemistry, or theft and brewing yourself.

-Possibly getting acolytes to assist the ritual.

-Act with a stiff upper lip and look down on all the poors, dress accordingly.

-The crew turned against me? Maybe I can convince a few loyal members back to my fold. Money is a good option, but I need to retain my wealth so I cant be too generous.

I'd honestly rather a hypnosis that lets me be creative and gives me room to breathe than "Plant kuzu, Convert crew to plant." Especially on Manuel. Depending on the active administration on that round, you know I'll be 100% slamming that PRAY button instead of Ahelping to try get some cooky, fun and different stuff cooking in the round.

Depending on the player, things like Rev and Cult are much less enjoyable. It tanks the moment to moment roleplay quality as everyone activates neurons, and it gets stressful.

There are no rules about hypnosis and it doesn't make you an antag, so right now i would be surprised if I got into trouble for ignoring it like I always have. If it is supposed to be treated like brainwashing the rules should at least say so.

That was the purpose of the thread from what I can tell. I've been watching the discussion about this go down on the manuelcord for the past few days, and Witherael has valid points to be made.

Hypno isnt an easy thing (I haven't managed to figure out how not to fumble it constantly), so when you get someone, SUCCESSFULLY and they ignored it, I think one would be rightfully upset.

[Yulice]

At this point we're just introducing another silicon policy tier of bullshit to have to keep in mind for this game it seems like; personally I'd argue for the flat out removal of hypnoflash and hypno grenades, or reworking them into being a lot more stock usable, ie flash someone and they are given antag datum and "You are now a syndicate agent under [flasher's] employ, follow their orders"

[Witherael]

At this point we're just introducing another silicon policy tier of bullshit to have to keep in mind for this game it seems like; personally I'd argue for the flat out removal of hypnoflash and hypno grenades, or reworking them into being a lot more stock usable, ie flash someone and they are given antag datum and "You are now a syndicate agent under [flasher's] employ, follow their orders"

I am not entirely against this idea, so long as the hypnogrenade gives antag hud aswell, but that's for a coder thread.

[vaporwhisp]

I also don't understand how you can group hypnosis people, force them to do a weird wacky ritual, and consider that "nothing happening". Sounds like an opportunity to pray to make something happen; but I'd argue that the ritual is the THING that is happening.

Also, I don't understand your level of investment in these objectives to begin with? You clearly feel that people going along with your hypnosis is important to you, hence the thread. But it's not so important to you that you plan things out at all, nor do you supervise/give instruction on your builds? Is the point to try to distract a chunk of the crew? I just feel like if you consider people doing your funny task is important, the onus on making your gimmick successful is on you, because assuming good faith play from everyone, they still need instruction.

Assume I am an Assistant with only the jumpsuit on my back, fresh off the arrivals shuttle. You have hypnotised me to "build mcdonalds outside virology" and then you walk away. Can you REALLY honestly expect me to do that with no instruction or materials or would it be more realistic that I go into maintenance to gather tools and forget about it for two hours?

[Jacquerel]

It's certainly the code intention that hypnotised victims should attempt to do what they were hypnotised to do or we wouldn't print that text to players.
A comparison to AI laws is apt: you have to do it, but you can freely interpret what the command actually means.
On the same hand, you can't force people to continue playing the video game. If someone decides that they would rather not play the game than follow your commands then no code or policy can or should stop them. This is a video game, not a job or obligation.

If you primarily make hypnosis commands which people would rather ghost or suicide or risk a ban than follow that's basically a skill issue. These people are also players, give them something to do which will help you and which they will also enjoy doing and you will have extremely low rates of people ignoring your hypnosis.

[Justice12354]

Without a formal end to the objective, a bad hypnosis objective might as well be as good as round removing someone. Recently I spent over an hour in a round on manny with the hypnosis objective "for the love of GOD can someone please clean the chapel" and I did clean the chapel, but at what point does the hypnosis objective become nullified? I still have it even after cleaning the chapel, so do I have to keep cleaning the chapel? My solution was to loudly announce to everyone over that "The chapel has to be CLEAN for the love of GOD" while obsessively cleaning the chapel until someone at least came to check on me and free me from the repetitive hell that is having a hypnosis objective. And that was with an "achievable" goal, I can't imagine what it would be like if my objective had been something stupid like "Fuck." or another one worded or shittily worded objective. What the fuck am I supposed to do with that kind of objective? Might as well be dead, because I can't go to medbay to get it fixed, and in reality I can't really do ANYTHING.

No one would ever punish you for cleaning the Chapel and then knocking off

[dendydoom]

brainwashing/hypnosis objectives should support the antag in some way in their ultimate goal. objectives which exist to waste time or perform menial, unfun or repetitive tasks with no clear end goal or end state should be ahelped to get a second opinion on how their objectives should be completed.

rules on not intentionally getting caught in order to have your brain trauma removed are unchanged.