[POLL] Ghosting

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:45 am #102167

It strikes me as odd that we allow ghosting. My problem with it is really that it can be used to escape perma/sanitarium, where people have taken time to remove you from the round likely due to you either being a caught antagonist or a shitter, and then your ghost is able to rejoin the round as a posibrain/golem. Going catatonic to escape Security custody and being able to get right back into the round with posibrains, golems, and even worse, antagonist rolls, is pretty stupid. It is distinctly unpleasant to go through the effort of catching a particularly unruly criminal and putting them away, only to have them allowed to escape their body and rejoin the round in another (potentially very powerful and significant form: Ninjas, Aliens, posibrains in mechs/AI/borgs).

I put this in policy discussion because it seemed more suiting than feedback.

Personally, I think we should keep ghosting - But ghosted ghosts should have some sort of flag that prevents them from rejoining the round in any shape sans admin intervention.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:48 am #102168

Is there a way to code a solution where if you ghost while inside anywhere inside security forfeits your ability to return to the round? The problem there however is that you'll likely get more people ghosting when they've been captured by security if they know of this.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:51 am #102170

Steelpoint wrote:Is there a way to code a solution where if you ghost while inside anywhere inside security forfeits your ability to return to the round? The problem there however is that you'll likely get more people ghosting when they've been captured by security if they know of this.

This is why ghosting, ever, in general, should in my opinion restrict you from potential respawn.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:21 am #102175

I thought ghosting while alive prevented you from rejoining the round?

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:25 am #102176

Scones wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Is there a way to code a solution where if you ghost while inside anywhere inside security forfeits your ability to return to the round? The problem there however is that you'll likely get more people ghosting when they've been captured by security if they know of this.
This is why ghosting, ever, in general, should in my opinion restrict you from potential respawn.

"Ever, in general" is going to make golem runes difficult, because those require ghosts.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:30 am #102178

The crux of what is being suggested is that if you ghost, or possible suicide, your disallowed from rejoining the round unless a admin ticks a box allowing you to do so.

However dying in any other capacity won't impede you from rejoining the round.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:34 am #102179

Technically speaking, getting mad that a player ghosted and came back in another form is metagrudging. They aren't the same entity, you aren't supposed to connect those dots (and they aren't supposed to either).

Also you guys begged for more ways back into the round when people die then get mad when people are tempted into dying so they can use those methods you asked for? What?

Tokiko2 · Post by **Tokiko2** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:43 am #102182

I can't quite understand the reasoning behind this. Being executed by security or suiciding in perma is fine, but ghosting if you get trapped somehow is not?

Post by **oranges** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:00 am #102186

Bad idea, security arrests should be and remain IC punishments only

Post by **Vekter** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:43 am #102190

oranges wrote:Bad idea, security arrests should be and remain IC punishments only

If someone gets caught being an antag, their round is effectively over. I see no reason they shouldn't be able to re-enter as a golem.

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:45 am #102191

If you ghost in security custody and you're an antag, it means you tried to do something risky to spice things up on the station but ended up getting caught. You, the player, shouldn't be punished for that, because risky things are what antags are supposed to do.

If you ghost in security custody and you're not an antag, it means you were probably being a low-level shitter and you got put away so that you'd stop annoying people. You shouldn't be rewarded for that with an antag pick.

I would support the code making this distinction.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:57 am #102193

A 'risky' action as a antag could just be something as simple as failing to shoot someone.

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:18 am #102194

So, when you are thrown into perma, you are supposed to stare at the wall, lest you somehow manage to get back into round because that would be terrible.

How about no. Just punish people if they metagame/metagrudge. Don't blanket punish everyone. What if HoS is a shithead and puts people into perma? What if you get trapped there due to an explosion?

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:43 am #102197

Kelenius wrote:So, when you are thrown into perma, you are supposed to stare at the wall, lest you somehow manage to get back into round because that would be terrible.

How about no. Just punish people if they metagame/metagrudge. Don't blanket punish everyone. What if HoS is a shithead and puts people into perma? What if you get trapped there due to an explosion?

This is next to impossible to enforce, especially with the amount of people who meta communicate and aren't retarded enough to make it obvious.

Post by **oranges** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:50 am #102198

Also perma is literally a fate worse than death

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

This is a terrible idea, and I clicked the wrong Poll option too.

This is just the ol' "AMG HE DIDNT W-W-WANNA LOOKAT A WALL FOR SIXTY MINUTES AND WENT TO GO WATCH THE CLOWN REMOVE PLEASE" that crops up now and again. Nothing new to see here.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:24 am #102206

This is not disallowing you from ghosting, it just means if you ghost while still alive you won't get picked for a antag slot or be able to enter a positronic brain/golum rune/drone shell/etc.

Actionb · Post by **Actionb** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:29 am #102209

Killing yourself without explicitly suiciding/ghosting is only impossible if you are being kept cuffed (or in a straight jacket). Short of an antag using you as a torture victim or you being too impatient to resist out of cuffs, there's no way you can't just beat yourself into crit + succumb.
In short: you can't stop a convict from ghosting. So stop trying to invent a policy that would require a paid lawyer in order to work.

If there's a shitler repeatedly ghosting out of perma just to fuck up your round, ahelp it. That's what admins are for, handling issues that became OOC from initially being IC: You arrested Shitler McAss for IC reasons, but he comes back as Golem 832 with OOC knowledge to keep on being a tit.

Perma'ing somebody to penalize the player (although some players really deserve it) behind the character is an OOC reason in and of itself. You shouldn't really think this way.

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

Do we actually need ghosting?

Suicide and beating yourself to death sure, but ghosting is a weird thing.

I'm not about to remove ghosting I'm just wishfully imagining shitlers being less inclined to be cunts if the final consequence could be being strapped in the loony bin with no way out.

TheNightingale · Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:38 am

Ghosting is a purely OOC action, whilst suicide is more IC. If someone commits suicide, they're dead, but can be brought back with enough effort. You might commit suicide because of RP reasons, like "I'm that syndicate guy's target and if I don't commit suicide he'll kill everyone", et cetera...

...whereas ghosting is an OOC indication that you won't be playing as that character for the rest of the round, for whatever reason. Sure, it might be because you've been thrown in perma, or it might be because you've reached a satisfying conclusion to your solo space adventure and feel like talking to deadchat without committing suicide (which inherently leaves a dead body, and all the problems that come with it).

There's nothing wrong with ghosting in itself when compared to committing suicide; they just indicate a different level of 'I'm out'. If someone ghosts in perma, good, that means they can't try and escape. If they use knowledge of their past character as a golem (etc)? Adminhelp and ding dong bannu.

peoplearestrange · Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:10 pm

The thing is people need a way to choose if they want to leave a character/round.
It can be frustrating being perma'd for legitimate reasons really early on in the game and then having to just watch.
In the same way as admins try to bring ghosts back into the round or end the round if their are lots waiting, there shouldn't really be a bias over who is chosen.

I mean dying early and being perma'd early are unfortunate consequences of the game, but why should we reward one set of people and punish the other. You have no idea what in game actions have lead to that point.

For example: death can often be from antags "going loud", perma could be more likely antags being caught in the act of something sneakier and such. Why reward the loud option over the sneeky but bad luck?

Most people are capable of understanding and obeying the 'New life rule' so it shouldn't really be an issue in that context.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:12 pm #102227

Lets face facts,

It is retarded that I can try to go loud in the first 20 seconds, get caught and perma'd and then immediately ghost out and go play as something else.

I fucked up, the majority don't get a second chance so why should I when I already had antag.

Doritos · Post by **Doritos** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:19 pm #102229

>oh no my rule-enabled grief isn't sticking make them be out FOREVER

lmao holy shit

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:22 pm #102230

Doritos wrote:>oh no my rule-enabled grief isn't sticking make them be out FOREVER

lmao holy shit

Hell at least make antags that round blacklisted from random antags for the remainder.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:24 pm #102232

I'm fine with people ghosting in custody. Means I won't have to deal with them down the line. There's no satisfaction in punishing a person that isn't greater enhanced by that person essentially executing themselves.

As for them being able to get back into the round, so what? So long as they don't end up playing the same character, that's fine. The most common ways to reenter, drones cyborgs and golems, all have potentially very strict lawsets (although some scientists do say 'golem, be free').

Equally, they all have major disadvantages. Cyborgs don't have hands, drones can't interact with beings, golems are slower (this is a really big deal if we're thinking about greytiding) and can't use guns. The other options, things like ninja and alien, are pretty rare and I'm not really that bothered because they're not greytiding positions. They're powerful positions, sure, but they have strict objectives.

Nobody is going to greytide from the dead, and if they were mean as an antag, who cares? That's just good antagging. Any ghost has the same opportunities: it's not like "most people don't get second chances": we all get second chances. This is fine and I see absolutely no reason why that should change.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:39 pm #102238

Cheimon wrote:I'm fine with people ghosting in custody. Means I won't have to deal with them down the line. There's no satisfaction in punishing a person that isn't greater enhanced by that person essentially executing themselves.

My favorite thing was watching a mad greyshirt kill himself just outside the brig,
(F) [Security] Frank Weast says, "Bill, I am brigging this man's corpse for the crime of being a big fat baby on the station"
(F) [Security] Jim Ebola says, "Thats the worst crime possible"

But yeah really, dragging a dude to the brig and he goes braindead? Hell yeah less work, shove him in the ward or the airlock if you're feeling fancy.

QuartzCrystal · Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:59 pm

I have issue with people ghosting in custody, but I do not have issue with them rejoining the round. I like the RP that plays out (albeit increasingly rarely) when a noteworthy antag is finally brought into the brig, I think people should be forced to wait until they're executed or thrown in perma to then suicide.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:09 pm #102277

I suppose admins could tag the more infamous antags of the round as unable to ghost out, so when they're caught they're forced to be in the round.

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:23 pm #102291

What about those who ghost when captured by someone other than sec because they're antag, such as those that ghost when captured by a cult or shadowling, or those that ghost when held by, or sealed away somewhere, by an antag?

I'm guilty of ghosting due to shadowling, but that's because I hate being a thrall only to later explode and get nothing out of what I did helping. There's no reward for it other than letting someone go full murderboner as a god. Granted, I also understand I'm removing myself from the round so I don't think there should be a punishment for it. I'm just talking of other cases than "Sec capture antag, antag ghosts." There are many other reasons someone may choose to give up the ghost.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:26 pm #102292

There is some precedent for banning people from antag roles during team antags if they intentionally fuck over/get caught and ghost immediately.
Most notable examples are people ghosting immediately once they get loyalty implanted during Rev/Gang or go out of their way to get the implant removed to get reconverted.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:29 pm #102293

Ghosting is absolutely necessary for people who actually have lives outside 2D spessmen and may have to stop playing 2D spessmen because said real lives interfere. This isn't Poopsock Wizard Simulator 2555. If people abuse ghosting to roll for antag again or screw over team antags, BAN THEIR ASS and don't ruin ghosting for the rest of us.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:30 pm #102295

Security's obsession with removing players from the round is ridiculous.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:31 pm #102296

bandit wrote:Ghosting is absolutely necessary for people who actually have lives outside 2D spessmen and may have to stop playing 2D spessmen because said real lives interfere. This isn't Poopsock Wizard Simulator 2555.

You can just stop playing. People ghost out when caught and stay in the game observing/waiting to be pulled back into the round.

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:15 pm #102305

Ghosting stops you being picked for stuff that doesn't require a confirmation, like alien or wizard. You can still enter a positronic brain.

Post by **Jacquerel** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:18 pm #102308

If people can't ghost while alive in perma they'll just beat themselves with objects until dead and then ghost, won't really change very much.

Not-Dorsidarf · Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:12 pm

Jacquerel wrote:If people can't ghost while alive in perma they'll just beat themselves with objects until dead and then ghost, won't really change very much.

And if you remove harmful objects from perma, they can just punch themselves to death.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:25 pm #102324

Ikarrus wrote:Security's obsession with removing players from the round is ridiculous.

As the target for 85%+ of the shittery on the station can you really blame a security officer for wanting someone gone?

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:19 pm #102355

Ikarrus wrote:Security's obsession with removing players from the round is ridiculous.

Pretty much the reason why the implants, besides loyalty, are rarely used.

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:25 pm #102356

oranges wrote:Bad idea, security arrests should be and remain IC punishments only

Opting out of role-playing the second you get busted by sec is a terrible thing to do and destroys any sort of meaningful IC interaction. This behaviour ought to be punished, as it goes against the spirit of role-playing.

Ikarrus wrote:Security's obsession with removing players from the round is ridiculous.

Also, this.

The frequency at which the gulag or tracking implants are used is saddening. It's almost like sec want you to willingly commit suicide as a means of declaring defeat and acquiescence. Lethal injections/gassing/spacing are actually comparatively rare compared to the old straight-into-perma behaviour. Perhaps it's a matter of convenience?

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:26 pm #102358

Except, nobody roleplays unless on Basil.

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:26 pm #102378

>Roleplay.

Please. You can't just go and enforce heavy roleplay in this specific instance because "this is a roleplaying game". /tg/ is a very light RP.

Besides

>Being put into perma
>RP

Please.

Post by **oranges** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:41 pm #102380

invisty wrote:
oranges wrote:Bad idea, security arrests should be and remain IC punishments only
Opting out of role-playing the second you get busted by sec is a terrible thing to do and destroys any sort of meaningful IC interaction. This behaviour ought to be punished, as it goes against the spirit of role-playing.

I'm afraid I disagree completely - we don't hold people to the highest standards of roleplay, so why should we force them to suffer consequences for not engaging in a specific type of ic interaction? I like that people can choose to engage and I feel that this is a policy that would be more suited for a high roleplay server like bay.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:53 pm #102384

Coding as automatic administration is never a good idea. It's amazingly subjective and often overreaching.

If you catch a guy and he ghosts immediately, point it out. If it keeps happening, complain.

Kangaraptor · Post by **Kangaraptor** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:31 am #102424

Kelenius wrote:>Roleplay.

Please. You can't just go and enforce heavy roleplay in this specific instance because "this is a roleplaying game". /tg/ is a very light RP.

Besides

>Being put into perma
>RP

Please.

To add onto this:

/tg/ station is only 'roleplay' in the sense that you assume a 'role' when you start the game. It fulfills the barest, technical definition of the term (and even then I'd argue it barely does that).

You can't use roleplay as an excuse for punishing people - especially OOC - unless you're willing to make the whole server environment a stricter roleplay environment. You can't gimp one person or group of people because 'muh roleplays' while yourself being able to essentially act as you, the player and not your assumed character.

Not-Dorsidarf · Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:32 am

DemonFiren wrote:Except, nobody roleplays unless on Basil.

People don't actually roleplay with antags on Basil. Basil is where all the l33t powergamers hang out and chat while waiting for something to come along to be wordlessly annihilated with exploited weapons.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:04 am #102541

Dorsi, cannot tell if serious.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:15 am #102543

DemonFiren wrote:Dorsi, cannot tell if serious.

Yeah, it should be that they hang out waiting for someone who is not a friend of theirs to come along and wordlessly annihilate them.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:54 am #102549

oranges wrote:
invisty wrote:
oranges wrote:Bad idea, security arrests should be and remain IC punishments only
Opting out of role-playing the second you get busted by sec is a terrible thing to do and destroys any sort of meaningful IC interaction. This behaviour ought to be punished, as it goes against the spirit of role-playing.
I'm afraid I disagree completely - we don't hold people to the highest standards of roleplay, so why should we force them to suffer consequences for not engaging in a specific type of ic interaction? I like that people can choose to engage and I feel that this is a policy that would be more suited for a high roleplay server like bay.

I don't think it's a "high roleplay" kind of thing.

I honestly think it's rather bullshit for someone who was fucking with sec and gets caught after making the last 30 minutes miserable to then be able to immediately ghost and rejoin the round in a brain or as a random antag. If you ghost or suicide while in custody (perhaps some kind of custody implant even) then you shouldn't be able to freely go play another character.

Post by **Jacquerel** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:21 am #102561

Tornadium wrote:I honestly think it's rather bullshit for someone who was fucking with sec and gets caught after making the last 30 minutes miserable to then be able to immediately ghost and rejoin the round in a brain or as a random antag. If you ghost or suicide while in custody (perhaps some kind of custody implant even) then you shouldn't be able to freely go play another character.

Why not?
Like honestly, what is the problem with that?
Once they're perma-ed you might as well treat them as dead because there's shit-all else they are going to manage to do. If they're essentially dead, why not add them to the list of extra antag candidates?

It's not like xenos, ninjas, or other returned-ghost creatures come along every round anyway, or that they're immediately snatched up by perma prisoners every time before all the "legitimate" ghosts can get to them.
If someone is locked up in the brig they are not going to be making anyone's round more interesting, and they will be bored. If they are turned into an apprentice or a golem or whatever, they'll be having more fun, and other people will also be having more fun (they either get a minion, or they have more interesting antagonists to deal with).

Enforcing that once people get permaed they just log off and wait for the next round (except for maybe two minutes of pretending there's a point in struggling as they are brought to the escape shuttle, if security even bothers to do that) doesn't really serve anyone. It's in your interest to keep players interested so that they want to play more, and it's also in your interest for mid-round antagonists to draw from ghosts to keep the rounds interesting and surprising.

Incomptinence · Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:37 am

Ghosting is a fine way to deal with some broken situations. I would personally have my characters beat themselves into crit but then I have the same objection to suicide verbs.

Should ghosting remain as an easy out?