Security - Powergaming and Conduct

[Tornadium]

So going off my appeal : https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4232

I figure we need a thread regarding this.

What constitutes power gaming? As security where is the line drawn between meta-gaming and common knowledge?

Take my appeal for example, I was accused of metacomms for arresting 3 antagonists in one round. I was accused of meta-gaming because I stopped someone breaking into something they didn't have access to and for asking someone where they got a set of Mesons from.

Where does the line get drawn for this?

I was also accused of "TOTAL" Shitcurity with regards to my conduct. I haven't actually received any explaination as to what this means yet but I'll update OP when/if (I probably won't, i get kicked from IRC for asking) I get some kind of rundown these kind of policy issues.

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of the general TG population with regards to the conduct of security and the issue of meta-gaming/power gaming and what constitutes as crossing the line in both cases. Feel free to use my appeal as a reference point for what part of the current administration considers to be crossing the line.

[TheNightingale]

Powergaming is playing to win. It's taking off the perp's gas mask and checking it for voice-changers. It's executing the guy with the Syndicate smokes for 'enemy of the corporation'. To some extent, it's taking insulated gloves and a toolbelt, or setting up barriers in Sec maintenance, or even getting augmented as a miner. Powergaming isn't always inherently bad - it depends if it negatively impacts other people or not.
Metagaming is using OOC/out-of-game knowledge in-game. It's killing the revheads when you get told their names in deadchat. It's communicating with the observers through ouija boards and golem runes. It's dying, then going Robocop posibrain and executing your killer. Metagaming is bad.

Asking someone where they got mesons isn't metagaming; it's a perfectly innocuous question. Stunning them, taking the mesons and checking them for thermal vision is powergaming.

I'd personally say that, just like anyone, Security can't metagame. Contrary to this, they can (just like anyone) - and sometimes should, e.g. securing the Armory in a nuke-op round - powergame... to some extent. If you're executing people for having a Syndicate balloon*, you're awful Security.
Let the punishment fit the crime - if they're a non-antag causing trouble, send them to the gulag. If they're a non-murdering traitor, get their uplink code and objectives, then implant and release them (help them with the objectives, if you like). If they're a hostile changeling, burn them in the fires of Mount Doom.

*This doesn't apply if they have a Syndicate balloon, two tasers, three energy guns and a TTV bomb, and are shooting everyone.

[Malkevin]

Powergaming is grabbing all the antag objectives and stashing them just to prevent antags winning. Stun-searching people at round start randomly, when they've not done anything remotely suspect, to search their backpacks for paper/tomes/tater items is power gaming.
Powergaming is not checking someone's equipment when you suspect them of being a traitor, seeing someone run around with syndicate branded items is not power gaming and neither is arresting them for suspected syndicate collaboration. Reinforcing your department is not powergaming - its a dynamic game, don't expect everything to be exactly where it is every round.

Metagaming is exploiting the limits of the game. Calling the shuttle to confirm its rev/malf is meta, flying to where the nuke op shuttle anchor points are is meta. Metacomms is also meta.
Knowing what equipment the antags have, and what it can do, and how they can hide them, and what capabilities antags have is not meta.


This is how we did things in the old days, this is how we should continue to do them.

[Tornadium]

In your opinion what constitutes "valid cause" for a search?

[Amelius]

In your opinion what constitutes "valid cause" for a search?

Suspicion is sufficient. 'Walking in maintenance alone' isn't enough. 'Walking in maintenance alone, covered in blood with the wrong ID' is more than enough, hell, just the latter would be sufficient.

Something as odd as an atmos tech and a medical doctor, both in maintenance, one pulling the other, going to one of those inlet maintenance doors is sufficient for a search on both of them.

Basically, think of yourself in the position of a real security officer - if people are acting strangely, are out-of-department in areas where they don't have access, especially with others, and are acting like they're trying to find a private area in maintenance, it's enough to suspect that something is up. If they have access to areas they shouldn't, if they have equipment that they shouldn't (e.g. Captain's carapace or an engineering hardsuit on, say, a miner). If you have fibers that indicate a man with an atmospherics firesuit is emagging all the APCs in maintenance, it's enough for a search on any and all atmospherics technicians with an atmos firesuit, predicated on the fibers not being common enough that you'd have to search 3+ people.

It's common decency to talk before tasing, but sometimes it's not apt, depending on the crime they're accused of, or what you think they're doing. For instance, I would have probably just talked to first to that medical doctor and atmos tech if I found that they were headed to a corpse in maintenance and the atmos tech was just leading the doctor to it, rather than one of those nigh-empty 3x3 closets used solely for unscrupulous deals and changeling absorptions that they were in for far longer than an obvious 'whoops, wrong turn', or 'time to return this corpse to medbay!'. Keep in mind you are, by default, under code blue, suspicious activity alone, is sufficient rationale for a search.

I myself do not like to release traitors, non-violent or not, generally speaking, given how easy it is to sidestep the lethal implant (one or two antitox pills will remove it). That said, if I'm HoS or Captain and there's a lull, I'll offer a traitor that hadn't killed anyone, or was caught in bullshit circumstances, the chance for release by being my bodyguard by being chem and tracking implanted, instructed to stay by my side always, with the warden told to lethally inject him if I turn up dead or don't report in for a few minutes. Given that he'll never be out of my sight, he won't have the opportunity to obtain anti-tox pills, and so I feel much safer about doing that. If they have a traitor as their target, then I have no qualms with letting them kill them, being a capital crime anyway. If they want something minor from the station (i.e. a handtele), I'll usually hide it somewhere and tell them that they'll get it if I'm alive by shift's end.

In the end, everyone profits. I don't think I've been backstabbed yet, but I did let a clown mess around on-station with security gear because I did it in a time where I was overstretched deligating personnel and handling barrages of calls that no one else was available for.

[Tornadium]

I'd agree with all of that. It seems pretty sensible.

What about if someone is acting super fucking suspicious, as in loitering around a certain part of maint constantly or bolting into maint and closing the door behind them the split second an officer comes into view.

Is that a valid case for performing a search during code blue?

[Malkevin]

In your opinion what constitutes "valid cause" for a search?

Acting 'shifty'

Queuing up at the HoP or just going from A to B is a No,
Hovering around a department entrance they have no reason to be around or darting away as soon as they see The Law or yelling Anti-NT/Anti-Chain-of-Command/Other-subversive sentiments, being covered in blood, wearing the wrong jumpsuit for their ID's job, wearing someone else's ID, wearing a gas mask and being silent, are all things that green light me to check that you're not up to no good.

[Tornadium]

In your opinion what constitutes "valid cause" for a search?

Acting 'shifty'

Queuing up at the HoP or just going from A to B is a No, hovering around a department entrance they have no reason to be around or darting away as soon as they see The Law or yelling Anti-NT/Anti-Chain-of-Command/Other-subversive sentiments are all things that green light me to check you're not up to no good.

Oh good so it's not just me that thinks its super fucking obvious when a masked assistant bolts from you and closes the door behind you the split second he sees you.

[leibniz]

In your opinion what constitutes "valid cause" for a search?

With random searches disallowed at blue alert, I think the following stuff is enough for reasonable suspicion:
- Criminal activity (obviously)
- Being in an area where a crime was committed
- Matching the description of a suspect (even partially)
- Suspicious look: No ID, bad name on ID, missing from crew manifest, blood

Usually as part of an investigation, this can get extended to stuff like searching everyone with access to the area of the crime (this is logical when there are no signs of forced entry).
I'm probably missing something.

What about if someone is acting super fucking suspicious, as in loitering around a certain part of maint constantly or bolting into maint and closing the door behind them the split second an officer comes into view.

Is that a valid case for performing a search during code blue?

I'd consider this a grey area. With a certain ammount of experience you can tell who is an antagonist just by the way they move in the halls, etc.
I personally feel bad about stomping traitors that don't really know what they are doing, it is like hunting for rabbits with artillery, and it just feels better to catch people in the act or as a result of a solid investigation.
If searches happen too often for little reason, that is bad for traitors with sophisticated plans and it favors overt traitors who are not afraid of 360 noscoping every officer that looks their way.
So it is related to server culture and what kind of gameplay we want to have.
But there are counterplays, like making hidden caches and only using them when you are doing a crime, this is not something we can expect new people to execute reasonably well, and traitor is the antagonist that is most friendly to newbies.

[Actionb]

What about if someone is acting super fucking suspicious, as in loitering around a certain part of maint constantly or bolting into maint and closing the door behind them the split second an officer comes into view.

Reminds me a bit of: Constable Savage
Searching somebody solely for being shifty is horrible.
Some time ago, random searches were permitted during code blue... which screwed over oh so many antags just because they were in taser range of an officer.
It was bad. With Officer Valid McShitsec on board, it ruined everyone's round - rounds with no antags are simply boring for 90% of the crew.

There's two kinds of security:
Those that perma/execute assistants with syndicate soap because MUH VALIDS and those that allow the round to be interesting and fun for everyone by not tasecuffsearching anyone in maintenance with a gasmask. And to be honest here, you (tornadium) sound like the first kind of officer.
This isn't antagmon. You're not security to GOTTA GET THEM ALL and to find every last antag.

Let's assume you're the sketchy guy from the quote. Experienced players can smell that you're valid - but you haven't done anything criminal yet other than purchasing a syndicate tool of some sort. Along comes Officer Valid McShitsec, sporting a WEEEOOO WEEEEOOO, a baton in one hand - a taser in the other. He sees you. Of course you leg it, but to no avail. You cannot outrun the WEEEOOO. The contraband in your backpack now ends your antag round. Whatever plans you had to make the round more exciting are now foiled. All you get out of the officer is a smug 'GOTCHA' before you're bucklecuffed in a bolted perma cell.
Feels shit, doesn't it?

[Not-Dorsidarf]

What about if someone is acting super fucking suspicious, as in loitering around a certain part of maint constantly or bolting into maint and closing the door behind them the split second an officer comes into view.

Reminds me a bit of: Constable Savage
Searching somebody solely for being shifty is horrible.
Some time ago, random searches were permitted during code blue... which screwed over oh so many antags just because they were in taser range of an officer.
It was bad. With Officer Valid McShitsec on board, it ruined everyone's round - rounds with no antags are simply boring for 90% of the crew.

There's two kinds of security:
Those that perma/execute assistants with syndicate soap because MUH VALIDS and those that allow the round to be interesting and fun for everyone by not tasecuffsearching anyone in maintenance with a gasmask. And to be honest here, you (tornadium) sound like the first kind of officer.
This isn't antagmon. You're not security to GOTTA GET THEM ALL and to find every last antag.

Let's assume you're the sketchy guy from the quote. Experienced players can smell that you're valid - but you haven't done anything criminal yet other than purchasing a syndicate tool of some sort. Along comes Officer Valid McShitsec, sporting a WEEEOOO WEEEEOOO, a baton in one hand - a taser in the other. He sees you. Of course you leg it, but to no avail. You cannot outrun the WEEEOOO. The contraband in your backpack now ends your antag round. Whatever plans you had to make the round more exciting are now foiled. All you get out of the officer is a smug 'GOTCHA' before you're bucklecuffed in a bolted perma cell.
Feels shit, doesn't it?

I think you seem to have failed to notice everyone else in the thread saying they metadetect a tags based entirely off "acts like an antag", let alone actually suspicious stuff like B&E, stolen goods, fleeing officers who aren't chasing you, lurking in maint with wrong ID etc. additionally, searches are still allowed, because the round automatically elevates to Code Blue, which means IC "BAD PEOPLE ARE ABOARD OR WILL BOARD YOU SOON BE WARY AND SUSPISCIOUS".

[Actionb]

Searching somebody solely for being shifty is horrible.
...
Let's assume you're the sketchy guy from the quote. Experienced players can smell that you're valid - but you haven't done anything criminal yet other than purchasing a syndicate tool of some sort.

I think you seem to have failed to notice everyone else in the thread saying they metadetect a tags based entirely off "acts like an antag", let alone actually suspicious stuff like B&E, stolen goods, fleeing officers who aren't chasing you, lurking in maint with wrong ID etc. additionally, searches are still allowed, because the round automatically elevates to Code Blue, which means IC "BAD PEOPLE ARE ABOARD OR WILL BOARD YOU SOON BE WARY AND SUSPISCIOUS".

Read it again... never did I say I wouldn't search that random gasmask unknown dude wearing advanced magboots while also being covered in blood.

Tornadium arrested a guy for wearing mesons and running away. As it turned out, it was a traitor - but was it a justified search in the first place? Now he has opened a thread to discuss where the line for searching potential criminal lies:
People tell him it's okay to search people that are covered in blood, wrong ID etc.
I tell him it's shit to search random people that are simply 'there' and are possibly trying to avoid him (tbh, most players tend to avoid officers). These two statements do not contradict.
And as to why I think it's bad, I will just quote leibniz:

I'd consider this a grey area. With a certain ammount of experience you can tell who is an antagonist just by the way they move in the halls, etc.
I personally feel bad about stomping traitors that don't really know what they are doing, it is like hunting for rabbits with artillery, and it just feels better to catch people in the act or as a result of a solid investigation.
If searches happen too often for little reason, that is bad for traitors with sophisticated plans and it favors overt traitors who are not afraid of 360 noscoping every officer that looks their way

And yes... this is my OPINION. Not a fact. Hence why I care little for arguments like 'but everyone else in the thread'. Take it or leave it.
Your experience/gut feeling/validboner ( 'He's a villain, sir!' ) should not be considered probable cause for a search.

[Tornadium]

As this was covered in IRC last night, I'm loathe to go over it in detail again.

There was more to it than him having Mesons and him running away from us.

He was loitering around engineering maint, loitering around areas with blood trails on top of the whole running away thing.

We had an officer dressed as an assistant shadowing him for quite a while.

[Actionb]

As this was covered in IRC last night, I'm loathe to go over it in detail again.

There was more to it than him having Mesons and him running away from us.

He was loitering around engineering maint, loitering around areas with blood trails on top of the whole running away thing.

We had an officer dressed as an assistant shadowing him for quite a while.

No need to justify, this isn't strictly about you.
It's just a perfect example: some guy is ONLY acting sketchy? Don't search him. The area he's hanging out in is covered in blood? Search him.

[Malkevin]

Let's assume you're the sketchy guy from the quote. Experienced players can smell that you're valid - but you haven't done anything criminal yet other than purchasing a syndicate tool of some sort. Along comes Officer Valid McShitsec, sporting a WEEEOOO WEEEEOOO, a baton in one hand - a taser in the other. He sees you. Of course you leg it, but to no avail. You cannot outrun the WEEEOOO. The contraband in your backpack now ends your antag round. Whatever plans you had to make the round more exciting are now foiled. All you get out of the officer is a smug 'GOTCHA' before you're bucklecuffed in a bolted perma cell.
Feels shit, doesn't it?

All I can say to that is GIT GUD.

The only antags that you can excuse to be walking around with antag items are cultists, traitors on the other hand have uplinks in their PDAs which let you pop out items as and when you need them.

The other thing is don't walk like an antag, if I see a gasmasked someone walk towards me, suddenly stop, wait a few seconds, then either double back or duck into a side room its going make me think you're up to something and you've avoiding me, whereas if you just act normal and sanic straight past me I'm probably not going to think twice about you.


Fact is, if you get caught with antag items or objectives then either you have shitty luck or bad planning skills. You can always stash things after you steal them, I think traitors even get floor safe item now.

Don't complain that you got beaten because someone was better than you, think about what went wrong and what you could do better and learn from your mistakes to get better for the future.
As I said: GIT GUD!

[Incomptinence]

If you have heat yet it is low enough being caught with antag items will make a difference hide them. There are many places to hide things ID lockers (not often checked by those with access), toilets and hidden rooms etc. I don't do it myself and I think many of those who have a problem with being searched near ever do pretty much the same, keeping them on hand for instant utility is an advantage and being caught with them is the price you pay.

Searching isn't the be all and end all and changeling the antag who caries nothing that can be randomly searched other than stolen items was much less successful than those that could be caught this way.

[Tornadium]

If you have heat yet it is low enough being caught with antag items will make a difference hide them. There are many places to hide things ID lockers (not often checked by those with access), toilets and hidden rooms etc. I don't do it myself and I think many of those who have a problem with being searched near ever do pretty much the same, keeping them on hand for instant utility is an advantage and being caught with them is the price you pay.

Searching isn't the be all and end all and changeling the antag who caries nothing that can be randomly searched other than stolen items was much less successful than those that could be caught this way.

Once I know I have no immediate or further use for something I get rid of it, Too many cases where a search may be performed.

[ThanatosRa]

Jut throwing a thought out there. Does it seem reasonable or metagamey if someone is suspected of a crime or treachery by sec and the Head of Security decides to be sporting and call on the person to come in for questioning, then sends a couple officers to sweep maintenance for hidey holes and stashed gear immediately afterward? Provided the suspect actually comes in to avoid being hunted with the implication that if they don't show up they'll be set to arrest.

The suspect obviously can stash their shit somewhere, clean up and go in for questioning. If they decide not to, they're on the run and probably set up with an arrest warrant.

[callanrockslol]

Jut throwing a thought out there. Does it seem reasonable or metagamey if someone is suspected of a crime or treachery by sec and the Head of Security decides to be sporting and call on the person to come in for questioning, then sends a couple officers to sweep maintenance for hidey holes and stashed gear immediately afterward? Provided the suspect actually comes in to avoid being hunted with the implication that if they don't show up they'll be set to arrest.

The suspect obviously can stash their shit somewhere, clean up and go in for questioning. If they decide not to, they're on the run and probably set up with an arrest warrant.

Not really worth the search, plenty of places that you will never find it and if they used a smugglers satchel its hidden for good unless you pull up all the floor tiles.

[imblyings]

Seems like critical thinking skills and having initiative.

but yeah if the person hiding it is anywhere near competent it won't be found

[Tornadium]

Jut throwing a thought out there. Does it seem reasonable or metagamey if someone is suspected of a crime or treachery by sec and the Head of Security decides to be sporting and call on the person to come in for questioning, then sends a couple officers to sweep maintenance for hidey holes and stashed gear immediately afterward? Provided the suspect actually comes in to avoid being hunted with the implication that if they don't show up they'll be set to arrest.

The suspect obviously can stash their shit somewhere, clean up and go in for questioning. If they decide not to, they're on the run and probably set up with an arrest warrant.

I think it's perfectly fine, however you will find something 0.01% of the time.

There are so many places on the station you can hide shit that no one will ever find.

[ThanatosRa]

I figure it would be more of a judge the character of the suspect. While I havent' been on in awhile, it always seemed back then at least that folks would be more likely to hide or run when security was asking for them.

[CPTANT]

Searching people is usually a big hassle, you have to stun and cuff them (yes at least 50% of random people runs or attacks you if you ask) then bring them to a place where you won't be interrupted. Search all that shit and put it back and release someone again.

Searching people just isn't worth it without suspicion, so very few officers will do it if you don't walk around like an idiot with your face covered and no id.

[Luke Cox]

"Powergaming" is when security is actively hunting down traitors when it was announced to the entire station from central that an enemy force is on the station. It involves declaring the antag type once you know which it is, putting barriers and flashes up in brig, executing people who are confirmed traitors (with appropriate authorization), searching people who look sketchy and trying out items that look strange, confiscating insulated gloves from people who were caught breaking into places, etc. 99% of the time people whining about "powergaming" are antags who are mad that they got caught. You have to earn that greentext, you fucking crybabies. The legitimate grievances are more accurately described as metagaming. As others have stated, this involves securing all the antag objectives at roundstart, removing anything that has pointy edges or makes you slip from perma, incinerating sacrifice objectives, and using any advantage derived from round-based OOC information. This is unacceptable and is grounds for immediate admin intervention.

[TheNightingale]

Confiscating insulated gloves from a BnE-er isn't powergaming, it's just good form. If it's not a part of their job, and they used it for the crime, take it away so they can't do it again. (If it is a part of their job, no, you can't confiscate it... They need it, and they can easily get another too.) Neither is searching sketchy people: if you have reasonable suspicion to believe they're Up To Something, go right ahead.

Spoiler:

Mimes-The-Things has her face covered. You search her for suspicious activity! <-- This is powergaming.
Mimes-The-Things is covered in blood, wearing the wrong ID, and has a bloodied kitchen knife. You search her for suspicious activity! <-- This isn't.

[Malkevin]

If an engineer is abusing their job to break into places then you take their ID as well as their gloves and inform the HoP and CE that the engineer has been demoted.

[Luke Cox]

Confiscating insulated gloves from a BnE-er isn't powergaming, it's just good form. If it's not a part of their job, and they used it for the crime, take it away so they can't do it again. (If it is a part of their job, no, you can't confiscate it... They need it, and they can easily get another too.) Neither is searching sketchy people: if you have reasonable suspicion to believe they're Up To Something, go right ahead.

Spoiler:

Mimes-The-Things has her face covered. You search her for suspicious activity! <-- This is powergaming.
Mimes-The-Things is covered in blood, wearing the wrong ID, and has a bloodied kitchen knife. You search her for suspicious activity! <-- This isn't.

You'd be amazed at what people bitch and moan about.

[Kelenius]

IMO it would be for the best to get rid of the word 'powergaming' completely and just let people do whatever they want. Otherwise you need tens of policies like "SO can arrest and search a person if at least two of the following criteria are met". And people would bitch and complain about everything anyway. You got randomly searched and officer found an emag in your pocket? Git gud and don't spawn your items before you need them. If SO wants to be a shit about something, let him be a shit. If he wants to be a goodcurity, let him be a goodcurity.

[Saegrimr]

IMO it would be for the best to get rid of the word 'powergaming' completely and just let people do whatever they want.

Why even bother disguising items as other items then?

[Malkevin]

See someone walk around with an ebow = insta-valids
See someone walk around with a pen = not valid til they use it or your test it.

[Incomptinence]

If it is a good disguise then there are enough items that look like it that it just isn't feasible to check them all. Like how everyone knows gasmasks are suss as all get out but not every one is torn off. If the entire engineering staff and miners were kidnapped by security to be checked for thermals and paths were blocked off to force the miscellaneous staff with them randomly to be strip searched at check points that would be bad play obviously.

A better option would be to let covert gear modify its appearance to look like other comparable items, like letting the thermals change appearance to sunglasses or other similar items like regular glasses.
Voice changer could just shift between the varieties of face covering mask so we are not always looking for the basic gas mask sprite.

[Tornadium]

Something popped up in a cult round last night that I'd like an opinion on.

So we knew there were cultists, during searches we find people with paper.

Is it power gaming to link paper to cult? I mean you fucking know someone carrying paper covered in blood is a cultist but the paper alone doesn't tell you anything without understanding that paper is a disguised talisman.

I let one dude who was pretty obviously a cultist go because all he had was that blank paper, it came back to bite me in the ass later when he stun talisman'd me while I was trying to deal with another one of his buddies.

This kind of anti-powergaming mindset kinda really fucks over security, I tried playing a few rounds being as restrained and as anti-power gaming as I possibly could be. It got me killed every single time.

[Luke Cox]

Something popped up in a cult round last night that I'd like an opinion on.

So we knew there were cultists, during searches we find people with paper.

Is it power gaming to link paper to cult? I mean you fucking know someone carrying paper covered in blood is a cultist but the paper alone doesn't tell you anything without understanding that paper is a disguised talisman.

No, not at all. I feel that it's perfectly IC to know how different types of enemy organizations operate. If that logic applied to other antags, you'd never be able to declare nuke ops when you see them flying around the station.

This kind of anti-powergaming mindset kinda really fucks over security, I tried playing a few rounds being as restrained and as anti-power gaming as I possibly could be. It got me killed every single time.

And that is why the whole powergaming argument is retarded.

[Tornadium]

No, not at all. I feel that it's perfectly IC to know how different types of enemy organizations operate. If that logic applied to other antags, you'd never be able to declare nuke ops when you see them flying around the station.

I don't really get it though, we're not allowed to know that mesons can be disguised as thermals but paper that is entirely blank = valids?

Don't get me wrong I agree with you but it seems that policy on this is somewhat detached

And that is why the whole powergaming argument is retarded.

From what I saw it is utterly impossible to do your job with a modicum of success as security without some kind of power gaming.

[TheNightingale]

You're allowed to know that mesons can be disguised as thermals, but searching everyone who has mesons on is too much.
Similarly, you're allowed to know that cults use paper, but killing everyone who has blank paper is also too much. (Force-feeding them holy water, however...)

I like to think that you don't have to 'win' to have fun. It's okay if the big, bad antag gets you, so long as you both enjoyed it.

[Tornadium]

You're allowed to know that mesons can be disguised as thermals, but searching everyone who has mesons on is too much.
Similarly, you're allowed to know that cults use paper, but killing everyone who has blank paper is also too much. (Force-feeding them holy water, however...)

I like to think that you don't have to 'win' to have fun. It's okay if the big, bad antag gets you, so long as you both enjoyed it.

Well any competent cult is going to get the Chaplain as the first thing you do, without the Chaplain no holy water.

How do you do anything about it beyond mass murdering?

Eh, It's not really fun when you get stunned, stripped and spaced because you "know" someone is going to eventually try to kill you but can't act on it.

[Kelenius]

>Activate the paper in hand
>If it's not a cult paper, you are shown a blank paper
>If it is, you get a message about strange symbols

Or

>Try writing on a paper
>If you can, it's regular paper
>If you can't, it's cult paper

[Malkevin]

Cult papers used to have blood runes on them, those should be added back.

[Tornadium]

>Activate the paper in hand
>If it's not a cult paper, you are shown a blank paper
>If it is, you get a message about strange symbols

Or

>Try writing on a paper
>If you can, it's regular paper
>If you can't, it's cult paper

At one point we saw someone spawn a tome just before we tased him. Checked the paper that he dropped from his hands and it was blank. No message about strange symbols.

[Kelenius]

>Activate the paper in hand
>If it's not a cult paper, you are shown a blank paper
>If it is, you get a message about strange symbols

Or

>Try writing on a paper
>If you can, it's regular paper
>If you can't, it's cult paper

At one point we saw someone spawn a tome just before we tased him. Checked the paper that he dropped from his hands and it was blank. No message about strange symbols.

Did you click it in hand or examine? Because examine doesn't work.

[Tornadium]

>Activate the paper in hand
>If it's not a cult paper, you are shown a blank paper
>If it is, you get a message about strange symbols

Or

>Try writing on a paper
>If you can, it's regular paper
>If you can't, it's cult paper

At one point we saw someone spawn a tome just before we tased him. Checked the paper that he dropped from his hands and it was blank. No message about strange symbols.

Did you click it in hand or examine? Because examine doesn't work.

Clicked in hand.

[Kelenius]

>Activate the paper in hand
>If it's not a cult paper, you are shown a blank paper
>If it is, you get a message about strange symbols

Or

>Try writing on a paper
>If you can, it's regular paper
>If you can't, it's cult paper

At one point we saw someone spawn a tome just before we tased him. Checked the paper that he dropped from his hands and it was blank. No message about strange symbols.

Did you click it in hand or examine? Because examine doesn't work.

Clicked in hand.

We're getting offtopic buuuuut attacking itself when you are not a cultist should give you a message unless something's been SERIOUSLY changed, in which case a coder needs some slapping.

[Tornadium]

>Activate the paper in hand
>If it's not a cult paper, you are shown a blank paper
>If it is, you get a message about strange symbols

Or

>Try writing on a paper
>If you can, it's regular paper
>If you can't, it's cult paper

At one point we saw someone spawn a tome just before we tased him. Checked the paper that he dropped from his hands and it was blank. No message about strange symbols.

Did you click it in hand or examine? Because examine doesn't work.

Clicked in hand.

We're getting offtopic buuuuut attacking itself when you are not a cultist should give you a message unless something's been SERIOUSLY changed, in which case a coder needs some slapping.

I didn't get anything like that from the paper I picked up during that round from cultists (as in dudes actively murdering security with robes and shit).

[Malkevin]

Still does it:

Code: Select all

	attack_self(mob/living/user)
		[b]if(iscultist(user))[/b]
			var/delete = 1
			switch(imbue)
				/* blah blah blah, unimportant stuff removed */
//			user.take_organ_damage(5, 0)
			if(src && src.imbue!="supply" && src.imbue!="runestun")
				if(delete)
					user.drop_item(src)
					qdel(src)
			return
		[b]else
			user << "You see strange symbols on the paper. Are they supposed to mean something?"[/b]
			return

[Tornadium]

Still does it:

Code: Select all

	attack_self(mob/living/user)
		[b]if(iscultist(user))[/b]
			var/delete = 1
			switch(imbue)
				/* blah blah blah, unimportant stuff removed */
//			user.take_organ_damage(5, 0)
			if(src && src.imbue!="supply" && src.imbue!="runestun")
				if(delete)
					user.drop_item(src)
					qdel(src)
			return
		[b]else
			user << "You see strange symbols on the paper. Are they supposed to mean something?"[/b]
			return

So possible explanation as to why the paper the cultists had was all blank? Like they all had tomes and shit but not a single piece of "paper" we found any anything on it.

[Malkevin]

User error

[Cheimon]

They could have been preparing to use the paper, or have incorrectly understood the paper or something.

To be honest I'm not sure why the paper doesn't have runes on it given that nobody except the lawyer carries around paper anyway: if I find paper on someone and I'm an officer, I check it for cult braille. Anything else is madness.

[Incomptinence]

I think the reason the paper is blank is because since it spawns on the floor AIs were spotting the runed papers being shat all over the floor and getting really upset about the early detection. This is still the case with tomes so sorta half measures really.

I mean I know the starter paper needs to be held but maybe spawning things in empty off-hands could do away with the need.

[Oldman Robustin]

I'll throw in my two cents as the leading expert on powergayman and metagayman.

Powergaming = An extremely broad term for using unorthodox, robust measures to stop station antagonists. While it's typically the clarion call of dead players to complain about the people who dunked them (FUCKING FLASHBANG POWERGAME BULLSHIT), it can be a legitimate complaint when it's taken to its extreme without proper IC justification and it ruins a bunch of antag rounds without proper suspicion, but even then you've got to go pretty far as security to trigger an admin's powergame concerns - roundstart department sweeps with mandatory searches would get you bwoinked but building an army of ED209's, Beepsky, Turrets, etc. would be just fine. Powergame concerns usually focus on crew doing shit early to fuck over antags before they have a chance to effectively react to or avoid the powergaming, once its mid/late game and antags have revealed themselves you'd have to do something truly insane to get bwoinked for powergaming as security (there's still plenty you can do to trigger rule 1 though).

Metagaming = Generally refers to using knowledge that your "character" would not or could not possess in order to gain an advantage. Information you got as a ghost from being dead, from a friend over skype, or just as a matter of experience (Oldman Robustin always makes a hidden base behind test science), etc. It can even be in the form of metafriends who don't explicitly communicate outside of the game, but have formed a pattern of behavior with one another whether its giving each other favors that are not justifiable IC (e.g. One plays HoP and gives huge amounts of access to the metafriend on a regular basis) or having certain "tells" in their behavior used to signal things to one another (e.g. we always meet in the bar at roundstart and if someone doesn't show up then it's because they're an antag and I will avoid their department). Contrary to what some people are saying, spacing/hiding/destroying antag objectives early on is definitely metagaming and not powergaming. Even if code blue tells you there are enemies aboard the station, arbitrarily destroying or safeguarding certain items due to knowledge of typical antag objectives is completely meta.

Knowledge of enemy tactics, items, and behavior is not meta is most cases though. Especially as security. My test is generally "Could a security officer have been given this information during training?", if yes then not meta, if no then meta. As far as I'm concerned the entire syndicate arsenal is something security would be aware of and arresting someone for running across wet floors is justifiable, the only issue with acting against people with syndicate items is Rule 1 and how much you're allowed to punish them for being possession of such gear. If someone only had noslips and nothing else and claims they found them sitting on the ground in escape... even if its not particularly believable you'd be violating Rule 1 if you tossed them in perma as an enemy of the station without any other evidence. Same story with balloons, syndie soap, etc. You can justify a search of someone with soap bearing an enemy corporation's logo, but if the search turns up nothing and they're excuse for possessing it isn't "BECAUSE IM A TRAITOR DUMMY" then punishing them becomes a Rule 1 concern, not a metagame concern.

Things get trickier when you look at stuff that might not be within a sec officer's realm of knowledge. Talismans are one area where it's kinda iffy. On one hand it seems perfectly reasonable to suggest that security officers would be shown information about the Cult of Nar-Sie during training and that information would include their go-to offensive tool for abducting and killing crewmembers... the talisman. If not then NT's training program really needs an overhaul. On the other hand, maybe the scribbles on the paper aren't readily identifiable as cultist language or NT didn't go into specifics about the appearance of talismans. It's a grey area and generally admins aren't wild about allowing security to brig suspicious people early for having weird paper on them, best bet is to wait for Tomes/Runes/Remains/Other Culty Shit before a strange piece of paper would lead you to a CULT conclusion.

NukeOp shuttle is honestly more of a snowflake powergame rule than a hard & fast example of metagaming. Flying straight out to SW shuttle at the first word of nukeops is definitely meta, but common IC sense would tell you that a bunch of non-crew syndicates with jetpacks will also have a ship that brought them here and since we know their goal (GET DAT FUKEN DISK) we should have plenty of IC justification to go shuttle hunt. There's also reasoning that the Nukeops are known by Centcom and their tactics, weaponry, and appearance are very common knowledge... why in the world would their use of a shuttle to board stations somehow be forbidden knowledge. IMO NukeOp shuttle is just a unique rule that prevents crew from fucking over an antag who doesn't have any reasonable counterplay to shuttle fuckery. Jacking the shuttle, walling off the shuttle, looting the shuttle and spacing the nuke, etc. will virtually ensure that the nukeops fail and the only counterplay (posting a guard) is so incredibly shitty and lame that it's better than we just prevent that sort of behavior in the first place. Shuttle Hunting is unacceptable powergaming, not metagaming (aside from the prior example) as many would say.

All the other "meta" accusations are just silly. Implanting someone who just flashed the entire bar, implanting someone who just sprayed non-crayon graffiti all over their department, arresting someone for having "Combat Gloves", etc. may leave a bad taste in your mouth because it removes all the super fun mystery of being selectively retarded until the station is in flames, but it's not metagaming. I often semi-joke that powergamers who do the above kind of behavior aren't shitty powergaming tryhard funkillers, but rather they are the best roleplayers on the station. Anyone who thinks that a massive space corporation with multiple hostile enemies wouldn't deploy a crack team with advanced training on enemy behavior, tactics, tools, weaponry, and other "signs" of suspicious activity are the ones who aren't roleplaying properly.

Every time I walk into a transit hub I get reminded to report unattended bags, when I walk into an airport terminal security often Xrays my shoes, and when I walk through Penn Station every day I pass bomb/drug sniffing dogs. I have yet to see someone flip out in any of these situations and shout "STOP METAGAMING YOU SHITS, LEARN 2 ROLEPLAY, ADMINS BAN HE".

[Malkevin]

Shuttle fuckery is really a coding problem more than anything.

We CAN add point defence turrets that ventilate anyone that doesn't have a syndicate implant.
We CAN add a guard 'dog' that tears the throat out of any non-nuke ops that board the shuttle.

Add those things and anyone that manages to fuck with the shuttle deserves the right to do so.
The only remaining shitterly would be people circling the station at round start to 'accidently' bump into the shuttle - but even then, big fuck off turrets would take care of most of them.