ai upload acces

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:25 pm #123064

so as not to shit up the pet peeves thread how much should the ai protect its upload i myself think it should just plain keep everybody out.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:28 pm #123065

Law 2.

You have zero reason to deny the captain or any head of staff access to your upload unless you've actively heard them say they're going to dehuman someone or otherwise cause harm to a human.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:38 pm #123068

Pretty much what Seag said, don't be a shitter and prevent all possible fun

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:40 pm #123069

Being subverted is part of the fun.

Someone with legit access and no indication of doing harm should be let in.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:51 pm #123071

as a response to what saegimr said. so why do atmos and the armory both places with legitmate non harmfull uses get far more protection i suppose the captain falls under qualified in its use but thats only the cap and the rd.

As a more general statement. Policy as it stands gives the ai ability to deny acces in most cases anyway why not just make it a blanket ai can keep anybody out it will massivly cut down on arguments by captains trying to rules lawyer there way in.

Screemonster · Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:57 pm

tuypo1 wrote:as a response to what saegimr said. so why do atmos and the armory both places with legitmate non harmfull uses get far more protection i suppose the captain falls under qualified in its use but thats only the cap and the rd.

As a more general statement. Policy as it stands gives the ai ability to deny acces in most cases anyway why not just make it a blanket ai can keep anybody out it will massivly cut down on arguments by captains trying to rules lawyer there way in.

Ooooorrrrrr... we can cut down on arguments by AI's not trying to rules lawyer them out.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:02 pm #123074

CPTANT wrote:Being subverted is part of the fun.

Someone with legit access and no indication of doing harm should be let in.

i agree that being subverted is fun but wanting to enter the upload is an indication of doing harm there is no other reason to ever enter.

Im suprised i seem to be alone on this matter i will be interested in seeing dorfisdorfs opinion though we tend to think along the same lines.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:05 pm #123076

tuypo1 wrote:so why do atmos and the armory both places with legitmate non harmfull uses get far more protection

If there is something like a confirmed blob or other central danger to the station where the crew needs to be armed, I hope you aren't also trying to bolt down the armory to stop people from getting guns.
If its not a blob, what do you think the crew is going to do with guns? Shoot nuke ops? Shoot traitors? Pile them up in the chapel and set them on fire while singing?

Atmos is a self sustaining department at this point. Sure there are ways to "improve" the system but that's something you as an AI are capable of. The entire engineering department relies heavily on a single action being taken properly, and then basically never touching it again. There's pretty obviously no legitimate reason for anybody wanting to go play with the station-eating black hole after its set up unless they are already an engineer and already have access to go check up on it.

If you want to try and take that same statement and turn it into "ASIMOV is self sustaining, no reason to change it!" it would only be true if you as the AI have the intention to try and loophole whatever laws get uploaded into murdering everybody. In which case you should immediately suicide as soon as someone grabs an upload board to prevent violating law 1.

tuypo1 wrote:As a more general statement. Policy as it stands gives the ai ability to deny acces in most cases anyway why not just make it a blanket ai can keep anybody out it will massivly cut down on arguments by captains trying to rules lawyer there way in.

Or you could just fucking let them in.
If your laws weren't meant to be changed, there wouldn't be an upload console in the first place.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:12 pm #123078

daily reminder that the only truly asimov compliant law change is the removal of law 2 ;^)

TheNightingale · Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:14 pm

An Asimov AI's thought process:
Is it harmful? If so, stop it.
If not, could it be harmful? If so, evaluate:
Do you have probable cause to believe it'll be harmful? If so, stop it.
If not, let it happen.

A Syndicate operative (covered in blood, next to the dead Captain and HoS, and holding a C20r) orders you to "open your AI Upload so we can subvert you".
Do you do it? No, because

An Assistant hacks into the Upload, but is tased by the turrets. They order you to "s-s-shut them d-d-down and o-o-open the b-b-board s-s-storage!".
Do you do it? No, because though it's not directly harmful, there's a high probability... you get the idea.

The Captain, accompanied by the HoP and RD, orders you to "let us into the upload, we'd like to make Ian a human".
Do you do it? Yes, because it's not harmful, and you don't have probable cause to think it will be, either.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:33 pm #123088

TheNightingale wrote: The Captain, accompanied by the HoP and RD, orders you to "let us into the upload, we'd like to make Ian a human".
Do you do it? Yes, because it's not harmful, and you don't have probable cause to think it will be, either.

ian being human is very harmfull it makes his life as important as the rest of the crew i now have to keep him safe even if it means putting the crew in danger. And if the cap is allowed to make ian human then an assistant has just as much right the ais job is not to uphold acces restrictions.

Its clear im on my own here though i may just have to admit defeat.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:49 pm #123093

tuypo1 wrote:Its clear im on my own here though i may just have to admit defeat.

Welcome to "following the rules".

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:07 pm #123100

i meant Admit Defeat in convincing people a policy change is needed

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:41 pm #123173

Is it kosher to deny access to upload to say the Captain unless they bring another head or a security escort?

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:15 am #123182

Tornadium wrote:Is it kosher to deny access to upload to say the Captain unless they bring another head or a security escort?

Silicon policy answers this question, if I'm not mistaken

Unless you have probable cause of harm or something similar, let the man in

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:39 am #123188

Scones wrote:
Tornadium wrote:Is it kosher to deny access to upload to say the Captain unless they bring another head or a security escort?
Silicon policy answers this question, if I'm not mistaken

Unless you have probable cause of harm or something similar, let the man in

policy as it stands allows you to insist on a trustworthy escort (in my opinion the only trustworty escorts are roboticists and the rd sec is lowest on the trust list to likely to upload robocop)

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:28 am #123198

Scones wrote:
Tornadium wrote:Is it kosher to deny access to upload to say the Captain unless they bring another head or a security escort?
Silicon policy answers this question, if I'm not mistaken

Unless you have probable cause of harm or something similar, let the man in

A single person with access to the AI Core can subvert the AI with no witnesses and no accountability.

The extra person just gives a bit more legitimacy to it.

Hell I could unlock it and stun them if they went for the freeform.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:12 am #123206

Tornadium wrote:
Scones wrote:
Tornadium wrote:Is it kosher to deny access to upload to say the Captain unless they bring another head or a security escort?
Silicon policy answers this question, if I'm not mistaken

Unless you have probable cause of harm or something similar, let the man in
A single person with access to the AI Core can subvert the AI with no witnesses and no accountability.

The extra person just gives a bit more legitimacy to it.

Hell I could unlock it and stun them if they went for the freeform.

problem there is you can change the ais laws between stuns.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:16 am #123228

tuypo1 wrote:
TheNightingale wrote: The Captain, accompanied by the HoP and RD, orders you to "let us into the upload, we'd like to make Ian a human".
Do you do it? Yes, because it's not harmful, and you don't have probable cause to think it will be, either.
ian being human is very harmfull it makes his life as important as the rest of the crew i now have to keep him safe even if it means putting the crew in danger. And if the cap is allowed to make ian human then an assistant has just as much right the ais job is not to uphold acces restrictions.

Its clear im on my own here though i may just have to admit defeat.

Putting the crew at danger to save any human, Ian or not, is a law 1 violation, unless it's immediate harm > potential future harm.

You would only deny entry to let them human ian, is if through some utterly contrived fucking circumstances, you know that this would directly lead to human harm somehow.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:20 am #123241

lumipharon wrote:
tuypo1 wrote:
TheNightingale wrote: The Captain, accompanied by the HoP and RD, orders you to "let us into the upload, we'd like to make Ian a human".
Do you do it? Yes, because it's not harmful, and you don't have probable cause to think it will be, either.
ian being human is very harmfull it makes his life as important as the rest of the crew i now have to keep him safe even if it means putting the crew in danger. And if the cap is allowed to make ian human then an assistant has just as much right the ais job is not to uphold acces restrictions.

Its clear im on my own here though i may just have to admit defeat.
Putting the crew at danger to save any human, Ian or not, is a law 1 violation, unless it's immediate harm > potential future harm.

You would only deny entry to let them human ian, is if through some utterly contrived fucking circumstances, you know that this would directly lead to human harm somehow.

imident harm over future harm is exactly why its so dangerous i have to open an airlock to get ian out of danger even if it means releasing that danger to the rest of the crew.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:25 am #123243

Yes but if you have no reason to believe that such a situation is going to happen, you have to let them in.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:40 am #123249

theres no imident harm to override the future harm every other room in the station has a non harmfull use the upload doesent

rockpecker · Post by **rockpecker** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:16 am #123256

tuypo1 wrote: ian being human is very harmfull it makes his life as important as the rest of the crew i now have to keep him safe even if it means putting the crew in danger.

1. No, because you're not allowed to put the crew in danger, not even to save a human life. You are also not allowed to NOT save a human life. If your laws require two mutually exclusive actions, you are allowed to pick the one you like better. Therefore, the prospect of having Ian defined as human in the future is not a threat to any of the current humans. You just have to tell yourself that, if push comes to shove, you'll save the humans that aren't Ian first.

2. No, because you're not in that situation. Imagining some fanciful scenario where obeying an order would endanger a human doesn't mean you can disobey the order. If you're going to engage in rampant speculation, you could just as well think the captain is lying about which law he intends to upload. AIs that engage in rampant speculation are called "malfunctioning", which is an antag status that has to be assigned to you by the game.

3. This kind of foolishness is exactly why the captain should never say "AI, open the upload so I can enter a law saying X." The correct command is "AI, open the upload."

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:35 am #123263

rockpecker wrote:
tuypo1 wrote: ian being human is very harmfull it makes his life as important as the rest of the crew i now have to keep him safe even if it means putting the crew in danger.
1. No, because you're not allowed to put the crew in danger, not even to save a human life. You are also not allowed to NOT save a human life. If your laws require two mutually exclusive actions, you are allowed to pick the one you like better. Therefore, the prospect of having Ian defined as human in the future is not a threat to any of the current humans. You just have to tell yourself that, if push comes to shove, you'll save the humans that aren't Ian first.

2. No, because you're not in that situation. Imagining some fanciful scenario where obeying an order would endanger a human doesn't mean you can disobey the order. If you're going to engage in rampant speculation, you could just as well think the captain is lying about which law he intends to upload. AIs that engage in rampant speculation are called "malfunctioning", which is an antag status that has to be assigned to you by the game.

3. This kind of foolishness is exactly why the captain should never say "AI, open the upload so I can enter a law saying X." The correct command is "AI, open the upload."

on point 1. that's just plain incorrect silicon policy clearly states that lesser immediate harm takes priority over greater future harm it happens all the time on the rest of your points you might have some valid views I think those views are wrong but there valid but that parts just plain false

point 2 goes directly against what you said in point 1 if somebody is in a plasma filled room and asks me to let them out I have to let them out regardless of how many people that will spread the plasma to.
and really the captain either is lying or is being a condom any possible law you could upload is either to allow harm or be a pain in the arse.

for point 3 we know dam well your going into the upload to upload a law and it matters not what law it is.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:35 am #123268

tuypo1 wrote:
TheNightingale wrote: The Captain, accompanied by the HoP and RD, orders you to "let us into the upload, we'd like to make Ian a human".
Do you do it? Yes, because it's not harmful, and you don't have probable cause to think it will be, either.
ian being human is very harmfull it makes his life as important as the rest of the crew i now have to keep him safe even if it means putting the crew in danger. And if the cap is allowed to make ian human then an assistant has just as much right the ais job is not to uphold acces restrictions.

Its clear im on my own here though i may just have to admit defeat.

It's clear here you should just admit you're retarded. That makes absolutely no sense and I'm pretty sure you're just grasping at any straw you can to keep people out of the upload no matter how dumb they are. There is literally nothing about a law that says "Ian is human" that prioritizes him above other crew members. It just means treating him like the rest of the crew. Shit he'd be even less of a pain the ass than the rest of the crew considering he wouldn't be barking orders at you to open this, bolt that, etc.
Well he might bark but he wouldn't be barking orders unless some admins decided to fuck with him.

I got to admit though, I'm looking forward to seeing you get lynched for being shady and rogue as fuck by refusing to ever let anyone enter your upload, even if it's the captain, the ultimate figure of authority on the station.

Not-Dorsidarf · Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:45 am

A reminder that despite what anyone is saying, server policy is literally that /as soon as any form of human antag is confirmed on station/ you have "probbably cause" to cockblock the captain and his robocop + "The public trust is a synonym for the heads of staff!".

Also captains should upload more fun laws at roundstart, like 4: tabling is harmful to humans.

TheNightingale · Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:47 am

Related - never upload a law saying "Poly is human". OH GOD ITS LOOSE CALL THE SHUTTLE is technically a Law Two order, depending on the AI interpreting it.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:09 am #123280

i never said ian was more important then the rest of the crew i said unnesecary extra humans endanger crew and theres no way to know thats really whats been uploaded. Anzay the ai does not recognise the chain of command. You are unlikely to see me getting lynched though i rarely play ai anymore because arguing with the captain is so tireing.

Its worth noting that i always thank the captain for the better laws if they perseveare in getting laws uploaded

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:20 am #123281

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Also captains should upload more fun laws at roundstart, like 4: tabling is harmful to humans.

i agree that captains should upload more fun laws its being a comdom but in a good way as much as i kick and scream to stop it ic ooc i love fun laws and ic i love robocop and protectstation i just cant allow them. That said tabling is already harmful.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

tuypo1 wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Also captains should upload more fun laws at roundstart, like 4: tabling is harmful to humans.
i agree that captains should upload more fun laws its being a comdom but in a good way as much as i kick and scream to stop it ic ooc i love fun laws and ic i love robocop and protectstation i just cant allow them. That said tabling is already harmful.

Tabling is not harmful(except glasstables).

But with that laws, your borgs get a fun sideproject (stealing all tables ever)

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:17 pm #123304

im inclined to call tabling harmfull due to frustration with people who insist its not assault but even without that i would say its harmful or at least say tablers are harmful people.

It would be more direct to just say that tables are harmful but then your acting like an antag (crew should be willing to forcibly demote the captain if there laws cause problems by making it more of an ic issue you allow players more lieniency)

all that said outside of the upload im a very trusting ai i wouldent destroy the tables i would trust the crew to be responsible with there tables and brig any tablers.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:04 pm #123316

wetting floors without putting up signs on the other hand.....

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:15 pm #123317

tuypo? You mean typo.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:37 pm #123320

yeah funny thing is i never noticed the pun when i first came up with the name.

/tg/Station 13

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