Them Sweet Borg Valids

[Tornadium]

So,

I was just told that if an Antag calls a borg rogue then non-antags can kill it without any issue what so ever because of the current silicon policy.

To give you the case we're dealing with

- Be sec borg
- Hull breach at escape
- People keep trying to either shove others out into space or throw themselves into space.
- Naturally I try to stop people from getting forced into space by people pushing others towards the breach.
- One antag comes along and calls me rogue, get beat to death by a bunch of non-antags.

Apparently this is valid because the traitor "took advantage" of the situation and incited a lynch mob.

Honestly I think this is utterly retarded for so many reasons. Every single person involved saw me yell at people to get away from the breach. I resorted to disabling or stunning people who were shoving others towards the breach or to those who were trying to throw themselves out.

Why on earth would me doing my job as an asimov borg give any credibility to one person calling me rogue, Only a fucking idiot would think that was okay.

Can we just valid borgs now because we try to do our jobs just because one person calls out borgs rogue? Surely the people involved need to make a reasonable fucking judgement call or it falls under totally unreasonable escalation same as if someone murdered another player just because someone claimed they were a cultist.

[Saegrimr]

Prime example of why nonantags who scream BORGS ROGUE fnr get bwoinked. Nobody trusts silicons.

[Tornadium]

Prime example of why nonantags who scream BORGS ROGUE fnr get bwoinked. Nobody trusts silicons.

Even when they're openly trying to stop people dying and getting killed in front of the people who jumped on and killed the borg because one person shouted "borg rogue"

[rockpecker]

Apparently this is valid because the traitor "took advantage" of the situation and incited a lynch mob.

It's "valid", to use your word, because the crowd mistakenly believed you were pushing people out into space, and acted accordingly.

What do you WANT to happen in this case? "Nope, you all should have magically known that the borg wasn't subverted. BANS FOR EVERYONE."

[Shad0vvs]

You should expect to be killed for less to be honest, if you think THAT'S bad enough to make a thread over you'll see worse.

[Tornadium]

Apparently this is valid because the traitor "took advantage" of the situation and incited a lynch mob.

It's "valid", to use your word, because the crowd mistakenly believed you were pushing people out into space, and acted accordingly.

What do you WANT to happen in this case? "Nope, you all should have magically known that the borg wasn't subverted. BANS FOR EVERYONE."

I'm sorry what in this situation would make a single person believe i was trying to push someone into space when i was actively dragging people who got pushed out of space back inside, stunning the fuckers doing the pushing and dragging them back inside too.

Name one action that i undertook that even hinted in the slightest that i was subverted.

I want people punished for killing other players mistakenly for doing absolutely nothing wrong. I was banned for much less by mistakenly killing someone i thought was an antagonist.

[Wyzack]

Dude the 'too much OOC intervention' that you claim to support the removal of cuts both ways

[DemonFiren]

TBH Tornadium this is SS13 at its finest and you should stop whining.

[Screemonster]

Dude the 'too much OOC intervention' that you claim to support the removal of cuts both ways

Pretty much that.

[Tornadium]

Dude the 'too much OOC intervention' that you claim to support the removal of cuts both ways

Hey i think its fucking stupid but if i cop a ban for something less serious than this then the rules should be fairly applied. I support less OOC intervention but the disconnect in who specifically admins take action against is fucking insane.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

While I'd personally say that this isn't worth actioning, it's pretty much a fact that if he'd been a guy in a spacesuit instead of a borg every member of the lynch mob would have been banned, or warned and noted for nonantag murder at the least.

[Cobby]

...
- One antag comes along and calls me rogue, get beat to death by a bunch of non-antags.

Apparently this is valid because the traitor "took advantage" of the situation and incited a lynch mob.

I'm not seeing the issue, It's the exact same as framing someone, except this time it's a machine.

[Cheimon]

You can't stun a cyborg, restrain it, or expect to find anything meaningful in a search (except whether it's emagged, which is far from the only way to be rogue).

With that in mind, it's hardly surprising that cyborgs under suspicion can expect to be treated violently more often. They can still be very dangerous if unfettered, after all.

[Oldman Robustin]

IMO part of the risk of being an unstunnable tanky player with remote access to all electronics and superior tools compared to the average member of the department you're seeking to assist. Especially when you're engaging in a chaotic and confusing conflict.

Admins should still look into these events and evaluate how plausible the justification was for any non-antags who killed the borg, but only the flimsiest raisins should get OOC intervention.

Most of the time this happens a borg/AI had been previously subverted, or engaged in behavior that led the crew to suspect it. Shouting BORGS ROGUE out of the blue will almost never get a borg killing bandwagon on its own.

[Fayrik]

I'm not seeing the issue

I don't think anyone does. I know I sure don't.

I find this situation amusing however, that people are so hell bent on getting a valid, that they'll throw themselves into space, chasing after a borg.
Personally I'd say spacing yourself over a sec borg really isn't worth it, but hey, what do I know about dem valids.

[Tornadium]

...
- One antag comes along and calls me rogue, get beat to death by a bunch of non-antags.

Apparently this is valid because the traitor "took advantage" of the situation and incited a lynch mob.

I'm not seeing the issue, It's the exact same as framing someone, except this time it's a machine.

Because I could literally fucking meta comm with someone I know is a traitor, have them call out borg rogue, flash it and get my valids on without any fucking justification what so ever.

Surely you should have to use your own fucking initiative and common sense and reasoning before jumping immediately to "MUH VALIDS". Especially when every single person involved saw me try to constantly save people from getting killed, and ask people to stop.

Like are we seriously just advocating valids against borgs because one person calls out DAT BORG IS ROGUE? Like seriously?

[Tornadium]

IMO part of the risk of being an unstunnable tanky player with remote access to all electronics and superior tools compared to the average member of the department you're seeking to assist. Especially when you're engaging in a chaotic and confusing conflict.

Admins should still look into these events and evaluate how plausible the justification was for any non-antags who killed the borg, but only the flimsiest raisins should get OOC intervention.

Most of the time this happens a borg/AI had been previously subverted, or engaged in behavior that led the crew to suspect it. Shouting BORGS ROGUE out of the blue will almost never get a borg killing bandwagon on its own.

I only got converted to a borg late in the round, the AI had been actively calling out cultist positions and we'd been working with security.

Not a single justification for consideration of the AI being rogue.

[Saegrimr]

Because I could literally fucking meta comm with someone I know is a traitor, have them call out borg rogue, flash it and get my valids on without any fucking justification what so ever.

This is an entirely new set of permaban just waiting to happen.

[rockpecker]

Surely you should have to use your own fucking initiative and common sense and reasoning before jumping immediately to "MUH VALIDS". Especially when every single person involved saw me try to constantly save people from getting killed, and ask people to stop.

They used their initiative and common sense and reasoning and decided that borg needed to die. Evidently enough of them agreed to successfully kill you. You're asking the admins to second-guess all of them, with the benefit of knowing that you're really for real not subverted.

Autism is for forts, not for admin complaints.

[Tornadium]

Surely you should have to use your own fucking initiative and common sense and reasoning before jumping immediately to "MUH VALIDS". Especially when every single person involved saw me try to constantly save people from getting killed, and ask people to stop.

They used their initiative and common sense and reasoning and decided that borg needed to die. Evidently enough of them agreed to successfully kill you. You're asking the admins to second-guess all of them, with the benefit of knowing that you're really for real not subverted.

Autism is for forts, not for admin complaints.

The three people who jumped on me were the three people consistently trying to push people towards the breach.

Just saying.

[oranges]

>letting carbons flash you

you're not worthy to be a silicon player

I would've flash danced those silly carbons until their weak human muscles gave out and they collapsed to the ground.

[Sweaterkittens]

I think the people saying that they don't see the problem here are looking at the wrong issue. The issue is not that someone screamed "Borgs rogue!!!", as that happens almost once a shift, especially as a Secborg. You arrest an antag, don't release a violent prisoner because of law 1, stun sec or heads committing harm, you're gonna hear someone screaming that the borgs are rogue. This is not about the traitor "taking advantage of the situation" or the situation being okay because he's a traitor. This is about a greytide being shit and killing someone because one person claimed they were valid with zero evidence to back it up.

Examine a similar situation with me, if you will. There is a mob of people at escape, and as usual, there's people being dicks and hitting and pushing each other, but it's clear who is starting fights. A medic is running around trying to heal everyone and do his job, and Urist McAntag shouts, "Mehdbai Studrhore is a ling!!!!". The greytide turns and kills the medic, believing that he is valid without seeing anything to justify or confirm aside from a single person shouting that they're a ling, and without any further explanation. Taking the valid point that Cheimon brought up, "You can't stun, cuff, or search a cyborg and expect to find anything meaningful in a search." Much in the same way, you're not going to find anything incriminating on a ling, and they're equally if not MORE dangerous to go up against, meaning that mobbing one is generally more appropriate. That being said, is anyone in disagreement that those greytiders would be in the wrong in that situation? A single person with no authority calling them a ling (and without elaborating via "he had an armblade/attacked me/transformed/stung me") should not immediately make them valid, especially with zero extenuating circumstances or reason to believe them.

While silicons are generally given less consideration than humans, I believe the comparison is fair in this instance. If there was literally ANY other reason to believe this person saying the borg was rogue, I could see it - but when it's literally just someone saying "borg rogue!" and that makes it okay to immediately jump on and kill them without anything else occurring, that's absolute crap. We can argue back and forth about whether or not we should have more or less OOC intervention, but if you can cop a ban for mistakenly killing non-antags with no evidence, it should be consistent, silicon or no.

[CPTANT]

But people get falsely accused of being lings/traitors all the time and get lynched. Its just part of the game.

Just accept that you can't control everything and learn how to act in such situations the best you can.

[Sweaterkittens]

CPTANT, there are certainly times when people get lynched mistakenly, and it is part of the game, but I think you're overgeneralizing. Someone getting lynched because a ling false-armbladed them while they were in a fist fight with someone else, which led to them getting robusted and incinerated while all signs point to them being a changeling is one thing. Someone getting lynched while having a quiet drink in the bar simply because someone randomly yelled, "Urist is a ling!!!", with no "evidence" aside from that, is bullshit. The implications of it being okay to valid someone simply because someone else says they're valid with no other evidence is frightening.

There is absolutely a grey area, I'm merely using two extremes (one of which Tornadium was the subject of) to illustrate that a blanket "if someone says they're valid then they're valid" policy is silly. A little common sense would lead any sane crewmember to question the validity of the statement calling the cyborg rogue in a situation where there is no cause or evidence to believe it is, which leads me to believe that the greyshirts who attacked the cyborg out of nowhere are at fault here.

[Tornadium]

But people get falsely accused of being lings/traitors all the time and get lynched. Its just part of the game.

Just accept that you can't control everything and learn how to act in such situations the best you can.

Yeah but in those cases where people get lynched usually they have planted gear on them, or they pick up traitor gear, or they get arm blade stung or some event happens which makes people think they are guilty.

In this circumstance as was well put by Sweaterkittens, I was actively attempting to stop people from dying. People did not like that I was trying to stop people from dying, One person who was not involved walks up and shouts that i'm rogue and suddenly I get mobbed and killed.

I don't think that's kosher at all.

[Scott]

So,

I was just told that if an Antag calls a borg rogue then non-antags can kill it without any issue what so ever because of the current silicon policy.

To give you the case we're dealing with

- Be sec borg
- Hull breach at escape
- People keep trying to either shove others out into space or throw themselves into space.
- Naturally I try to stop people from getting forced into space by people pushing others towards the breach.
- One antag comes along and calls me rogue, get beat to death by a bunch of non-antags.

Apparently this is valid because the traitor "took advantage" of the situation and incited a lynch mob.

Honestly I think this is utterly retarded for so many reasons. Every single person involved saw me yell at people to get away from the breach. I resorted to disabling or stunning people who were shoving others towards the breach or to those who were trying to throw themselves out.

Why on earth would me doing my job as an asimov borg give any credibility to one person calling me rogue, Only a fucking idiot would think that was okay.

Can we just valid borgs now because we try to do our jobs just because one person calls out borgs rogue? Surely the people involved need to make a reasonable fucking judgement call or it falls under totally unreasonable escalation same as if someone murdered another player just because someone claimed they were a cultist.

Admins hate silicons, breh.

To me it got to the point that playing cyborg was only enjoyable if I avoided all non silicon players. Any interaction with them these days is grounds for getting yourself locked and detonated, and all of it is valid in the administration's eyes.

[Jacough]

Prime example of why nonantags who scream BORGS ROGUE fnr get bwoinked. Nobody trusts silicons.

To be honest this kind of brings up a question of when it's alright to actually act on people screaming about borgs being rogue. Just because someone's screaming the borgs or AI are rogue I imagine it should warrant a ban to lynch them if they're not showing any signs of being rogue.

[Shad0vvs]

Prime example of why nonantags who scream BORGS ROGUE fnr get bwoinked. Nobody trusts silicons.

To be honest this kind of brings up a question of when it's alright to actually act on people screaming about borgs being rogue. Just because someone's screaming the borgs or AI are rogue I imagine it should warrant a ban to lynch them if they're not showing any signs of being rogue.

This is the current policy as I understand it, but antags can lie and griff like this.

And if you guys haven't made a lynch mob as an antag or cause a riot you're missing out.

I've been killed by someone ioning a door, then a different person getting shocked by it and killing me. The admin said it was cool. So basically expect to get shafted a lot.

[Tornadium]

Prime example of why nonantags who scream BORGS ROGUE fnr get bwoinked. Nobody trusts silicons.

To be honest this kind of brings up a question of when it's alright to actually act on people screaming about borgs being rogue. Just because someone's screaming the borgs or AI are rogue I imagine it should warrant a ban to lynch them if they're not showing any signs of being rogue.

This is the current policy as I understand it, but antags can lie and griff like this.

And if you guys haven't made a lynch mob as an antag or cause a riot you're missing out.

I've been killed by someone ioning a door, then a different person getting shocked by it and killing me. The admin said it was cool. So basically expect to get shafted a lot.

Circumstances like that should be valid and they are cool when it works.

The situation I mentioned, fuck no its not.