Amendment to Rule 3

[QuartzCrystal]

It should also be against the rules to fake IC in OOC as a means of being a dick or just trolling. Especially if one is a ghost or observing.

[bandit]

It isn't already?

[Jordie0608]

Yes

[Shaps-cloud]

Yeah pretty sure that still gets you yelled at

[LiamLime]

Isn'r IC in OOC an absolute, no excuses rule, which results in a ban in all cases, including legitimate accidents and cases when only irrelevant or inconsequential information is shared?

I don't think this case needs to be specified, it's the rule that needs to be enforced properly.

[Saegrimr]

If its indistinguishable from actual round related information, its basically the same thing as far as players are concerned.

[QuartzCrystal]

All I'm saying is, this amendment should be added to the rule page.

[John_Oxford]

I mean, theres three types of IC in OCC
Deliberate shitlery, IE: "its double agent, marcus fields is a double agent, my name is john connor, my pda code is 593 alpha, fuck your rules"
An actual accident IE: "say CMO what the fuck are you making chloral for?"
Memes ":g absorbing the ai"

Deliberate shitlery is generally followed up by that person logging off, and then getting banned, that's how its always been
Accidents are generally followed by "FUCK SHIT FUCK WHY" and "ban he naow" and OOC getting muted
Memes are followed by more memes, or by people going "muh emulsions"

The only thing you should ban for is direct IC in OOC with direct intent to give out information, not accidents, as they happen and banning someone for it is shitty.

[TechnoAlchemist]

Intentional IC and OOC should be more than a 15 minute ban TBH.

[ShadowDimentio]

Admins are already shitheads about IC OOC, don't give them more of a reason to be shitheads.

Example: I was xenobiologist after the recent addition of consoles. It's about one minute till shuttle docks, I'm bored, and OOC something like "So xenobio consoles are pretty cool."

Then I got a 15 minute ban because REEEEEEEEEEEEE IC OOC by one of our wonderful admins.

Did I ruin the round? No. Did anything change as a result of me posting in OOC? Not really. But M-MUH HARD LINE RULES, M-MUH ENFORCEMENT

[Saegrimr]

Its probably the easiest rule to follow. All you have to do is nothing and people still find a way to cock that up.

[ShadowDimentio]

But what if I'm terribly bored and want to talk about game mechanics because I'm terribly bored and others probably are as well

[Ahammer18]

How hard is it to not talk about the game? You could have talked about any other topic on your mind.

[LiamLime]

If you want to talk about the game, do so while you're dead, with other dead people.

The only thing you should ban for is direct IC in OOC with direct intent to give out information, not accidents, as they happen and banning someone for it is shitty.

People have faked accidents in the past, unfortunately.

All I'm saying is, this amendment should be added to the rule page.

The rules page is 27k characters long. No, it should definitely not be added to the complete and utter garbage that is the rules page. I'm confident that the old detailed forum post of rule amendments that Dezzmont or XSI or someone wrote back in 2011, was shorter than the vomit that is the current rules page.

[Cheimon]

Who the fuck counts a body of text in characters? The main rules are about 600 words, the entire page is about 4500 because it's got a list of precedents (1200), a list of security-specific policies (340), and a list of silicon-specific policies (1900). Word counts given approximately, rounding down to the nearest 100 words. If you're worried about the rules being too long and complicated, don't feel like you have to bother with anything but the first two parts.

[Saegrimr]

Liam is one of those that thinks we only need "DONT BE A DICK" in big bold letters and nothing else on the page.

I'd be all for that too if I didn't have to listen to whiney faggots point and screech about how they didn't know and couldn't know because there's no rule against kidnapping and stripping the HOS down and pinching his nipples with a wirecutter in maint until he dies from blood loss.

[LiamLime]

I'm in no way concerned about myself or anyone here in regards to the rules. We've all dealt with their awfulness and survived. However, They are, by my observation, extremely off-putting to new players. I've had several people now look into TGS when I mention it in conversation, get to the rules, and stop right there, only to complain to me later about how overwhelmingly long they are. No, I can't show you a graph of empirical data on this subject, but anyone who expects a new player to wade through 27k characters just to get an understanding of the rules, is crazy - empirical data or no empirical data.

As to where I got the 27 charactersk number:

Liam is one of those that thinks we only need "DONT BE A DICK" in big bold letters and nothing else on the page.

I'd be all for that too if I didn't have to listen to whiney faggots point and screech about how they didn't know and couldn't know because there's no rule against kidnapping and stripping the HOS down and pinching his nipples with a wirecutter in maint until he dies from blood loss.

Way to assume things about me. I am definitely not that. There is obviously a need for clarifications beyond "Don't be a dick", but what we have right now is an obvious problem. The overwhelming amount of rules is just that - overwhelming. The rules don't need to be written as law, taking into consideration every possible scenario - hell, the "don't toe the line" rule covers all of that in 4 words. There can also be tiered rules, clarifying each of the rules. What I'm saying is that the 10 rules section, should not be the first thing a new player sees.

Here's where I'd start:

Rules page: First section: The 10 rules with JUST the bold text. Second section: The current, full 10 rules. That is it, that is everything on this page. The rest of the current rules page is on separate pages, each linked to from the corresponding rule in the second section of the rules page.

Obviously this would need some adjustments, but it would at least be a starting point to work off of.

[ShadowDimentio]

I agree with Liam "I unironically post graphs to prove my point" Lime. We're a fucking 2d spaceman server. We don't need an airtight rules page that outlines every nuance of forbidden shittiness. We just need a few good, clear rules and admins that won't be shitheads about enforcing the letters instead of the spirit, like they do with IC OOC.

[newfren]

we also need a playerbase that doesn't toe the line on absolutely every rule as hard as they can then post novels in FNR when they get banned for it

we do not have that playerbase

[LiamLime]

Why not? Those novels are half the fun of TGS.

[John_Oxford]

sigh


If you have it where admins determine if you fucked up or not regardless of the rules on a case by case basis, we now have a shitty admin-run server, where admins can do whatever the fuck they want with no downside.

But we won't have whinny FNR novel posters.

If we have it where literally every rule ever in the history of every scenario is listed, we now have a server that is completely unplayable, because simply punching someone would result in automatic 3 minute ban if you were not a antagonist.

Then we would have whinny FNR novel posters


Now heres the funny part, if we have equal ammounts of both, you might think neither side would complain...

thats like saying a group of extremely autistic neckbeards playing a 2d spacemen simulator won't take every oppourtunity to whine their asses off for all of eternity.


You are fucked either way, it's easier to just get fucked simplistically, rather than having to get fucked behind a 100000 page rule book.

[iamgoofball]

"I unironically post graphs to prove my point"

did you just diss using graphs(which show data and are designed to help present data and prove findings) for proving points/findings?

[Malkevin]

Liam is one of those that thinks we only need "DONT BE A DICK" in big bold letters and nothing else on the page.

I'd be all for that too if I didn't have to listen to whiney faggots point and screech about how they didn't know and couldn't know because there's no rule against kidnapping and stripping the HOS down and pinching his nipples with a wirecutter in maint until he dies from blood loss.

Problem is if the rule's page is too long then nobody bothers reading it

Or people skim the rules then go "oh, must have missed that"

Or you have overly specific rules that got shoe horned in by some goits who are no longer about but the rule still remains because everyone's too lazy to jump through the hoops needed to get the rule removed/changed (see HoS executions) and no one gives a shit about that dumb rule because no one upholds that rule until some autistmin comes about and goes "but its in the rules!!!" no matter how much people cry the rule is dumb and never enforced.

[LiamLime]

That is why my immediate reaction to suggestions of new rules is always "NO!". Once they are added, they are completely impossible to remove.

Every suggested rule makes sense when examined independently - of course it does. But if you don't weed out the obvious rules, the needless rules and the rules which are only a problem in theory, but never (or only rarely) actually happen - then you end up with... well this.

There was a rule proposed a while ago - one of those knee jerk rules - about admins not being allowed to lock complaint threads about themselves. Yes, this makes perfect sense when examined on its own. But then you look at how many problems this would have solved... One. Out of 131 or more (some threads were probably deleted). And it would add needless bureaucracy to every single case - even the other 130 cases where this was not a problem. Yes, the rule makes perfectly logical sense... but then again so do 1000 other rules which solve theoretical problems.

Fact is, most uncommon problems can be solved on a case by case basis. Only the common ones should actually make it into the rules.

[Cheimon]

I suppose splitting the rules page into a 'rules' page and then two separate 'policy' pages might make sense. Especially since some of the policy stuff is just restating the rules, like the security one that says "security can do what they want to antags, like everybody else".

The problem with not having these policy pages is that the policies will still exist. It just becomes something you have to learn over toeing the line, instead of just having it spelled out.

Is it really that hard to figure out that all you really need to read are the main 10 rules?

[Malkevin]

The admin's can't lock their own threads shouldn't have needed to be discussed anyway, it falls well within the long standing policy that admins can't deal with their own shit - admins have been deadminned for handling adminhelps about themselves.