Community Votes/ Community Guidelines

[starmute]

Right now we've gone total reversal of this, people are putting long ass brig timers and making up shit, because basically security is totalitarian, they make up what they want and its law until it moves into the realms of "being a dick" which WILDLY varies between what admin is on and their stance of how the server should be run.

And I think I could be forgiven in thinking that it was a purely HG thing when the ONLY source of information I was going on was the change logs of the wiki. Given that there was NO ANNOUNCEMENT, NO POLLS, NO DISCUSSION AT ALL, before it was put into effect. This is OUR community, not any one group of peoples.

Currently our system is run in a situation where 3 people have total and absolute (correct me if I'm wrong) power over the wiki, server policy, and issues regarding tgstation in general.

I propose that the community (members of the forum) can vote to change things on the wiki, server policy and tgstation in general.

The vote would have to reach 30+ (or some other number if you wish) members to come to a vote..

The voting would last one month and would be posted as a sticky.

If it is voted on then it needs to be a majority vote by more than 5 votes, and cannot be revoked without another vote.


This gives some power to the players of this game and gives some oversight to our overbearing glorious overlords.


Thank you for reading this. Thank you for your time and consideration

[Wyzack]

Most players do not use the forums

[peoplearestrange]

A large pentenctage of regular players use the forums, a vote on the forum isn't invalid, its just not visible to ALL who play on the server.
We can still do server votes for anything that wildly effects the gameplay/server rules honestly.

Also from my experince in the past, major changes are never normally agreed on by all three but instead pushed by one person, who then another headmins agrees with a "sure whatever" and it goes through.
Mostly this is done privately with 0 transparency at all. Or, as I have said already of late, 0 communication to anyone, even the admins.

[starmute]

Most players do not use the forums

There would be a mandatory minimum of votes connected with a byond account to get a vote rolling (I said 30).

There also would be a mandatory grace period (a month) for people to vote on the proposed rule

There would be a mandatory amount the vote has to succeed by (5 votes over half)



If "Most players do not use the forums" then what is the point of headmin elections?


I'm simply stating that if enough support for a vote or a project is there then there should be a way for the community to implement it.

[Shaps-cloud]

I think the headmin system can work fine if we have multiple active headmins who are speaking to the community about their decisions at any given time, rather than one headmin handling all the publicity and consultation with the community. I'm not sure how viable this really is past the first few months after an election when headmins seem to start burning out, but hopefully the 4 month terms instead of 6 month terms will ensure a fresh supply of active blood for the machine. Community votes definitely still have a place in the system for gauging player interest/reactions to proposals, but in the end it's still up to the headmins to actually enact and enforce those policies, and also to make sure they're coherent and fit in with the other policies that are already enacted. Votes alone shouldn't be able to decide policy, since they're slow and have a tendency to be based more off idealism than what's realistic

[Wyzack]

That seems like way too much beurocracy for a game. This is a game, remember?

[starmute]

I think the headmin system can work fine if we have multiple active headmins who are speaking to the community about their decisions at any given time, rather than one headmin handling all the publicity and consultation with the community. I'm not sure how viable this really is past the first few months after an election when headmins seem to start burning out, but hopefully the 4 month terms instead of 6 month terms will ensure a fresh supply of active blood for the machine. Community votes definitely still have a place in the system for gauging player interest/reactions to proposals, but in the end it's still up to the headmins to actually enact and enforce those policies, and also to make sure they're coherent and fit in with the other policies that are already enacted. Votes alone shouldn't be able to decide policy, since they're slow and have a tendency to be based more off idealism than what's realistic

The headmin system can work fine. I'm not saying replace it. Just supplement it.

Votes should be able to supliment or change policy if they get enough support. Currently I honestly doubt that headmins consider every proposal that players have or look over them seriously.

That seems like way too much beurocracy for a game. This is a game, remember?

I'm literally talking about giving something that is optional to the players. You pass enough votes and it gets things done.

Let me give you a example involving grade school

Spoiler:

For example when you were in grade school and they put dried mash potatoes on the menu and you wanted them off so you made a petition. It would be like that. Even though some kids really like their dried mash potatoes the majority of people wouldn't touch them. Or maybe the principal really likes his mash potatoes. It doesn't matter because the majority of people would like something else on the menu.

Currently our process is "Vote for some people and hope they aren't shit". This did not work well in the era of Intigracy vs HBL. It doesn't always work well now.

Currently there is A LOT of bureaucracy especially behind the scenes.

A quick example is : See whats going on about space law wiki page right now. A headmin is pulling rank despite overwhelming public perception that he is wrong about the situation, and was extremely hasty to implement his solution.

There is no way for the community to currently redress a issue that they feel needs to be addressed. If a headmin is making bad decisions, its tough cookies unless MSO decides otherwise. You can post on the forums but a admin rarely given grief unless they actually play the game and mess up or are inactive for a long period of time.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Why do you type in giant font?

[MrStonedOne]

Why do you type in giant font?

[NikNakFlak]

Why do you type in giant font?

[ThanatosRa]

Why do you type in giant font?

[Hornygranny]

Why do you type in giant font?

[oranges]

Currently our system is run in a situation where 3 people have total and absolute (correct me if I'm wrong) power over the wiki, server policy, and issues regarding tgstation in general.

I propose that the community (members of the forum) can vote to change things on the wiki, server policy and tgstation in general.

The three people are elected, one by the admins, one by the players and one by the host. In theory this ensures that each part of the tg community has input on the direction of the station. Plus headmins should be paying attention to votes and policy threads.

For the example you mentioned, when the remaining two headmins are picked you can ask them to repeal hg's/loller's decision (in fact you can still message loller and jordie to ask them to reverse or change their decisions to go against hg's)

[starmute]

Why do you type in giant font?

Is it wrong? Is there rules against writing in 120? If I'm breaking any rules I will stop. Personally I don't like the smaller size of the 100 size font on bbl. I considered being snarky about it but this has nothing to do with the current issue and is a waste of time.

Currently our system is run in a situation where 3 people have total and absolute (correct me if I'm wrong) power over the wiki, server policy, and issues regarding tgstation in general.

I propose that the community (members of the forum) can vote to change things on the wiki, server policy and tgstation in general.

The three people are elected, one by the admins, one by the players and one by the host. In theory this ensures that each part of the tg community has input on the direction of the station. Plus headmins should be paying attention to votes and policy threads.

For the example you mentioned, when the remaining two headmins are picked you can ask them to repeal hg's/loller's decision (in fact you can still message loller and jordie to ask them to reverse or change their decisions to go against hg's)

First
Why would a admin go against another admins decision? It causes lots of drama. Look at the Intigracy vs HBL days. When HBL and Intigracy started arguing it almost brought down the whole server. I mean Intigracy wrote a 5 page long article on how HBL was cancer. Its much easier to keep your head down and do nothing.

Second what is the argument against having a vote on something that lots of forum members care about? I'm not saying "Down with the system" I'm saying lets add a vote to the system.

[TheNightingale]

Is it wrong? Is there rules against writing in 120? If I'm breaking any rules I will stop. Personally I don't like the smaller size of the 100 size font on bbl. I considered being snarky about it but this has nothing to do with the current issue and is a waste of time.

If you use Ctrl and +/-, you can zoom in and out on your browser, which changes the size of the text (and the rest of the page) just for you. That might make it easier to read everyone else's posts.

[Ikarrus]

It appears obnoxious to a lot of people, myself included. While it's technically not against the rules, it's very distracting and you will catch no end of flak about it, much like if you were always posting in allcaps.

It's an etiquette thing I suppose.

[Zilenan91]

Didn't John Oxford put stuff in weird fonts a lot? I miss John Oxford. This forum needs an active shitposter like him.

[starmute]

Is it wrong? Is there rules against writing in 120? If I'm breaking any rules I will stop. Personally I don't like the smaller size of the 100 size font on bbl. I considered being snarky about it but this has nothing to do with the current issue and is a waste of time.

If you use Ctrl and +/-, you can zoom in and out on your browser, which changes the size of the text (and the rest of the page) just for you. That might make it easier to read everyone else's posts.

Much better. Thank you.

It appears obnoxious to a lot of people, myself included. While it's technically not against the rules, it's very distracting and you will catch no end of flak about it, much like if you were always posting in allcaps.

It's an etiquette thing I suppose.

Done I bowed to peer pressure, lets talk about the issues.

[J_Madison]

The issue here is you're afraid groups will deprive us of information by unwrite ungood writespeak like there is a Big brother whom censors and bans information or writes it in a way that is doubleplusgood for them.

Tgstation isn't a democracy. At any moment one admin or another can flip and take action with the host being unable to do anything without compromising his positions.

There is a severe lack in the rights of players and the proles, given that.

Your best bet is not to focus on others but to archive and keep the information yourself if you feel you're being deprived as you'll find little justice or change currently.


And regarding giving power to the proles of the food chain, I'd rather that not be the case given that the masses don't know what they like.

[Zilenan91]

/tg/station isn't an orwellian government.

[starmute]

The issue here is you're afraid groups will deprive us of information by unwrite ungood writespeak like there is a Big brother whom censors and bans information or writes it in a way that is doubleplusgood for them.

Tgstation isn't a democracy. At any moment one admin or another can flip and take action with the host being unable to do anything without compromising his positions.

There is a severe lack in the rights of players and the proles, given that.

Your best bet is not to focus on others but to archive and keep the information yourself if you feel you're being deprived as you'll find little justice or change currently.


And regarding giving power to the proles of the food chain, I'd rather that not be the case given that the masses don't know what they like.

So your thoughts are "our system sucks but don't do anything because the player base is stupid as fuck"?

The problem I have with that is that we as a community elect these upstanding citizens. If we're going to act like our community votes in elections mater then we should act like community votes matter in other affairs as well.

If things are as bad as some people make them out to be we could just throw the whole system out. I mean if one person is determining everything then lets stop pretending that the community matters.

I mean honestly either the community matters or it doesn't. If it does matter there should be a way to vote outside of begging a headmin to please see your way.

[J_Madison]

Yeah essentially. Coming from a POV of a downstream server owner, the players are quite literally powerless and too dumb to do anything. There is no constitution or any written guideline for the rights a player.

The you'll unlikely see an admin be elected that has a less than 0.8 Pearson coefficient of the other admins. Simply put there is no black and white, only grey and greyer.

There is no throwing the system out on tg. Maybe elsewhere but not here, yet.

Get connected or be in a position of power.


If you're looking to fight the power and make the system more fair, you're heading down a dead end. There's been players that've tried to do this, and their ban appeals and attempts to contact the he admins are purposely ignored.

[starmute]

If you're looking to fight the power and make the system more fair, you're heading down a dead end. There's been players that've tried to do this, and their ban appeals and attempts to contact the he admins are purposely ignored.

I'm not trying to fight the power. However I understand that it does ruffle some feathers that I think that perhaps our current way of doing things isn't the best. I really don't care about the consequences of trying however. Its okay. I'm just trying to make the server better and I'm okay with whatever comes with it.

Get connected or be in a position of power.

No thanks. I don't want any decisions to be made on basis of personal power or favors owed.

[oranges]

If you're looking to fight the power and make the system more fair, you're heading down a dead end. There's been players that've tried to do this, and their ban appeals and attempts to contact the he admins are purposely ignored.

Could you provide evidence of this because it sounds like absolute bullshit

[J_Madison]

If you're looking to fight the power and make the system more fair, you're heading down a dead end. There's been players that've tried to do this, and their ban appeals and attempts to contact the he admins are purposely ignored.

Could you provide evidence of this because it sounds like absolute bullshit

We could start off with Tornadium who challenged the admins, was a shitter, has had his ban appeals denied, and did what he was instructed to appeal the ban, but currently sits in supportbus waiting for a headmin to answer his appeals.

Whilst he didn't fight to make things fairer in general, he did fight to make rules more lax and constantly rule lawyered everything.

The headmin without questionable doubt knows he was in supportbus and purposely ignored him.

Put me in the firing line too. I tried to make a game more fair, I fought to clarify rules, and stood by strong principles when I felt I was wronged.

I was tried with a permanent ban for the reason of toxic for opening admin complaints, submitting admin feedback and promoting fair gameplay on SS13.

If it wasn't for the fact I'm not a shitter in general and I'm not the person to lawyer rules, push boundaries and look for trouble, I'd have kept that ban. Simply for having a backbone.

Theres likely other names and other people who're on the firing line or generally looked down upon by admins.

[Shaps-cloud]

Tornadium was already told to go away, and his inability to take the hint that he's not wanted here doesn't mean he deserved another chance. As for your ban, it was a bad one that got overturned anyway, so what's the issue?

[starmute]

Tornadium was already told to go away, and his inability to take the hint that he's not wanted here doesn't mean he deserved another chance. As for your ban, it was a bad one that got overturned anyway, so what's the issue?

While the history lesson is all well and good (There are plenty of stories to be told to be honest, some good some bad and some indifferent) its driving the topic off the rails just as much as the font issue was for some people.

People shouldn't have to suck up to the headmins to get policy decided. To be honest... what is the point of this board if everything is decided by one or two people.

[Malkevin]

Most players do not use the forums

They should though.

One of the reasons I selected this server instead of the others is because it had a community surrounding it.


Why I stay is probably some sort of macabre masochistic tendency.

[iamgoofball]

never forget NT's death

plus this thread is gonna be obsolete when goofsec is done so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[starmute]

never forget NT's deathplus this thread is gonna be obsolete when goofsec is done so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

How does a in game space law make the basic idea that we need to allow the players to respond to players need for the reasonable ability to vote on basic policies?

When a admin misuses their power it shows flaws in our current system. When something is broken you fix it. You don't ignore the problem, that doesn't cause the problem to magically go away. Any headmin can currently abuse the lack of oversight and unfortunately it will happen again.

That being said there are good things in our current system, we just need to add to them.

[Tornadium]

Tornadium was already told to go away, and his inability to take the hint that he's not wanted here doesn't mean he deserved another chance. As for your ban, it was a bad one that got overturned anyway, so what's the issue?

Actually I wasn't.

I was told by a headmin to go to other servers and get admin vouches and that would be enough for a probation. I did so and made an appeal thread while waiting in IRC to speak to someone and the appeal was locked and I was basically told to fuck off by a few admins.

HG wasn't involved in that, he actually lifted whatever weird forum ban you placed on me after I made the appeal so I could post again.

Though after reading your post to be honest, I'm probably not going to even bother appealing now. Seems like a waste after going to 5 different servers, playing and not having a single issue and asking admins and moderators to vouch for me. However I feel like if I appeal now all it does it grant legitimacy to whatever personal issue you seem to have. Lets be straight about that, your issue with me is personal rather than based on anything I actually ever did on this server. I played on here for what 4 years without issue? I still don't know what your problem is, maybe I pissed you off in some other game and apparently that is enough to stoke the fire of this eternal rage that I seem to be generating from you and ausops right now. I don't really know the reason behind it as when I've spoken to you in IRC I've been nothing but polite and to be quite honest I don't think I've ever seen this level of anger from anyone ever before. It's not like even minor rage it's legitimate hate and venon. I've yet to find out why you feel this way.

Just to make it clear, HG was just really busy. He didn't ignore me and he was pretty helpful and removed the weird posting group I was in so I could actually appeal properly. Yes the hidden posting group that contains me, 2beard and some dude who consistently tried to crash the server. I wouldn't really consider myself quite on their level but hey. That said, if I do bother appealing my ban it just appears to give legitimacy to the notion that everything is fine in the world of TG. The sad truth is that the admin team has been slipping towards and basically is at this point an old boys club a clique that you have to get on board with or move the fuck along. I don't really recall it ever being this bad before, Just reading most of the replies now kinda makes me really worried about the health of the community here going forward, There are some genuinely good people on the staff here which try to help and make things better but after speaking to a lot of people in IRC (admins included) and reading some of the shit on the forums since I got banned I can't really say I have much hope for any recovery any time soon.

I wouldn't really consider myself a shitter J_Mad. As I said, I was here for 4 years without incident really. I haven't had any issues on other servers either, like ever and I've played with a bunch of people from this community on Bay, CM and Goon. There are community members who have done significantly worse than I have, repeatedly with worse attitudes than I do and are still playing here. I don't really have any illusions at this point, I pissed off and challenged the system and I lost and I have to deal with the consequences of not being able to play on the server because I didn't swallow the pill and smile. There isn't really any other way to summarize my situation at the moment, the rage that I receive by just being around is far beyond anything I've witnessed any other member of this community receive and I'm sure you can attest to that yourself having seen some of the IRC chat.

I probably put myself on the perma do not unban list after making a post like this but I have to say I'm okay with not playing here if making a criticism about the way things are handled results in an outright blanket ban. Sorry HG if thats how it has to be after I bugged you so much to get a reply, I kind of feel like a dick doing this now but when Shaps can't manage to restrain his venom to tell the truth about something I feel like I kinda have to set the record straight here.

Edit : Poor Grammar.

[TechnoAlchemist]

I'd say that you're a pretty annoying guy to deal with from an administrators perspective tornado man but I doubt you're a bad person. I think you're a victim of a snowball effect of managing to tick off people which eventually ended up as a permaban.

Personally, if you do get unbanned, I would highly suggest changing your ckey.

[Tornadium]

I'd say that you're a pretty annoying guy to deal with from an administrators perspective tornado man but I doubt you're a bad person. I think you're a victim of a snowball effect of managing to tick off people which eventually ended up as a permaban.

Personally, if you do get unbanned, I would highly suggest changing your ckey.

I appreciate that TA, I can be extremely annoying to deal with because I tend to aggressively argue my perspective and not let up.

I did briefly consider making a new CKEY in the event of ever getting unbanned but I have concerns about creating extra ammunition to be thrown back at me by doing so.

[TechnoAlchemist]

Paprika did it so can you, just let administration know etc etc

[Stickymayhem]

What is this thread even

[Tornadium]

What is this thread even

I thought it was a thread voicing a concern about the perceived lack of community voice.

I could be entirely wrong though.

[starmute]

What is this thread even

Its about community guidelines and asking for a community vote. It keeps going off the rails on occasion. Thats fine as long as it goes back on topic.

The sad truth is that the admin team has been slipping towards and basically is at this point an old boys club a clique that you have to get on board with or move the fuck along.

This is actually very relevant. You shouldn't have to kiss ass to get things done or have common sense laws.

[Tornadium]

Wasn't the player elected headmin intended to be the community vote?

[starmute]

Wasn't the player elected headmin intended to be the community vote?

A headmin doesn't necessarily have to listen to his/her constituents. Once you're in you can do whatever you want with virtual impunity. Its kinda like tenure as a professor.

[Jordie0608]

-snip-

A vote doesn't guarantee change; there has to be someone to actually make the change and they can always just ignore the vote and go with their own intentions. At which point, what would you do?

Implementing just a system of votes wouldn't really be any different from the norm. Doing something like giving editing power to everyone would naturally be pandemonium.

Absolute control isn't bad, just the misuse of it is.

[starmute]

-snip-

A vote doesn't guarantee change; there has to be someone to actually make the change and they can always just ignore the vote and go with their own intentions. At which point, what would you do?

Implementing just a system of votes wouldn't really be any different from the norm. Doing something like giving editing power to everyone would naturally be pandemonium.

Absolute control isn't bad, just the misuse of it is.

If implementing a system of votes isn't different than the norm, then why not allow people to vote for policies when something like this is WILDLY unpopular?

Here's how I see things:

Look I'm not saying give immediate power to everyone. I'm saying that there should be a mechanism to overturn unpopular or bad decisions.

Here's the big thing


If you have the idea that the headmins represent the best of the community, why should they not be accountable to that community?

If headmins are not accountable to the community then there shouldn't be a vote for headmins, or the idea that they are accountable to that community due to the fact they have absolute power, in fact there shouldn't even be a forum or a place to discuss policy if that is the case because any policy discussion is fruitless.

[oranges]

The point is that the headmins are a layer of indirection to avoid at the end of the day too much pointless bureaucracy over a 2d space game where two people provide 99% of the funding and another guy puts his name on the bill.

[Stickymayhem]

What is this thread even

Its about community guidelines and asking for a community vote. It keeps going off the rails on occasion. Thats fine as long as it goes back on topic.

The sad truth is that the admin team has been slipping towards and basically is at this point an old boys club a clique that you have to get on board with or move the fuck along.

This is actually very relevant. You shouldn't have to kiss ass to get things done or have common sense laws.

Don't you fucking dare change my font size

[Ikarrus]

Don't worry, guys, John Oxford has a solution for us

[ThanatosRa]

What is this thread even

Its about community guidelines and asking for a community vote. It keeps going off the rails on occasion. Thats fine as long as it goes back on topic.

The sad truth is that the admin team has been slipping towards and basically is at this point an old boys club a clique that you have to get on board with or move the fuck along.

This is actually very relevant. You shouldn't have to kiss ass to get things done or have common sense laws.

Don't you fucking dare change my font size

I tried to make it bigger cuz 'I'M HELPING' But I couldn't and now i am sad.

[starmute]

Don't you fucking dare change my font size

No.
(｡◕‿◕｡) this is my fetish

Also

The point is that the headmins are a layer of indirection to avoid at the end of the day too much pointless bureaucracy over a 2d space game where two people provide 99% of the funding and another guy puts his name on the bill.

That's a shit answer. We literally drove the one person funding tgstation to the brink (SoS). Regardless there should be some oversight. It shouldn't be a crapshoot of "Pick a shitter and hope for the best"

I've said it before with space law and I'll say it again, without a community vote this is the fate of all users.


Enjoy your shit sandwich because you have no choice but to eat it. And don't worry, you'll be eating more, and not just from HG .

And if you're a admin,you are all going to take a bite and and you are going to smile. Not because you love how it tastes but because the only way to say that shit sandwich tastes great and hope they will listen to you after you are done giving them the reach around.

[Saegrimr]

And if you're a admin, you're all going to take a bite and and you're going to smile. Not because you love how it tastes but because the only way to say that shit sandwich tastes great and hope they will listen to you after you are done giving them the reach around.

Can you actually fuck off, cultist-chan?

[starmute]

And if you're a admin, you're all going to take a bite and and you're going to smile. Not because you love how it tastes but because the only way to say that shit sandwich tastes great and hope they will listen to you after you are done giving them the reach around.

Can you actually fuck off, cultist-chan?

Complaining about the circle-jerk getting to you?


Frankly I don't know who you are aside from a admin tag. Frankly I don't care.

[Tornadium]

Obviously since I'm on permanent VayKay at the moment (I'm still hoping Shaps and Ausops will reply to my attempts to talk to them and resolve whatever personal issue they have before I bother appealing) I can't really talk much about the current state of TG and what HG is doing.

All I've seen him do is run some tests on the server with other headmin approvals, I don't really see what is wrong with that. Yeah communication could be better but we've had much worse in the past. I do agree with the principle though that the community needs more ways to deal with issues coming from the admin team, It's a natural progression over time that admins in any system will become friends and will just support eachother no matter what happens regardless of the effects on the community.

[Aloraydrel]

Don't worry, guys, John Oxford has a solution for us

We could of had a golden age... but we didn't listen