Wizard Combat & Friendly Fire

[iamgoofball]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I recently got banned for accidentally hellfoaming a crewmember in medbay trying to suicide hellfoam the wizard.

The wizard was running Blink(probably x2), Lightning Bolt, Repulse, and Jaunt.

Blink works while stunned and will instantly throw you out of harm's way.
Repulse allows you to disarm and stun everyone on your screen.
Lightning Bolt allows you to electrocute and stun everyone on your screen.
Jaunt allows you to escape any situation.

The wizard also had the entire medbay supplies that he got while, suprise suprise, aoe stun slamming all of medbay so he could waltz off with shit no problem.

Let's go over the standard "kill the antag" methods:
1. Mob Justice: This doesn't work due to the Repulse + Lightning Bolt combo. He can clear a room out then jaunt away.
2. Security: This doesn't work due to Blink + Repulse. He can disarm every officer in the area of their stunners, then jaunt away. If he IS stunned, Blink works while stunned, rendering that null and obsolete.
3. Bombs: This is 1 of the 2 methods that have a chance to work. A wizard can't escape from a 5,10,20 bomb. Unless he's a lich, in which case haha its over you just failed to bomb the wizard, enjoy your ban.
4. Chemical Bombs: This is the other method that has a chance to work. You have to instantly dose him with a ton of chemicals and pray that he doesn't have any Calomel but it'll kill him. If you miss at all anyone in the vicinity dies and you cop a ban.
5. Pray to Space Jesus: Hope to fuck the wizard gets hit by a lag spike or something that allows you to strip him of his clothes and gag him. wait haha no that doesnt work due to blink, fuck me nevermind

Can you see the problem with the two methods to kill a wizard being a "better hope rngesus is on your side otherwise haha enjoy ur ban nerd"?

I'd like to propose that Friendly Fire to take down a wizard isn't nearly as serious, provided you aren't intentionally killing the crewmembers and that you aren't using it as an excuse to maxcap the station.

tl;dr:
allow "welp shit door closed and my grenade didnt go through, rip that guy and myself, fuck wizard got away"
disallow "haha i just maxcapped the south side of the station in case the wizard's there :^)"

[iamgoofball]

If you use big massive piles of fuckdeath, you're responsible for all the people you get with it. Especially if you fuck it up.

Was always an old rule that you can suicide bomb(Hellfoam I guess) the wizard. If you succeed, grats! A winner is you! If you miss. You banned.

Take the risk and miss, deal with it.

Did you even fucking read the thread?

[iamgoofball]

I am stating that the problem was that your chemical had gone off and had injured a multitude, and so I am showing you that there are more alternatives that have less backfire.

are you even fucking reading anything jesus christ

[peoplearestrange]

Nope, read the start, then realised it was a goofball moan.
Probably didn't need to comment, but work is slow today.

Boy your in aggressive mode today aren't cha?

[Xhagi]

I'm with Kor in that

I dislike bans like this because I think giant fiery explosions and mass collateral damage are part of the charm of the game.

In the end I feel the intent behind the action is more important than the result.

[iamgoofball]

Nope, read the start, then realised it was a goofball moan.
Probably didn't need to comment, but work is slow today.

Boy your in aggressive mode today aren't cha?

so what you're saying is you decided to be a fucking dickweed and not even read the fucking OP before commenting

please remove the metal spiked baseball bat from your anus, read the thread in full, and try again please

[Saegrimr]

If you use big massive piles of fuckdeath, you're responsible for all the people you get with it. Especially if you fuck it up.

Was always an old rule that you can suicide bomb(Hellfoam I guess) the wizard. If you succeed, grats! A winner is you! If you miss. You banned.

Take the risk and miss, deal with it.

Yeah but its starting to become more and more... How do I put it.

Wizard's arsenal is evolving to the point where the bigger and riskier methods are becoming the only feasible ways to take them down, even then that gets negated by Lich and the mulligan afterwards.

Imagine you detonate those multiple-bombcap TTVs you whipped up "just in case wink wink for mining wink wink", you got the wizard and he wasn't a lich! And also genetics, robotics, botany, and light devastation that busted up the other half of medbay, R&D, and the 15 other validhunters nearby.

But hooray! You got the wizard! Everything is fine!

Then round converts into traitor. Everybody left has to deal with that shit.

[iamgoofball]

Isn't Mulligan disabled for wizard by default? Why is it even mulligan eligible? What admin would let it mulligan into traitor?

[peoplearestrange]

If you use big massive piles of fuckdeath, you're responsible for all the people you get with it. Especially if you fuck it up.

Was always an old rule that you can suicide bomb(Hellfoam I guess) the wizard. If you succeed, grats! A winner is you! If you miss. You banned.

Take the risk and miss, deal with it.

Yeah but its starting to become more and more... How do I put it.

Wizard's arsenal is evolving to the point where the bigger and riskier methods are becoming the only feasible ways to take them down, even then that gets negated by Lich and the mulligan afterwards.

Imagine you detonate those multiple-bombcap TTVs you whipped up "just in case wink wink for mining wink wink", you got the wizard and he wasn't a lich! And also genetics, robotics, botany, and light devastation that busted up the other half of medbay, R&D, and the 15 other validhunters nearby.

But hooray! You got the wizard! Everything is fine!

Then round converts into traitor. Everybody left has to deal with that shit.

I suppose thats mainly because muligans happened a lot of people still have the mindset of round ending scenarios, rather than thinking about having to pick up the pieces where they left off.

[yackemflam]

You guys realize that gibbing a lich stops the lcihf forever, right?
If you get gibbed as a lich, game over.

[Xhagi]

To clarify, when a wizard is killed the admins are asked if they want to mulligan or end the current round.

Typically (and most commonly as far as I see with the other admins) I go about ending it, your results may vary. Also if no admin is on or no one responds to the prompt it automatically mulligans.

[ShadowDimentio]

Swap the defaults on that and call it a day

[PKPenguin321]

I dislike bans like this because I think giant fiery explosions and mass collateral damage are part of the charm of the game.

[Armhulen]

Now, I am not an admin, and it will be a long time until I consider becoming one, but I still understand that a really big part of being an admin is knowing intent, and I feel that goof should not have been banned for that. Did he hellfoam? Yes. But he didn't hellfoam to kill bystanders, he did it to kill the wizard. And if he does it and it doesn't kill the wizard, should realize that he did it in the hopes that it would, right? I don't know, the idea that you can get banned if you try a tactic and it doesn't work seems wrong, I don't know.

[Durkel]

Let Me start by saying this : In over for years of wizard I have never lost as a wizard.

Wizard as it currently stands can be near impossible to defeat in the hands of a player who knows how to play well. You don't even need knowledge of wizard spells because even just basic robustness will be enough when you have three escapes, four stuns, and multiple attack spell types to choose from. The only time I have ever come close to losing a wizard was with a bomb blast. Shotguns have never got close, erts have always failed, and even the shitty chemist with a syringe gun can be juked or avoided fairly easy. If you're going to make a antag so incredibly overpowered that the crew stands basically zero chance,then you should never ban them for a desperation bomb/grenade/whatever no matter how badly it fails as long as it was intended to kill the wizard.

Keep in mind that I never take spells some as jaunt or ei nath, so it gets even worse when those are factored in.

[Tornadium]

Wizard rounds need to go the way of Rev/Gang and just be complete hands off for admins unless it's a case of blatant grief.

Random sec member bombing the entire security force in the brig FNR is grief, having someone try to kill a nigh unkillable threat using an explosive device is not grief.

Intent is important and people need to learn and understand that shit does happen and your round may not be in your control all of the time. Special snowflake rules do not apply, especially against an antagonist that can in some situations insta kill you before you can even react.

[bandit]

I would prefer it be enforced a bit like blob is, i.e. dependent on how long shit has gone on:

- Wizard literally just got there and you're just itching to use bombs right away? Nope, ban he.
- Wizard has been wizarding around for a while, none of your current measures are using? Sure, bombs are fine, might want to ahelp first but I personally would not say no.

This also makes more sense RP-wise, you wouldn't use a "last resort" as the first line of defense but neither would you arbitrarily not do so because of OOC fear

[Tornadium]

I would prefer it be enforced a bit like blob is, i.e. dependent on how long shit has gone on:

- Wizard literally just got there and you're just itching to use bombs right away? Nope, ban he.
- Wizard has been wizarding around for a while, none of your current measures are using? Sure, bombs are fine, might want to ahelp first but I personally would not say no.

This also makes more sense RP-wise, you wouldn't use a "last resort" as the first line of defense but neither would you arbitrarily not do so because of OOC fear

Seems rather pointless to make people wait an indeterminate period of time before using tools that can actually deal with a threat.

You can usually tell incredibly quickly if it's going to be one of those long wizard rounds or not.

[bandit]

It's not an indeterminate amount of time, it's "is this truly the last resort, or is it more like literally the first resort"?

[Tornadium]

It's not an indeterminate amount of time, it's "is this truly the last resort, or is it more like literally the first resort"?

That's the point though, why does it have to be the last resort if it's literally the only effective method of dealing with it?

Should I try stunning people with a mop before realizing it's ineffective so I can finally use my baton?

[Saegrimr]

It's not an indeterminate amount of time, it's "is this truly the last resort, or is it more like literally the first resort"?

That's the point though, why does it have to be the last resort if it's literally the only effective method of dealing with it?

Should I try stunning people with a mop before realizing it's ineffective so I can finally use my baton?

This is starting to sound like everybody's problem with "escalation"

"Why should I just let the guy go so he can come back and kill me I should just gib him for taking my gloves."

[Armhulen]

I would prefer it be enforced a bit like blob is, i.e. dependent on how long shit has gone on:

- Wizard literally just got there and you're just itching to use bombs right away? Nope, ban he.
- Wizard has been wizarding around for a while, none of your current measures are using? Sure, bombs are fine, might want to ahelp first but I personally would not say no.

This also makes more sense RP-wise, you wouldn't use a "last resort" as the first line of defense but neither would you arbitrarily not do so because of OOC fear

I guess, but how much time would that be? It seems like a really broken rule as is.

[TheNightingale]

Try talking with them first. If that fails, and they've done shifty stuff, try announcing your intent to arrest them. If they don't submit, try and stun them (use Beepsky if you have to). If they fight back, or if they've already lethally attacked people, break out the lasers and riot shotguns. If lethal force is required, but insufficient, and you're sure you have no other options (e.g. syringe gun with perfluorodecalin/neurotoxin/phlogiston), boom.

Always start at the peaceful route, then escalate proportionately from there (if they skip straight to lethals - e.g. ei nath -, so can you!). If you see a wizard and try to bludgeon them to death before they've done anything, the wizard isn't the problem, you are.

[Armhulen]

The first time we didn't bludgeon invaders liggers became a thing

[Shadowlight213]

The problem with bombs specifically, and a couple of chem mixes, is that they don't just kill bystanders. They blow a big fucking hole to space, and basically fuck the rest of the crew by denying them the ability to traverse that area for the rest of the round.
You tried to suicide max cap the wizard and missed? Well, you killed a few crewmembers. You also blew up near the caps office, so half of medbay is gone, the east part of the station is kinda blocked off to people without spacesuits, power in the main halls and bridge is offline, preventing access to the comms console. Shit is kinda fucked for the remaining wiz fighters.
But it's fine, it was the best first resort to try when wizard was called out and you didn't do it to grief, so it's all good. Just keep trying it as the first option when you hear wizard.

[lumipharon]

Yes, let me try all those methods to kill the wizard which are terrible and have a low chance of working.
Yes, lets keep trying that and let dozens of people get murdered by the wizard in the meantime, possibly including myself.

A wizard systematically wipe out the crew because they're nearly untouchable is fun for precisely one person.

[callanrockslol]

If its not a lich execution syringes in a syringe gg wizard.

If it is a lich instagib spear or charge around spamming lasers and flashbangs.

[yackemflam]

Try talking with them first. If that fails, and they've done shifty stuff, try announcing your intent to arrest them. If they don't submit, try and stun them (use Beepsky if you have to). If they fight back, or if they've already lethally attacked people, break out the lasers and riot shotguns. If lethal force is required, but insufficient, and you're sure you have no other options (e.g. syringe gun with perfluorodecalin/neurotoxin/phlogiston), boom.

Always start at the peaceful route, then escalate proportionately from there (if they skip straight to lethals - e.g. ei nath -, so can you!). If you see a wizard and try to bludgeon them to death before they've done anything, the wizard isn't the problem, you are.

Dude, wizards are the enemy of NT, it is your DUTY to kill them.
Kill all wizards.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Its explicitly stated in the command report that the Wizard in the Wizard gametype is an escaped convict, too