Economy Implementation
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- Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:50 pm
- Byond Username: Antimattercarp
Economy Implementation
As you may or may not realize, both of the economy pulls fell through because, like bayeconomy, money had no real value assigned to it and worries were had that it would be used to gate already existing content behind arbitrary prices. Not only is this less of a problem than you would think, it is in fact already partially implemented in the code right now: Mining.
As an overview, the mining economy works like this: A miner starts the game with a mining voucher in his backpack which gives him a set amount of mining points which allows him to purchase his starting equipment, as he delivers materials(i.e. Does his job) he earns more points to buy new things and new equipment.
Now applying that to other jobs we get "x job starts with y amount of nanocredits which can be used to purchase m, n, or b equipment, as he completes the [Job mechanism] he earns more nanocredits to purchase different, more powerful/more useful equipment to do his job." This is the central mechanic is how the economy will allow for us to actually balance different equipments around their utility and most importantly reduce the servers reliance on the hackneyed and jury-rigged R&D system for balancing our cooler things, meaning we both get more cool stuff and see that cool stuff more often because instead of relying on some far away, maybe incompetent, scientist who may or may not exist it is instead made to rely on your competence.
The inclusion of an economy also adds a OOC motivation to the game other than antag greentext, something that has long been sorely needed and will provide opportunity for emergent roleplay.
Now that why it exists is established let us move on to how we can implement it properly into the game.
I think that each job should have a set starting amount of cash in their account and a set stipend that filters into their account per pay period along with some mechanism to add more cash as they do their job. The purpose of this thread is to brainstorm how this should go about along with other ideas of how to implement an economy into tg code.
One of the most important departments in this is of course cargo. I foresee cargo switching from a game of "I PRESS THE BUTTONS AND MOVE THE THINGS" to a drugwars!-esque game of arbitrage where the price of certain items fluctuates from time period to time period, where you can stick to the white market and play things nice and fair or go into the black market by switching your ordering board to broadband where there are higher profit margins and rare/unique/illegal items but it carries the risk of having unsavory things come over on the cargo shuttle as well. The also could exist a set of random contracts that you can buy into and have to send back a certain set of items in a limited time period or lose the collateral you invested in the contract.
Engineering is tough to toss into this but could have a factorio-esque system bolted onto it where they build assembly lines to mass produce goods from set designs that are either purchased by cargo on the open market or developed from Science. They could also sell power from their !!EXPERIMENTAL ENGINES!! via !!GIANT SPACE LASER!! thus encouraging them to make more engines and more things.
Science should have the most variable ways to make money, slime growing, xeno-archeology, anomaly capture, and away missions should all be high-skill high-lethality high-profit jobs involving various puzzles to solve and reality TV al la survivorman for the crew to watch via helmet cam in the bar.
Medicals' job is pretty clearly the maintenance of the crew but it could also be a place for the crews augmentation. The only place on the station that has a operating theater in it medical can give integrated toolsets to the engies, eyelamps, blood filters, artificial hearts that allow you to run faster.
Service already grows strange plants that are transformed into even stranger food and drink which can be sold to crew and cargo alike. Being the *Arr Pee* center of the station I suggest integrating the holodeck even more into the department, allowing for an exhibition hall where the department can charge admission to and sell purses for tests of skill, speed, and robustness. Maybe becoming a gambling mecca with bookies allowing bets to be placed on the outcome of boxing matches, poker games, and holo-gladiatorial bouts.
Security of course can now both charge people with crimes and for crimes! Throw em in the gulag if they will not pay and sell their sweat and tears to cargo!
Secs' job is to make sure that the rest of the departments play nice, I could likely dig up something on how an-cap cops work if you want.
Clown and mime work by busking and being entertaining.
Chaplain impounds your dead body
Now one of my more interesting ideas is that one vending machine somewhere can have a special code entered into it and sell illegal goods to the general public, contraband like syndie gear and voice changers and such just to obfuscate actual syndie activity. The activation code and location is distributed at random to everyone at roundstart and as you join the round so long as you are one of the lesser jobs.
Praise Capitalism! Through globalization encourage RP!
As an overview, the mining economy works like this: A miner starts the game with a mining voucher in his backpack which gives him a set amount of mining points which allows him to purchase his starting equipment, as he delivers materials(i.e. Does his job) he earns more points to buy new things and new equipment.
Now applying that to other jobs we get "x job starts with y amount of nanocredits which can be used to purchase m, n, or b equipment, as he completes the [Job mechanism] he earns more nanocredits to purchase different, more powerful/more useful equipment to do his job." This is the central mechanic is how the economy will allow for us to actually balance different equipments around their utility and most importantly reduce the servers reliance on the hackneyed and jury-rigged R&D system for balancing our cooler things, meaning we both get more cool stuff and see that cool stuff more often because instead of relying on some far away, maybe incompetent, scientist who may or may not exist it is instead made to rely on your competence.
The inclusion of an economy also adds a OOC motivation to the game other than antag greentext, something that has long been sorely needed and will provide opportunity for emergent roleplay.
Now that why it exists is established let us move on to how we can implement it properly into the game.
I think that each job should have a set starting amount of cash in their account and a set stipend that filters into their account per pay period along with some mechanism to add more cash as they do their job. The purpose of this thread is to brainstorm how this should go about along with other ideas of how to implement an economy into tg code.
One of the most important departments in this is of course cargo. I foresee cargo switching from a game of "I PRESS THE BUTTONS AND MOVE THE THINGS" to a drugwars!-esque game of arbitrage where the price of certain items fluctuates from time period to time period, where you can stick to the white market and play things nice and fair or go into the black market by switching your ordering board to broadband where there are higher profit margins and rare/unique/illegal items but it carries the risk of having unsavory things come over on the cargo shuttle as well. The also could exist a set of random contracts that you can buy into and have to send back a certain set of items in a limited time period or lose the collateral you invested in the contract.
Engineering is tough to toss into this but could have a factorio-esque system bolted onto it where they build assembly lines to mass produce goods from set designs that are either purchased by cargo on the open market or developed from Science. They could also sell power from their !!EXPERIMENTAL ENGINES!! via !!GIANT SPACE LASER!! thus encouraging them to make more engines and more things.
Science should have the most variable ways to make money, slime growing, xeno-archeology, anomaly capture, and away missions should all be high-skill high-lethality high-profit jobs involving various puzzles to solve and reality TV al la survivorman for the crew to watch via helmet cam in the bar.
Medicals' job is pretty clearly the maintenance of the crew but it could also be a place for the crews augmentation. The only place on the station that has a operating theater in it medical can give integrated toolsets to the engies, eyelamps, blood filters, artificial hearts that allow you to run faster.
Service already grows strange plants that are transformed into even stranger food and drink which can be sold to crew and cargo alike. Being the *Arr Pee* center of the station I suggest integrating the holodeck even more into the department, allowing for an exhibition hall where the department can charge admission to and sell purses for tests of skill, speed, and robustness. Maybe becoming a gambling mecca with bookies allowing bets to be placed on the outcome of boxing matches, poker games, and holo-gladiatorial bouts.
Security of course can now both charge people with crimes and for crimes! Throw em in the gulag if they will not pay and sell their sweat and tears to cargo!
Secs' job is to make sure that the rest of the departments play nice, I could likely dig up something on how an-cap cops work if you want.
Clown and mime work by busking and being entertaining.
Chaplain impounds your dead body
Now one of my more interesting ideas is that one vending machine somewhere can have a special code entered into it and sell illegal goods to the general public, contraband like syndie gear and voice changers and such just to obfuscate actual syndie activity. The activation code and location is distributed at random to everyone at roundstart and as you join the round so long as you are one of the lesser jobs.
Praise Capitalism! Through globalization encourage RP!
- Stan_Studnick
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:39 am
- Byond Username: Stan_Studnick
Re: Economy Implementation
Engineering really shouldn't have any real need for the economy system, they're supposed to be busy fixing shit not supplying the station. Really they should have more to do, machines breaking down, door maintenance so nobody gets sliced in half, and other fun stuff like that so they're a bit more involved. Right now the only thing they ever do is fix broken windows and fix hull breaches after initial setup which takes like a minute, so most of their round is autismfort and when you do actually need them they're either braindead or dead somewhere or off comms for whatever reason.
I posted an idea to expand cargo's functions to include a manufacturing center and the distribution of goods through the disposals/mail system. Everything under this system would be integrated, cargo handling the actual production of science's mad science, basic goods, and also packaging and distributing food from kitchen/botany to be put into vending machines. Blueprints of items could be researched, and maybe the experimentor could be used to buff these blueprints so the finished item gets produced with some fun additional properties. Really it's like little forts now that barely communicate with each other, there needs to be more integration between the departments.
Currently even distributing items is kind of a pain in the ass, using the MULE is buggy and getting people to come down to cargo is hit or miss and the paperwork system (which does clear up a LOT of confusion when it's used) is clunky and dumb. Giving cargo the ability to see orders on their PDAs and see the records of shipping manifests stored would make tracking everything down easier. Also making it so the order progress can be displayed in real time, so everyone can check to see what needs to be done before shipping it out.
Also on the vending machines, instead of some generic cartridge that defines the machine this system would have the machines take generic racks or cartridges that are for a specific item category on the menu. If your 4noraisins run out, putting in a rack of chef-made cheeseburgers would replace the 4noraisins on the menu and display the cheeseburgers instead. Empty racks simply get tossed in the trash where cargo can either recycle them or reuse them.
I posted an idea to expand cargo's functions to include a manufacturing center and the distribution of goods through the disposals/mail system. Everything under this system would be integrated, cargo handling the actual production of science's mad science, basic goods, and also packaging and distributing food from kitchen/botany to be put into vending machines. Blueprints of items could be researched, and maybe the experimentor could be used to buff these blueprints so the finished item gets produced with some fun additional properties. Really it's like little forts now that barely communicate with each other, there needs to be more integration between the departments.
Currently even distributing items is kind of a pain in the ass, using the MULE is buggy and getting people to come down to cargo is hit or miss and the paperwork system (which does clear up a LOT of confusion when it's used) is clunky and dumb. Giving cargo the ability to see orders on their PDAs and see the records of shipping manifests stored would make tracking everything down easier. Also making it so the order progress can be displayed in real time, so everyone can check to see what needs to be done before shipping it out.
Also on the vending machines, instead of some generic cartridge that defines the machine this system would have the machines take generic racks or cartridges that are for a specific item category on the menu. If your 4noraisins run out, putting in a rack of chef-made cheeseburgers would replace the 4noraisins on the menu and display the cheeseburgers instead. Empty racks simply get tossed in the trash where cargo can either recycle them or reuse them.
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- Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:47 pm
- Byond Username: Callanrockslol
Re: Economy Implementation
Hard coded nations every round.
The most excessive signature on /tg/station13.
Still not even at the limit after 8 fucking years.
The evil holoparasite user I can't believe its not DIO and his holoparasite I can't believe its not Skub have been defeated by the Spacedust Crusaders, but what has been taken from the station can never be returned.
OOC: TheGel: Literally a guy in a suit with a shuttle full of xenos. That's a doozy
Still not even at the limit after 8 fucking years.
Spoiler:
OOC: TheGel: Literally a guy in a suit with a shuttle full of xenos. That's a doozy
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- Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:23 am
- Byond Username: Miauw62
Re: Economy Implementation
economy isn't happening
on consideration it's not a very good idea anyway; it's way too hard to provide a proper incentive for people to use it, and an economy system that nobody uses is worse than none at all.
i've thought of most of these and a lot just boil down to "charge people for your services/goods", which people will not be inclined to do.
rip ;_;7
on consideration it's not a very good idea anyway; it's way too hard to provide a proper incentive for people to use it, and an economy system that nobody uses is worse than none at all.
i've thought of most of these and a lot just boil down to "charge people for your services/goods", which people will not be inclined to do.
rip ;_;7
<wb> For one, the spaghetti is killing me. It's everywhere in food code, and makes it harder to clean those up.
<Tobba> I stared into BYOND and it farted
- Celdur
- Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 1:43 pm
- Byond Username: Celdurr
Re: Economy Implementation
What you need is to make incentive for people to want more money.
Because that will lead them to charging people for their services.
If the chef doesn't leave all his foods out on the counter, people will have to pay for it or break in, at which point he could call security.
Right now no one wants to RP throwing numbers around because there is no point.
same with paperwork, no one will ever look at paperwork so its just a fun little RP thing you can do and nothing more.
Of course if you have a system where everyone demands to get paid for their services, you have a system where people want money to pay for it, but that's not going to happen on its own.
I think making something similar to the goody vending machine that miners have, and maybe place some other common items behind paywalls too.
At first you might think that adding items behind paywalls would add just that, a paywall, but I'm pretty sure it will add a lot of interesting new dynamics.
Trade between players, thieves and heists, lots of more non antag baddies to chase as a result, and more player interaction in general.
I mean, if you have to buy your hamburgers, that means you strike up a conversation with the chef instead of just rushing by and shoving everything you see down your throat.
I think dick comparisons at round end would help too, to see who or which department made the most dosh.
Also if departments relied on a budget for say, ordering stuff from cargo and such, that would further make people think about money.
I'd say its worth playtesting at least, because right now people zoom passed each other in their treasure hunts for items they need, and no one interacts with each other anymore.
And honestly, even if the whole "charge people for services" doesn't work out, you could have hourly wages for some jobs instead.
Because that will lead them to charging people for their services.
If the chef doesn't leave all his foods out on the counter, people will have to pay for it or break in, at which point he could call security.
Right now no one wants to RP throwing numbers around because there is no point.
same with paperwork, no one will ever look at paperwork so its just a fun little RP thing you can do and nothing more.
Of course if you have a system where everyone demands to get paid for their services, you have a system where people want money to pay for it, but that's not going to happen on its own.
I think making something similar to the goody vending machine that miners have, and maybe place some other common items behind paywalls too.
At first you might think that adding items behind paywalls would add just that, a paywall, but I'm pretty sure it will add a lot of interesting new dynamics.
Trade between players, thieves and heists, lots of more non antag baddies to chase as a result, and more player interaction in general.
I mean, if you have to buy your hamburgers, that means you strike up a conversation with the chef instead of just rushing by and shoving everything you see down your throat.
I think dick comparisons at round end would help too, to see who or which department made the most dosh.
Also if departments relied on a budget for say, ordering stuff from cargo and such, that would further make people think about money.
I'd say its worth playtesting at least, because right now people zoom passed each other in their treasure hunts for items they need, and no one interacts with each other anymore.
And honestly, even if the whole "charge people for services" doesn't work out, you could have hourly wages for some jobs instead.
- Screemonster
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:23 pm
- Byond Username: Scree
Re: Economy Implementation
The only department that really has to expend anything besides effort or materials is cargo. Chemistry has replenishing energy in the chem dispensers, the chef/botanist grow their ingredients, slimes just reproduce themselves, and so on.
Swapping cargo points out for a cash value and granting the points-allowance-per-minute thing to the various departments in the form of their departmental budget might help, as well as ringfencing things so security don't get coldcocked on a weapons crate because all the roundstart points got spent on crap for engineering's latest aut-fort. Allow the ordering console to pick out an account to charge the order to if approved and you're golden. Sending crap back to centcomm gets paid into the supply budget - cargo would still retain the ability to just provide things on-request using their own allowance, just as they are now with the supply points. This just offers a way for individuals/departments to top the points up (or for the QM to not have to give a shit about wasting points on an art crate for the clown if the clown's paying out of his own pocket)
On the game side of things, tators can be given objectives to embezzle a fuckton of cash since carrying fat stacks of cash around is no longer going to just be a thing that traitors do. (obviously more than they'd be able to get from the briefcase-full-of-cash item - where do you think the syndicate get the funds for those?)
Swapping cargo points out for a cash value and granting the points-allowance-per-minute thing to the various departments in the form of their departmental budget might help, as well as ringfencing things so security don't get coldcocked on a weapons crate because all the roundstart points got spent on crap for engineering's latest aut-fort. Allow the ordering console to pick out an account to charge the order to if approved and you're golden. Sending crap back to centcomm gets paid into the supply budget - cargo would still retain the ability to just provide things on-request using their own allowance, just as they are now with the supply points. This just offers a way for individuals/departments to top the points up (or for the QM to not have to give a shit about wasting points on an art crate for the clown if the clown's paying out of his own pocket)
On the game side of things, tators can be given objectives to embezzle a fuckton of cash since carrying fat stacks of cash around is no longer going to just be a thing that traitors do. (obviously more than they'd be able to get from the briefcase-full-of-cash item - where do you think the syndicate get the funds for those?)
- JackHunt
- Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:12 pm
- Byond Username: JackHunt
Re: Economy Implementation
Maybe a more manageable implementation would just be the cargo revamp. It's smaller, more modular and even if economy doesn't pan out, it's an improvement.
- CPTANT
- Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
- Byond Username: CPTANT
Re: Economy Implementation
Give Cargo a more active role.
Cargo's role has been almost completely surpassed by the RnD department. Except for ordering virus crates or ripley crates (and nowadays RnD just prints those themselves) the only real significance cargo really has left is during rev/gang to order either implants or guns. During most traitor rounds cargo isn't even missed when completely absent. Usually the only thing for cargo to do is to shamelessly self enrich with insulated gloves and other gear.
Nobody NEEDS cargo.
Give cargo a list on the cargo console of goods that they can exchange for cargo points. This way cargo becomes an active place of trade as they trade the goods they can order for the goods they need.
Combine this with expanding what cargo can order and tweak prices.
Cargo's role has been almost completely surpassed by the RnD department. Except for ordering virus crates or ripley crates (and nowadays RnD just prints those themselves) the only real significance cargo really has left is during rev/gang to order either implants or guns. During most traitor rounds cargo isn't even missed when completely absent. Usually the only thing for cargo to do is to shamelessly self enrich with insulated gloves and other gear.
Nobody NEEDS cargo.
Give cargo a list on the cargo console of goods that they can exchange for cargo points. This way cargo becomes an active place of trade as they trade the goods they can order for the goods they need.
Combine this with expanding what cargo can order and tweak prices.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
- Saegrimr
- Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:39 pm
- Byond Username: Saegrimr
Re: Economy Implementation
Shit that's not a bad idea.CPTANT wrote:Give cargo a list on the cargo console of goods that they can exchange for cargo points. This way cargo becomes an active place of trade as they trade the goods they can order for the goods they need.
Ship centcom a couple ripleys, and get some durand parts back.
Send a high score printed out report from the bangmeter over at toxins, get back a couple more transfer valves or something as a "good work keep up the research"
Or save research data to a disk and ship that back, get.. fuck i dunno man
Something like that?
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
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- Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:23 am
- Byond Username: Miauw62
Re: Economy Implementation
yeah that sounds cool
<wb> For one, the spaghetti is killing me. It's everywhere in food code, and makes it harder to clean those up.
<Tobba> I stared into BYOND and it farted
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- Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 6:53 pm
- Byond Username: Cheimon
Re: Economy Implementation
The reason economy doesn't interest me that much is because it doesn't make a lot of sense. Why in spoilers, I know people don't enjoy reading massive walls of unnecessary text.
What's my point? First off, if you're making a personal economy make it just about vending machines and novelty crates (and maybe not even that). Don't try to complicate things by merging the other points systems or adding unnecessary and illogical blocks to gameplay, that doesn't make sense.
Second, in a real workplace the people who spend money are department heads (or rather, they apply to the accounting department, but let's not overcomplicate things). They look at what their section of the company needs, they draw up a budget, they get that budget, and then they spend it.
Make an economy system based on that. It gives the heads power, it fits with established gameplay, it makes integrating cargo sensible, and it eliminates the stupidly complicated everyone gets a salary it ticks up every few minutes etc etc. Ideas of how this will work in spoilers:
So, for those who don't want a wall of text (don't blame you) here's the TL;DR of how any economy should work.
Ignore personal salaries, they're illogical and shit. Put in departmental budgets, controlled by heads and overlorded by the captain. Heads get to spend their budgets on what matters to them, cargo still works as the gateway for crates to go in and out, and now the station has money set aside for all the different groups (boost) but a greater limit on each individual one of them (nerf) if they don't cooperate. Best of all, cargo doesn't have to sacrifice its points for stuff they don't see the point of.
This fits with how the game works already, but in some ways enhances it. You don't need to add more stuff for people to buy and you don't have to gate existing stuff behind illogical barriers. Oh, and don't add ways to make ridiculous amounts of money really fast (e.g. spamming mechs onto the cargo shuttle), that will only make the system pointless once the round is 30 minutes in.
Spoiler:
Second, in a real workplace the people who spend money are department heads (or rather, they apply to the accounting department, but let's not overcomplicate things). They look at what their section of the company needs, they draw up a budget, they get that budget, and then they spend it.
Make an economy system based on that. It gives the heads power, it fits with established gameplay, it makes integrating cargo sensible, and it eliminates the stupidly complicated everyone gets a salary it ticks up every few minutes etc etc. Ideas of how this will work in spoilers:
Spoiler:
Ignore personal salaries, they're illogical and shit. Put in departmental budgets, controlled by heads and overlorded by the captain. Heads get to spend their budgets on what matters to them, cargo still works as the gateway for crates to go in and out, and now the station has money set aside for all the different groups (boost) but a greater limit on each individual one of them (nerf) if they don't cooperate. Best of all, cargo doesn't have to sacrifice its points for stuff they don't see the point of.
This fits with how the game works already, but in some ways enhances it. You don't need to add more stuff for people to buy and you don't have to gate existing stuff behind illogical barriers. Oh, and don't add ways to make ridiculous amounts of money really fast (e.g. spamming mechs onto the cargo shuttle), that will only make the system pointless once the round is 30 minutes in.
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- Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:36 am
- Byond Username: Roadhog1
Re: Economy Implementation
I think it'd be better for most departments to have a base salary every five minutes with the head having an ability to bump up salaries with bonuses. That way play is more free and it gives players an OOC reason to give cool shit they can make to the heads.
- Gamarr
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:10 pm
- Byond Username: Gamarr
Re: Economy Implementation
First, I would like to point out Goon has(or had if its gone now) this, and it served its purpose, while also being a part of some antags objectives. Let that sink in a little; the place people like to laugh at found a way to use credits, and it worked while not making everything just not work if you didn't want to use it. There was even swipers in empty booths for people to set up their own markets, and people loved them from my experience. You could give your whole cheque to the chef, and he would use it to buy good shit from the vendors or cargo, making less dependence upon botany while not nullifying it. It made it easier to just get some basic things too, when cargo doesn't have to worry about losing its points/funds if you cover all/part of the food crate. You could not do anything with your credits too, and the kitchen functioned just like it normally would. But it made things easier, at a basic level and if you had enough and knew what to do, you could have more Fun.
I've wanted economy here for a long time, pretty much since I migrated to tg station, but I've accepted for the most part it will never happen. The players don't care/will whine about it that it just will fizzle, though I do keep a faint hope.
Now onto some points: Cargo should lose the 'free points' system in lieu of this. A fully staffed cargo could easily pool their money to get what their hearts desires more than likely (or should), atop of whatever they take in from people who want things. You could charge more, but if you're actually providing what people want, then they most likely will not care if you have a little mark-up in cost, if it makes sure they get what they want or need.
-Disposals delivery system is very robust imo, with one if its only failings being dependency upon the piping system and how easily it is to compromise it thanks to stupid assistant maintenance being on, in all the glorious no sense it is. But it does work, it just has a limited selection of delivery targets right now imo though that could be easily fixed. The fact nobody uses it/few seem to know even how doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But its there, and useful, and quick enough in sending crates or lockers to destinations.
-I've wanted shuttles to come with... 'extras' depending on ordered things, such as spiderlings in a food crate, or maybe blood-thirsty goats in lieu of your dog. Really the sky is the limit with the amount of fuckery you could do with this. Or a shuttle full of webs, but with the crates nonetheless. More interesting than 'hey want a shuttle of hostile syndicates?'.
-Incentive for depts to actually give you a slime core to send back for money, or any number of things. Hah, even sending corpses back should be possible. I'm sure Centcomm has a bodyfarm or some kind of fertilizer creatoin system to put them to use. Or worse things.
Anyway, tl;dr already perhaps, the topic seems to just gravitate towards that and it seems getting something here implemented with such a lengthy discussion dooms itself to failure with such short attentoin spans.
The economy system will not break things, and other than cargo, imo, does not negate your job. It is there for you to use, for you to give to depts for their own benefit, or you to hoard and mug people over, If you want. It adds a fun element without removing things. Not all depts will be dependent upon it, and shouldn't be. People will find things to do with it, I trust in this, if people give the system a chance.
But they might not, as you can look at metastation for how much people don't want to give something a chance without even trying it, and squirming at 'change.'
Edit: Oh yeah, and no reason for assistants to get paid. They wanna be nobodies, they can be broke hobos, some won' t care anyway, some might. But then it's not had to get some work and this is what moving shit for the RD/miners/cargo is for, and will give them reasons to do something if they wanna be little grey nobodies without actually transferring.
I've wanted economy here for a long time, pretty much since I migrated to tg station, but I've accepted for the most part it will never happen. The players don't care/will whine about it that it just will fizzle, though I do keep a faint hope.
Now onto some points: Cargo should lose the 'free points' system in lieu of this. A fully staffed cargo could easily pool their money to get what their hearts desires more than likely (or should), atop of whatever they take in from people who want things. You could charge more, but if you're actually providing what people want, then they most likely will not care if you have a little mark-up in cost, if it makes sure they get what they want or need.
-Disposals delivery system is very robust imo, with one if its only failings being dependency upon the piping system and how easily it is to compromise it thanks to stupid assistant maintenance being on, in all the glorious no sense it is. But it does work, it just has a limited selection of delivery targets right now imo though that could be easily fixed. The fact nobody uses it/few seem to know even how doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But its there, and useful, and quick enough in sending crates or lockers to destinations.
-I've wanted shuttles to come with... 'extras' depending on ordered things, such as spiderlings in a food crate, or maybe blood-thirsty goats in lieu of your dog. Really the sky is the limit with the amount of fuckery you could do with this. Or a shuttle full of webs, but with the crates nonetheless. More interesting than 'hey want a shuttle of hostile syndicates?'.
-Incentive for depts to actually give you a slime core to send back for money, or any number of things. Hah, even sending corpses back should be possible. I'm sure Centcomm has a bodyfarm or some kind of fertilizer creatoin system to put them to use. Or worse things.
Anyway, tl;dr already perhaps, the topic seems to just gravitate towards that and it seems getting something here implemented with such a lengthy discussion dooms itself to failure with such short attentoin spans.
The economy system will not break things, and other than cargo, imo, does not negate your job. It is there for you to use, for you to give to depts for their own benefit, or you to hoard and mug people over, If you want. It adds a fun element without removing things. Not all depts will be dependent upon it, and shouldn't be. People will find things to do with it, I trust in this, if people give the system a chance.
But they might not, as you can look at metastation for how much people don't want to give something a chance without even trying it, and squirming at 'change.'
Edit: Oh yeah, and no reason for assistants to get paid. They wanna be nobodies, they can be broke hobos, some won' t care anyway, some might. But then it's not had to get some work and this is what moving shit for the RD/miners/cargo is for, and will give them reasons to do something if they wanna be little grey nobodies without actually transferring.
- Stan_Studnick
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:39 am
- Byond Username: Stan_Studnick
Re: Economy Implementation
Make the cargo-science marriage stronger like I've been suggesting. Move the production aspect of science into cargo and make science about literal science, you're researching things you're not supposed to be building them like an assembly line.CPTANT wrote:Give Cargo a more active role.
Cargo's role has been almost completely surpassed by the RnD department. Except for ordering virus crates or ripley crates (and nowadays RnD just prints those themselves) the only real significance cargo really has left is during rev/gang to order either implants or guns. During most traitor rounds cargo isn't even missed when completely absent. Usually the only thing for cargo to do is to shamelessly self enrich with insulated gloves and other gear.
Nobody NEEDS cargo.
Give cargo a list on the cargo console of goods that they can exchange for cargo points. This way cargo becomes an active place of trade as they trade the goods they can order for the goods they need.
Combine this with expanding what cargo can order and tweak prices.
Cargo should be less fetch and deliver and more integrated with the concept of production and supply, it's the only department really geared toward it and the only one explicitly designed for it. Right now the experimentor is useless shit that just makes gimmicky things that don't actually -do- anything, it's easy to get bored because you know in the end you're there because R&D and toxins are taken. I've been saying that science should research and produce blueprints of complex items that are used by cargo to manufacture things, so include the experimentor's functions in that. Make it so experimentation will yield a laser that does 16 damage instead of 15, a t-ray scanner that has a slight range increase, something that improves (not necessarily without cost) existing items and makes the cargo-science thing more than some silly one-way trip. Right now resources go out, and if the miners are lucky they'll get cool stuff in return but it does get boring real quick and especially if science isn't cooperating with you.
Yeah it's upending the entire science department basically but if this happens I guarantee you that both cargo and science will be better departments for it.
EDIT: To clarify I don't want to take away science's ability to make prototypes, I just want to shift the focus of actual production to the station's actual supply chain. I suppose since the production items are in the database that means the protolathe should probably get the ability to spit out multitools and buckets and things like that since I'm imagining it under the same system. Cargo's machine(s) (I'd like more than one type) could obviously do all of this faster and much more efficiently, but an additional idea I had awhile ago was make modular parts for everything and then they get assembled into a usable object. I don't like tablecrafting, but perhaps there could be some assembler machine that takes the spit-out parts and accepts user input into making some usable item.
I think this system would serve both a proposed economy system AND allow for the seamless integration of John Oxford's gunsmithing idea. Either way, making it so cargo can produce items on-station faster would be a definite end-goal for all of this because cargo currently takes awhile to produce even simple orders. That's a side-effect of the cargo shuttle system and interface, and really, that should be addressed as well.
- DemonFiren
- Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:15 pm
- Byond Username: DemonFiren
Re: Economy Implementation
With economy, what I'm honestly waiting for is paying for ERP.
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- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:05 pm
- Byond Username: Dazbuzz
Re: Economy Implementation
IMO Lifeweb does economy the best, but that kind of system probably wouldnt work for /tg/.
- Stan_Studnick
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:39 am
- Byond Username: Stan_Studnick
Re: Economy Implementation
Also could we make cash persist between rounds? Maybe that might give incentive to using it, I don't know. I have no idea how well that would even work out here.
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- Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 6:53 pm
- Byond Username: Cheimon
Re: Economy Implementation
For those of us that don't play lifeweb, can you summarise what it does and what's good about it?Alex Crimson wrote:IMO Lifeweb does economy the best, but that kind of system probably wouldnt work for /tg/.
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- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:05 pm
- Byond Username: Dazbuzz
Re: Economy Implementation
Its mostly decided upon by the players. There are copper coins, as well as silver and gold. 4 coppers = 1 silver, 4 silver = 1 gold. With that as a base the players decide on most of the prices. 1 copper for a drink, 2 for a meal, 14 for a steel sword etc. The Meister(job role) is responsible for paying people wages, although its all done at the players discretion so most of the time you NEVER get paid cuz the Meisters is incompetent.
The Merchant can send items to the city via a cargo ship, and all items give a fixed amount of currency. He can also see the fixed prices for each item when he examines them. So you can run an effective shop.
The Merchant can send items to the city via a cargo ship, and all items give a fixed amount of currency. He can also see the fixed prices for each item when he examines them. So you can run an effective shop.
- Scones
- Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:46 am
- Byond Username: Scones
- Location: cooler than thou
Re: Economy Implementation
The Merchant is expected to make a profit and all that.
People abused the system endlessly (If you ordered coal + iron from the merchant and made that into steel, the # of steel gorgets you could make would fully reimburse yourself and then give a decent sum left over) however.
Prices being randomized from round to round (Aspect possibility) makes it somewhat interesting.
People abused the system endlessly (If you ordered coal + iron from the merchant and made that into steel, the # of steel gorgets you could make would fully reimburse yourself and then give a decent sum left over) however.
Prices being randomized from round to round (Aspect possibility) makes it somewhat interesting.
plplplplp WOOOOooo hahahhaha
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- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:05 pm
- Byond Username: Dazbuzz
Re: Economy Implementation
I wouldnt call that abuse. Buying raw materials and making gear out of it to sell at a profit seems like a completely normal thing. If Randy wanted to fix that then he shouldve just made the prices of items crash if the Merchant shipped off too many of them.
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- Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 3:01 am
- Byond Username: Incomptinence
Re: Economy Implementation
Fun point of economy system could be hop or captain taking out loans from space bank and if they can't be re payed debts collector squad starts repossessing important equipment.
- Scones
- Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:46 am
- Byond Username: Scones
- Location: cooler than thou
Re: Economy Implementation
Yeah but it could be done in minutes and then bam you had mautlet crates being popped open and it was shit
plplplplp WOOOOooo hahahhaha
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