Final Armour/Weapon Proposals

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:17 am #120639

This is going to be my last hoorah attempt at examining armour protection and attack values for security and antagonists.

Right now this is simply in the design stage, but I want to see if we support or reject my proposal. Again if people dislike my attempted change I won't touch the issue of armour defence values again (at least in buffing them).

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New Armour Changes
Three Base Armour's On Station

Security Armour: 30 Melee, 35 Bullet, 40 Laser, 30 Bomb
Basic armour officers overall good protection against most attacks, and can be bought or stolen by antagonists (more later). Issued to all Sec personal, covers Torso only.

Note: HoS and Warden armour values will match Security armour values, their advantage is that they cover the entire lower body and not just the torso.

Ablative Armour: Laser Proof Armour: 10 Melee, 10 Bullet, 65 Laser, 70 Energy, 10 Bomb
The current ablative armour, now comes with a helmet for head defence. Torso only.

In addition.
Captain's Armour: 50 Melee, 45 Bullet, 50 Laser, 40 Bomb, 10 Bio and Rad
Provides more basic protection then security armour.

ANTAGONIST ARMOUR IS BUFFED TO MATCH OR EXCEED NEW SEC BASIC ARMOUR VALUES WHEN POSSIBLE. However most antag armour already exceeds these values.

ALTERNATIVELY
Sec Armour remains as is, new proposed above Sec Armour issued only to the Head of Security and Warden as new protection values.

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Why these values?

These changes continue to make ranged combat lethal for all parties, but ranged combat won't be instant near death to those taking fire for both sides. For example now the Revolver will crit officers in only three shots, and most ballistic weapons will only deal 35% less damage overall to security.

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Weapon/Antag Item Changes

Energy Sword buffed to have 25% armour penetration

Duel Energy Sword buffed to have 50% armour penetration

New Armour Piercing rounds can be bought by Traitors, Gangsters and Nuke Ops. They have between 30 to 40 armour penetration (depending on the gun). They deal less damage per bullet but ignore most bullet defence.

Antags (traitor) can purchase several armour items. A Chameleon Armour suit that acts as Cham jumpsuit but with basic armour (2tc), a Advance Chameleon armour suit that provides buffed protection but also no slipping (3tc) and a syndicate armour vest that offers identical protection to a security vest but is cheap and not very noticable (1tc).

Fragnostic · Post by **Fragnostic** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:42 am #120661

I sort of like the old options for vests.
If a wizard spawns guns or its Nuke Ops, or some a tator is putting in work with an FK-69 and several mags, you want to be able to adapt to the situation. Strip your basic duty/service armor and strap on that ballistic armor vest and go about your day. If science is getting laser pistols/cannons or Cargo is busting egun crates, throw on an ablative and go check it out. I don't play sec, but riot armor needs to be less shitty. It's kinda sad to see its underused when most of the things that happen on station really do warrant riot gear, even on extended. Granted, HoS shouldn't be a pushover, but killing them should be a good reward/incentive to have better armor.

Our captains should be absolutely feared. As of now, they almost seem like the HoS's assistant. Probably a player behavior issue, but armor values and gear and influence definitely come into play.

You shouldn't be prepared for any attack, just have the things you need to adapt to the situation. 30 for every stat sounds good as basic armor imo.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:50 am #120664

The EDO suit is just a minor point of the suggestion.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

So this is "I want antags to spend more of their precious TC getting through the new bullet-resistant jackets which are standard kit?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:56 pm #120673

If you think the presented values are too high its easily lowered.

Here's some examples of how much damage ballistics will deal against my propsoed sec armour

M90 Deals 23 Damage, taking it from 3 shot crit to a 5 shot crit

Sketchin, auto rifle, C20r and other similar weapons Deals 13 damage, going from a 5 shot crit to a 8 shot crit.

Generally these armour values add two to three extra bullets needed to kill someone. Unless you use the cheap AP ammo which cuts those bullets needed down.

Don't act like I'm buffing armour so it takes 30 bullets to kill someone that only needed 5 bullets before.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:57 pm #120674

No, this pushes everything back to stun combat even more.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:00 pm #120675

I was looking to make Tasers take two shot to stun, but that's a bit farther way for me to do.

Cptant, irrespective of if armour remains as it is (where its paperthin that provides no real protection) or is buffed as I proposed Stuns will remain the centrepiece of combat.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:01 pm #120676

I mean, am I the only one annoyed that most station armour provides no real protection, at least concerning the base armour.

At best it means you can tank one extra hit before you go into crit from any real weapon or even just some tool box..

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:29 pm #120686

Steelpoint wrote:I was looking to make Tasers take two shot to stun, but that's a bit farther way for me to do.

Cptant, irrespective of if armour remains as it is (where its paperthin that provides no real protection) or is buffed as I proposed Stuns will remain the centrepiece of combat.

They will, but buffing armor will make the alternative to stuns even less attractive.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:47 pm #120688

The problem right now is that even HoS, Capn and basic Sec armour is really ineffective.

I don't see how slightly buffing their armour, and introducing antag ways to defeat armour, is a negative thing.

Stun combat will always be the be all and end all, until someone can address it who is more competent in coding than me.

AdenAbrafo · Post by **AdenAbrafo** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:29 pm #120691

Steelpoint wrote:The problem right now is that even HoS, Capn and basic Sec armour is really ineffective.

whoa whoa whoa
hold up

Was that not the entire point of nerfing armor? To make them more susceptible to melee attacks because even a regular security officer used to be a tank?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:36 pm #120692

Except now their armour is near worthless for defence, again I point to the armour only allowing you to survive one or two extra hits in melee.

Let's assuming your attacking a Officer with a toolbox, dealing 10 brute damage each hit.

If your not wearing armour, it takes ten (10) melee hits to crit you.
If your wearing current (20 def) armour, it takes thirteen (13) melee hits to crit you. If you suffer 4 damage from any other source that's twelve (12) hits.
If your wearing my proposed armour (40 def), it takes seventeen (17) melee hits to crit you, if you suffer 2 damage from any other source that's sixteen (16) hits.

This is just against shitty makeshift items, let alone actual weapons.

Military and syndicate grade weapons will still kill Officers reasonably, but it won't be a pathetic two extra hits to kill/crit.

AdenAbrafo · Post by **AdenAbrafo** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:40 pm #120694

So you're proposing that standard, basic, every day armor for security should increase protection by more than 50%?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:44 pm #120696

From 20% to 40% melee only.

It's still a lower value than the older 50% value.

This is a nicer middle ground, around 30 to 40 percent for basic defence.

Right now, as I said, there's little if any reason to wear armour aside from holding your taser.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:57 pm #120700

Ablative, sure.

Captain's armor, probably ought to be a bit more robust.

Across the board: they need lower bullet resistance because the whole point in them HAVING low bullet resistance is so that syndies could dunk security with expensive ballistics, rather than just opting for a taser. Revolver is *just* better than a taser, because you can 2 shot delaycrit anyone or 3 shot crit any person, now it'd be 3 shot delaycrit for officers and 4 shot crit. This is a huge nerf considering in that time they can EASILY get two taser shots off, in which case why ever use a revolver? It's a pretty severe nerf when syndies are really reliant on their limited ammo going the full mile. Keep in mind revolvers cost almost all of a traitor's TC, come with 6 bullets, no extra ammo, and take 2-3 shots to down anyone as-is. Nerfing that is stupid, you'd just force antags, syndicates especially to dump revolvers and grab a taser for a one-shot-down instead, then, like before, you'd have to tug them through maintenance whacking them through their 50% damage resistance (10% jump + 40% armor) with a baton (10/hit if memory serves, meaning it'd take 20 batons to crit a single officer), killing them five hours later, only to be resurrected by the magical defib man 2 minutes later.

EOD armor is ridiculously OP in every way. Sec really doesn't need a buff to the point of borderline immunity to all damage for 2 members of sec.

Only buffing antagonist armor to match or exceed the new values only if they're now lower than the new values means that you're nerfing the viability of antag armor - the cost being throwing a giant 'valid' sign on yourself in exchange for less benefit than before, compared to normal sec gear.

Also, lethal fire definitely does not need a nerf. Everyone still beelines for disablers/tasers anyway, and I thought we were trying to move away from stun-centric combat by buffing lethals?

--- It's just another buff to security. The new syndicate armor stuff is basically useless, sans the chameleon armor suit that really should have been that way from the start is almost irrelevant in the face of making sec even more resistant to the tools that crew can viably acquire from them, especially since syndies aren't the only antags. Armor penetration or not, eswords are still useless because they're uber expensive, are vulnerable to a fucking baton or disarms, and don't even require most sec officers to close on you in melee any more because of your retarded autorifles. You're literally, as most others have said, making antags have to go through another layer of bullshit with their TC to kill anyone on the 8-strong sec force.

Antags would have to go through so much more bullshit to down an officer. As you said, 5-8 sketchkin bullets. An entire fucking mag to the face and they *barely* will go to crit. Whereas sec can just nail any antag with an autorifle in the face with 5/20 bullets with one of their four !FREE! autorifles. How is this balanced?

Stop making security-oriented PRs, Steelpoint. Your bias is showing. People SHOULD be fragile. That is the way this game WAS, and the way it should be. You shouldn't be able to tank 8 fucking sketchkin shots before going down, that's just utterly absurd. Values are fine as-is.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:06 pm #120701

Firstly this is a feedback and discussion thread, not a PR.

Secondly Revolvers deals 60 damage per bullet and already has, I think, about 10 AP to it's bullets.

To crit a sec officer wearing basic armour with my proposed values you'll need three shot, two if you can land at least one shot on a limb. Since the bullets will deal 45 damage if you hit their armour. Same goes for the Captain, three shots to crit.

For syndi gun's here's the proper review.

C20r: 8 shots to crit, three or so shots to stun.
M90: 5 shots to crit, two burst fires essentially to crit.
Pistol: 6 shots to crit.

Again, armour differences mean it takes two to three extra bullets to down average sec officers.

If one bullet hits them in a limb then its even less bullets.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:20 pm #120703

Steelpoint wrote:Firstly this is a feedback and discussion thread, not a PR.

Secondly Revolvers deals 60 damage per bullet and already has, I think, about 10 AP to it's bullets.

To crit a sec officer wearing basic armour with my proposed values you'll need three shot, two if you can land at least one shot on a limb. Since the bullets will deal 45 damage if you hit their armour. Same goes for the Captain, three shots to crit.

For syndi gun's here's the proper review.

C20r: 8 shots to crit, three or so shots to stun.
M90: 5 shots to crit, two burst fires essentially to crit.
Pistol: 6 shots to crit.

Again, armour differences mean it takes two to three extra bullets to down average sec officers.

If one bullet hits them in a limb then its even less bullets.

So it is ANOTHER sec buff.

Just fucking no. They're fine as-is, you can actually kill officers now after they're flat on their face, and lethals SHOULD be viable in combat otherwise we're back to spamming stuns as we were before.

What is your motivation here? To make security more tanky and to buff them slowly to the point of insanity? They have powerful ballistics. They have a trillion TAC vests to hardcounter syndies. They have decent armor that doesn't make them immune to attacks. They have solidarity and the metaknowledge that none of them are antags at roundstart. They have space suits. They have energy-based stuns and lethals everywhere. They have ear and eye protection, gathering both viably being difficult for any non-antag. They have spammable flashes/flashbangs that hardcounter anyone without both eye and ear protection.

Now we want to also make them have 50% resistance to all attacks (after the sec jump), because apparently, security shouldn't be able to die even vaguely easily? You shouldn't be able to kill two downed officers with a single baton? You shouldn't be able to kill a single officer without whacking at them for a full minute like things were before? Or what?

Just no. Stop. Trying. To. Buff. Security. They're already hilariously powerful, the only restriction not being in gear, but the fact that alot of the people that play sec are retarded. By giving them tanky gear, you're just coddling poor players, as the problem in dying was never to lethals, but rather, to people after they're already stunned. Even after you kill someone, chances are they'll either get defibbed minutes later, speedcloned, or cloned with a fully upgraded cloner as soon as the body is discovered, and with space being as it is, chances are, you won't be able to even dispose of a corpse even pseudo-permanently by spacing it.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:24 pm #120705

I think sec being able to tank one extra revolver bullet than the average crewman ( only if you aim for the torso, mind you) is entirely reasonable

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:31 pm #120707

Wyzack wrote:I think sec being able to tank one extra revolver bullet than the average crewman ( only if you aim for the torso, mind you) is entirely reasonable

Sec already takes a single bullet extra kind of. It takes 2 bullets to *barely* crit a normal crewman. It takes 3 to crit an officer (2 won't get them low enough).

The point isn't necessarily just that, because the revolver has 10 AP or something so it's more of an outlier, but stuff like going from 5 stetchkin shots to chest -> 8 shots to the chest to crit. Is that fair having to use an entire mag+ to only crit a single officer? Not really.

Then there's other stuff like batonning going from 12~ hits to crit to 20~ with the proposed numbers (after taking into account sec jumpsuits). 20 fucking hits, that's utterly absurd. Why does this need a buff?

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:37 pm #120708

It has a hard counter of aim for the friggin limbs. As is armor does nothing but act as a holster and that is fucking dumb

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:38 pm #120709

Amelius please at least get your facts correct.

Two revolver hits is 120 health, which is not barely over the line. Same with my proposed armour values in that three bullets will deal 135 damage, which gives a excess of 35 damage. Two bullets deal 90 damage.

The pistol's will crit in 6 bullets, not 8.

Also I said above that lower damaging melee weapons would take barely 17 hits to crit, 16 if any other damage is applied before hand.

Historically melee was never a great way to kill a security officer, it's only a recent thing where melee deals almost the same damage to sec versus someone without any armour.

E: Also the armour would have 10 less melee defence to count for the 10 extra defence the jumpsuits provide, that's jut common sense.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:43 pm #120710

I point to the old sec armour values as proof that a slight buff to armour won't break the game, tripple so if we introduce AP rounds and AP swords.

Old sec armour had way better protection than what I proposed.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:52 pm #120711

Steelpoint wrote:Two revolver hits is 120 health, which is not barely over the line. Same with my proposed armour values in that three bullets will deal 135 damage, which gives a excess of 35 damage. Two bullets deal 90 damage.

I thought revolvers only had 10 AP? Don't vests have like, 20-30% ballistic resistance right now?

onleavedontatme · Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:44 pm

How is an extra, three, two, or even extra hit "pathetic" when security is armed with weapons that stop people in a single hit. I know that 2 is a small number, but in the context of how fast every else can go down, it's substantial.

How are people landing 13 hits of a toolbox on you when you have tasers, batons, flashbangs, pepperspray, flashes, etc?

Armor should give you an edge, but it shouldn't be the deciding factor in a fight.

Why do you want to buff armor, then promote a handful of hard counters to the armor (leaving the matchup functionally identical to what we have now, but shafting anything you dont add AP to)? What is so offensive about someone with a spear being able to gore an officer or op?

How does this make the game better?

EDIT: Recently as the HoS a cultist with the double barrel ambushed me in maint. He shot me twice before I could even react. Lucky for me, my armor made me immune to the firepower he could muster, and I tased him, swapped modes, and killed him within seconds. Felt cheap.

TheNightingale · Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:27 pm

Kor wrote:EDIT: Recently as the HoS a cultist with the double barrel ambushed me in maint. He shot me twice before I could even react. Lucky for me, my armor made me immune to the firepower he could muster, and I tased him, swapped modes, and killed him within seconds. Felt cheap.

I don't see this as a bad thing. To take on the most powerful Security force on-station, you have to be prepared to some extent more than 'have a gun'. He could've used a stun talisman, poisoned darts, pulse slugs or another cultist as backup, but he took on the HoS with just a double-barrel shotgun and, predictably, lost.
To take on a typical civilian, any old weapon will work. A double-barrel loaded with buckshot or slugs, maybe. A Security Officer or Detective requires more work (but the rewards are far greater - not only do you get Security gear to use or impersonate them with, but also the ID, flashbang protection, and one less enemy to deal with). The Warden, even more so - if they're not guarding the Armory (they should be), they'll at least have one lethal with them, so prepare accordingly.
And the HoS is the last word when it comes to station security - so naturally, it's going to be very difficult to take them down if you're unprepared.

Supermichael777 · Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:35 pm

Kor: I failed to be a peice of tissue paper as the worlds most robust man. PLZ NERF!

Rely the only things I agree with are the helmet for albative (TRON hat!) and buffing captains armor(50 across and 100 bomb resist would be a good start)

onleavedontatme · Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:37 pm

Should probably add that, ironically, he was in full armour as well, which was of course, meaningless.

Just as giving traitors or whoever random armor will be meaningless so long as the primary weapons of security bypass armor entirely.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:58 pm #120753

As far as armor goes am I the only one who kinda questions it's effectiveness on account of how hitting the limbs (which happens pretty damn frequently) completely ignores the protection of standard vests?

onleavedontatme · Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:05 pm

Shaps wrote:As far as armor goes am I the only one who kinda questions it's effectiveness on account of how hitting the limbs (which happens pretty damn frequently) completely ignores the protection of standard vests?

Should just make vests into jackets like the wardens then instead of trying to balance around RNG+limb damage caps.

Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:07 pm

armor works fine as it stands except for the occasional changeling armor which is way too strong
please no more armor reworks, it's fine the way it is

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:15 pm #120789

All these changes around sec balance recently smell of Steelpoint having some sort of mandate to rebalance security in his own eyes.

Just what his underlying reasons are, however, remains a mystery. All that I read about the proposed changes being "better" and addressing nebulous "balance" issues seem to exist in a public consensus that I have never seen. I remember before Steelpoint's rifle additions we had a big discussion about sec having lethal round start firearms: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... &start=250 One might assume that the autorifle changes were inspired by this discussion. Unfortunately for sec, they never got those weapons. The warden did, though, get a bigger armoury pinata to defend? The original problem was thus never addressed.

Which seems a common theme with all these sec changes. Theyre not addressing real issues, and the underlying issues ought to be clearly stated before pushing changes through. If we keep offering players more power and more toys, we will dilute the game into mediocrity.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:53 pm #120797

Amelius wrote:I thought revolvers only had 10 AP? Don't vests have like, 20-30% ballistic resistance right now?

Yes revolvers have 10 AP. Also vests currently only have 15 bullet resistance.

Also currently HoS armour only has 30 bullet defence.

@Kor Civilians running around with shitty spears and toolboxes should not be a threat to your average officer outside of a swarm of people or if they knock you to the floor en mass. Hence my proposed slight buffs to more military grade weapons.

Also if the cultists used beanbag rounds then of course you were fine, beanbag rounds are bugged and they don't really do anything to a armourd target even if its low bullet defence (again, 30 defence on HoS).

@invisty Its not hard to think I want to address security when I predominantly play as security.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:58 pm #120800

In fact here's the current armour values for the sake of transparency.

Armour vest/Helm: melee = 25, bullet = 15, laser = 25, energy = 10, bomb = 25, bio = 0, rad = 0 (includes Warden coat)

HoS Coat/Beret: melee = 30, bullet = 30, laser = 30, energy = 10, bomb = 25, bio = 0, rad = 0

Capn Carapace: melee = 50, bullet = 40, laser = 50, energy = 10, bomb = 25, bio = 0, rad = 0

TechnoAlchemist · Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:04 am

A spear should be a threat to an officer, it is a spear, why would a spear not be a threat to an officer that doesn't make sense.

A toolbox should be a threat to an officer as well, it's a heavy blunt object why wouldn't it be a threat to anyone.

The availability of stuns for the officer to prevent them from being hit in the first place is there for a reason,

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:08 am #120806

Then its clear I have a differing opinion to you on what should and should not be dangrous to a standard officer.

If you aim and hit a officer in their armour, meaning their chest and head, with a basic, non syndicate or military grade, weapon, I don't think it should be lethal in smaller dosages. Hence why I think around 16 hits with a basic and common tool to crit a officer is a good value for me, whereas other think only two extra hits is acceptable.

Don't forget you can aim for external limbs to deal additional damage per hit if your resorting to just rushing a officer with a tool box. But I would recommend you find a alternative way to down a officer if your lacking in weapons.

Hell just a few days ago I was killed by a long Rev who hid in a maint tunnel near sec and silently sprayed water near the maint entrance, I was too busy to not notice the wet tile and slipped and fell onto it, no armour in the world would have saved me then.

AdenAbrafo · Post by **AdenAbrafo** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:06 am #120814

If you aim and hit a officer in their armour, meaning their chest and head, with a basic, non syndicate or military grade, weapon, I don't think it should be lethal in smaller dosages. Hence why I think around 16 hits with a basic and common tool to crit a officer is a good value for me, whereas other think only two extra hits is acceptable.

You think 10 hits with a toolbox is too little when security officers start with items that blind/disorient, stun if the victim doesn't have eyewear/mask, stun in one hit, grenades that stun you if you can see them, a gun that stuns you in one hit? Once again, you're effectively proposing a more than 50% increase in protection. With no armor it takes 10, with your armor it would take more than half of that on top of it.
Regardless, yes that is what people are saying. 6 extra hits is too many, everyone seems to want it to stay at 2.

Don't forget you can aim for external limbs to deal additional damage per hit if your resorting to just rushing a officer with a tool box. But I would recommend you find a alternative way to down a officer if your lacking in weapons.

Hell just a few days ago I was killed by a long Rev who hid in a maint tunnel near sec and silently sprayed water near the maint entrance, I was too busy to not notice the wet tile and slipped and fell onto it, no armour in the world would have saved me then.

I don't know what point you're trying to make. Stuns are king in the game, everyone knows this. Even if you wore full riot gear you'd probably end up dead. I thought the general consensus was that people wanted to move away from stun combat?
I'm not sure what you mean by 'lacking in weapons' either because the toolbox is in the category of the second strongest weapons on station.

onleavedontatme · Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:36 am

Everything should be dangerous to everyone. That is (was?) the nature of the game. Paranoia, things going wrong, catastrophe and death. If you want balanced gunfights with military weapons and OPERATING there are literally thousands of better games to play.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:30 am #120833

Paranoia is a buzzword that only applies to new players at this point.

The game went along very well for, what, five or so years with the older armour values. What changed that we needed to lower them so far?

I may as well replace armour vests with a gun holster that offers no protection, because the protection you do get from armour is pathetic at best, removing armour for a gun holster would confer absolutely no difference to the game.

If your goal is to gut armour from the game then just do that, instead of making armour give a false sense of security to anyone who is not a antagonist who has very robust and superior armour.

whodaloo · Post by **whodaloo** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:54 am #120839

Walk your my way or the highway shit out an airlock. "You nerfed armor so you might as well remove it!" is a retarded argument.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:57 am #120841

I'm not wrong in that it serves a better purpose in holding your taser or energy gun than in protecting you.

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:00 am #120842

Steelpoint wrote:Paranoia is a buzzword that only applies to new players at this point.

Dismissive one-liners (which you've done multiple times already in this thread) are a fantastic way to make yourself very unpopular and to have your contributions rejected regardless of their merit. Other contributors with poor attitudes have tried this in the past and been shot down. It doesn't matter how right you think you are, if you adopt this stance you will be cut down by people you've pissed off.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:03 am #120843

Should I have to write a essay out every time I reply to someone?

If you want me to sure, but that will not accomplish much.

onleavedontatme · Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:08 am

I don't want an essay I'd just like some explanation behind your statements.

You say "X should be Y" but very rarely WHY you want X to be Y, or why it would be good for the game.

Why would the game be better this way?

>What changed that we needed to lower them so far?

We nerfed or removed tons of stuns and other instant kill weapons, so armor actually became a thing with substantial impact as more people were forced to use weapons that weren't one hit kills.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:17 am #120849

I've explained why I think most station based armour has a very minor impact on damage protection, where most armour on station can only resit a extra two or three melee hits, maybe one pistol bullet, before knocking the user into critical.

I feel that current armour has no real impact on surviving a attack or at least not taking as much damage, whenever I get shot at or stabbed at I don't feel like my armour is really benefiting me (well more so when I use normal armour, HoS armour is somewhat in line with my proposal). I want basic armour to feel like it provides a actual benefit in protection, around a 30% overall damage reduction instead of the current 10% to 30% ish protection on a good day.

If you want highly lethal game play that works you'll want to examine how Goonstation does combat, while this is a simplification their combat is highly lethal and a few shots from a laser or gun is sufficient to kill anyone and their ranged weapons are more effective (Laser Rifles recharges by itself, bullets ruin your day, AP bullets break your armour instantly).

The only way we can look at removing one hit stun based combat (which all attempts to address have failed thus far) is to essentially buff all ranged (and some melee) attacks to be highly lethal but offer armour a better level of protection, more for antagonists a bit less for station side.

In addition I think making Tasers a two shot stun (not disabling cause Disabling is broken and always has been) might help, as well as raise the skill cap for Taser users.

That or make the Taser a single shot weapon, bit like a real life Taser, but that's more off topic.

Again, if you want to move away from stuns you need to make lethal options more lethal! All you've done is make station based armour less powerful, you've not actually buffed weapons. This simply makes it quicker to kill security when you stun and lase them. If I have a choice between a Laser or a Taser, I should want to take the Laser but only take the Taser if I want to be non-lethal.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:10 am #120855

you'll want to examine how Goonstation does combat

stepping in real quick here

we cant have goon combat without goon spacemen

goon spacemen are robust motherfuckers health wise

their crit isn't hard knockout at 0 HP, it's a whole process

goon spacemens are BUFF AS FUCK

seriously go play a round on goon and get into a fight, and see how beefy you actually are

its insane

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:02 am #120894

@goofball Yeah that's why I said it was a simplification, there's a lot more to goon's combat than just the bullets and lasers.

Oh, just to mention.

I intend to put up a bulletproof vest PR irrespective of this thread's conclusion, mainly to normalise the helmet and vest values. The vest has 80 defence yet the helmet has 40, so I'll make them both have 60 bullet defence.

Also the values in the OP are not final values, and the EOD suit was just me testing the water with it, it won't be included.

I still like the idea of a laserproof helmet.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:54 pm #120940

Steelpoint, I'm of the opinion that in this game 'almost everything should be a viable weapon'. By viable I do not necessarily mean OP, but I mean that anyone can be killed by basically anything, and thus, it would be important for people to be cautious, paranoid even, of people's intentions for even seemingly harmless acts, even if you're in security or the Captain. Basically, equipment should not carry the player, rather, it should act as an advantage for them so long as they are deployed well. This is another reason why I dislike disablers, because you can never outrun/dodge all the disabler shots in an egun or taser, meaning you can no longer juke an officer.

You however, want security to have absolute control and only be threatened by mass-mobs of melee weapons or gear on the same level as what they have, i.e. lethal syndie gear (to that end, I presuppose that stunprod nerfs would be in the works for you). I fiercely disagree with this view, because this sort of experience is not the reason why I started playing SS13, and if this were the case, I would have bored of this game years ago.

EDIT: You also keep forgetting that all of sec have jumpsuits with 10 protection to most everything, so your listed values are lower than they actually are.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:06 pm #120941

That's what I find weird Amelius, we have had very powerful armour values for years, likely from when you started playing and got hooked onto this game, yet the issue of armour being 'too powerful' only really started to appear around the time Kor put up the armour nerf PR.

Am I missing something here? Has there always been a demand to lower armour values but no one ever put it up until Kor did? Security still died en mass under the older and more powerful armour value's.

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Ok let me change tactics.

Outside of Rev rounds most if not all antagonists use unique weapons of varying degree's of power.

My armour proposals buff armour to be effective enough in resisting basic items like tool boxes and the like. However more lethal weapons, syndicate or wizard or whatever, remain highly lethal even on security.

Again, SS13 as a game worked very well for years with the older high value armour, my proposal of buffing the armour to a slightly higher, but not even close to the higher armour values of old, won't break anything. It will in fact give armour a proper benefit to wear instead of being more a appearance thing.

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Right now most armour, station side anyway, is really not doing its job. It is ineffective, offers no real protection, and only serves to hold your sidearm.

If we're fine with armour not even offering a modicum of protection to basic tools, not military grade weapons but basic tools, then sure.

But honestly I feel these nerfs to armour were brought along when we finally realised that all these traitors nerfs caught up to us and we found out antags, mainly traitors and lings (the most common antags) were really struggling with killing people let alone security.

I feel we have gotten to a point where we have been buffing antags in a positive way that gives them more effective tools to deal with security, and I don't think the armour nerfs need to remain as they are.

I'm not proposing a buff to the pre-nerf levels, I'm proposing a slight buff to allow officers to tank more low grade attacks.

As I have demonstrated, the buffs provide good protection to minor attacks, but very little to military level attacks from bullets or swords or whatever.

EDIT TO EDIT

JUMPSUITS OFFER ONLY TEN (10) TEN (10) MELEE PROTECTION! I SAID I WOULD ACCOUNT FOR THAT IN ANY CHANGES!

onleavedontatme · Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:00 pm

Steelpoint wrote:Again, SS13 as a game worked very well for years with the older high value armour

You keep ignoring that literally everything bypassed armour for those years though. You could also strip it instantly. It basically didn't exist until recently.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:02 pm #120947

Again am I missing something?

If your talking about the transition from RNG to static defence its been proven countless times, statisticly, that there is NO difference between the two systems in how much damage you blocked. On average you blocked the exact same amount of damage for both systems.

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