Changeling progression

[XDTM]

Changelings have an evolution theme; what if their powers became more powerful by absorbing (not just stinging) people?
Currently all their powers are available roundstart, except spiders, which is also achievable through DNA stings. There's not much incentive in actually absorbing people, since all it gives you is a "refund skills" point and makes the target sort of unclonable.
My idea was to unlock abilities/upgrade existing ones based on the number of absorbtions, giving lings a strong incentive to take time to absorb victims, which in turn makes them vulnerable to being discovered. Or they could roll with total stealth, without taking extra risks and only DNA stinging, but missing out on the more powerful abilities.

[CPTANT]

Yeah I have brought this up before

The only way Ling is ever going to work is as a progression based side antag.

Ling should get DNA points for absorbing and unlocking new abilities to choose from, they should start weak and should have the potential to become significantly stronger than they are now.

[Wyzack]

Didn't ling used to work similar to this? I think it got removed because people get way too assblasted any time they get removed from a round

[ShadowDimentio]

In the holy days of parasting Ling only had a few powers and had to get more by eating people. Nowadays lings get all the good shit and then some at start and get even more absurd the more they slaughter.

[PKPenguin321]

progression ling is a thing of oldling and was bad for some reason i don't remember why

[Yoshmaster]

Lings used to have that mechanic, but it was troublesome for a couple reasons. The worst thing about it was that it gave lings a HUGE incentive to kill more than a handful of people. Getting killed sucks enough in concept, but losing an entire department without anyone noticing - or any salvageable shred of evidence - is rage inducing. Also, it seemed very difficult to balance. When lings were too weak, they just relied on hiding until they could absorb enough to be more confident. When lings were too strong, they were an unstoppable force that only got stronger with time.
Making lings more interesting is probably a good idea, but the absorption mechanic would have to be changed first, I reckon. Maybe if when absorbing people, victims were spawned as some form of small parasitic lifeform? Or maybe victims could arise some time later as zombies.

[Incomptinence]

Back when we had this it wasn't the main problem. The absorb objectives were originally cranked bombastically high to the point if changelings won as a team they would hold up the end of the round trying to absorb up to 14 people each. Also the super traitors problem of having to do all this then go steal an objective or make sure a very specific person is dead would mean even if they focused on absorbing enough to hit the quota half would fail because someone knicked their steal objective earlier for grey tide and they would hold up the shuttle again to try and rectify this. Also once they had their glands upgrades and parasting and the few useful powers they basically peaked out so say a cmo who absorbed 27 people including humaned monkeys would get rolled by sec once outed in the slightest. Basically instead of a round ending threat under the then powerset they remained sting man assassin.

I wouldn't say make it a conversion round but maybe more stuff like spiders with simple mobs (but make it actually flesh thematic), using absorbs and dna to make ling unique diseases and maybe leaving messed up organic terrain around as traps or other benefits to the ling could help? Ling has never been very good at biological horror but current lings are about as gross as optimus prime.

Other than fleshmend and other healing powers the alt traitor thing has gotten worse to the point they might as well not exist. Giving lings traitor objectives was always sloppy design, they were never good at stealing shit, it has forced us to make them more like traitors to do the traitor's objectives and that was years ago coders could do much better now.

[Davidchan]

Aside from the stings being a bit OP (they could be used while bucklecuffed or stunned) oldling wasn't terrible as people say it was, and I was one of the people who actually hated the role. I wouldn't mind seeing evolution lings come back with them starting with basic powers and having to evolve to higher level ones, either through earning skill points to spend in their tator menu or giving them a random power based upon how many people they've gotten thus far.

Biggest problem I remember was that lings could become nigh unkillable in the old days if just bombed the crematorium and incinerators, and many of their powers were hard counters for the things that were supposed to counter them. That and change sting was pure cancer when people realized you could spam genetics defects into people or make everyone into a meme character.

[CPTANT]

Lings used to have that mechanic, but it was troublesome for a couple reasons. The worst thing about it was that it gave lings a HUGE incentive to kill more than a handful of people. Getting killed sucks enough in concept, but losing an entire department without anyone noticing - or any salvageable shred of evidence - is rage inducing. Also, it seemed very difficult to balance. When lings were too weak, they just relied on hiding until they could absorb enough to be more confident. When lings were too strong, they were an unstoppable force that only got stronger with time.
Making lings more interesting is probably a good idea, but the absorption mechanic would have to be changed first, I reckon. Maybe if when absorbing people, victims were spawned as some form of small parasitic lifeform? Or maybe victims could arise some time later as zombies.

The problem was that ling was a gamemode of its own meaning you had 6 of them running around absorbing people. This is why ling would be great as a side antag, the amount of people absorbed is limited while we get an interesting progression based antag(of which we basically have none)

[XDTM]

Lings used to have that mechanic, but it was troublesome for a couple reasons. The worst thing about it was that it gave lings a HUGE incentive to kill more than a handful of people. Getting killed sucks enough in concept, but losing an entire department without anyone noticing - or any salvageable shred of evidence - is rage inducing. Also, it seemed very difficult to balance. When lings were too weak, they just relied on hiding until they could absorb enough to be more confident. When lings were too strong, they were an unstoppable force that only got stronger with time.
Making lings more interesting is probably a good idea, but the absorption mechanic would have to be changed first, I reckon. Maybe if when absorbing people, victims were spawned as some form of small parasitic lifeform? Or maybe victims could arise some time later as zombies.

What if they were half-converted, I.E. cannot harm or block the ling from doing what it wants, but does not have to obey its orders? Then, maybe, there could be a higher tier power that would allow you to command one or two of your victims and connect them to hive chat (no more than that or it'll be conversion antag #50).
Passive obedience would make it so lings don't need to actually remove people from the round, plus i think it'd be a bit closer to what the Thing did in the movie, since it infected human cells more than eating them.
Plus i like the idea of a semi-brainwashed department who just looks blankly while a security guard is dragged screaming through the hallway by a ling.

[CPTANT]

Lings used to have that mechanic, but it was troublesome for a couple reasons. The worst thing about it was that it gave lings a HUGE incentive to kill more than a handful of people. Getting killed sucks enough in concept, but losing an entire department without anyone noticing - or any salvageable shred of evidence - is rage inducing. Also, it seemed very difficult to balance. When lings were too weak, they just relied on hiding until they could absorb enough to be more confident. When lings were too strong, they were an unstoppable force that only got stronger with time.
Making lings more interesting is probably a good idea, but the absorption mechanic would have to be changed first, I reckon. Maybe if when absorbing people, victims were spawned as some form of small parasitic lifeform? Or maybe victims could arise some time later as zombies.

What if they were half-converted, I.E. cannot harm or block the ling from doing what it wants, but does not have to obey its orders? Then, maybe, there could be a higher tier power that would allow you to command one or two of your victims and connect them to hive chat (no more than that or it'll be conversion antag #50).
Passive obedience would make it so lings don't need to actually remove people from the round, plus i think it'd be a bit closer to what the Thing did in the movie, since it infected human cells more than eating them.
Plus i like the idea of a semi-brainwashed department who just looks blankly while a security guard is dragged screaming through the hallway by a ling.

There is nothing wrong with ling removing people from the round.

[Reece]

^

[Slettal]

Lings used to have that mechanic, but it was troublesome for a couple reasons. The worst thing about it was that it gave lings a HUGE incentive to kill more than a handful of people. Getting killed sucks enough in concept, but losing an entire department without anyone noticing - or any salvageable shred of evidence - is rage inducing. Also, it seemed very difficult to balance. When lings were too weak, they just relied on hiding until they could absorb enough to be more confident. When lings were too strong, they were an unstoppable force that only got stronger with time.
Making lings more interesting is probably a good idea, but the absorption mechanic would have to be changed first, I reckon. Maybe if when absorbing people, victims were spawned as some form of small parasitic lifeform? Or maybe victims could arise some time later as zombies.

What if they were half-converted, I.E. cannot harm or block the ling from doing what it wants, but does not have to obey its orders? Then, maybe, there could be a higher tier power that would allow you to command one or two of your victims and connect them to hive chat (no more than that or it'll be conversion antag #50).
Passive obedience would make it so lings don't need to actually remove people from the round, plus i think it'd be a bit closer to what the Thing did in the movie, since it infected human cells more than eating them.
Plus i like the idea of a semi-brainwashed department who just looks blankly while a security guard is dragged screaming through the hallway by a ling.

There is nothing wrong with ling removing people from the round.

Go back to COD for your murderboner

[CPTANT]

Lings used to have that mechanic, but it was troublesome for a couple reasons. The worst thing about it was that it gave lings a HUGE incentive to kill more than a handful of people. Getting killed sucks enough in concept, but losing an entire department without anyone noticing - or any salvageable shred of evidence - is rage inducing. Also, it seemed very difficult to balance. When lings were too weak, they just relied on hiding until they could absorb enough to be more confident. When lings were too strong, they were an unstoppable force that only got stronger with time.
Making lings more interesting is probably a good idea, but the absorption mechanic would have to be changed first, I reckon. Maybe if when absorbing people, victims were spawned as some form of small parasitic lifeform? Or maybe victims could arise some time later as zombies.

What if they were half-converted, I.E. cannot harm or block the ling from doing what it wants, but does not have to obey its orders? Then, maybe, there could be a higher tier power that would allow you to command one or two of your victims and connect them to hive chat (no more than that or it'll be conversion antag #50).
Passive obedience would make it so lings don't need to actually remove people from the round, plus i think it'd be a bit closer to what the Thing did in the movie, since it infected human cells more than eating them.
Plus i like the idea of a semi-brainwashed department who just looks blankly while a security guard is dragged screaming through the hallway by a ling.

There is nothing wrong with ling removing people from the round.

Go back to COD for your murderboner

Want a hug?

[Cobby]

There is nothing wrong with any-and-all antags removing people from the round.

[XDTM]

So, since that's not an issue, should i start coding this?

[Screemonster]

The idea of a semi-conversion that is just "do not impede the person you're slaved to under any circumstances, otherwise continue as normal" is pretty neat, but it'd be difficult to catch them doing the usual shitter stuff like ratting to security.

[CPTANT]

The idea of a semi-conversion that is just "do not impede the person you're slaved to under any circumstances, otherwise continue as normal" is pretty neat, but it'd be difficult to catch them doing the usual shitter stuff like ratting to security.

Ohw please not more conversion.

We have 4 conversion modes, we have 0 progression based antags (unless you count clock).

[Incomptinence]

As I said the problem wasn't the removal incentive, people like killing anyway it's pretty normal and not turning them into hulking death machines like some coders spun it.

It was the original objectives requiring sometimes more kills than there were people on the station, yeah they could also kill monkey humans but for people who didn't start with monkeys that basically involved making the station safe enough for them to go over and chow down anyway. The idea was they would eat each other to meet the quota. The result was they felt need to band together and totally dominate the station to meet the quota: total heads control, total ai control, security subversion or elimination the works.

If you have an absorb objective it takes up a lot of time sneakily doing it going through the prolonged process of eating dudes in quiet spots, so the traitor objectives also make shit worse because objectives get taken by non antags while you are doing the ling unique stuff. This also results in a lock down by the fleshmending fist to try and hunt down specific individuals* and items.

Keep it simple, ling objectives should be stuff they are good at doing it's the point of the antag's toolkit to help otherwise shit slows down. Lings shouldn't target each other because they plumb wont find each other, even if they do know one of their targets is a ling it would boil down to process of elimination once they go to ground also known as: killing everyone.

* who might be other changelings and can change their identity whenever making the other ling catching them unlikely but the hunter doesn't know and so prolongs the round looking. Like the only resolution I saw was target lings offering themselves as sacrifices out of pitty for the poor bastard at round end, PITY.

[Dagdammit]

I recently had a round where a not-especially robust changeling was after me, except that they took full advantage of the disguise option. Every time they came after me, it was as someone else. Holy SHIT was that an eye opener, completely made me appreciate how changelings are more than just traitors with bio powers.

So: What if changeling progression hinged on wearing a bunch of different faces? You generate progression points for the first 5 minutes you spend in any form that was obtained via absorption or the dna extraction sting.

Could also be interesting if changelings could choose a "metabolism" with different perks and restrictions. One metabolism needs to absorb blood, another gets more power from absorption but has to be in horror form & post-absorption is stuck in that person's form for 5 minutes...

[MrEousTranger]

Wait does anything happen when you heat blood from a ling?

[Dagdammit]

Wait does anything happen when you heat blood from a ling?

Oh man, applying that aspect of The Thing's premise to Lings would be nuts. Imagine severed ling limbs reanimating to flee extreme cold or heat. Severed ling heads beg incoherently for help/mercy. Both will attempt to slowly absorb nearby fresh corpses if left undisturbed. Player lings lose chemicals when limbs are lost & can reabsorb orphaned ling pieces to gain the same amount back.

[Screemonster]

Holy shit, limbs creeping their way over to a dead body in the room and slowly absorbing it would be creepy as fuck. Dump a ghost in the new ling and give it the corpse's DNA.

[Armhulen]

can we rework ling that way? please?

or atleast add that? it's fucking cool

[Steelpoint]

"Progression based antags" was always a sour word on coderbus for a long time, though I never figured out fully why. I'm sure if you looked through Cheridan's post history long enough you'll find his reasoning for it.

[CPTANT]

can we rework ling that way? please?

or atleast add that? it's fucking cool

yay! more conversion.

[CPTANT]

"Progression based antags" was always a sour word on coderbus for a long time, though I never figured out fully why. I'm sure if you looked through Cheridan's post history long enough you'll find his reasoning for it.

Well he never said anything on the forum with the word "progression" relating to antags.....

But who cares anyway, we couldn't implement side-antags for a long time so everything is different anyway.

I still think side antag progression ling the best way to implement them.

And if they are side-antags their limited numbers will assure that no round is completely depended or dominated by their success.

[Armhulen]

can we rework ling that way? please?

or atleast add that? it's fucking cool

yay! more conversion.

oh shit i didn't read the offer to ghosts part

i was thinking more like flesh monster snpcs

[Dagdammit]

Kinda makes me think of http://steven-universe.wikia.com/wiki/Cluster_Gems

[Ezel]

Progression ling is bad because it was just para sting with mute sting and when you was caught death sting progression based lings would be great you just need the just set of powers to make it good

[Dagdammit]

Seriously though, what if key to unlocking ling abilities (either literally unlocking them, earning more evolution points or generating chemicals to USE the abilities) was donning new forms. You stop getting the benefit once you've been that person for a total of 5+ minutes, so you've gotta keep switching to new faces every so often.

It incentivizes serial impersonation, like how Burnout incentivizes near misses; take more risks to power up. Extract DNA Sting becomes more of an inherent tradeoff- there's no need to attack Dave Brown and cover up the crime, but what if he says something on the radio while you're wearing his face in the medbay?

[XDTM]

Transforming is already useful enough to not need an incentive to use, really. The only issue with it is that you've got to strip yourself naked to get the most out of it (flesh clothes), but when you do you can just do any noticeable crime and then, well, be someone else when sec gets there.