Order 66: the Conspiracy goes to the Tip-Top!

[Super Aggro Crag]

Does this mean the heads of staff get eswords and telekinesis

[Armhulen]

Echakut ordah shikh dee shikh

[Shaps-cloud]

so rev from the other side

Actually I don't really know how the captain and all of security are supposed to be defeated by the rest of the crew since they have all the guns and most of the access on station minus the bartender's shotgun, plus they don't have to worry about rules of engagement like they would during rev

[Slignerd]

I can't wait for the salt following someone assuming Captain counts as Head of Staff.

[Screemonster]

I can't wait for the captain to beat the shit out of a shitty head on a normal traitor round and the validhunters immediately scream "IT'S ORDER 66 GUYS" and swarm him

[Cobby]

I can't wait for the captain to beat the shit out of a shitty head on a normal traitor round and the validhunters immediately scream "IT'S ORDER 66 GUYS" and swarm him

Working as intended.

[kevinz000]

so rev from the other side

Actually I don't really know how the captain and all of security are supposed to be defeated by the rest of the crew since they have all the guns and most of the access on station minus the bartender's shotgun, plus they don't have to worry about rules of engagement like they would during rev

But neither does the crew and everyone not implanted is automatically part of it, it'll make it easier when it's revealed as everyone will swarm instead of being worried about converting people.

[Armhulen]

I can't wait for the captain to beat the shit out of a shitty head on a normal traitor round and the validhunters immediately scream "IT'S ORDER 66 GUYS" and swarm him

I laughed so hard at this callout

[cedarbridge]

Seems like the sort of thing that would need an announcement, like blob. Some IC justification like the imposition of martial law on the station, anyone seen outside of their departments will be shot. Otherwise this will just feed into our current policy black hole of assistants interfering with sec arrests, getting shot and mashing dat ahelp button. Only now they'd be given an OOC justification for doing it because "It might be 66!" or just lead to every shitler getting arrested and immediately screaming about the captain being rogue. I already hate how much roundtypes are used to OOC in IC a ton of things in game, this would just exacerbate the problem in all sorts of awful ways.

[Armhulen]

I think meta with call outs won't be any worse than it is now with this game mode, it's just a problem with every game mode. Above that, it gives the upside of adding tator sec without the problems of solo traitor sec, like arresting dudes into mainly or shitcurity, etc.

[cedarbridge]

Other considerations:

1) Will this require enhanced gearchecks for departments and jobs that probably shouldn't be doing them? Do I have to stock up on choke grenades and death syringes every round as chemist now on the off chance that sec and command are rogue? Do I need to rush sepia slimes and maxcaps every round as science in case I have to maxcap the captain on the bridge? Do I need to leave the kitchen to make a stun prod as the chef instead of making tasty treats because sec might kick my door in? Most departments have access to certain weapons, but only certain weapons counter sec roundstart gear. If you expect the mode to work the departments are going to have to be able to compete and that means everyone powergaming up a bag of weapons to fight back with or getting rolled by sec's loadout. This was part of the original problem with traitorsec. They already start with the most effective combat gear in the game for free.

2) If I see a grey pull another grey from sec, what am I as a third party to glean from this? Is the second grey a shitter saving his shitter friend? Is the officer rogue and the second grey is a hero saving his buddy from certain death? Is the captain rogue and its time to dunk the cap?

[Armhulen]

People already make those weapons against normal traitors. Tators can still buy ebow esword and wreck nerds.

2 is IC ISSUE REEEEE

[Reece]

"The time has come! We shall re-order this station into the first branch of the new galactic empire!"

[kevinz000]

if no one else starts work on this in half a week to a week i'll be starting but it'll be slow and if you want any graphics it has to be from someone else because my codersprites suck shit and i'd have sm cascades done if not for that ree

[bman]

if no one else starts work on this in half a week to a week i'll be starting but it'll be slow and if you want any graphics it has to be from someone else because my codersprites suck shit and i'd have sm cascades done if not for that ree

if it's a gamemode lzi will yell at you cause he's making datum gamemodes or something

[cedarbridge]

>gearchecks/departments may be ill equipped
Someone will probably ";help comdom rouge!" early enough for you to make your time consuming weapons. Specifically preparing for the round is... unhealthy? I mean when I used to prepare, I only hit the mark every 1/20 rounds and then half of those I died immediately in when I got to the fight. You might as well say "What if nukeops + no sec + stealthops?" "What if wiz?" "What if target of tator?" "What if rev + I'm head?"

If a department lacks any natural weapons (most departments have something that works well, sometimes if they're not the only combatant, sometimes only if there's been enough time to make them), then they can do a rev and just group up, leech off of other departments or make prods+spears. The crew still have a numbers advantage and the Captain being a victory/lose condition upon death, the Captain will likely be the one running away, making stragglers, slowpokes and the wounded easy pickings (nuke ops suffers from this same danger, well, that and splitting up with an overall lack of teamwork, so don't expect the redshirt hoarding e-guns in his backpack to be saved by the Cap when they wander off).

If a department's normal role is invalidated by the game mode... oh well? I still serve food as the cook during blob if not for the juxtaposition of being a catering service amidst the chaos and death then instead to give passive healing (however insignificant) + keeping players from having slowdown, that and I get in the way usually as a cook. I somehow don't see why this is different to any other mode besides traitor/DA/IA. And if a role is fun enough that it's more fun to you to play that instead of the current round type... more power to you? That either means the round is pretty bad or someone succeeded at making a fun role!

You miss my point. Though you've already said that you view the game as a TDM just with randomized teams in each round. I dislike the concept of starting your round by making a dozen weapons of various types "just in case" and its what I mean by mandatory gearchecks. The chef should not be obligated to start his round in tool storage making a stun prod "just in case its <antag type> this rou-shift!" or all of medbay shouldn't start making prods/lexorin/IEDs anticipating an antagonist that has never materialized. People should be encouraged to do their department functions rather than obliged to instantly start the arms race from the words "welcome to the station" on. I fully understand that people already do it, I just stand by the concept as bad. To give you an idea where I'm coming from, see it this way. Would SS13 be fun if we removed all jobs and just had half the station spawn in red jumpsuits and the other half spawn in blue jumpsuits and then had them run around swinging toolboxes? Would that make a good use of the setting? Would that encourage interesting thing to happen? Would the experience itself be fun or interesting? That's the problem. Instead we hide it behind a clumsy "werewolf" style facade where players eat a toolbox because they didn't win the privileged roll and then hit the ahelp button to find out from the admins if the guy who hit them did win the privileged roll. I mean, I'm certainly not advocating that everyone sit around and emote breathing or write dissertations into the chatbox but I've yet to hear what is interesting about the other end of the spectrum where everyone silently beats the other to death (or usually beats the other to death and shouts memes for the rest of the round.) If you want a combat simulator without a story there are much better ones you could play.

>shitters
IC issue/ask them what's going on/dunk the Cap and get bant or get lucky/force out an overreaction and sit in deadchat ahelping.

>mode requires playing ban roulette

[Nilons]

so rev from the other side

Actually I don't really know how the captain and all of security are supposed to be defeated by the rest of the crew since they have all the guns and most of the access on station minus the bartender's shotgun, plus they don't have to worry about rules of engagement like they would during rev

think of it like literal reverse rev, as soon as people think its order 66 theyre going to go full greytide, if the crew had no chance of beating sec and the captain rev also wouldnt work

[ohnopigeons]

plus (Security) don't have to worry about rules of engagement like they would during rev

They don't have to worry about that during rev either.

[Luke Cox]

10/10 the best worst idea I've ever heard

[Armhulen]

Side note, this would be the popularity boost that sec needs.

[kevinz000]

I'm on my phone but I considered this a little
Right now my plan for a prototype is
Captain is leader
Anyone with a round start implant is on his side
Captain can do handshakes regardless of antag status
In order 66 he gets a scaled amount of conversion handshakes
Conversion handshakes convert someone to your side
Goals for the prototype will be securing objects and nuking the station while escaping on the shuttle.
Victory won't be red or green text but will be a percentage

Now for the less clear parts from the thread
1. Should converted people be visible on hud and be implanted with a loyalty implant
2. Should the captain be the only one who can convert or can all loyalty implantations do it
3. What do we do about cargo being able to order more if we go with option two
4. Can anyone on Captain's side steal items or does it have to be the captain himself which opens the issue of inventory or another method like cargo shuttle
5. Should the captain be able to program the nuclear bomb to go off after shuttle leaves or does he have to manually time it
6. Will there be a way of deconverting the nanotrasen side
7. Do you absolutely have to kill or strand all witnesses or can some escape

[Nilons]

I think this is a fantastic idea but that the handshaking needs to be put in much much earlier than the rest, like get that in the game first and build around it so that captains actually start using it and its commonplace by the time the gamemode is properly introduced

[kevinz000]

I think this is a fantastic idea but that the handshaking needs to be put in much much earlier than the rest, like get that in the game first and build around it so that captains actually start using it and its commonplace by the time the gamemode is properly introduced

Noted.

[kevinz000]

Alright I think I have an idea of how to do this..

[Nilons]

I might be retarded but just make what is currently loyalty implants all be mindshields and all future loyalty implants a part of this game mode

[Not-Dorsidarf]

So this is like, reverse-rev?

[InsaneHyena]

Now that gangs have been removed, it's time for a new gamemode to rise.

[Jacough]

The company can now be the badguys without subtlety like most Sci-Fi!

Was there any doubt about this? I mean they have corporate soldiers who are literally trained and on standby to murder every last living thing on the station and that's basically their entire purpose. It's almost like the helghast training mission in Killzone 3 where you shoot at targets consisting of unarmed people surrendering.

[kevinz000]

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/26963 handshakes!

[Nilons]

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/26963 handshakes!

Was there already a handshake coded? I cant read the github

[Kel]

ive only skimmed the thread but heres an idea to make it fit with the order 66 theme more:
captain can prime people for conversion silently without notice (other than shifty behavior or some shit)
then the captain can pop ORDER 66 ONCE to convert everyone he's primed
noone is alerted of this action other than his clone army
sec would come pre-primed maybe maybe not

[onleavedontatme]

This is never getting merged.

-We already have four modes where security genocides the crew and it makes people especially mad and its generally a situation admins dont want to touch at all.

-We have problems with security genociding the crew even outside those modes because the mentality tends to stick.

-We have conditioned players for years to trust security and that they'll get banned for attacking them for making an arrest. Our rules will break down and people will start killing security for arrests again if arrests are a sign of an imminent massacre. It will be all the downsides of traitor sec magnified several times over because at least in traitor sec the other officers could be appealed to.

-Similarly admins have been wagging their fingers at "valid hunters" who build weapons and go kill people, and coders have obliged and nerfed easy crew weapons (stun gloves, stun prods, slips, etc). So after 5 years of telling players not to arm up pre-emptively and instead to let sec deal with the bad guys, and taking away all their weapons code side, they're supposed to deal with sec just murderspreeing out of the gate?

-What would the gameplay even be? You start with all the guns, you start with AI upload access, you start with all access. Security can kill the entire crew (rev/gangs) when the crew has the element of surprise. Security with prep time vs an unarmed and unaware civilian population would be a complete massacre. It'd be like a full nuke team + malf vs a crew with no sec.

I just can't imagine this being fun for anyone but sec or it ever being remotely balanced.

[Qbopper]

maybe not but it's a cool idea and I think we need more of those

[onleavedontatme]

I mean yeah conceptually it's exciting but it'd just be fucking miserable in practice.

I'd rather bring back traitor captain/traitor sec than add a mode where all of them are antagonists.

[kevinz000]

KEK.
atleast no time was wasted.
rest in peace, star wars reference gamemode, you had potential..

[kevinz000]

i'll keep coding it if i get a guaruntee it won't get instaclosed.
oh yeah if you want a new gamemode and kor says no don't even bother.

https://github.com/kevinz000/-tg-station/tree/order-66 if anyone wants to still try, here it is, it's half finished.

[Nabski]

Why does this even need to be a conversion mode with the handshakes?

Why couldn't it just be Capt+security+1(2) persons from each department depending on population. (Or one entire department, today's ORDER 66 brought to you by security and service). Hell why does one of the departments HAVE to be security, why not just make it two random and just include security in the options list.

Making it non conversion removes those meta tells of "captain is running trying to handshake the robust players", but still makes it team based.

You could have the order not activate until 5 minutes in or the first person dies if you wanted to eliminate that rush to X aspect of it.(Sorry that you got the assistant department, they've all suicide hoplined already)

[ohnopigeons]

Since the issue is with Security being on the side of Order 66 why not simply exclude security? Make it Captain + handshake conversions only.

This might raise similar concerns with crew-Captain relations but the quality of Captains are so highly variable in the first place that it probably doesn't matter.

[ohnopigeons]

autism

[Qbopper]

I think as long as we avoid "sec is the driving force for the antags" then the idea has merit

So are you saying that the black ops are antags ala traitors where they get a notification? Would make more sense than doing it newcops style and could be interesting - loyalty implants not deconverting would also be a neat flavor meme since this is being done by nanotrasen

I like the idea of "captain must live at all costs", but I'm not sure how it would work out in game

I think the black ops + converted people would need some way to communicate, though I'm not sure how you would do that in a way that makes sense

This strikes me as an actually feasible concept, though (who wants to take bets on kor coming in and ruining my day again)

[Yakumo_Chen]

AI isn't a guaranteed spawn, and there's only ever one medal of captaincy now....

[Okand37]

I admit I didn't read a lot of the ensuing conversation because I wanted to say something:
HBL did a really fun event like this where it was a 'reverse revolution' of sorts. The captain, heads of staff, and security were tried by crimes in space vietnam by nanotrasen and had decided to put their straws in with the syndicate, whereas the rest of the crew were urged by nanotrasen to start up against them. As chaos ensued, different messages and supply drops/interactions with the crew were made by the criminal syndicate with the heads of staff versus nanotrasen loyalists. It ended with a syndicate strike team and a deathsquad each being sent the station(?) putting it out of its misery.
It was a bit chaotic, but I think it was fairly interesting and it could be fun to see something similar in a proper, organised gamemode!

[Anonmare]

AI isn't a guaranteed spawn, and there's only ever one medal of captaincy now....

You can do what the traitor objectives do and make leaving with an empty intellicard count

[ohnopigeons]

So are you saying that the black ops are antags ala traitors where they get a notification?

I'm not really sure what you mean by ala traitors. Aside from the Captain, all other antags are conversions so they'd get notification about their purpose just like revs and cults.

I like the idea of "captain must live at all costs", but I'm not sure how it would work out in game

Which part are you not sure about? If its about the crew adhering to keeping the Captain alive, the idea is to have players learn that a la "5 monkeys and a ladder", with the deathsquad acting as the water spray.

I think the black ops + converted people would need some way to communicate, though I'm not sure how you would do that in a way that makes sense

I'm thinking PDAs. Black ops would communicate normally 1 to 1 through a PDA, but it might be a good idea to give them a secret IRC channel, accessible through Set Ringtone, with identities hidden behind code names. I don't like the idea of headsets because they're too easily compromised.

Maybe I'm wrong but operatives never work together unless someone charismatic takes the reigns and it all goes to pot when they can no longer see and be with the team.

Nuke ops seldom work together very well because they're randomly picked and thrown together into a squad. With a limited number of converts, the idea is for the Captain to selectively pick black ops members, and it is in the Captain's interest to pick people who are competent and capable of teamwork. Gangs also had this element as conversion had a very long cooldown so gangs who converted robust and competent people first had a definite advantage over other gangs. Maybe to further increase cooperation, the objectives could be given to the Captain only, with black op converts only told to help the Captain carry out said objectives, similar to the law 0 AI-borg relationship.

On the topic of conversion and their recent (legitimate!) criticisms, this shouldn't apply because I'm thinking of a max conversion cap of 6 people or less, the idea is to have the group small like a nuke op team.

[TheColdTurtle]

Suggestion: have the captain have a codephrase that when said it activates the antag status for everyone else. Like he handshakes them, and then says the order which turns the order 66 thing on.

[Bombadil]

Why not make revolution a scenario where its either 66 or revolution. I mean its just a rev variant