Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

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WJohnston
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Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by WJohnston » #358088

So presently we have two pretty distinct types of game modes:

Backstabbing: Any kind of mode which involves being a sneaky sly frenchman like traitor, changeling, conversion modes and so on, where the crew tears itself apart. Security typically shoots at its own crew.
Co-op: Any kind of mode which involves dealing with clear-cut outside forces attacking the station, such as nuke ops, blobs, aliens, meteors and so on.

The problem:
Player vs player gameplay is interesting in all its forms. While I personally very much dislike the whole "security has tasers and cuffs and puts people in little boxes for 30 minutes because that guy might be an antagonist" bullshit, there can be some really interesting emerging moments and it'd be a shame to get rid of it in its entirety. Co-op modes do this without the whole security-being-shit-to-its-own-crew deal because you have a clearly defined outside threat to rally against and no fear of an asshole changeling appearing out of thin air behind you. While these are great on their own, they fundamentally do not mix with eachother. There's no such thing as working together when any one the people with you (possibly multiple) could turn on you at any moment.
Unfortunately, getting rid of either half of these game modes would greatly reduce the amount of gameplay options and variety that ss13 provides, and that's too great a loss to do.



So here's a middle ground!



The solution:
The idea here is to make use of the roundstart elevation to blue alert to only occur in backstab type modes, while no such thing happens in co-op modes.
This gives players a meta way of knowing "okay, do I check my back and not trust anyone this round, or do I start preparing for an outside threat?". Basically you can gear yourself up with peace of mind that no changeling will suck out your genes while the ops, meteors, or blobs prepare for 20 minutes. It'll quell the whole "misplaced mistrust" issue we have in gamemodes where not trusting your fellow crewmembers is actually detrimental for everyone involved.

Thoughts?
Apparently I was an director or something.
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kevinz000
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by kevinz000 » #358090

part of the game is not knowing what the threat is.
having this immediately narrows it to "security is going to crack down on crew" or "security doesn't give a fuck about minor ic crime because they have worse things to worry about automatically without having to figure it out themselves".

if players immediately get a cue that it's coop or backstab
1. in backstab mode everyone is going to go paranoia and not let anyone get in two fucking tiles of them while security arrests for the tiniest things.
2. in coop mode everyone immediately helps each other powergame and hand out dangerous shit freely because "hey they're not going to kill me later with this thing I just gave them!"

not fun.
Last edited by kevinz000 on Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by obscolene » #358091

tfw it's a co-op round and everyone is arming up waiting for the blob/nuke ops to come
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[03:47:33]SAY: Steve Leaf/The Dreamweaver : OH FUCK IM CHOAKING (129,128,2)
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Yakumo_Chen
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by Yakumo_Chen » #358101

>paranoia laden game is the entire premise
>"let's reduce paranoia"

Hokay
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WJohnston
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by WJohnston » #358103

Paranoia used in modes where paranoia is unfounded and detrimental to everyone is dumb.
Apparently I was an director or something.
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kevinz000
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by kevinz000 » #358109

Part of the game, atleast to me, and I hope to many people here, is deciding whether you should or should not trust someone on a metal deathtrap, and I even think that requiring more trust is good (although not lock-chem-dispenser-by-id or anything idlock/extreme).
This would remove that in about half our modes and dampen it in the other half.
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ShadowDimentio
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by ShadowDimentio » #358111

If you KNOW you can trust other people the game just turns into a massive powergame-off (see: war ops). War ops is fun as a rare novelty but jesus this would get annoying fast.
Spoiler:
"Clowns are different you can't trust those shifty fucks you never know what they're doing or if they're willing to eat a dayban for some cheap yuks."
-Not-Dorsidarf

"The amount of people is the amount of times the sound is played... on top of itself. And with sybil populations on the shuttle..."
-Remie Richards

"I just spent all fucking day playing fallen london and sunless sea and obsessing over how creepy the fucking dawn machine is and only just clocked now that your avatar is the fucking dawn machine. Nobody vote for this disgusting new sequence blasphemer he wants to kill the gods"
-Stickymayhem

"Drank a cocktail of orange Gatorade and mint mouthwash on accident. Pretty sure I'm going to die, I am on the verge of vomit. It was nice knowing you guys"
-PKPenguin321

"You're too late, you will have to fetch them from the top of my tower, built by zombies, slaves, zombie slaves and garitho's will to live!"
-Armhulen

"This is like being cooked alive in a microwave oven which utilises the autistic end of the light spectrum to cook you."
-DarkFNC

"Penguins are the second race to realise 2D>3D"
-Anonmare

"Paul Blart mall cops if they all had ambitions of joining the Waffen-SS"
-Anonmare

"These logs could kill a dragon much less a man"
-Armhulenn

">7 8 6
WHAT MADNESS IS THIS? POETIC ANARCHY!"
-Wyzack

"We didn't kick one goofball out only to have another one come in like a fucking revolving door"
-Kraseo

"There's a difference between fucking faggots and being a fucking faggot."
-Anonmare

"You guys splitting the 20 bucks cost to hire your ex again?"
-lntigracy

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-Timbrewolf

"I prefer my coffees to run dry too *snorts a line of maxwell house*"
-Super Aggro Crag

"You don't have an evil bone in your body, unless togopal comes for a sleepover"
-Bluespace

">Paying over a $1000 for a lump of silicon and plastic
Lol"
-Anonmare

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Yakumo_Chen
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by Yakumo_Chen » #358112

Half the challenge of half our modes like ops and clock is that the crew doesn't know what's coming and thus can't prepare, often other meta tells for other modes will throw the crew off like revtide
Take away the surprise and you take the biggest advantage these antag start with
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WJohnston
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by WJohnston » #358116

Yeah reducing unfounded trust is the entire point of this idea. Because not trusting people early on in gamemodes where you should is a dumb grudge-inducing waste of time. This helps deal with that early game.

Although I understand the fears of basically preparing for war ops every round. Nuke ops, blob, wizard, meteors etc would need some rebalancing to be able to start off much sooner, or for the crew to have a much harder time building up and distributing their arsenal. A lot more rebalances would need to be designed after this. I think this would be the first step in actually being able to balance the game around that 2 minute mark announcement.

It's also a really bad sign of the state of our balance. that such antags have basically no chance of success if the crew actually knows about them and prepares ahead of time. Now though we'll have an actual timer to work with balancing things around.
Apparently I was an director or something.
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ShadowDimentio
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by ShadowDimentio » #358119

Literally how does your idea REDUCE unfounded trust? It increases it by a billion.
Spoiler:
"Clowns are different you can't trust those shifty fucks you never know what they're doing or if they're willing to eat a dayban for some cheap yuks."
-Not-Dorsidarf

"The amount of people is the amount of times the sound is played... on top of itself. And with sybil populations on the shuttle..."
-Remie Richards

"I just spent all fucking day playing fallen london and sunless sea and obsessing over how creepy the fucking dawn machine is and only just clocked now that your avatar is the fucking dawn machine. Nobody vote for this disgusting new sequence blasphemer he wants to kill the gods"
-Stickymayhem

"Drank a cocktail of orange Gatorade and mint mouthwash on accident. Pretty sure I'm going to die, I am on the verge of vomit. It was nice knowing you guys"
-PKPenguin321

"You're too late, you will have to fetch them from the top of my tower, built by zombies, slaves, zombie slaves and garitho's will to live!"
-Armhulen

"This is like being cooked alive in a microwave oven which utilises the autistic end of the light spectrum to cook you."
-DarkFNC

"Penguins are the second race to realise 2D>3D"
-Anonmare

"Paul Blart mall cops if they all had ambitions of joining the Waffen-SS"
-Anonmare

"These logs could kill a dragon much less a man"
-Armhulenn

">7 8 6
WHAT MADNESS IS THIS? POETIC ANARCHY!"
-Wyzack

"We didn't kick one goofball out only to have another one come in like a fucking revolving door"
-Kraseo

"There's a difference between fucking faggots and being a fucking faggot."
-Anonmare

"You guys splitting the 20 bucks cost to hire your ex again?"
-lntigracy

"Wew. Congrats. It's been actual years since anyone tried to make fun of me for being divorced. You caught me, I'm tilted. Here is your trophy."
-Timbrewolf

"I prefer my coffees to run dry too *snorts a line of maxwell house*"
-Super Aggro Crag

"You don't have an evil bone in your body, unless togopal comes for a sleepover"
-Bluespace

">Paying over a $1000 for a lump of silicon and plastic
Lol"
-Anonmare

"Then why did you get that boob job?"
-DrPillzRedux

"You take that back you colonial mongrel"
-Docprofsmith

"I don't care whether or not someone with an IQ 3 standard deviations below my own thinks they enjoy Wizard rounds."
-Malkraz
WJohnston
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by WJohnston » #358120

I meant to say unfounded distrust, my bad there.
Apparently I was an director or something.
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Yakumo_Chen
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by Yakumo_Chen » #358121

WJohnston wrote:Yeah reducing unfounded trust is the entire point of this idea. Because not trusting people early on in gamemodes where you should is a dumb grudge-inducing waste of time. This helps deal with that early game.

Although I understand the fears of basically preparing for war ops every round. Nuke ops, blob, wizard, meteors etc would need some rebalancing to be able to start off much sooner, or for the crew to have a much harder time building up and distributing their arsenal. A lot more rebalances would need to be designed after this. I think this would be the first step in actually being able to balance the game around that 2 minute mark announcement.

It's also a really bad sign of the state of our balance. that such antags have basically no chance of success if the crew actually knows about them and prepares ahead of time. Now though we'll have an actual timer to work with balancing things around.
Most of these antags have a start time of "as soon as they are ready" so there is no feasible way to balance this outside of giving preset kits that further homogenize game modes
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ShadowDimentio
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by ShadowDimentio » #358122

Everyone not linking arms and completely destroying every antag instantly is a deliberate design choice. None of our antags, with the single possible exceptions of blob and war ops, is able to go toe-to-toe with the crew at full heft.

What you're proposing will unbalance the entire game, and for what? A minuscule increase in crew cooperation?
Spoiler:
"Clowns are different you can't trust those shifty fucks you never know what they're doing or if they're willing to eat a dayban for some cheap yuks."
-Not-Dorsidarf

"The amount of people is the amount of times the sound is played... on top of itself. And with sybil populations on the shuttle..."
-Remie Richards

"I just spent all fucking day playing fallen london and sunless sea and obsessing over how creepy the fucking dawn machine is and only just clocked now that your avatar is the fucking dawn machine. Nobody vote for this disgusting new sequence blasphemer he wants to kill the gods"
-Stickymayhem

"Drank a cocktail of orange Gatorade and mint mouthwash on accident. Pretty sure I'm going to die, I am on the verge of vomit. It was nice knowing you guys"
-PKPenguin321

"You're too late, you will have to fetch them from the top of my tower, built by zombies, slaves, zombie slaves and garitho's will to live!"
-Armhulen

"This is like being cooked alive in a microwave oven which utilises the autistic end of the light spectrum to cook you."
-DarkFNC

"Penguins are the second race to realise 2D>3D"
-Anonmare

"Paul Blart mall cops if they all had ambitions of joining the Waffen-SS"
-Anonmare

"These logs could kill a dragon much less a man"
-Armhulenn

">7 8 6
WHAT MADNESS IS THIS? POETIC ANARCHY!"
-Wyzack

"We didn't kick one goofball out only to have another one come in like a fucking revolving door"
-Kraseo

"There's a difference between fucking faggots and being a fucking faggot."
-Anonmare

"You guys splitting the 20 bucks cost to hire your ex again?"
-lntigracy

"Wew. Congrats. It's been actual years since anyone tried to make fun of me for being divorced. You caught me, I'm tilted. Here is your trophy."
-Timbrewolf

"I prefer my coffees to run dry too *snorts a line of maxwell house*"
-Super Aggro Crag

"You don't have an evil bone in your body, unless togopal comes for a sleepover"
-Bluespace

">Paying over a $1000 for a lump of silicon and plastic
Lol"
-Anonmare

"Then why did you get that boob job?"
-DrPillzRedux

"You take that back you colonial mongrel"
-Docprofsmith

"I don't care whether or not someone with an IQ 3 standard deviations below my own thinks they enjoy Wizard rounds."
-Malkraz
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Yakumo_Chen
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by Yakumo_Chen » #358123

This thread is so bad I am agreeing with ShadowDimentio, this should never happen
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ShadowDimentio
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by ShadowDimentio » #358124

How does it feel to be right for a change? :honk:
Spoiler:
"Clowns are different you can't trust those shifty fucks you never know what they're doing or if they're willing to eat a dayban for some cheap yuks."
-Not-Dorsidarf

"The amount of people is the amount of times the sound is played... on top of itself. And with sybil populations on the shuttle..."
-Remie Richards

"I just spent all fucking day playing fallen london and sunless sea and obsessing over how creepy the fucking dawn machine is and only just clocked now that your avatar is the fucking dawn machine. Nobody vote for this disgusting new sequence blasphemer he wants to kill the gods"
-Stickymayhem

"Drank a cocktail of orange Gatorade and mint mouthwash on accident. Pretty sure I'm going to die, I am on the verge of vomit. It was nice knowing you guys"
-PKPenguin321

"You're too late, you will have to fetch them from the top of my tower, built by zombies, slaves, zombie slaves and garitho's will to live!"
-Armhulen

"This is like being cooked alive in a microwave oven which utilises the autistic end of the light spectrum to cook you."
-DarkFNC

"Penguins are the second race to realise 2D>3D"
-Anonmare

"Paul Blart mall cops if they all had ambitions of joining the Waffen-SS"
-Anonmare

"These logs could kill a dragon much less a man"
-Armhulenn

">7 8 6
WHAT MADNESS IS THIS? POETIC ANARCHY!"
-Wyzack

"We didn't kick one goofball out only to have another one come in like a fucking revolving door"
-Kraseo

"There's a difference between fucking faggots and being a fucking faggot."
-Anonmare

"You guys splitting the 20 bucks cost to hire your ex again?"
-lntigracy

"Wew. Congrats. It's been actual years since anyone tried to make fun of me for being divorced. You caught me, I'm tilted. Here is your trophy."
-Timbrewolf

"I prefer my coffees to run dry too *snorts a line of maxwell house*"
-Super Aggro Crag

"You don't have an evil bone in your body, unless togopal comes for a sleepover"
-Bluespace

">Paying over a $1000 for a lump of silicon and plastic
Lol"
-Anonmare

"Then why did you get that boob job?"
-DrPillzRedux

"You take that back you colonial mongrel"
-Docprofsmith

"I don't care whether or not someone with an IQ 3 standard deviations below my own thinks they enjoy Wizard rounds."
-Malkraz
WJohnston
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:16 am
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by WJohnston » #358126

ShadowDimentio wrote:None of our antags, with the single possible exceptions of blob and war ops, is able to go toe-to-toe with the crew at full heft.
This right here is kind of a bad thing. The announcement system is the first step, there would need to be a lot of rebalancing in the end to make the crew less unstoppably powerful.

A full rebalance of the game isn't really possible, or at least no sane person would ever want to do so. Still, our current system doesn't really work on its own, either, because as you just said, something as innocuously small as "OPS" or "WIZARD" or "BLOB" can totally tear these guys a new asshole even right now.
Apparently I was an director or something.
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ShadowDimentio
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by ShadowDimentio » #358127

The crew isn't unstoppably powerful, there's just like a 15-70 crew to 1-8 antag ratio.
Spoiler:
"Clowns are different you can't trust those shifty fucks you never know what they're doing or if they're willing to eat a dayban for some cheap yuks."
-Not-Dorsidarf

"The amount of people is the amount of times the sound is played... on top of itself. And with sybil populations on the shuttle..."
-Remie Richards

"I just spent all fucking day playing fallen london and sunless sea and obsessing over how creepy the fucking dawn machine is and only just clocked now that your avatar is the fucking dawn machine. Nobody vote for this disgusting new sequence blasphemer he wants to kill the gods"
-Stickymayhem

"Drank a cocktail of orange Gatorade and mint mouthwash on accident. Pretty sure I'm going to die, I am on the verge of vomit. It was nice knowing you guys"
-PKPenguin321

"You're too late, you will have to fetch them from the top of my tower, built by zombies, slaves, zombie slaves and garitho's will to live!"
-Armhulen

"This is like being cooked alive in a microwave oven which utilises the autistic end of the light spectrum to cook you."
-DarkFNC

"Penguins are the second race to realise 2D>3D"
-Anonmare

"Paul Blart mall cops if they all had ambitions of joining the Waffen-SS"
-Anonmare

"These logs could kill a dragon much less a man"
-Armhulenn

">7 8 6
WHAT MADNESS IS THIS? POETIC ANARCHY!"
-Wyzack

"We didn't kick one goofball out only to have another one come in like a fucking revolving door"
-Kraseo

"There's a difference between fucking faggots and being a fucking faggot."
-Anonmare

"You guys splitting the 20 bucks cost to hire your ex again?"
-lntigracy

"Wew. Congrats. It's been actual years since anyone tried to make fun of me for being divorced. You caught me, I'm tilted. Here is your trophy."
-Timbrewolf

"I prefer my coffees to run dry too *snorts a line of maxwell house*"
-Super Aggro Crag

"You don't have an evil bone in your body, unless togopal comes for a sleepover"
-Bluespace

">Paying over a $1000 for a lump of silicon and plastic
Lol"
-Anonmare

"Then why did you get that boob job?"
-DrPillzRedux

"You take that back you colonial mongrel"
-Docprofsmith

"I don't care whether or not someone with an IQ 3 standard deviations below my own thinks they enjoy Wizard rounds."
-Malkraz
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Yakumo_Chen
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by Yakumo_Chen » #358129

No amount of comms screaming is going to stop ops who have the disk already or a wizard who is already destroying security. The element of surprise is the number one reason the crew must stay paranoid in every round type.
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by Qbopper » #358150

i'm all for encouraging cooperative gameplay but telling the crew "lol it a coop round" is not a good idea
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by cedarbridge » #358155

You know what would reduce crew distrust too? Blatantly announcing the roundtype. That's stupid too.
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by Cobby » #358166

I'm just a bit confused what the end goal is here.

We already give you blatant tells that you can meta work together in war ops and blob. This would fuck over the only two other applicable modes, cc and stealthops, because they rely on stealth and not knowing the mode.
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by Deitus » #358167

im personally against this for reasons that have already been stated.
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by JJRcop » #358355

I'm not only not in favor of this, I'm excited for the complete opposite direction: datum antag mixed mode, where even though it's confirmed clock cult, you can still be sucked up by a changeling.
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Wyzack
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by Wyzack » #358391

This would literally turn more of our gametypes into a team deathmatch. what a thoroughly awful idea
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by Nilons » #359110

What if we took a top down whodunnit and told everyone whodunnit?

Then we'd just have a top down and that's not very fun is it
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by DemonFiren » #359134

so who triggered oranges?
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Spoiler:
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by Ezel » #361200

Just make code blue activate when a traitot buy his first item or cult makes their first move :^)
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Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by Xango » #371026

WJohnston wrote:So presently we have two pretty distinct types of game modes:

Backstabbing: Any kind of mode which involves being a sneaky sly frenchman like traitor, changeling, conversion modes and so on, where the crew tears itself apart. Security typically shoots at its own crew.
Co-op: Any kind of mode which involves dealing with clear-cut outside forces attacking the station, such as nuke ops, blobs, aliens, meteors and so on.

The problem:
Player vs player gameplay is interesting in all its forms. While I personally very much dislike the whole "security has tasers and cuffs and puts people in little boxes for 30 minutes because that guy might be an antagonist" bullshit, there can be some really interesting emerging moments and it'd be a shame to get rid of it in its entirety. Co-op modes do this without the whole security-being-shit-to-its-own-crew deal because you have a clearly defined outside threat to rally against and no fear of an asshole changeling appearing out of thin air behind you. While these are great on their own, they fundamentally do not mix with eachother. There's no such thing as working together when any one the people with you (possibly multiple) could turn on you at any moment.
Unfortunately, getting rid of either half of these game modes would greatly reduce the amount of gameplay options and variety that ss13 provides, and that's too great a loss to do.



So here's a middle ground!



The solution:
The idea here is to make use of the roundstart elevation to blue alert to only occur in backstab type modes, while no such thing happens in co-op modes.
This gives players a meta way of knowing "okay, do I check my back and not trust anyone this round, or do I start preparing for an outside threat?". Basically you can gear yourself up with peace of mind that no changeling will suck out your genes while the ops, meteors, or blobs prepare for 20 minutes. It'll quell the whole "misplaced mistrust" issue we have in gamemodes where not trusting your fellow crewmembers is actually detrimental for everyone involved.

Thoughts?
One of my favorite moments in the game have been getting backstabbed. This one time I managed to acquire the title of captain as traitor. Killed everyone that may or may mot have been onto me (added them to my subverted borg army) and protected a traitor that was caught while killing someone and formed a team with them. I had a secret base in maint where I hid the guy and it had all the command consoles. He and I killed a lot of people and an ERT just showed up. They catch me. I tell them as they are taking me to centcomm that my accomplice is on the station and will bomb it if he doesn't hear from me. They laugh and tell me that he was the one that informed centcomm about what was happening in the first place! Turns out I was his target and I was working with my own killer.
This server is a rotting carcass and we are feasting on its remains
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Xango
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:51 pm
Byond Username: Xango

Re: Co-op vs Backstabbing IC Announcements

Post by Xango » #371027

I realise now that what I wrote has nothing to do with what op said but meh whatever its a cool story
This server is a rotting carcass and we are feasting on its remains
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