Augmentations Department.

[Arkraven]

Ok so I started thinking about this topic, augmentations are cool and offer some benefits but robotocists really don't have time for that in the middle of borging/mech making.

So why not make a new department, add a couple different augmentation options, and open up another job category?

Hell stick it in between med and research, make it a co-owned department like genetics is and voila.

Thoughts?

[cedarbridge]

Ok so I started thinking about this topic, augmentations are cool and offer some benefits but robotocists really don't have time for that in the middle of borging/mech making.

So why not make a new department, add a couple different augmentation options, and open up another job category?

Hell stick it in between med and research, make it a co-owned department like genetics is and voila.

Thoughts?

Not really needed. Either get the parts from robotics and get a surgeon to do it (not like MDs are seriously doing anything else with their time) or have one of the two normally assigned roboticists do what is functionally a 10 minute procedure. Really, augs aren't complex operations and if the roboticist is competent enough to get a brain out without consulting a guide, they should be able to get a full set of augs done in the time it takes to print the 6 borg heads it takes to implant the augs.

[Arkraven]

Which is why I was saying to flesh out the augmentation system a lot more, it would open jobs on the station and waste less of everyone elses time (Even arguing otherwise librarians exist, and have a huge space... This job would be more useful by a mile.) Also a ten minute procedure would be about the same as 2/3 Borgs being churned out. It's still a good chunk of time being wasted, hell we have short prison times because you only have so much of it to spend on the station.

If it was open to the public as its own station and the system is fleshed out, I am sure it would see more use.

Another reason is because the system right now is easy in terms of implanting, but its sort of bland.

[cedarbridge]

Which is why I was saying to flesh out the augmentation system a lot more, it would open jobs on the station and waste less of everyone elses time (Even arguing otherwise librarians exist, and have a huge space... This job would be more useful by a mile.) Also a ten minute procedure would be about the same as 2/3 Borgs being churned out. It's still a good chunk of time being wasted, hell we have short prison times because you only have so much of it to spend on the station.

If it was open to the public as its own station and the system is fleshed out, I am sure it would see more use.

Another reason is because the system right now is easy in terms of implanting, but its sort of bland.

A public access surgery would just be looted at roundstart without fail.

[Arkraven]

Robotics isn't stripped every round so that argument doesn't fly, if you were referring to people having open access though that's why I said to make it an actual job with access restrictions and its own little department room with an electronic window.

[cedarbridge]

Robotics isn't stripped every round so that argument doesn't fly, if you were referring to people having open access though that's why I said to make it an actual job with access restrictions and its own little department room with an electronic window.

When did robotics turn into a public area? Your statement was literally "if it were open to the public." Robotics isn't robbed blind at round start because people work that office and use the tools for a purpose. They make borgs/augs with those tools. There's another set of tools on the station in the surgery room in medical. Those are kept behind several doors requiring specific access. Partially because they're robust and partially because surgery can do a lot of kinda special things. As stated before, there's already several means by which people can get augs and the only way you'd be able to create an "augmentations lab" is to literally make a second robotics lab. Aug parts are literally borg parts grafted onto a person via surgery.

[Raven776]

Why is why he wants to take that specific function away from just robotics, change/improve/expand it, and make a new job centered around doing it.

Personally? I'd like for it to be an MD's job to do augments in this fashion, or at least someone in medical.

[Arkraven]

I was suggesting that augmentations should be more available (as in the actual augmenting of a person) to the public not the actual department/tools...

So what I am suggesting cedar IS to expand on the original augmentation system, make augmentations useful and more viable to get. Then give them an office which people can work in too. Yes its part of robotics now, but how often in a round do you actually see people getting augments out of how many rounds per day? Not a lot because it offers no variety and robotics is usually busy with its own thing.

There may also be several means to go about augmenting, but they usually involve going out of your way and wasting a good 10 to fifteen minutes. A lab where people are specifically augmenting other people with a variety of different augmentation tech rather than just grafting borg heads on to a body (Seriously what) is infinitely a better system then one that's barely if ever used.

[cedarbridge]

I was suggesting that augmentations should be more available (as in the actual augmenting of a person) to the public not the actual department/tools...

So what I am suggesting cedar IS to expand on the original augmentation system, make augmentations useful and more viable to get. Then give them an office which people can work in too. Yes its part of robotics now, but how often in a round do you actually see people getting augments out of how many rounds per day? Not a lot because it offers no variety and robotics is usually busy with its own thing.

There may also be several means to go about augmenting, but they usually involve going out of your way and wasting a good 10 to fifteen minutes. A lab where people are specifically augmenting other people with a variety of different augmentation tech rather than just grafting borg heads on to a body (Seriously what) is infinitely a better system then one that's barely if ever used.

What I'm trying to get across here is the only thing this will do to make things "more available" is lampshade their existence. You asked why most rounds go without people getting aug'd. That's easy. People don't get auged because they don't ask. Simple as that. The procedure never gets requested from the department(s) that are already charged with doing them. Since nobody asks, the roboticists find other things to do. Your chain of cause and effect is out of whack. Roboticists aren't doing other things which prevents augs. Its the fact that nobody asks for augs that leads the roboticists not to perform the operations.

I've been an advocate for several different kinds of new augs and what not (I was actually thinking somebody was working on stuff like aug-shades and the like for this feature release cycle and I guess those fell through) but that doesn't mean we need a whole new department (without a place on the map to put them even) for these things to be added. Also, when considering the addition of a new lab/department/job you have to ask yourself what they will be doing when they're not doing their primary function. When we run back into the "nobody is asking for augs" that we already have in the status quo, your "augmentation dudes" will, what? Jerk off?

[Arkraven]

I was suggesting that augmentations should be more available (as in the actual augmenting of a person) to the public not the actual department/tools...

So what I am suggesting cedar IS to expand on the original augmentation system, make augmentations useful and more viable to get. Then give them an office which people can work in too. Yes its part of robotics now, but how often in a round do you actually see people getting augments out of how many rounds per day? Not a lot because it offers no variety and robotics is usually busy with its own thing.

There may also be several means to go about augmenting, but they usually involve going out of your way and wasting a good 10 to fifteen minutes. A lab where people are specifically augmenting other people with a variety of different augmentation tech rather than just grafting borg heads on to a body (Seriously what) is infinitely a better system then one that's barely if ever used.

What I'm trying to get across here is the only thing this will do to make things "more available" is lampshade their existence. You asked why most rounds go without people getting aug'd. That's easy. People don't get auged because they don't ask. Simple as that. The procedure never gets requested from the department(s) that are already charged with doing them. Since nobody asks, the roboticists find other things to do. Your chain of cause and effect is out of whack. Roboticists aren't doing other things which prevents augs. Its the fact that nobody asks for augs that leads the roboticists not to perform the operations.

I've been an advocate for several different kinds of new augs and what not (I was actually thinking somebody was working on stuff like aug-shades and the like for this feature release cycle and I guess those fell through) but that doesn't mean we need a whole new department (without a place on the map to put them even) for these things to be added. Also, when considering the addition of a new lab/department/job you have to ask yourself what they will be doing when they're not doing their primary function. When we run back into the "nobody is asking for augs" that we already have in the status quo, your "augmentation dudes" will, what? Jerk off?

That's not a reason... its a symptom and the real reason is whats the point of getting the augs? There is no real reason at the moment because benefits are negligible, thats the reason the current system is for better or worse boring and flawed and that's why no one asks. Give the players interesting choices, they get interested in the product.

Location wise, a small office between the morgue and the robotics lab would work, get rid of 3 of the morgue tables and voila more space.

Again you could literally say the same thing of librarians or chaplains, only one serves a legitimate purpose right now in a round (cult). Atmos has the same issue, once atmos is set up they start building space trains for god sakes.

[Saegrimr]

Atmos has the same issue, once atmos is set up they start building space trains for god sakes.

Are you implying people actually set up atmos before hauling the disposal and transit pipe dispensers to the escape wing?

Either way, both of you aren't wrong.
Roundstart: Roboticist gets his shit together and starts printing cyborg parts for the inevitable dude who rolled librarian or greyshirt and wants to get borged. Replaces a battery on the starting borg. If no more people show up at the window? Its mech time, motherfucker. Maybe print up another borg shell to lay around in case someone else wants to join the glorious silicon master race.

Sometimes you get those shitter robos who close up shop and start trying to aug themselves, and generally dont know how to do their job so they don't want mess something up like augs. Or tator robos who fuck off somewhere instead of emagging everything that comes through his doors.

[cedarbridge]

I was suggesting that augmentations should be more available (as in the actual augmenting of a person) to the public not the actual department/tools...

So what I am suggesting cedar IS to expand on the original augmentation system, make augmentations useful and more viable to get. Then give them an office which people can work in too. Yes its part of robotics now, but how often in a round do you actually see people getting augments out of how many rounds per day? Not a lot because it offers no variety and robotics is usually busy with its own thing.

There may also be several means to go about augmenting, but they usually involve going out of your way and wasting a good 10 to fifteen minutes. A lab where people are specifically augmenting other people with a variety of different augmentation tech rather than just grafting borg heads on to a body (Seriously what) is infinitely a better system then one that's barely if ever used.

What I'm trying to get across here is the only thing this will do to make things "more available" is lampshade their existence. You asked why most rounds go without people getting aug'd. That's easy. People don't get auged because they don't ask. Simple as that. The procedure never gets requested from the department(s) that are already charged with doing them. Since nobody asks, the roboticists find other things to do. Your chain of cause and effect is out of whack. Roboticists aren't doing other things which prevents augs. Its the fact that nobody asks for augs that leads the roboticists not to perform the operations.

I've been an advocate for several different kinds of new augs and what not (I was actually thinking somebody was working on stuff like aug-shades and the like for this feature release cycle and I guess those fell through) but that doesn't mean we need a whole new department (without a place on the map to put them even) for these things to be added. Also, when considering the addition of a new lab/department/job you have to ask yourself what they will be doing when they're not doing their primary function. When we run back into the "nobody is asking for augs" that we already have in the status quo, your "augmentation dudes" will, what? Jerk off?

That's not a reason... its a symptom and the real reason is whats the point of getting the augs? There is no real reason at the moment because benefits are negligible, thats the reason the current system is for better or worse boring and flawed and that's why no one asks. Give the players interesting choices, they get interested in the product.

Location wise, a small office between the morgue and the robotics lab would work, get rid of 3 of the morgue tables and voila more space.

Again you could literally say the same thing of librarians or chaplains, only one serves a legitimate purpose right now in a round (cult). Atmos has the same issue, once atmos is set up they start building space trains for god sakes.

You apparently weren't here when people were complaining about augs being op. Full body non-armory damage reduction and being spaceworthy without eva gear is really fucking strong. The ability to heal yourself with a welder is really damn strong. Current augs have tons of advantages. People simply can't be bothered to ask for them for whatever reason. Ironically, the last time somebody asked me for augs it was the captain. And we were recently flashed revs.

Librarians and chaplains have full round function already built into their jobs. Their libarary/chapel areas are open spaces without a predefined function (other than checking out or storing books I guess) but an aug lab isn't comparable. Atmos techs do the same thing other engineers do when they finish their early round setup. They build things. So where's the comparison? Are aug-men going to go out and build something? If you can't explain the comparison here I'm afraid it falls a bit flat. There's no "what if nobody wants augs" scenario that makes sense.

[Arkraven]

Well then I didn't realize it was that op.

I don't mean just stat boosts I mean variety. The reason why people don't get it is because its out of the way and not exactly fully available time wise, that and its just sort of boring to have the same effects over and over again. I am talking a streamlined method of getting augmented that would be enticing or interesting for the crew to get for example:

HUD augments
Adrenalin implant
xray implant

so on and so forth, and before you say that would invalidate genetics, virology has dna aide which does the same thing, science can already build specs if technology levels are great enough. This isn't about being op this is about having interesting aug effects.

As for your second argument aug-men are going to do things related to their job skill... they aren't borgs that lose everything once they get modified, people can go in and get augmented for their specific needs and be better able to do their job.
If you are referring the the augmenters rather than the augmentees, well balance out augmentations with having to get tune ups every so often which also gives us a reason for this job in the first place. As for your "comparison" you didn't actually give an example of what the Chaplin and librarian do all round. The librarian fills shelves and then what? The Chaplin goes nuts and then what? Hell what do lawyers do most of the time when there isn't a case going on?

[cedarbridge]

Well then I didn't realize it was that op.

I don't mean just stat boosts I mean variety. The reason why people don't get it is because its out of the way and not exactly fully available time wise, that and its just sort of boring to have the same effects over and over again. I am talking a streamlined method of getting augmented that would be enticing or interesting for the crew to get for example:

HUD augments
Adrenalin implant
xray implant

so on and so forth, and before you say that would invalidate genetics, virology has dna aide which does the same thing, science can already build specs if technology levels are great enough. This isn't about being op this is about having interesting aug effects.

As for your second argument aug-men are going to do things related to their job skill... they aren't borgs that lose everything once they get modified, people can go in and get augmented for their specific needs and be better able to do their job.
If you are referring the the augmenters rather than the augmentees, well balance out augmentations with having to get tune ups every so often which also gives us a reason for this job in the first place. As for your "comparison" you didn't actually give an example of what the Chaplin and librarian do all round. The librarian fills shelves and then what? The Chaplin goes nuts and then what? Hell what do lawyers do most of the time when there isn't a case going on?

You don't need a new department to add new augments. This isn't a requirement and shouldn't be one.

Also, I can tell by your join date that you haven't realized yet. Nobody seriously thinks DNA aide is a good virus symptom. The current running desire is to have it removed. So that's really not here nor there.

Your "augmenters", by admission, have nothing to do after the initial 10-15 minutes of requested augs. The "tune up" thing is just a tack-on to produce artificial longevity. There's no progression, no "end-game", no goal. And that's the point. Jobs like Librarian and Chaplain are entirely built on gimmicks (outside of chaplains in cult rounds.) That's their entire purpose. They're like clowns and mimes. They spend the whole round running gimmicks. They're not bound to a specific "working" task to facilitate that.

So far we have "new augs would be cool" and "We need an entire new lab/department to do what two other departments are already capable of doing." The first part has been discussed and as I said, I'm surprised it didn't already get implemented. The second part is silly.

[iyaerP]

Honestly, I saw a lot more augmented people back before flashes were nerfed. With a stunning flash, a roboticist could defend department if the person asking to be auged turned out to by a psycho/tator. I know that I have gotten reasonable requests refused out of robo paranoia before

[cedarbridge]

Aren't those the same sorts of roboticists that flip out because "everyone" is out to steal their flashes/saw?

[Arkraven]

You don't need a new department to add new augments. This isn't a requirement and shouldn't be one.

Also, I can tell by your join date that you haven't realized yet. Nobody seriously thinks DNA aide is a good virus symptom. The current running desire is to have it removed. So that's really not here nor there.

Your "augmenters", by admission, have nothing to do after the initial 10-15 minutes of requested augs. The "tune up" thing is just a tack-on to produce artificial longevity. There's no progression, no "end-game", no goal. And that's the point. Jobs like Librarian and Chaplain are entirely built on gimmicks (outside of chaplains in cult rounds.) That's their entire purpose. They're like clowns and mimes. They spend the whole round running gimmicks. They're not bound to a specific "working" task to facilitate that.

So far we have "new augs would be cool" and "We need an entire new lab/department to do what two other departments are already capable of doing." The first part has been discussed and as I said, I'm surprised it didn't already get implemented. The second part is silly.

I may have joined this forum recently, but I've been playing the game since it had the thermal engines that had a heat leak issue. aide is not a good idea but its still is a thing, and so are equipment that essentially share the same function as the genetics abilities.

And the tune ups aren't a gimmick they are a balance correction issue. If you give someone a very op ability that they can toggle a couple of times, then just give them limited uses before repair is needed. Also I can accept Chaplin/clown/mime have gimmicks, but the librarian doesn't really unless you count wgw readings because librarians don't interact with the crew in any rp way other than that really.

But for the sake of the argument lets use your logic here: Whats the point of having a librarian? I mean they stack books and a shelf then what? what rp role do they serve? Does it "Artificially" increase the longevity of the job to force them into a gimmicky rp role that they don't fit?

As for endgame, nano augs that let you have brief abilities would be a great endgame.

Honestly, I saw a lot more augmented people back before flashes were nerfed. With a stunning flash, a roboticist could defend department if the person asking to be auged turned out to by a psycho/tator. I know that I have gotten reasonable requests refused out of robo paranoia before

More reason to have a department dedicated to being able to handle thieving dicks, have the augmenting crew start off with a default SLIGHT stun resistance augment and go from there.

[cedarbridge]

[quote="Arkraven"]
But for the sake of the argument lets use your logic here: Whats the point of having a librarian? I mean they stack books and a shelf then what? what rp role do they serve? Does it "Artificially" increase the longevity of the job to force them into a gimmicky rp role that they don't fit?
/quote]
I'm not going to keep this going because the goalposts have moved from justifying a redundant department to justifying the librarian's job. If you cannot justify the need for a department that's not already doing that job (medical and robotics) then there's no reason to add a new lab just to add new augs.

[Arkraven]

The justification is the use of a system that hasn't seen much use recently due to a multitude of factors here, I've nothing from you here but frail arguments that are applicable to other jobs on the station. You've made it clear that you won't change your mind from the beginning and every time I do refute an argument you fall back on calling it a gimmick when I point out that other jobs have this same "Issue" too. I've explained how it would work, the end game, how to retain balance and longevity and more.

Also please go back and read the reasons why a new department would be better than just throwing it at other departments that already have a lot on their plate, we've already discussed this.

Edit: You even resorted to discrediting me here with how long you assumed I had been around here for versus how long I have lurked/actually played the game.

[cedarbridge]

The justification is the use of a system that hasn't seen much use recently due to a multitude of factors here, I've nothing from you here but frail arguments that are applicable to other jobs on the station. You've made it clear that you won't change your mind from the beginning and every time I do refute an argument you fall back on calling it a gimmick when I point out that other jobs have this same "Issue" too. I've explained how it would work, the end game, how to retain balance and longevity and more.

Also please go back and read the reasons why a new department would be better than just throwing it at other departments that already have a lot on their plate, we've already discussed this.

Edit: You even resorted to discrediting me here with how long you assumed I had been around here for versus how long I have lurked/actually played the game.

You're still failing to see the difference between functionally free-form jobs like librarian and clown vs jobs like engineer and scientist. They aren't comparable because they aren't played in any way similarly. Repeating yourself isn't a refutation. Its repetition. Similarly, your post here isn't a refutation. Its a whine.

You claimed that the "department" would be better able to defend itself from people getting augs (after adding a bit where they're supposedly starting spawned with extra implants for stun resist which its nuts for balance reasons, I shouldn't need to even say this) when a competent roboticist (or two) is more than capable of dealing with one naked man on an operating table. You then stated that "roboticists have too much to do." This was refuted by causality. Nobody gets augs because they're not asked for (even granting the "variety" argument there's no reason to need another department for this) and thus not installed. Since nobody asks for them, roboticists find other things to do, like mechs or whatever.

Your "end game" was a one line suggestion about "nano-augs" with no indication of what they are, how to get them, what makes them matter and why they are "end-game." That's still not a refutation, that's a vague suggestion.

"Tune ups" are a gimmick in that they share no similarity with anything outside of eating or borgs recharging. This is, again, vague, and poorly explained at best. At worst its a "stamina" system the likes of which has already been rejected in several other different forms. Also, there's no indication that even if this were added, that the special new department would even be needed for this procedure.

You are right that you're not likely to change my mind, but that's mostly because your proposal is something small wanting to be something needlessly big and you're very attached to that idea. Expanded augs is a great idea as already stated. I will restate, there are already two departments that are already more than capable of doing anything this "new" department would do. And they could do it without any of the downtime this new thing would require.

Ask yourself this, when a roboticist has nobody to make into a borg, what do they do? They make mechs, they aug themselves or each other, etc etc. Roboticists have lots of stuff to do when their main function is done. This augs department without people to augment would do...nothing. And that's the point. If you cannot justify the need for that department there's nothing left to discuss outside of how cool it would be to finally get those expanded augs (I might even make that my first bigger code project) because as it stands, there is no reason that robotics/medical cannot handle current augs or any new additions.

Edit: You seriously cited dna aide as a justification for needless department overlap in function. Think about that for a second.

[Cheridan]

There's been a shift in focus in regards to job design, towards giving fewer jobs a greater amount of things to do. Scientists can pick between R&D, telesci, bombcrafting, and xenobiology. They're not divided into specific Xenobiologist or Toxins Researcher job roles, as doing that limits the freedom of what people can do.

If a ton of new augmentations get added and there's massive demand for them that the current roboticists can't handle, then it might make sense to make a separate job. Until then it'd be another feature searching for a purpose.

[Erbbu]

I'm all for surgery being a major point in playing a MD. Them starting with a good amount of cyborg parts for augs in the surgery room would be great, with more available by having the roboticists cooperate. Also augs could be fleshed out to have additional functionality down the line.

[deathhoof]

Surgery tools are very easy to come by. Its literally bedsheet + blue toolbox + glass/knife + axe
the hard part is getting robot parts, which is why I believe a partially complete robot part printer should be added to the abandoned surgery room.

[Cipher3]

Surgery tools are very easy to come by. Its literally bedsheet + blue toolbox + glass/knife + axe
the hard part is getting robot parts, which is why I believe a partially complete robot part printer should be added to the abandoned surgery room.

Metastation has that.

[srifenbyxp]

Augmented people in general should have more buffs rather than the slight damage protection up. Given the fact that flesh is replaced by actual metal (on a side note negates HULK) it would make sense to give these buffs to augmented parts or at least fully augmented people.

Ling stings has a chance of not working when the selected body part is augmented, saying they failed along with a clinging sound. So that when a player is actually paying attention they'll be alerted.

Energy based stuns are reduced by a few ticks depending if the shot/hit landed on the augmented part

Augmented people as you know can't be healed by normal means of a bruise pack (plus cyro I think) and can be damaged by EMPs. Where it stands in the augmentational aspects the cons are more which makes it better to wear a red shirts uniform for that extra defense.

But for the actual main topic augmentations should stay in robotics, need cyborg stuff to augment people and robotics is better equipped to heal augmented people.

[deathhoof]

Repair drones should be equipable as a backpack so that augmented people wont have to be frustrated by the annoying wire and welders. Alternatively, ingesting thermite should repair brute damage and ingesting silicon should heal burn damage. Perhaps a new chemical can neade that would act as tricord for augmented beings. Perhaps there can be am alchoholic drink for them that acts as doctors delight.