Merge doctors and chemists

[FantasticFwoosh]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Please do this, Chemists are usually useless and relying on them rarely ever works out.

"Chemists are assholes" is a bad reason to remove the job.

"Chemist exclusivity gives the chemist berth to express how much of a asshole they are when asked to do stuff" would probably be more appropriate wording. Basically hold most of medical to ransom for the chems they need if the mob hasn't deconstructed the barrier windows out of rage & looted everything, then go quit & do stupid shit when you get overruled and eventually the MD steps in to do the job you should be doing while calling sec for your arrest.

- As borderline hostile relations as R&D for pushy people jumping the queue and B&A just to get their meta-gear, i won't say the word if you don't press me to, but you know what i mean.

[WarbossLincoln]

I think you're kinda exaggerating. Sure it can happen, but most of the time I've never had an issue getting chemicals from chemists. As long as it's something reasonable. Hell, even as an assistant half the time they'll give me chemicals if they aren't obviously dangerous. I used to play chemist a lot and rarely saw it get mobbed and looted too. Usually only in an emergency like when the AI went rogue and everyone wanted to make thermite to burn his lair down. The only thing that would always happen in my experience is on box the clown would make a hidden wall by the chem dispenser so he could make lube.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Don't excuse the behaviour, the players don't care about you as a chemist, they care about what they want to do with the chemicals.

Its like HOP, *if they know you are either reliable or a pushover they don't throw any aggro at you.

[Screemonster]

If chemists don't bother doing their jobs and pull ancap NAP memes over being demoted for it, ban those chemists

Really though, just abstract it:
A does thing to provoke action from B
B acts
A murders them on the spot if B doesn't succeed in said action, or else comes back for revenge if they do
B ahelps
A says it was self defence

"thing to provoke action" is being shit at / not doing job
"action" is demoting
in either case murder/eternaltide is a shitty escalation from being demoted anyway

[FantasticFwoosh]

I mean, a chemist is within their right to not dispense chemicals to strangers or those who they feel will use innappropriately AKA. obvious shitters, or very offkey requests that sound extremely fishy. Same as for most other jobs that deal with service interactions with the 'public'

Its like people running up to HOP desk asking for a random assortment of access nowhere near their local workspace for no given reason.

- You can in theory be bwoinked and have a note/ban put on you for being complicit with a non-antag (and edge case) bombing by being a direct supplier of materials to a request that sounds suspicious.

[Screemonster]

Yeah but there's a far cry between "not providing lube and deathchems to the clown" and "not making medicine for doctors"

[FantasticFwoosh]

Then where is the bottom line in the complacency chemists (or "any staff that actively service the station", janitor, clown & mime, chef, chaplain, R&D, robotics, xenobio, toxins, botany) in what the are willing to do? There isn't one, if they fuck off they risk the wrath of people around them but aren't going to get a note or banned for it.

They cannot be commanded with law 2's, so doing your job to standard should be enforcable in such a position. (there already is a legal term, derliction of duty in space law)

Dissolving the position in favor of doctors only makes it a generic medical staff problem which is a lot easier to manage, like how the scientists are cut from the same cloth but just work different positions.

[Screemonster]

Banning people for not doing their job isn't what I'm talking about.
Banning people for nonantag murdering the CMO for demoting them for not doing their job is.

[Lazengann]

I sure love when I'm the botanist and the chemist gives me 50 units of mutagen and then if I want more after makes me wait 7 minutes while he very slowly reads the chemistry guide and works on a project of his own followed by making chemicals for the guy who's waiting before me
Or the ones who make me wait and then refuse to give my chemicals unless I say please and kiss their ass

Chemist is the ONLY job where the game is more fun for everyone else when nobody picks it.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

You'll only end up posting
"I sure love when I want chems but the dispensers are all being used by autist powertrippers while the MDs who want to give me mutagen stew impotently", Lazenagnn

[cocothegogo]

i dont know why we're discussing this its a good idea and should be done

[Lazengann]

You'll only end up posting
"I sure love when I want chems but the dispensers are all being used by autist powertrippers while the MDs who want to give me mutagen stew impotently", Lazenagnn

At least someone in that scenario would want to give me mutagen

[Cobby]

Chemistry is my realm and I cant fathom pesky stutterwhores that aren't me placing their small neko hands on my precious piece of equipment.

[Lazengann]

Chemistry is my realm

This explains a lot

[cedarbridge]

I sure love when I'm the botanist and the chemist gives me 50 units of mutagen and then if I want more after makes me wait 7 minutes while he very slowly reads the chemistry guide and works on a project of his own followed by making chemicals for the guy who's waiting before me
Or the ones who make me wait and then refuse to give my chemicals unless I say please and kiss their ass

Chemist is the ONLY job where the game is more fun for everyone else when nobody picks it.

me me me
now now now

You admit that the chemist is working on several things at once and you're pissed that the guy doing the job doesn't do it fast enough for your liking. It turns out when you have somebody that doesn't know what they're doing they might be slow. Expanding the number of people shoving into the chem lab isn't going to make that guy faster. Its just going to stuff more people into the chem shed to keep said newbie chemist from learning the job.

[Lazengann]

me me me
now now now

You admit that the chemist is working on several things at once and you're pissed that the guy doing the job doesn't do it fast enough for your liking. It turns out when you have somebody that doesn't know what they're doing they might be slow. Expanding the number of people shoving into the chem lab isn't going to make that guy faster. Its just going to stuff more people into the chem shed to keep said newbie chemist from learning the job.

The newbie chemist wouldn't be learning the job because chemist wouldn't be a job any more.

edit: and yes, I do think having to wait 7 minutes for another player to click the chlorine, radium, and phosphorus buttons one time each so I can do anything interesting is fucking stupid because god forbid the chemist lets anyone in to touch the other dispenser he's not using

[Screemonster]

have you considered getting fucking good and learning how to botany without crutches

[Haevacht]

This thread and idea are bad and you should feel bad.

[Lazengann]

have you considered getting fucking good and learning how to botany without crutches

Alright I'll make blumpkins with left 4 zed let me just set the pumpkin production speed to 1 so it'll mutate before the shuttle comes

Oh

[cedarbridge]

The newbie chemist wouldn't be learning the job because chemist wouldn't be a job any more.

What kind of backwards rationale is this? Fuck new players because I want my autism juice RIGHT NOW.

As discussed elsewhere anyway, there's a word of things you can make in botany already that don't require you to start morphing the place into second arms race. Removing an entire department because you can't figure out how to get what you ~need~ without smashing windows and tearing your hair out is dumb.

[Lazengann]

Removing an entire department

Cedar stop posting and read the threads. This isn't removing a department, it's giving medical doctors access to chemistry. I don't know if you play this game often but it's usually easier to get chemicals and medicine when there isn't some shithead who thinks he owns the dispensers and inconveniences others just so he can feel important.

[cedarbridge]

Removing an entire department

I don't know if you play this game often but

Stopped reading right here. Stop doing this. It makes you look stupid.

[Lazengann]

Removing an entire department

I don't know if you play this game often but

Stopped reading right here. Stop doing this. It makes you look stupid.

I don't care about looking stupid as long as I win the dispute

[cedarbridge]

<snipped quote tree>
I don't care about looking stupid as long as I win the dispute

Only it doesn't. That's the point. You tried to pull this shit on Cobby in the Botany thread and got told to get lost for the same reason. You're not going to score any points pretending you're the only one who plays the game. We get it. You don't like having to ask the chemist to give you something that enables your botany meme plants.

You've so far ignored all reasons why:
1) This doesn't solve the problem you propose to solve.
2) This doesn't solve the real reason you want this change made.
3) This is really just a sideways way of trashing on new players that made you wait a few minutes for your mutagen.

If you want to present your change and have it considered seriously then you should do so without trying to turn this into a personal war between yourself and anyone who disagrees with you.

[CPTANT]

<snipped quote tree>
I don't care about looking stupid as long as I win the dispute

Only it doesn't. That's the point. You tried to pull this shit on Cobby in the Botany thread and got told to get lost for the same reason. You're not going to score any points pretending you're the only one who plays the game. We get it. You don't like having to ask the chemist to give you something that enables your botany meme plants.

You've so far ignored all reasons why:
1) This doesn't solve the problem you propose to solve.
2) This doesn't solve the real reason you want this change made.
3) This is really just a sideways way of trashing on new players that made you wait a few minutes for your mutagen.

If you want to present your change and have it considered seriously then you should do so without trying to turn this into a personal war between yourself and anyone who disagrees with you.

But this DOES make doctors a not completely useless job and it gives the former chemist a way of actually leaving their booth and utilizing their chems.
it WILL make fewer people in those roles suicide out of boredom.
it DOES increase the traitor potential of medbay.

[cedarbridge]

But this DOES make doctors a not completely useless job and it gives the former chemist a way of actually leaving their booth and utilizing their chems.
it WILL make fewer people in those roles suicide out of boredom.
it DOES increase the traitor potential of medbay.

Not really though. MD's are still the same job they were before except they're also all now chemists. Chemistry will get used about as much as it already does because there are still only two machines and the two players who are already roundstart assigned to chem will just fill those seats randomly from spawn placement with a merge.

I've rarely seen a MD player "suicide out of boredom." The job is shallow and thankless in its current form but the players rolling MD intentionally generally accept that it is what it has been for a while now. It won't really improve by adding chem access. Its still the same job.

Traitor chemists and CMOs were already a thing. Traitor chemistry is super robust already so having the chemists noticeable in their bright orange uniforms is a minor but useful counterbalance. MD's who wanted illicit access to chem could already do it reasonably easily without free roundstart access and by giving the whole department access you're actually making it harder to get sneaky things done because not there could be any number of people suddenly barging into the lab to take a peak.

[FantasticFwoosh]

You roll MD just to be a doctor with additional access to chem and cloning so you can run medbay solo, i don't see the remainder of your argument? Its not exactly secret in a open office surrounded by windows anyway, its sneaker to find a backroom in medical to mix some chems you take with you.

[CPTANT]

But nobody cares about whatever you mix in the first place.

You can just stand there mixing super obvious ClF3 or something else and people will just go "lol, hellfoam"


And now you say yourself that it is a shallow and thankless job. How does adding chemistry NOT change the job, it gives something to actually do in those long spans of time between people needing medical aid.

The chemistry system may be robust but it is vastly under-utilised since chemists have no reason to ever leave their booth, a chemist out of his booth is instantly noticeable.

[iamgoofball]

i'm going to do this

but i'm also going to have a front facing chem lab and a back room chem lab

best of both worlds

[FantasticFwoosh]

i'm going to do this

but i'm also going to have a front facing chem lab and a back room chem lab

best of both worlds

Yes please. Any more chem functionality machines planned to fit the backroom?

[iamgoofball]

probably chem vats

[cedarbridge]

And now you say yourself that it is a shallow and thankless job. How does adding chemistry NOT change the job, it gives something to actually do in those long spans of time between people needing medical aid.

The chemistry system may be robust but it is vastly under-utilised since chemists have no reason to ever leave their booth, a chemist out of his booth is instantly noticeable.

You're mixing my argument around to suit yourself. Its shallow and thankless because the system that it is built on is shallow and encourages self-service. You won't change that by turning everyone into chemists. The system will remain shallow and self-service. You fix that by changing medical (see the other thread on the topic) not by just making more chemists to produce more self-serivce chems. You're proposing a bandaid solution to a medical system badly needing depth by saying "well, chem has some depth and I don't like waiting for mutagen so lets just make everyone a chemist so then medbay will suddenly become interesting because everyone will be doing chem."

A chemist out of his booth should be noticeable BECAUSE the system is robust. That's entirely the point. We don't have some magical shortage of chemists doing antag things as chemists so I don't see your argument here. Are you suggesting that antag chemists would rather just sit in the chem shed than be antags?

You can just stand there mixing super obvious ClF3 or something else and people will just go "lol, hellfoam"

You need to make up your mind. Is chemistry a robust threat that players should care about or a meme that people blow off because who cares what the chemist is doing?

You roll MD just to be a doctor with additional access to chem and cloning so you can run medbay solo, i don't see the remainder of your argument? Its not exactly secret in a open office surrounded by windows anyway, its sneaker to find a backroom in medical to mix some chems you take with you.

[cedarbridge]

i'm going to do this

but i'm also going to have a front facing chem lab and a back room chem lab

best of both worlds

I'd be interested to hear how you propose balancing that though. What do you propose being different from the front facing and back room labs?

[FantasticFwoosh]

Good, because its too easy to break into those places and get access to ALL the machines. Chem vats are a little ambigious, i would have thought a storage of supplies (pillboxes etc), the personal lockers for chemists and maybe a additional piece of machinery (a centrifuge machine or something like that?)

Its both cedar, a dangerous meme people don't take too seriously that will end up killing people, as long as you have a near endless supply of chems a traitor on the run chemist (or port chem scientist) is a very dangerous person able to break down defences with acid, flammable substances and also trip people with cleaning agent while not being affected due to noslips.

[Doctor Pork]

Weekly "You should just remove genetics and put chemlab there with dual med/sci access and just have taggers and boxes to deliver chems. Also add 100ml jugs you can make using chemmaster" post.

[Armhulen]

Weekly "You should just remove genetics and put chemlab there with dual med/sci access and just have taggers and boxes to deliver chems. Also add 100ml jugs you can make using chemmaster" post.

Good

[Reece]

probably chem vats

Like industrial scale mixing vats? That would be pretty cool.

[Ezel]

Give chemists shock collars so if they leave their post they get permastunned give cmo the key

[Doctor Pork]

Weekly "You should just remove genetics and put chemlab there with dual med/sci access and just have taggers and boxes to deliver chems. Also add 100ml jugs you can make using chemmaster" post.

Just gonna put this here and get it out of the way for the week. See you in 7 days.

[Doctor Pork]

Weekly "You should just remove genetics and put chemlab there with dual med/sci access and just have taggers and boxes to deliver chems. Also add 100ml jugs you can make using chemmaster" post.

Just gonna put this here and get it out of the way for the week. See you in 7 days.

Whoops I forgot. Whatever 7 days, a month, who's counting?

[oranges]

weekly response: no

[Doctor Pork]

weekly response: no

How about just the jugs and a tagger for chemlab?

[cedarbridge]

weekly response: no

How about just the jugs and a tagger for chemlab?

I tried doing the taggers thing but apparently I'm shit at fixing map conflicts.

[Doctor Pork]

weekly response: no

How about just the jugs and a tagger for chemlab?

I tried doing the taggers thing but apparently I'm shit at fixing map conflicts.

Maybe they chemist could have them with their starting equip to avoid having to do map hijinx?

[Doctor Pork]

Weekly "You should just remove genetics and put chemlab there with dual med/sci access and just have taggers and boxes to deliver chems. Also add 100ml jugs you can make using chemmaster" post.

Just gonna put this here and get it out of the way for the week. See you in 7 days.

Whoops I forgot. Whatever 7 days, a month, who's counting?

[Toroic]

This is only an issue outside of baymed tbh.

Broken bones requiring surgery makes doctors essential for a lot of the injuries that show up throughout the round, with brute injuries being just chem-healable there's little need for ghetto surgery and thus little need for docs to do real surgery.

Especially with the cloning change there's little reason to do surgery period on injured people, which basically means chem implants and augmentation is the only thing to do.

[cedarbridge]

Ban Pork from the ideas forum.

[Doctor Pork]

Ban Pork from the ideas forum.

THE HEART WANTS WHAT THE HEART WANTS CEDAR AND WHAT MY HEART WANTS IS TO MAIL 100ML JUGS OF METH ALL OVER THE STATION

WHY WONT YOU LET ME HAVE THIS

[DiamondSentinel]

So basically, you're saying that have the most active department should have the fewest jobs a department has.

Because that's a great idea... Doctors don't have nothing to do. Yes, they spend a lot of time with machines, but there's also surgery, field medicine, etc.

Anyways, I've never seen more than 2 just regular doctors running around, so to say that we need to make the doctor the jack-of-all-trades would make most of medical quite unfun.

On the other hand, I think that science could use to be a little more spread. I'd suggest making Xenobiology and Toxins their own job, just like Medical has all of their jobs. On the other hand, if you guys shoot that down, then I suppose medical should get the same treatment, and consolidate them all.