Remove assistants from antag selection

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:52 am #21134

I'm told this was suggested before but got buried.
I'm bringing it up again.

Simple suggestion, brings major changes to the game and especially to /tg/station.
If your job is assistant, you're prevented from being chosen as a round-start antag.

The good:

1) Massive cutbacks on grey-tide shitters. If you want to be considered for an antag role, you actually have to take a meaningful role on the station. We'll see fewer assistants screaming around the halls raising hell.

2) Increases in less-popular but still needed jobs like medical doctor, ancillary jobs like librarian or lawyer.

3) Makes it easier to recognize players who are just here to fuck around and annoy others when they're still fucking off all the time grey-tiding as non-assistants.

4) Reinforces the idea that the assistant is a job for new players to learn the game and actively help players with real jobs on the station, not for people who've mastered everything to get a loaded-roll for antag...and if they don't get it just go off and raise hell anyway because "I'm an assistant lol".

The bad:

1) People will metagame that grey jumpsuit = non-antag.

2) People who try to legitimately roleplay as assistant characters (kek) will have less reason to do so.

Commence discussion.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:56 am #21136

While I like the idea. Your raised point on people metagameing that Assistants are not Antagonists is the big decider for me on this issue.

Security can get away with being a confirmed non-antag due to them being Security and having a IC reason to not be a antag (Loyalty Implants).

---

If its possible simply disallow Assistants from being selected for anything but off-station antags (Nuke Ops/Wizard/Blob???), this is what should be happeneing for Sec as well but that's another discussion.

So yeah, this will need a lot more discussion on its merits and the whole confirmed non-antag part.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:57 am #21137

Being an assistant antag is fun because I can disguise malevolent acts as greytiding, and then later the person who let me go after screaming at me for what was actually a capital crime will be eaten by the singulo I released.

kosmos · Post by **kosmos** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:59 am #21138

Could it work if assistants had a much much lower chance of becoming an antag to counter the meta?

If this works (to drive people away) as effectively as it did with security jobs, we're gonna need more job slots if all the 16 assistants are gonna choose real jobs on the station!

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:03 am #21139

The problem with having a job that we often handwave horrible activity as "oh they're new they don't know better", is that it's typically populated by only or most experienced players because it's still a license to griff and not have to actually contribute anything to keeping the station running.

It's become something completely different than what it was originally intended for. It's an excuse for people who have been around long enough to know better to say "I'm playing a character that doesn't know better".

It's also in need of a balancing anyway, since the way job seeding and antag selection go Assistants are more likely than any other job on the station to get picked for antag. Which is another reason why the people who know more than the average player pick Assistant.

kosmos wrote:Could it work if assistants had a much much lower chance of becoming an antag to counter the meta?

Part of the problem is that they currently have a much much higher chance.

I imagine flipping that over and having the job seeder/antag selection process work in the opposite order would alleviate that problem.

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:00 am #21154

Please either do this or severely nerf their chance for antag.

I'm tired of seeing 15+ assistants and almost no engineers, doctors, security, whatever, all because Greyshirt McShitler wanted his antag role, didnt get it, and then decides to meta game and shit things up with his constant valid hunting.

tunderchief · Post by **tunderchief** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:54 am #21160

An0n3 wrote:
kosmos wrote:Could it work if assistants had a much much lower chance of becoming an antag to counter the meta?
Part of the problem is that they currently have a much much higher chance.

I imagine flipping that over and having the job seeder/antag selection process work in the opposite order would alleviate that problem.

Yeesh, I thought this was fixed years ago. How has this not been touched? It's literally propagating cancer, and heavily harming station functions without giving any benefit.

The fact that Assistant even an option when major departments are unstaffed is and always has been retarded, as everyone here knows that the vast majority of assistants are veteran shitlers and assholes, as opposed to the newfriends the role was intended for.

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:37 am #21167

And suddenly the assistant is one of the most trusted people on the station? Ha ha no.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:10 am #21169

At bare minimum Assistants should not have a greater chance of being selected as a antag than any other station role.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:30 am #21175

Steelpoint wrote:At bare minimum Assistants should not have a greater chance of being selected as a antag than any other station role.

This may actually work. Make assistants less likely to be antags, you remove meta, you make assistants less appealing overall. The only thing this set up needs is removal of assistant maintenance access.

I think that it's okay with assistant being an option, it's just they have too many privileges for someone with no responsibilities.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:34 am #21177

Removing Assistant maintenance access, as well as giving them a smaller chance (but still a chance) of being selected for being a antag would be the best way to approach this in my opinion.

It would also justify Security Officers not having maintenance access.

tunderchief · Post by **tunderchief** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:03 am #21182

Steelpoint wrote:Removing Assistant maintenance access, as well as giving them a smaller chance (but still a chance) of being selected for being a antag would be the best way to approach this in my opinion.

It would also justify Security Officers not having maintenance access.

I think the absolute best scenario is for whoever is doing the chances to say that Assistants have reduced Antag chance, but in reality give the role no chance at Antag.

This solves both the shitler and meta problems

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:28 am #21185

Er, I'm pretty sure that would be noticed.

Steelpoint wrote:It would also justify Security Officers not having maintenance access.

Yep, either both should have maint access or neither of them should.

Problem is, that's never gonna happen, because mappers build these stupid unnecessary maintenance treasure rooms that they want greytiders to loot and that also make blob overpowered.

Incomptinence · Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:38 am

How is it even greytiding to muck around in maint out of sight in mapper provided rooms? That sounds like staying out of the way and not being a huge problem at all?

Ahaha blob overpowered, oh my.

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:57 am #21190

>roll meaingful job.
>suicide because not-antag.

also people who roll assistant do so because they have no intention of playing other jobs.
do we really want 5 engineers suiciding at roundstart.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:59 am #21191

Incomptinence wrote:How is it even greytiding to muck around in maint out of sight in mapper provided rooms? That sounds like staying out of the way and not being a huge problem at all?

Ahaha blob overpowered, oh my.

It doesn't really matter, the point stands. Mappers want people to loot their special snowflake maintenance tunnels, which are more like mini-derelict at this point.

Bluespace wrote:>roll meaingful job.
>suicide because not-antag.

also people who roll assistant do so because they have no intention of playing other jobs.
do we really want 5 engineers suiciding at roundstart.

May be those people should get jobbannu then?

Alex Crimson · Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:31 pm

Your point is stupid. Anyone with half a brain can get into maint even without ID access. Ask the AI or just hack the airlock/deconstruct the wall. If a Blob wants to pop in maint, he will find a fucking way. The secret rooms are just for fun, just because you do not like them it doesnt mean others should be prevented from accessing them.

If people are that bothered about maint access for Assistants, how about this...

Assistants spawn without an ID. They must go to the HoP to get one. The HoP gets a new machine, maybe wall-mounted. Its an Assistant-level ID dispenser. He can click it with an empty hand to set maint access to yes/no. Clicking it with a PDA in hand automatically inserts an Assistant-level ID into the PDA, and names it to match the PDA. Maint access is now nothing to do with server settings, and can easily be decided on by the commanding staff at the start of each round.

As for the topic of Assistants not being antags. I disagree. Removing their ability to become antags, whilst i like that it would fill up other jobs, would just cause people to metagame and more people would pick a job then go braindead when they fail to get their antag status. I think the best idea ive read so far is to just lower the chances of Assistants becoming antags.

tunderchief · Post by **tunderchief** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:52 pm #21194

Bluespace wrote:>roll meaingful job.
>suicide because not-antag.

also people who roll assistant do so because they have no intention of playing other jobs.
do we really want 5 engineers suiciding at roundstart.

If the Assistant role were changed to this extent, it would really make it hard to avoid any actual work with real jobs. Shitlers who suicide when nonantag will always do so, regardless. If mitigating Assistant spill-off sends some of these players packing, it's for the best.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:33 pm #21204

Alex Crimson wrote:Your point is stupid.

You could say that, but you apparently did not GET the point. I'm not saying that assistants should not have maint access because of treasure rooms, I'm saying that mappers would not want assistant's maint access removed so that they can go explore those treasure rooms. If that's not the case, then fucking great.

And yes, I think that creating mini-derelict out of maint makes no sense IC or OOC. Adding more content to the station itself would be a lot better anyway.

Alex Crimson wrote:Assistants spawn without an ID. They must go to the HoP to get one. The HoP gets a new machine, maybe wall-mounted. Its an Assistant-level ID dispenser. He can click it with an empty hand to set maint access to yes/no. Clicking it with a PDA in hand automatically inserts an Assistant-level ID into the PDA, and names it to match the PDA. Maint access is now nothing to do with server settings, and can easily be decided on by the commanding staff at the start of each round.

Why do people love suggesting unnecessary complicated mechanisms when there's simple fucking solution right here in the open?

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:35 pm #21205

Bluespace wrote:>roll meaingful job.
>suicide because not-antag.

also people who roll assistant do so because they have no intention of playing other jobs.
do we really want 5 engineers suiciding at roundstart.

If people only play so that they can roll antag and greytide just ban them.
We're not exactly starving for players and I think everyone else, the people that try to actually do their jobs and RP, would appreciate having that kind of player gone.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:37 pm #21206

An0n3 wrote:If people only play so that they can roll antag and greytide just ban them.
We're not exactly starving for players and I think everyone else, the people that try to actually do their jobs and RP, would appreciate having that kind of player gone.

Pretty much.

If we're okay with players playing only for antag, jeeze, why don't we just give them antag status every round if they're so special and don't want to do anything else?

Or we could just remove them, which I prefer.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:45 pm #21209

and like i said, if an Assistant wants to get into maint, then they will. Removing maint access seems like it would just end up increasing the amount of hacked maint doors. Treasure rooms are not a detriment to the game, they just give people something to do and can result in some fun IC hijinks when Assistants make backalley bars or shops.

Lower chance for Assistants to be antags? Sure. Remove their maint access? Bad idea.

and banning greytiders? So long as they do something ban-worthy then sure.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:48 pm #21212

The point is not to keep assistants out of maint, the point is to reduce the appeal of assistant job.

It only makes sense that someone with no responsibilities has no access.

Also, like I said, both security and assistants should have/lack maintenance access.

Crushtoe · Post by **Crushtoe** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:53 pm #21215

I support lowering the chances of assistants getting antag. I'll admit, I've been abit of a dirty meta and chosen assistant just for its higher antag chance, and to just fuck around.

Usually, I try and make interesting situations if I'm trying for assistantraitor, but I know alot of people don't, and when I'm not an assistant, I usually don't.

As for maintenance access, I think it can go for assistants and security. It would lower atleast somewhat the chances of seeing a grey in maintenance, and running the fuck away because Anyone in maintenance is either greytiding, murdering, or doing something creative.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:57 pm #21216

The assistant role is ostensibly something for new players to learn the ropes of the game, to fuck off and wander around the station without any expectation of contributing anything.
It's something experienced players should naturally shy away from, when you've learned enough to contribute to the station you should be doing something to actively help out once you know how things work.

If you don't want to actually do any "work", that's cool and you should feel free to continue to pick assistant as your role, but I've always thought of antag rounds as kind of a reward for players who put in the time and actually do something on the station for X number of other rounds.

If you're not contributing anything to keep the station together on every other round, you shouldn't get the chance to destroy it every once in a while.

Can we not talk about maintenance access for assistants please? That's not the topic of conversation, and it's been discussed many many many times at great length. Make a separate thread if you want to discuss that please.

Crushtoe · Post by **Crushtoe** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:09 pm #21222

That is true, and personally I think there should be a policy of at what point you can't just be an assistant anymore; but that would never work out.

We have policies already that anyone breaking into robotics is volunteering to be borged, anyone into genetics volunteering to be tested on, anyone being a shit greytider is bannable, yet we still see people round after round greytiding because they planned to get antag, but even though they didn't they wont let that ruin their fun.

If we can do anything to move assistant back to what its for, new players to learn and Kenzie Smith to become Jonhathan's waifu and fuck, then I'm all for it. Currently, its just a festival of spears, stunprods, and B&E.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:34 pm #21230

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:The point is not to keep assistants out of maint, the point is to reduce the appeal of assistant job.

It only makes sense that someone with no responsibilities has no access.

Also, like I said, both security and assistants should have/lack maintenance access.

Removing maint access will change nothing. People play Assistant because they want to be part of the round without having any responsibilities or jobs to do.

I understand that too many people play Assistants whilst other jobs get ignored, and i agree that Assistants should get no benefits, but i fail to see how removing maint access will make the job less appealing.

Should just give maint access to both Assistants and Sec.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:35 pm #21231

Crushtoe wrote:That is true, and personally I think there should be a policy of at what point you can't just be an assistant anymore; but that would never work out.

We have policies already that anyone breaking into robotics is volunteering to be borged, anyone into genetics volunteering to be tested on, anyone being a shit greytider is bannable, yet we still see people round after round greytiding because they planned to get antag, but even though they didn't they wont let that ruin their fun.

If we can do anything to move assistant back to what its for, new players to learn and Kenzie Smith to become Jonhathan's waifu and fuck, then I'm all for it. Currently, its just a festival of spears, stunprods, and B&E.

Greytide shitlery has got to a point where even RnD has to arm up with a stun prod at roundstart to keep greys out. Usually its the same new known offenders and they always pull the same "omg shitcurity" "omg I just wanted a/an X!" when the Rd or somebody else throws them out. Every Fucking Time. I shouldn't have to threaten greys with a bodybag just to keeo them out of the department. RnD doesn't have enough roundstart wire for all those cablecuffs sometimes.

Crushtoe · Post by **Crushtoe** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:38 pm #21232

cedarbridge wrote:
Crushtoe wrote:That is true, and personally I think there should be a policy of at what point you can't just be an assistant anymore; but that would never work out.

We have policies already that anyone breaking into robotics is volunteering to be borged, anyone into genetics volunteering to be tested on, anyone being a shit greytider is bannable, yet we still see people round after round greytiding because they planned to get antag, but even though they didn't they wont let that ruin their fun.

If we can do anything to move assistant back to what its for, new players to learn and Kenzie Smith to become Jonhathan's waifu and fuck, then I'm all for it. Currently, its just a festival of spears, stunprods, and B&E.
Greytide shitlery has got to a point where even RnD has to arm up with a stun prod at roundstart to keep greys out. Usually its the same new known offenders and they always pull the same "omg shitcurity" "omg I just wanted a/an X!" when the Rd or somebody else throws them out. Every Fucking Time. I shouldn't have to threaten greys with a bodybag just to keeo them out of the department. RnD doesn't have enough roundstart wire for all those cablecuffs sometimes.

The thing that bugs me is its always the same damn players. Bryce Pax, for instance. They always fucking annoy the fuck out of you, act like shit, and break into everything, but its NEVER enough to warrant a ban. Always on the verge of it, but never on it.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:38 pm #21233

Can we start a poll to gauge the general view on revoking or restricting Assistants and them getting antag status?

It should be..
a:) Abstain
b:) Assistants should not be eligible for antag status.
c:) Assistants should have a significantly decreased eligibility chance for antag status
d:) Assistants are fine as they are.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:41 pm #21235

Alex Crimson wrote:Removing maint access will change nothing.

Then gee, there's not harm in removing it.

An0n3 wrote:Can we not talk about maintenance access for assistants please? That's not the topic of conversation, and it's been discussed many many many times at great length. Make a separate thread if you want to discuss that please.

Seems like a relevant matter to me. But sure, if you don't want this discussed for whatever reason.

Crushtoe · Post by **Crushtoe** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:43 pm #21237

A poll would be fine.

I just think the problem lies in that some specific players need to be punished for their tiding, and given reasons to not tide. them not being punished shows others they can just well tide away.

Not a ban, but mabye more IC punishments dealt by admins.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:48 pm #21238

Crushtoe wrote:A poll would be fine.

I just think the problem lies in that some specific players need to be punished for their tiding, and given reasons to not tide. them not being punished shows others they can just well tide away.

Not a ban, but mabye more IC punishments dealt by admins.

Really a lot of this B&E bullshit would normally be handled by sec in the IC sense. As it is now, sec is either underpopulated or busy dealing with real threats like lings/wizards/ewords/etc. So every part of the station turns into its own insular community protected by either themselves or nobody at all. As amusing as Golem security forces and telesciencing greytiders into perma in the sci wing can be, they shouldn't have to be the norm.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:59 pm #21251

this thread is dumb, syndicate agents are way more likely to be inexperienced assistants lore-wise and gameplay wise it's way more fun to fight assistants in anonymous grey shirts and gas masks.

edit: I do however support lowering the chances, but assistants have a stigma for a reason and that's never going to go away just as the shitcurity stigma has never left either.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:50 pm #21268

Our assistants aren't inexperienced though.

If you look at the level of experience in the game it's inversely proportional to the amount of responsibility a player typically wants to assume. Newer players typically gravitate towards jobs that are supposed to have more responsibility or authority. Heads of staff and security.

Our assistant population is usually made up of people who have played the game the most, and don't want to have a regular responsibility on the station because they want to be free to run around and antag hunt or ERP or sometimes (though rarely) genuinely just hang out and roleplay with people. I imagine most of them have probably been aware of the loaded antag rolls for awhile and it's been part of the reason why many of them have gravitated towards that job.

As it currently exists, Assistant is a role you pick to get a higher chance of being an antag, and if you don't get it, it's still generally accepted that it's okay for you to raise lesser kinds of hell and be a pain in the ass because "lol greytiiiiiiide".

The only solid reason NOT to make this change is the potential for metagamers assuming anyone in an assistant jumpsuit can't be an antag...but that's a fairly stupid assumption to make when there are DOZENS of lockers full of assistant clothes between the arrivals shuttle and locker rooms.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:00 pm #21272

Just give Assistants a really low chance to get antag. Most people here agree that is the best middle ground solution to this "problem". What else is there to say on the matter?

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:18 pm #21283

Fun Fact:

After examination of the code, it shows that assistants do not get "first dibs" on antag status. This is a myth.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/4250

Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:01 pm

Should probably be a poll.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:01 pm #21306

Why not poll it after we try it out first?

Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:06 pm

We can run many polls.

tunderchief · Post by **tunderchief** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:23 pm #21314

Threw a poll up in Feedback:

http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1050

Credit to Steelpoint for the basis of the poll options.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:14 pm #21324

Cool. Requesting a thread lock since we'll just continue the conversation there.