[POLL]Should the Assistant role have reduced Antag status?

[Steelpoint]

Bottom post of the previous page:

You don't give a shit because you only play security, which is not a popular job.

Your logical fallacy today is: ad hominem

[Rolan7]

Except I don't want to play every job. Why should I have a lower chance of being antag because I am made assistant?

You're being asked to play any job, not every job. This is exactly why I made the job selection system - so you can veto jobs you absolutely don't want. Nobody's forcing you to be an assistant, or any other individual job - just allow *something* which has slots free and you'll avoid the *reduced* antag chance.

Someone who sets their preferences to assistant only is refusing to help with *any* of the job slots which need volunteers. So yes, it's fair for people like that to suffer a mild "penalty" to antag chance.

[Scott]

No.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Personally if you lower or remove antag assistant I will just take up X random job and straight up run to HoP every round for demotion whenever I feel like rolling for antag without a "legit" job. Or maybe I'll just RP being really shit at my job and make it hell for you, doing absolutely nothing useful.

Well then you're just a fucking asshole and will hopefully be banned at some point for being shit.

It's funny how you guys say that lowering antag chances is "forcing you to play how we would like you to play". No, that's not true at all, but if you really want to be fucking useless greytider cunts, you will have to put up with some restrictions which are not even that big a deal. It's not forcing you to do anything, it's just making a job that is too useless to be appealing less appealing.

Before you go all "assistants are not always greytiders", you can be useful as any job, provided you are willing to be, some of those jobs are even more suited for that kind of stuff. I don't believe one second that you insist on going assistant, want to have antag and at the same time you're oh so useful for the station all the time.

[Scott]

Stop being autistic. People will play what they want to play.

[iamgoofball]

Stop being autistic. People will play what they want to play.

Here we have an example of your average person who doesn't play any other job then assistant.

so I have a few questions for you.

Why do you play assistant? What attracts you to the role of assistant? What would make it better or worse? What would encourage you to play other jobs?

[Lo6a4evskiy]

What would make it better

All access, being wizard and 100% antag status, of course. Adding things to the game is always good, removing things is always bad. That is an opinion.

[Scott]

Stop being autistic. People will play what they want to play.

Here we have an example of your average person who doesn't play any other job then assistant.

so I have a few questions for you.

Why do you play assistant? What attracts you to the role of assistant? What would make it better or worse? What would encourage you to play other jobs?

I get auto assigned to assistant. Check your autism at the door. Even when I do choose assistant, I go around fixing things.

Don't tell other people how they should play.

[Rolan7]

Then set less things to "never", moron. Hey look I can use meaningless insults too.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Even when I do choose assistant, I go around fixing things.

Obviously you shouldn't pick jobs that are supposed to go around fixing things, no sir.

[Amelius]

Steelpoint, you have failed to respond to a difficult post, and instead are sticking to the fairly ridiculous below argument.

The intent behind restricting their access to antag roles is to drive those players into other jobs and the accompanying responsibility.

If people aren't having fun playing a job with responsibilities, which they aren't, then by forcing them into a position of responsibility (which you would be), they'll naturally eschew their duties and go about normally. A common response would be b-but we don't want those players!, but the problem is not with most of the players, but with the jobs themselves. Many thrust repetitive, dull tasks upon you, that you are obligated to do round-to-round, forever, as that role unless antagonist (please see my former post). The result is that much of the veteran playerbase moves to a job with no obligations instead, where they can do their own thing, as a simple reaction. Instead of the polled change, lower antag chance for the following round for people who want to AFK or suicide if you want to quell that, but don't touch equal-opportunity antag chance.

Fix antag rolls before role rolls, and you'll have a fully-staffed, competent security team out of nowhere, along with Captain and HoS always filled. As previously listed, validhunting is one of the few ways of having fun past the learning-phase, and there's a reason that in non-rev rounds, you tend to have 1-2 starting guards and 4+ enlistees, HoS/HoP-willing, early on.

Add ways for people to express themselves creatively through the game, role to role. I keep citing it, and I prefer the community, interface, and tickrate here, than on goon, but http://wiki.ss13.co/Mechanic is a fantastic example of what a fun job should be.

[Scott]

Even when I do choose assistant, I go around fixing things.

Obviously you shouldn't pick jobs that are supposed to go around fixing things, no sir.

Obviously I was playing this game wrong all along and you are the only person who knows how to play.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

You are complaining about something and when offered a solution you go all "you can't tell me what to do".

[cedarbridge]

You are complaining about something and when offered a solution you go all "you can't tell me what to do".

The irony of somebody using "autistic" as an insult and then doing this fascinates me.

[tunderchief]

Even when I do choose assistant, I go around fixing things.

Obviously you shouldn't pick jobs that are supposed to go around fixing things, no sir.

Obviously I was playing this game wrong all along and you are the only person who knows how to play.

If your sole excuse for playing Assistant nonstop is 'I like to fix things' when there is an entire dedicated department of the goddamned station that exists for the sole purpose of fixing and maintaining things, then yes, I would have to agree that you have been playing this game wrong the whole time.

Assistants were not created to be jack of all trades, master of none, or Griff McWandermaintandvalidhunt. They are meant to be an easy way for new players to ease into the feel of SS13 in general, and the culture of each different server community, without the stress of expectation. If you roll Assistant as your regular job after more than a few months of playing the game, you are abusing the simplified status of Assistants, and there needs to be some mechanism to kick you out of the nest into the real game that is jobs on the station.

[bandit]

Even when I do choose assistant, I go around fixing things.

Obviously you shouldn't pick jobs that are supposed to go around fixing things, no sir.

Atmos techs are expected to know how to into atmos and CE is expected to know how to into atmos, how to fix tcomms, and a lot of other things besides. They aren't good jobs to pick just because "you want to fix things."

As for engineer, setting up the singlo is one of the most tedious fucking things in the game and sometimes you just don't want to be bothered. SS13 is a game, and the purpose of a game is to have fun. Therefore, a person who wants to fix things but doesn't want to have to go through roundstart tedium should not roll engineer. Why does it suddenly make a person shit to point this out?

[Steelpoint]

Steelpoint, you have failed to respond to a difficult post, and instead are sticking to the fairly ridiculous below argument.

The intent behind restricting their access to antag roles is to drive those players into other jobs and the accompanying responsibility.

If people aren't having fun playing a job with responsibilities, which they aren't, then by forcing them into a position of responsibility (which you would be), they'll naturally eschew their duties and go about normally. A common response would be b-but we don't want those players!, but the problem is not with most of the players, but with the jobs themselves. Many thrust repetitive, dull tasks upon you, that you are obligated to do round-to-round, forever, as that role unless antagonist (please see my former post). The result is that much of the veteran playerbase moves to a job with no obligations instead, where they can do their own thing, as a simple reaction. Instead of the polled change, lower antag chance for the following round for people who want to AFK or suicide if you want to quell that, but don't touch equal-opportunity antag chance.

Fix antag rolls before role rolls, and you'll have a fully-staffed, competent security team out of nowhere, along with Captain and HoS always filled. As previously listed, validhunting is one of the few ways of having fun past the learning-phase, and there's a reason that in non-rev rounds, you tend to have 1-2 starting guards and 4+ enlistees, HoS/HoP-willing, early on.

Add ways for people to express themselves creatively through the game, role to role. I keep citing it, and I prefer the community, interface, and tickrate here, than on goon, but http://wiki.ss13.co/Mechanic is a fantastic example of what a fun job should be.

I guess I missed your earlier response in the excitement of it all, I'll address it now.

While you do bring up a very good argument, in making other roles more appealing than making the Assistant unappealing. The fact of the matter is that it would be near impossible if not at least a massive undertaking in order to do what you described. In addition I don't actually think the situation with most station jobs is negative, while the roles do get repetitive over time, this is not necessarily a bad thing as it allows players to quickly finish their duties and get to their own thing, or prepare for when something requires their attention.

New additions to station roles comes slowly and over time as people code and implement these changes, there is always something new on the horizon. But Assistants are one of the only constants, since they do nothing nothing new is really given to them, the only thing I can recall that was given to Assistants in recent memory were the Assistant Formal Suits in the locker room.

But the problem is if you give Assistants responsibilities, a department and a head then you essentially remove the whole point of the Assistant role, a beginner role and a slack off role.

Introducing a similar job role, like Goon's mechanic, that has responsibilities but is more so Assistant+ might be a good way to go in addition to a assistant antag nerf. A Mechanic would still have some responsibilities, though not as much as other station roles. In addition to having a head to adhere to and a central area to congregate.

[kosmos]

Atmos techs are expected to know how to into atmos and CE is expected to know how to into atmos, how to fix tcomms, and a lot of other things besides. They aren't good jobs to pick just because "you want to fix things."

As for engineer, setting up the singlo is one of the most tedious fucking things in the game and sometimes you just don't want to be bothered. SS13 is a game, and the purpose of a game is to have fun. Therefore, a person who wants to fix things but doesn't want to have to go through roundstart tedium should not roll engineer. Why does it suddenly make a person shit to point this out?

One could still definitely join as an assistant and "fix things" if setting up the singulo (5-10 minutes of work for the good of everybody else on the station for the rest of the 40-90 minute round) is really too much to be asked from someone, setting assistant to no-antag wouldn't affect this in any way.

Obviously I was playing this game wrong all along and you are the only person who knows how to play.

The beauty of the game is the freedom how you can play it, but there is a way, the tgstation-style, how it's meant to be played. This is why we have rules, to try to balance out the fun for everybody and not just have everyone go full murderspree because they find it fun.

The assistants right now are not in balance with the rest of the game, they're giving nothing to the game, only taking antag-slots or being bored and stealing things. It would only be a fair trade for them to get nothing in return for giving nothing, thus encouraging people to actually play the game and not just play YOUR game.

[Amelius]

The assistants right now are not in balance with the rest of the game, they're giving nothing to the game, only taking antag-slots or being bored and stealing things. It would only be a fair trade for them to get nothing in return for giving nothing, thus encouraging people to actually play the game and not just play YOUR game.

Premise: Assistants are not in balance with the rest of the game.
Supporting opinion: They give nothing to the game, and they only steal things.
Evidence that supports the opinion: None provided.

All you stated was an opinion full of biased assumptions. Not all assistants are kleptomaniacs. Many are, but perhaps that is because assistants are a popular role, therefore there are more kleptomaniacs, even if there is the same proportion as in other roles, and so you irrationally believe that most assistants are kleptomaniacs. The 'grey tide' phenomenon is easily explained through this mode. Similarly regarded to the opinion that they 'give nothing to the game', where many assistants do create maintenance bases, populate the bar, create and participate in fighting rings, build shops, help or hinder antagonists, etc., and can also be explained by the aforementioned process. It's not fair, or anywhere near fair to whitewash every assistant, which you are.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Atmos techs are expected to know how to into atmos and CE is expected to know how to into atmos, how to fix tcomms, and a lot of other things besides. They aren't good jobs to pick just because "you want to fix things."

Sure and RD is expected to know R&D perfectly and CMO to mix chems with closed eyes. Doesn't mean they actually do it.

As for engineer, setting up the singlo is one of the most tedious fucking things in the game and sometimes you just don't want to be bothered. SS13 is a game, and the purpose of a game is to have fun. Therefore, a person who wants to fix things but doesn't want to have to go through roundstart tedium should not roll engineer. Why does it suddenly make a person shit to point this out?

This is blatant lie, it takes from 10 seconds if you have a full team of engineers and can leave other shit to them to about 3 minutes if you're completely alone.

Guess what, it takes less time than to loot maint as greyshirt, since you come with all tools and equipment you need instantly.

Amelius, seriously? You are going to play "you can't prove anything" card?

[kosmos]

Premise: Assistants are not in balance with the rest of the game.
Supporting opinion: They give nothing to the game, and they only steal things.
Evidence that supports the opinion: None provided.

All you stated was an opinion full of biased assumptions. Not all assistants are kleptomaniacs. Many are, but perhaps that is because assistants are a popular role, therefore there are more kleptomaniacs, even if there is the same proportion as in other roles, and so you irrationally believe that most assistants are kleptomaniacs. The 'grey tide' phenomenon is easily explained through this mode.

You're right, not all assistants are shit. The only proof I have is my experience as a security officer, where I've only encountered the shitler-type of assistants. The quieter types of assistants of course go easily unnoticed.

Similarly regarded to the opinion that they 'give nothing to the game', where many assistants do create maintenance bases, populate the bar, create and participate in fighting rings, build shops, help or hinder antagonists, etc., and can also be explained by the aforementioned process. It's not fair, or anywhere near fair to whitewash every assistant, which you are.

This is beside my point. What I meant was that assistants don't give anything near of the same importance as other departments.
Engineers give power to the station, yay, they deserve antag.
Scientists make all machines much more efficient, antag for them as well.
Everybody else has to do some kind of work for it. Except assistants.
Also, it wouldn't even be removing the possibility of those nice assistant-things. An assistant can continue to make his base after this change, the only change would be that someone else who actually contributed to the station would get the antag-role instead.

[Amelius]

Also, it wouldn't even be removing the possibility of those nice assistant-things. An assistant can continue to make his base after this change, the only change would be that someone else who actually contributed to the station would get the antag-role instead.

Are you claiming that doing anything other than drudgery is considered 'not contributing to the station'? Making a maintenance fortress contributes to the overall station, surely, and deserves an antag token as much, if not more than the people who are just mindlessly doing the same thing as they do every round. Variety and creativity make rounds memorable, not typicality. You favor the latter, for some nebulous reason, and I the former.

Amelius, seriously? You are going to play "you can't prove anything" card?

No, I'm playing the 'you're making a claim and failed to provide proof, so therefore it can be discarded without proof, but I provided an argument against it anyway to squash this notion'-card.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Premise: Assistants are not in balance with the rest of the game.
Supporting opinion: They give nothing to the game, and they only steal things.
Evidence that supports the opinion:

Not all assistants are kleptomaniacs. Many are

See, even you agree. Further,

but perhaps that is because assistants are a popular role, therefore there are more kleptomaniacs, even if there is the same proportion as in other roles, and so you irrationally believe that most assistants are kleptomaniacs. The 'grey tide' phenomenon is easily explained through this mode

'you're making a claim and failed to provide proof, so therefore it can be discarded without proof'

Moreover,

Similarly regarded to the opinion that they 'give nothing to the game', where many assistants do create maintenance bases, populate the bar, create and participate in fighting rings, build shops, help or hinder antagonists, etc., and can also be explained by the aforementioned process. It's not fair, or anywhere near fair to whitewash every assistant, which you are.

This is not contributing to the round, this is doing something that is not directly harmful to other players. You can build bases however you please, 95% of the crew will not know or care absolute most of the time. That can also be indirectly harmful actually, because you take resources to build your own things in maintenance, while somebody else could be looking for those resources to fix a hull breach, for example.

That is not to mention that your logic is flawed in the very essence, because the problem is not that assistants never contribute anything to the round, we just have too many assistants due to the design flaw. We want to fix this design flaw. Fixing it will not in any way prevent assistants who are willing to contribute from doing so.

[MisterPerson]

I think we need to sit back and decide what role we want assistants to fill. Newbie training job? No responsibility observer? No responsibility but still useful and effective helper? Overflow role for when everything else is taken and there's nothing better to give out?

[Alex Crimson]

I think we need to sit back and decide what role we want assistants to fill. Newbie training job? No responsibility observer? No responsibility but still useful and effective helper? Overflow role for when everything else is taken and there's nothing better to give out?

I see no reason it cannot be all of the above. Its the blank-canvas role that can be whatever the player wants it to be. Unfortunately its because of some players being assholes that Assistant gets a bad rep.

Just lower their chances for antag. I see no downside with that solution.

[N.A.N.B.]

I have a particularly outlandish idea to solve this issue with the new players joining ill-fitting positions, and not knowing what they have to do. Why not have timelocks on each position on-station?

Players that have just joined will only have janitor, assistant, librarian, and all those other unimportant positions available right away. On start-up, they could also get a prompt telling them the basics on how to play the game. As they play more on /tg/, they'd be able to join as more important positions, but this doesn't stop them from getting access from the HoP. If there are players who know how the game works, then they can adminhelp, and have the locked positions opened up for them. Antags would be the same, with the extremely simple ones, like tator or rev unlocked right away, and the rest, like cultist or nukeop, accessible after some time. The antag roles should probably have prompts as well, telling them how to play each role, ala Goon. The problem, however, is that it might deter new players, seeing roles that they'd like locked out for now, but I think that decrease is worth it for less shitty players in head positions and the like.

We shouldn't have to increase or decrease or remove anything from assistants, 'cause that's dumb. It should be accessible to everyone, but new players should stick to the job til they get the hang of /tg/station and SS13 in general.

[Scott]

I think we need to sit back and decide what role we want assistants to fill. Newbie training job? No responsibility observer? No responsibility but still useful and effective helper? Overflow role for when everything else is taken and there's nothing better to give out?

I see no reason it cannot be all of the above. Its the blank-canvas role that can be whatever the player wants it to be. Unfortunately its because of some players being assholes that Assistant gets a bad rep.

Just lower their chances for antag. I see no downside with that solution.

That will solve nothing.

[Alex Crimson]

I think we need to sit back and decide what role we want assistants to fill. Newbie training job? No responsibility observer? No responsibility but still useful and effective helper? Overflow role for when everything else is taken and there's nothing better to give out?

I see no reason it cannot be all of the above. Its the blank-canvas role that can be whatever the player wants it to be. Unfortunately its because of some players being assholes that Assistant gets a bad rep.

Just lower their chances for antag. I see no downside with that solution.

That will solve nothing.

What makes you say that?

[Scott]

There are a lot of responsibility free jobs.

[Alex Crimson]

The RP jobs, even if you combine them all, still get outnumbered by the amount of people playing Assistant. Something needs to be done to reduce the over saturation of Assistants-to-actual job slots taken. Greatly reducing their chance to get antag seems to be a good start.

[Raven776]

The only problem I can see with this is in long rounds with an incompetent or uncaring HoP that doesn't open up more slots. If all the traitors or antags are caught, murdered, borged, or otherwise removed from the round, it'd make the assistants spawning in very unlikely to be the new traitor the station needs to die.

Otherwise, it's a role that's most obviously of little responsibility and has had numerous problems. People that are just here to fix things or RP? They're fine, and I don't think they'd care too much for a lesser but still possible chance of antag. The greytiding shitlers? I think they'll flock to other jobs first and then to assistant and be complete and utterly useless shit's anyways, but at least some of them will do other jobs.

A great way to deal with the greytide problem is to open up more avenues for sec to deal with it. Chasing around some asshole greyshirt isn't really worth the trouble, and a single toolboxed assistant can do more damage in thirty seconds than an engineer can repair in thirty seconds. It's not hard to come by insulated gloves in even the most populated round if you're willing to get shocked a bit, talk to Cargo (and bring them crates), or stunprod an engineer and steal them.

And the worst part is, for doing any of these things, it's a three or four minute brig sentence at the best, and you have to babysit the assistant if there's no warden and RP with them if they talk because god forbid you're security who doesn't say a word as you throw the asshole who just exposed chemical to hallway walk-ins or stole all of botany's weed.

Any crime between three and six minutes, I won't pursue unless they're dumb enough to hold still as I taze them. Any three minute or below crime (breaking and entering to departments) why would I even bother? They'll likely be gone by the time I get there, it's more likely I'll get swarmed by greyshirts walking back to the brig (and nothing elicits cries of 'shitcurity' more than opening taser fire on people in the hallway), and then I have to sit around and watch this person as they start yelling shitcurity over comms.

It makes me wish security could still be antags because then at least they'd yell 'sec rogue' which lets me permabrig them under the ruleset.

[Scott]

Either you people are blowing this whole greytide business out of proportion or Sybil has no admins at all times to deal with these fabled rampaging assistants.

[Alex Crimson]

Either you people are blowing this whole greytide business out of proportion or Sybil has no admins at all times to deal with these fabled rampaging assistants.

I agree with you there, kinda. I do not think the greytide is anywhere near as bad as people like to pretend. Anyone who griefs as an Assistant is usually dealt with pretty quickly in my experience. But that still does not chance the fact that Assistants usually form a large chunk of the stations population even when other job slots are available.

[MedicInDisquise]

I completely agree with Amelius about 2 things:

We need a job like Mechanics that are essentially Assistants 2.0 (NOT Greytide 2.0!)

And that Assistants are a Blank Canvas Job, which means they should have some things added to them (with caution ofc) instead of removed.

Not much we can do about the former immediately, but we can do things about the latter.

1: Remove some of the more RP oriented jobs such as Lawyer, Chaplain, and Librarian, and give the assistants access or make it public access. I can see problems with the Chaplain, but the Lawyer and Librarian are essentially Greytide 2.0 without maintenance.

2: Make certain things in Maintenance such as Ghetto Toxins in engineering and Break Area above the Chaplain either documented on the wiki or publicly known.

3: Give the Assistants more clothing options. More suits! Labcoats! Give them the Department Bands like security on start and give them access to that department and radio. (which gives them the ability to be useful to the game while not removing the non-responsibility of the job itself, while stopping them from breaking in everywhere to get a medkit or insulated gloves. This also allows assistants to learn about a department without having total responsibility.)

[MisterPerson]

There is no functional difference between an assistant with medical access and a medical doctor. Why not just uncap medical doctor slots in that case?

[MedicInDisquise]

There is a difference between an assistant with medical access and a medical doctor. One has the responsibility to heal people and set up cyro. The other only has the ability to heal people and set up cyro. Saying an assistant with medical access is basically a doctor is like saying Security Officers with medical access is basically a doctor with a taser. Security Officers only have the ability to heal and set up cyro; their main responsibility is stopping Antags and keeping order on the station.

While I would not be opposed to uncapping the basic jobs, it would still be pushing someone who does not want to have responsibility into a job that has responsibilities if we capped assistants. Giving assistants access to one department and radio gives them the ability to:

1. Actually assist.

2. Give them some extra tools at the start for the Fuckoffintomaitenence Assistants.

3. Give them the ability to learn about a department for new players.

[tunderchief]

I completely agree with Amelius about 2 things:

We need a job like Mechanics that are essentially Assistants 2.0 (NOT Greytide 2.0!)

And that Assistants are a Blank Canvas Job, which means they should have some things added to them (with caution ofc) instead of removed.

Not much we can do about the former immediately, but we can do things about the latter.

1: Remove some of the more RP oriented jobs such as Lawyer, Chaplain, and Librarian, and give the assistants access or make it public access. I can see problems with the Chaplain, but the Lawyer and Librarian are essentially Greytide 2.0 without maintenance.

2: Make certain things in Maintenance such as Ghetto Toxins in engineering and Break Area above the Chaplain either documented on the wiki or publicly known.

3: Give the Assistants more clothing options. More suits! Labcoats! Give them the Department Bands like security on start and give them access to that department and radio. (which gives them the ability to be useful to the game while not removing the non-responsibility of the job itself, while stopping them from breaking in everywhere to get a medkit or insulated gloves. This also allows assistants to learn about a department without having total responsibility.)

This idea of 'giving them more freedom will fix things!' is utterly contrite. This isn't a game about special snowflakes who can multitask whatever jobs they want as they please. it's a space station role playing game. If you want responsibility, you pick a role with responsibility, don't just break into whichever department you want or assume the responsibility of a preexisting Department while Assistant. Additionally Antag should be available only to those who take such responsibility. Giving Assistants MORE will mean that even more players will go Assistant to avoid having to do a single job while having whatever access they want. They need to be kneecapped so that more people decide that actual station jobs are more worthy.

Additionally, the people who SHOULD be playing Assistant, namely new players, don't belong anywhere near an Antag role while they are developing the basic skills required to perform essential actions.

I want ADHD kids born in the 90s who can't handle single roles and need their special snowflake characters to leave.

[kosmos]

The main problem, how I see it, is not the greytide. It's that just yesterday I saw 7 assistants joining at round start and 0 engineers. It should be vice versa and situations like these cause problems and are not fun for anyone when the power starts failing with 0 engineers or someone is mugging someone with 0 security to protect or someone ded and no one to operate medbay.

1. More administration & harsher punishments for greytiding --> less greytide, possibly raises double-standard situations when an assistant gets banned for something when a medical doctor did the same and got nothing.

2. Lessening the antag-possibility --> less antag-players willing to play assistant, maybe they could even actually start taking other jobs and being useful. Or in the worst scenario, more engineers (and others) fucking off before setting up the engine, solvable through administration perhaps?

3. Less access (maint access removed) --> less antaghunters wandering maint, maybe encourages them to even take up security jobs instead of assistant. Possibly also makes assistants hack into the maint more (dunno whether this is too bad, or just a few hacked doors here and there).

These most popular suggestions would have no downsides from the perspective of "the good assistant" which all you guys against this are referring to. The guy could still hang out at the bar and RP or whatever how much he ever pleases.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

We already have timelocks on important positions.

Not much we can do about the former immediately, but we can do things about the latter.

1: Remove some of the more RP oriented jobs such as Lawyer, Chaplain, and Librarian, and give the assistants access or make it public access. I can see problems with the Chaplain, but the Lawyer and Librarian are essentially Greytide 2.0 without maintenance.

2: Make certain things in Maintenance such as Ghetto Toxins in engineering and Break Area above the Chaplain either documented on the wiki or publicly known.

3: Give the Assistants more clothing options. More suits! Labcoats! Give them the Department Bands like security on start and give them access to that department and radio. (which gives them the ability to be useful to the game while not removing the non-responsibility of the job itself, while stopping them from breaking in everywhere to get a medkit or insulated gloves. This also allows assistants to learn about a department without having total responsibility.)

...and what would giving assistants MORE shit solve?

Giving assistants access to one department and radio gives them the ability to:

1. Actually assist.

2. Give them some extra tools at the start for the Fuckoffintomaitenence Assistants.

3. Give them the ability to learn about a department for new players.

1. Trust me, nobody fucking needs assistants stealing gear to "assist". Seriously, assistance is only needed in like genetics and that's about it.

2. This will just make more people go assistant

3. We got wiki and plenty of players who are willing to teach, as well as ahelp. Not to mention in game guide books.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

I completely agree with Amelius about 2 things:

We need a job like Mechanics that are essentially Assistants 2.0 (NOT Greytide 2.0!)

And that Assistants are a Blank Canvas Job, which means they should have some things added to them (with caution ofc) instead of removed.

Not much we can do about the former immediately, but we can do things about the latter.

1: Remove some of the more RP oriented jobs such as Lawyer, Chaplain, and Librarian, and give the assistants access or make it public access. I can see problems with the Chaplain, but the Lawyer and Librarian are essentially Greytide 2.0 without maintenance.

2: Make certain things in Maintenance such as Ghetto Toxins in engineering and Break Area above the Chaplain either documented on the wiki or publicly known.

3: Give the Assistants more clothing options. More suits! Labcoats! Give them the Department Bands like security on start and give them access to that department and radio. (which gives them the ability to be useful to the game while not removing the non-responsibility of the job itself, while stopping them from breaking in everywhere to get a medkit or insulated gloves. This also allows assistants to learn about a department without having total responsibility.)

This idea of 'giving them more freedom will fix things!' is utterly contrite. This isn't a game about special snowflakes who can multitask whatever jobs they want as they please. it's a space station role playing game. If you want responsibility, you pick a role with responsibility, don't just break into whichever department you want or assume the responsibility of a preexisting Department while Assistant. Additionally Antag should be available to those who take responsibility. Giving Assistants MORE will mean that even more players will go Assistant to avoid having to do a single job while having whatever access they want. They need to be kneecapped so that more people decide that actual station jobs are more worthy.


I want ADHD kids born in the 90s who can't handle single roles and need their special snowflake characters to leave.

Yeah this is just nonsense, we need any edge we can get for people to prefer being ANYTHING but assistant. Assistant is that role you're shoved in where all the slots are full, and you should hope to get borged or promoted by the HoP.
If any extra "stuff" is added it should benefit the existing departments.

[Scott]

The main problem, how I see it, is not the greytide. It's that just yesterday I saw 7 assistants joining at round start and 0 engineers. It should be vice versa and situations like these cause problems and are not fun for anyone when the power starts failing with 0 engineers or someone is mugging someone with 0 security to protect or someone ded and no one to operate medbay.

1. More administration & harsher punishments for greytiding --> less greytide, possibly raises double-standard situations when an assistant gets banned for something when a medical doctor did the same and got nothing.

2. Lessening the antag-possibility --> less antag-players willing to play assistant, maybe they could even actually start taking other jobs and being useful. Or in the worst scenario, more engineers (and others) fucking off before setting up the engine, solvable through administration perhaps?

3. Less access (maint access removed) --> less antaghunters wandering maint, maybe encourages them to even take up security jobs instead of assistant. Possibly also makes assistants hack into the maint more (dunno whether this is too bad, or just a few hacked doors here and there).

These most popular suggestions would have no downsides from the perspective of "the good assistant" which all you guys against this are referring to. The guy could still hang out at the bar and RP or whatever how much he ever pleases.

So pick Engineering yourself, mate.

[omnitricks]

Snip

Go back to Bay where they enforce you playing your role as it should be you psychotic bomber. You're just trying to push this through so you have more chances to get antag when scientist to valid your bombs.

But in all seriousness, nothing is stopping anyone from joining another non assistant job (engineering for example) and get better equipment before running off and doing the grey stuff more effectively, without being suspected because they are wearing a greyshirt. Pretty much the MINIMAL thing you have to do in each department can be done in 5 minutes before you start running off on your own devices.

With that pointed out, I'd rather have players that actually WANT to do the job and WANT to do it PROPERLY to be playing it rather than people being forced into it because of nonsense like this being pushed through.

Also I've seen assistants that was way more useful than any crewmembers on the station that think whatever it is they want to do is more important than what you need. Need something fixed? That assistant with the full toolbelt is more likely to fix that "minor" damage than the engineer that only wants to do the hull breach. Corpses? Assistants bring them to medbay for you especially since they are prowling around maint already and that is why they do cloning in genetics as well. Not because they are "assisting" for the sake of it as you claim. And assistants are the jobs that are considered so expendable your jobs can also use them if you ever bother to get one to help you (e.g. telescience monkey, genetics monkey, crate monkey, etc.)

Uncapping doctors will also cause a lot more trouble than you think. Most departments function on a specific number of personnel because any more it will be overcrowded. You don't really need more than two techs jerking off in cargo to pull crates and sort trash. Same with medbay. You don't actually even need more than three doctors to use the machines on everyone that comes in. Robotics and genetics is unusable for a third person due to insufficient equipment, telescience only works for one, etc.

Bla bla bla. All your suggestions to "fix" assistants seem to be more of rushed ideas you put forth without thinking through in order to just take away whatever little assistants have for no actual reason whatsoever.

[Steelpoint]

Biggest difference is people take note of a random Engineer or Medical Doctor running around doing suspicious activities, whereas Assistants get very little heat aside from the occasionally astute Security Officer.

Also once again, removal or reduction in Assistant antag chance does not do anything to remove or alter the role of the Assistant at all. Literally nothing aside from getting antag status, which is not apart of any station role to begin with, is changed. You can still run around making Maint Forts, you can still fix things, drag people to medbay or grey tide and valid hunt. You just don't get the chance, or same chance, to be selected for antagonist.

The only thing these arguments are saying to me is that the removal of Assistant Antag renders the Assistant role useless. Which reinforces the argument to remove it.

[Arete]

Social games like SS13 work because everyone goes into it agreeing that they'll do their part to make the game fun for everyone else. People choose a job, and if they do that job badly, they get job banned. Assistants don't have any responsibilities. The rules say that they can do whatever they want, and so they often choose to do things that don't make for a fun time for everyone else. To solve that problem without punishing assistants who are actually helpful, assistants should be held to a higher standard. Nonantags might have conflict with each other when both are trying to serve their departments, but an assistant should never cause a conflict with someone who actually has a specific job. Basically, the bit about assistants having to answer to absolutely everyone should actually be enforced, with brig time and job bans if necessary, because an assistant who causes trouble is not assisting.

Regarding people not wanting to pick a job for the whole round, I don't think anyone should be exempt from all accountability. If you want to wait until the round has started to decide what you want your project for the round to be, then go to the HoP and actually get a job change.

Regarding antag stuff, there's nothing worse than a player who picks a job and doesn't actually do that job until he gets antag. I think atmos techs and scientists are probably a bigger problem there than assistants, though.

[Scott]

The rules say that they can do whatever they want,

That's not even remotely true.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

The rules say that they can do whatever they want,

That's not even remotely true.

What is not true that defeats the point and not the wording?

[cedarbridge]

The rules say that they can do whatever they want,

That's not even remotely true.

You'll find that people might actually take your arguments more seriously if you actually made them instead of tossing out one-line declarations. As it is now, assistants have no "purpose" other than to soak up overflow and wander maint. So essnetially, yes they can do whatever because they have no obligations. Which is kinda the point. The problem is, it doesn't function as an overflow in practice 90%+ of the time.

[Cipher3]

Why not just

You are the Assistant.
As the Assistant you answer directly to absolutely everyone. Special circumstances may change this.

Enforce things that already exist?

[paprika]

because that relies on having good admins

which we don't

at all

[Arete]

Why not just

You are the Assistant.
As the Assistant you answer directly to absolutely everyone. Special circumstances may change this.

Enforce things that already exist?

The wiki says pretty much the opposite of that.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

Yeah i don't think i ever got an assistant to follow any orders that they didn't want to do in the first place.