Move captain's spare ID to captain's locker

[Slignerd]

Personally I think moving the spare ID to the captain's locker would be a good way to cut down on omnipotent all access "greytide", since honestly, it's just too much power to get right away, the moment you hack or emag two to three airlocks.

Placing it inside a locker would make it harder to acquire a bit less of "whoever grabs it first". Locker can still be stolen and smacked open with a fireaxe - so it's still available to a dedicated enough greyshirt or a head of staff. But much like my suggestion regarding suit storage units, I believe acquiring items of such importance, and such potential to mess with the round as a whole should require some effort.

[Anonmare]

Slig, m8, I don't think that's gonna work cause you need captain access to open the locker to get the captain access ID.

[Slignerd]

It's captain's spare, not an assistant's. Unless someone opens it with force, or a synthetic unit unlocks it, it's up to the captain to unleash it upon the world.

[John_Oxford]

heres how little this is going to do

if you have a emag, you now have to emag one more airlock, windoor, and locker and will also have access to his sword, body armor, headset, and door remote

if you don't have a emag, you now have to climb one table, hack one more door, and break open a locker (which is ungodly easy) and additionally gives you access to his sword, body armor, headset, and door remote.

-10/10 oxford not approve

[Slignerd]

You bring up a good point, it's still quite feasible - and that's exactly why I believe it's a balanced solution.

You're just more likely to get noticed during the process, with more time for someone to intervene, and less of an incentive to do it every round. If you believed the point was to make captain's spare completely unavailable, then I believe you missed it entirely - like I said, it's just to make the ID require more effort to get.

Honestly, I don't even understand your reasoning here. It's basically:

> this idea to make getting captain's spare ID harder to get doesn't make it hard enough
> therefore I don't approve of making it harder than it is now

??

[oranges]

if it bother syou that much just put it in there yourself

[FantasticFwoosh]

Just borrow the captains fire axe to break the captains door & secure the captains locker by turning it into metal shreds.

This would have worked a year ago prior to the damage PR. But not now.

[Slignerd]

Just borrow the captains fire axe to break the captains door & secure the captains locker by turning it into metal shreds.

This would have worked a year ago prior to the damage PR. But not now.

Where were you when I explained that the point is to make it require more effort than snatching it off the table... but still viable in case there's no HoP or Captain? You know, right there in the OP, and just in my previous post here?

Seriously guys, I'm starting to get worried about you. It's like you can't even read.

[FantasticFwoosh]

You can't even think because ID is worthless now but you're living ala-circa 2015 when security and impassible barriers of lockers that super-actually meant something and needed ID to even open.

Nobody cares if they are seen taking it, its only a IC circumstance people consider which most of the time security will be dead/occupied validhunting for antags to actually watch whether a ID get swiped besides for the most dedicated brown-noses in sec and the crew

> Guilty as charged of not reading, but proofreading it now if you actually said anything at all to make it secure that doesn't involve a damage system then id listen wholeheartedly, instead of waving it off as "PLAYERS HAVE CONCIOUSNESS TO CRIME, PLAYERS WILL INTERVENE AND DEFEND THE STATION AND HAVE A GOOD MORAL STANDING WITH SECURITY" based off nothing but assumption.

Everyones going to loot the shit out of captains office anyway like they do now every single time its bust open for whatever reason because the id is straight up better.

---

Short period of Sniper Rifle ID's courtesy of a Kor mental breakdown was the best implementation of ID we ever had, with the HOP having a HUGE cache of ammo giving it out over the counter.

[Slignerd]

Okay, what now.

Maybe it's unfair to me to say given what I said just before, but now you went and posted an unreadable rant.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Take the sunglasses off then dipstick. A eye retina scanner for only roundstart captains that involves stealing their eyes to access a unbreakable safe would be safer.

[Qbopper]

interesting idea, if someone wants the spare ID it would make them do a bit more work than "order the AI to open the doors to cap's office at round start" or something like that, and if someone REALLY needs it for a legitimate reason it's still obtainable with a little bit of effort

[FantasticFwoosh]

Or just smash down everything with the high force fire axe in bridge after slipping through into that area in any number of different ways.

> This will eternally overshadow anything not held in a deconstructable container, i've seen HOS's literally shoot the caps dividing door off just to get inside, and it just makes the HOP's walk to loot a the captains locker a bit more convenient.

[Slignerd]

Part of the game, Fwoosh. Part of the game. You can stop posting now.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Part of the game completely undermines this idea into irrelevance whenever its held on the grounds of security. You can't even defend it from your own heads, prior the HOP via id was the only person able to get into there without hacking legitimately, as the HOS naturally had no power.

Just watch Honkmaster doing his craft at about 2:00am in the afternoon GMT in his back to back assaults on the captains office to stress test whether moving the ID has absolutely ANY difference.

- Whoever owns the spare ID in lack of the presence of the captain IS the captain.

[Slignerd]

My suggestion is simply to ensure that if you want the ID illegitimately, you have to repeatedly smash a locker, which draws attention and takes time and effort. Do you believe that greyshirts should be able to just snatch captain's spare off the table like they currently do? If not, then what're you arguing about?

If your main argument is "people will get it anyway", then why do you even care one way or another?

[FantasticFwoosh]

I mean you can open a locker very simply with a chain-throwing a spear, you would not have to smash the locker for very long at all with the fire axe inside bridge twohanded, or if you smash the antique gun case first, shoot at the locker etc and go from there. (Non-antag)

The point of picking up the ID is irrelevant when the doors are neither a barrier either, especially when you know door wires & have tools just to be quieter. It was never a barrier before, the ID was the barrier to just stealing the captains locker. In which case in ye' olde spacemen simulation they use to run off with the locker and try to arrange to steal ID later. (under the circumstance the ID was already taken but atleast they can take the locker)

> Why do you even care securing it then? I just see this as a gross waste of your time on something you haven't considered properly by just thinking about for a second, taking account of the IC game situation then acting on there. If there's a brick wall, simply find a way through or around it.

- What you going to do? Pull a Phil and grudgecode it into the ground? "so nobody will ever abuse the exploitable system i made because people figured out that acid is really good, therefore im going to nerf acid really hard" i mean really if you really really care about putting the ID somewhere safe then i guess a non-destructible container like the UNBREAKABLE BUT STILL HACKABLE WALL SAFE IN THE SAME ROOM is safer.



*last time i checked the wall safe was unbreakable*

[Slignerd]

It's mostly dumbfounding to me that you force me to repeat that greyshirts are still supposed to be able to steal it with greater effort. Then you fail to register that and shout "guys, but greyshirts are still able to steal it!!" in four paragraphs.

Much like supermatter delaminating at 100 rather than 30, there is a difference to make here, and the existence of other theft methods is irrelevant if they take longer than pulsing and crowbaring three airlocks.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Why not just put it in the corridors then if its intended to be stolen, hacking the safe after breaking your way into captains office with a stethoscope if the safe was auto locked with a secret combination only the captain & HOS know (HOP doesn't need to know because they can print out a cap level id on the spot) from notes and/or other way of maintaining secrecy still takes as much time without shitty abusable mechanics.

- THE HOP CAN PRINT OUT A CAPTAIN LEVEL ID ON THE SPOT.

You're literally pining on them taking a long time to do this, when the surrounding and current tools that they have are more than sufficient for doing it fast enough to not get caught, its not slowing them down enough. Again if you want to be actually serious, raise the health of the captains locker and/or make it invunerable to damage though that's kind of a pointless thing to do because people will start hiding inside it like a nuclear bomb proof fridge.

[Cobby]

*last time i checked the wall safe was unbreakable*

The silver thing on the wall you put a custom code in?

Nah, you just have to screwdrive and multitool it [33% chance of working].

The last update for those things was from me and I made them unable to be emagged so you HAVE to do the low efficiency technique. They're really good, just no one uses them.

[FantasticFwoosh]

I mean structurally unbreakable from smashing it, hacking it low tech without using a stethoscope i guess is warranted slow enough.

[Slignerd]

Why not just put it in the corridors then if its intended to be stolen,

Why not make suppermatter explode at 1% instability, if it's meant to explode at all?

I mean structurally unbreakable from smashing it, hacking it low tech without using a stethoscope i guess is warranted slow enough.

You're confusing wall safe and vault safe.

[John_Oxford]

look at this way

getting the captains spare id is not a slider bar, its a [ ] NO [ ] YES prompt

put it inside of a 1x1 rwall room if you want to make it more difficult to get other than that this is just wasting peoples time who would otherwise take the effort to get it

[Slignerd]

this is just wasting peoples time who would otherwise take the effort to get it

Almost like that's exactly the point. Maybe even some greyshirts will choose not to bother. If you want absolute access to everywhere on the station, you really, really shouldn't complain when you need some time and effort to get it and that someone might have the time to stop you in the process. That's really all this is about.

Honestly, your and Fwoosh's reactions to this make no sense to me. You're strongly opposing my suggestion to make it more difficult, but not impossible, to get captain's spare, and you argue against it by saying it would still be possible...? Then what exactly do you guys want?

Do you want the ID less difficult to get? More difficult to get? If you really thought it made no difference either way, you wouldn't react so strongly to this. Do you just want to show the world how smart you are to know the ways to get the spare even if it's in the locker? Well, sorry to burst your bubble, that's nothing special at all. I just don't see the point you're trying to make.

[Qbopper]

I have oxford on foe so I didn't see his post but wow, is he really complaining about the suggestion "make the spare harder to get" making the spare harder to get?

You summed up why it should be considered pretty well, thankfully

[FantasticFwoosh]

Qbopper there's no logical difference to moving it around the captains quarters or even into the captains room if you put it inside a destructable container in order to make it more secure.

A locked case would be better, with the medals since that can't be directly bashed.

[Qbopper]

Qbopper there's no logical difference to moving it around the captains quarters or even into the captains room if you put it inside a destructable container in order to make it more secure.

A locked case would be better, with the medals since that can't be directly bashed.

Yes there is?

Bridge airlock > bridge airlock > captain's office > home free is less work than bridge airlock > bridge airlock > captain's office > captain's quarters > open up the locker > home free - you either need to bring an IED, which is noisy and dangerous, steal a gun to shoot it with, or grab the locker and run out of the bridge to somewhere safe where you can do whatever to open it.

It's objectively more secure than lying on a table behind 3 airlocks, what's the issue here

[FantasticFwoosh]

There is a high force fire axe on bridge & a gun in a glass case in the captains office (not to mention a portable teleporter in the next room behind on box) to finish that circuit with time to spare. Infact you could just teleport into the bridge & assault from the front if you wanted to

Either go round the back, grab hand tele, risk teleporting in and then remove the spear from your back slot and throw at the locker, grab ID and run out of there. Or slip into the bridge (any way you want) grab the axe, smash the dividing captains door, smash the gun cabinet (door wont lock behind you because its destroyed), shoot the door to the captains office, smash the locker.

Its a little bit longer but otherwise lying there in the open is the high force weapon. All that is needed to do is just smash down the dividing door from captains office to bridge and you can't be locked in. If things go awry, flush yourself down the disposals and smash the cargo office window with the axe.

Don't forget that engineers have full access to the APC's so if they can shut off local power (see hand teleporter or hacking into the main captain office) or harness the use of a power sink to depower the doors, all they need to do is lever in & smash the locker to get access.

[Qbopper]

There is a high force fire axe on bridge & a gun in a glass case in the captains office (not to mention a portable teleporter in the next room behind on box) to finish that circuit with time to spare. Infact you could just teleport into the bridge & assault from the front if you wanted to

Either go round the back, grab hand tele, risk teleporting in and then remove the spear from your back slot and throw at the locker, grab ID and run out of there. Or slip into the bridge (any way you want) grab the axe, smash the dividing captains door, smash the gun cabinet (door wont lock behind you because its destroyed), shoot the door to the captains office, smash the locker.

Its a little bit longer but otherwise lying there in the open is the high force weapon. All that is needed to do is just smash down the dividing door from captains office to bridge and you can't be locked in. If things go awry, flush yourself down the disposals and smash the cargo office window with the axe.

Don't forget that engineers have full access to the APC's so if they can shut off local power (see hand teleporter or hacking into the main captain office) or harness the use of a power sink to depower the doors, all they need to do is lever in & smash the locker to get access.

you just wrote an entire post proving my point for me

Having there be more effort required to steal the ID is a good thing, and all of these situations you describe are exactly what the point of the OP was - making it more interesting and difficult to obtain than it currently is

The current situation is "ask the AI to open the doors and take the ID off the table", or bar that, "hack through the teleporter/bridge and take the ID" with zero effort required beyond finding the power wire.

Your post is filled with much more unique and interesting solutions for stealing the spare ID and I really don't see why you think what you're saying proves us wrong

[FantasticFwoosh]

Its not any length of time longer though, its just tedious but it doesn't take a LONG time as a alternative mechanic rather than "Hit this until this is shreds, hit that until it tilts 180% the power of the weapon FORCE MULTIPLIES the ease of access in barging into there, a esword can cut through anything very easily"

> Edit omitted quotation, it was too mean.

They aren't unique at all, you can grief anything with a destrucable case open on the station just by CLICKING IT REPEATEDLY. I mean using the safe even with the 33% chance to open it with multitool & a screwdriver or using a stethoscope is a unique & interesting delay to just looting things because it has a mechanical order and a chance of working without actually having to access it the normal way.

[XDTM]

Yes, it's still possible to get. But it takes more time and makes more noise to do it, which may get you caught more often, unless you have specific, traitor-only gear like emags, which are not available to assistants who just rush cap's office as nonantags.

That's the point of the suggestion, which i do like.

[FantasticFwoosh]

You can just steal the locker after destroying or asking/ordering a borg to open doors and then destroy the locker in private, like maint or something much much more quietly.

Also cameras don't have ears, and realistically nobody but very dedicated camera cruisers ever watches cameras for this sort of crime. At best selfish assistants might try to intercept the thief to steal the PRIZE of the locker, not much different to a flash raid on arrivals security point = Smash the maint, grab the locker and enjoy free security equipment when you 'Crack the Nut'

That is all this approach is, you've just put the ID in a shell to be broken that of course is just going to be broke by a nut-cracker, there's no deterrant. Nothing.

[Slignerd]

Yes, we get it Fwoosh. You can steal the locker. Yes, we know. But say it again please. We didn't hear it the first time.

[FantasticFwoosh]

> "Meant to be stolen" = makes safer-not-actually-safer just another hurdle.

> "Yeah we hear you talking about the locker being stolen but we dont care"

Your mind seems pretty made up. I mean i have no pity or sympathy for you at all by this stage when this goes into implementation.

if it bother syou that much just put it in there yourself

[Slignerd]

It's just that I don't understand you. You want it to be safer, but you're getting angry that making it more secure than now doesn't make it secure enough? So because of that, you oppose making it more secure at all? Is this just some irrational "all or nothing" attitude, where you would have captain's spare start in the middle of the central hallway, or surrounded by indestructible walls, and nothing in between is acceptable? Do you oppose the ideas to make the ID more secure because they're not your ideas?

All your posts only reveal to me you haven't the faintest idea of game design - you expect everything to be foolproof even though making things overly foolproof is actually awful for balance. Then you go full retard and miss the very point of the spare's existence - suggesting to make it actually impossible to get it without Captain or HoP, while the very reason for its existence is to not have rounds screwed by lowpop, with no Captain or HoP.

You're making absolutely no sense, and you refuse, constantly refuse to understand anything said to you. You're arguing for the sake of it, making no actual point beyond "lalala, stop talking about ideas, I don't like it, I think it's all meaningless, but don't you dare actually go through with it under any circumstance" repeated over, and over, and over. It's just impossible to have any coherent discussion with you.

[FantasticFwoosh]

I never said it should be impossible to get, just that your change is trivial because i remember how much of a legitimate barrier lockers & sealed boxes used to be (no ID, UNOPENABLE), the only tools you need to retrieve anything is a double edged esword or object with similarly high force damage. I suggested in the thread moving it to something more mechanical like the safe we already have as a alternative that actually requires a TIME CONSUMING METHOD and can't be cheesed without tools.

> Accuse me of shitty game design, if thats so then we kind of average out against each other, Im listening intently to everything you are saying but you only ever have a singular point you are defending like its foolproof, i've tried explaining to you the different ways to get past it with past 2 dimensional thinking on WHAT IF scenarios and explaining the status-quo of the mechanics in which IF YOU HIT SHIT IT BREAKS AND BREAKS EVEN FASTER WITH STRONG OBJECTS IN THE ROOMS. I've said everything i need to.

I really don't have energy to argue with you anymore since you are definitely dead set on it. Pointless security change in something you can do yourself that could be done better if at all the primary concern was the safety of the ID. In my eyes in very plain terms you've put the ID in cardboard box without much further thought or planning, being with the rest of the objects isn't ideal either since its all your eggs in 1 basket unless you will want to post-pr spread them out.

Hell its even been mentioned that you could atleast make the cupboard static or more tough if you're going to bother making it so hard to get. If we can atleast settle on something we literally cannot listen to each other because it's been more than 4 posts of a nonstop shouting match.

Do you oppose the ideas to make the ID more secure because they're not your ideas?

I get told my ideas are bad every day, sometimes they are i can accept this fact, i like to stick to my guns but usually i take onboard some of the useful criticism and manufacture a better or tangental idea or recreation of it. Right now it seems like what you need for this is a active testmerge trial by fire to prove the point.

[Lazengann]

You underestimate how much of a deterrent being slightly more inconvenient can be

[FantasticFwoosh]

You underestimate how much of a deterrent being slightly more inconvenient can be

The ID's whole purpose is to be a anti-deterrent to the inconvenience of any door on the station, sec, command anything. (It's also bunged in with all the other things that can be coveted for convenience in the same locker)

That's a good point though.

---

BAM, on boxstation splash down two beakers of thermite in the captains regular wall bathroom & private room and break or acid the locker open. Don't forget weldering the walls down too if thats not too much mental gymnastics for a assistant after closing the hacked door behind them.

[Qbopper]

can we actually all just pretend fwoosh's posts don't exist

4 people have told him the same thing and he continues to ignore everyone

[FantasticFwoosh]

It could just be me, i did think about it and it does raise scenarios, perhaps what i am more resistant to is the thought is the promotion of griefy hit & run entry & exit approaches to stealing objects.

[John_Oxford]

if it doesn't greatly increase the difficultly of getting the spare then the change doesn't really have a affect on the actual situation, which means that it's a waste of everyones time

what's so hard to understand about that?

[John_Oxford]

I have oxford on foe so I didn't see his post but wow, is he really complaining about the suggestion "make the spare harder to get" making the spare harder to get?

You summed up why it should be considered pretty well, thankfully

also

>to much of a african american of lower socio-economical bracket to read my posts
>to thin skinned not to lose his fucking mind when i say something mildly aggressive

god forbid you spend a day outside, you autist

[Slignerd]

Your dumb "it makes no difference so pls don't do this" aside (as it was already refuted by Qbopper and myself numerous times), I don't see why you would ever think a wall safe is better at all - the way to hack it is "click repeatedly with multitool until it opens", and with 33% chance, it'll magically open itself at 3-4th try. How is it in any way more secure than a locker? Don't tell me that after all the "easy" scenarios you thought up, you're going to pretend that an assistant having a screwdriver and a multitool in their possession after already hacking open three airlocks is somehow a great challenge.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Its a mechanical change, numbers like on the locker can be changed but like the toolkit you need for the door, you need to get to the nitty gritty rather than being some barbarous greifer who hits everything in sight until it breaks. You need a tool to emag a locker open and break the ID lock on it in the first place.

Creative methods like using a stethoscope still applies for the larger safe.

- Trigger a alarm every time the person trying to hack the safe with a multitool fails using the very same security system for the glass case if you really need to go fishing for mechanical ideas. You can make it harder or easier as you wish. If anybody cares to come to its aid its another layer of security, if they get it on the first try then that's their prize without cheating.

A locker has a fixed HP, unless you change the said locker's statistics there is a science to how much damage it can take before it falls apart entirely that can be measured by the power of the weapon being used. Its guranteed to open for clicking it a lot with a appropriate tool, the wall safe WITH tool timers is better in that regard.

---

How is it safer than a locker

> Unbreakable, only two methods of access, hack (not hack apart) or type a code and open.

[XDTM]

Oxford, making something harder does deter some people from doing it. Just because something is possible doesn't mean someone will dedicate their time/risk being arrested for it. Some will, of course, but less. And that's the proper way, reducing greytiding, making little to no difference to traitors with the right equipment, without inconveniencing legit users (heads of staff who can just call a borg) AND still keeping stealing the spare a possible idea, if you want to commit to it.

[Qbopper]

does anyone ((that isn't oxford/fwoosh) have anything to say on the subject? could add this to my todo for stuff after the freeze, it's not a difficult change to try out

[PKPenguin321]

dont bother

[Slignerd]

What did he mean by this

[XDTM]

why not tho

[Qbopper]

dont bother

???