Addressing the stun meta

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Hikurac
 
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Addressing the stun meta

Postby Hikurac » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:54 am #317155

So here you are. Fully decked out in combat gear. A pulse rifle, hardsuit, combat jumpsuit, all of it. You feel like you can take on anything. Except a naked guy with cable cuffs and a taser just one-shotted you. The fight is over and you're done. Not 5 SMG rounds, not 4 stetchkin bullets, not 3 laser cannon hits, not even 2 pulse rifle blasts. Nope, just one, singular taser shot and you're out.

I don't expect a goon-style stun system, given that all weapons do less overall damage on goon. What I'm talking about is stun-cuffing and endless, no-way-out, stunlocking. I'm pretty sure the police baton didn't have much of a wait time before, but I know it has one now and it hasn't made a difference. The same old stun, drag, stun, rinse and repeat. They won't be able to get away, because the stun time is longer than the time it takes to get away, and you can also hit them with whatever in-between the delays. Same with the telescopic baton and stun baton. Just stun and drag, with hits in between. Nothing they can do about it. A stun should be just long enough to grab, pin, and cuff. The grabbing part would at least give them a second or two to think, along with an RNG chance of resisting out of it. I don't think that cuffing should require grabbing, like on bay, but I think it's ridiculous to allow the stun time to last longer than the cuffing time itself. The pay off of the current stun n' cuff method is too much for too little effort.

At the very least, the melee stuns have a risk. You may get disarmed and have that supreme advantage turned against you. However, that's not the case with the taser. I.e. you've got a guy on the very edge of your view range, just standing there. You think that he won't be a huge issue, because even if he has a gun, he'll probably only land a few rounds or so before you get away. Haha, NOPE! Two clicks, one to pull out the taser, then one on you. In no time flat, you're on the ground and he's casually walking over to cuff you, to drag you off to your inevitable demise. Oh silly you, don't you know? You're not supposed to stand next to people stand within people's view range. Don't worry, maybe you'll be more robust next time.



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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby ShadowDimentio » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:55 am #317156

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby kevinz000 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:03 am #317160

Two choices.
1. Acquire proficiency
2. Step up and overhaul something no one's been able to overhaul for the last 4? years.

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby ShadowDimentio » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:19 am #317172

Paprika got one step into the implementation of his stamina combat system before he burned out like a meteor and quit.

Stuns aren't going anywhere so get used to it.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby D&B » Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:10 am #317180

This thread again
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[20:26:02]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Welp. It was just a prank bro isn't a very good excuse when it comes to unprovoked nonantag murder, but since this is your first time doing it and you seem to understand the problem instead of a bannu I'm just going to leave you with a warning. Please PLEASE don't do this again in the future, as funny as crackhead broken bottle memes can be. Alrighty? Do you have any input on this?
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby Hikurac » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:18 am #317198

There's been four theads over a span of several years, according to the topic search. That's not much, considering how much people gripe about it.

I also wouldn't expect a complete rework of stuns into stamina depletion, because it's not really required.

The only thing I'm asking is that they not enable stunlocking or the no (reasonable) counter stun n' cuff:

* For tasers. Strongly diminishing stun time based on tazing distance. I single tase from across view range shouldn't drop anyone for than a couple seconds.

* Delay for the taser. It's a taser, not a crowd control weapon. This would also stop people from shooting at a distance with a diminished stun, then just immediately shooting again at a closer range for a longer stun before they get up (try quickly pulling out that baton instead).

* The stuns for melee weapons should be long enough to grab the person and cuff them. However, short enough that you can't just stun them, then stun them again before the even get a chance to stand. Stunlocking and/or cuffing leaves the target completely defenseless against whatever, for however long the other person feels like doing so. It probably shouldn't be low effort, high reward.

* The only exception to this would be the stun baton. You can stun as fast as you can click, but none of them should last long, and you're losing battery power with each swing.

As for any, "just git gud," comments, don't worry I already have! I found out that the only thing I needed to reliably counter the old stun n' cuff tactic was to have a meta buddy to give me cyborg arms and meth filled teeth near round start. Because why strive for balance when we can just powergame, amirite?

My point being that how "gud" a player might be, doesn't change the balance situation of the game. It's like me murderboning an entire crew with pre-nerf chloral and then saying it's fine, it's just that they needed to "git gud." And sure, they could all run around in hard suits, not coming near each other, "gitting gud," but none of that actually made pre-nerf chloral any less broken, balance-wise.

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby Steelpoint » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:52 am #317213

The singular issue you'll find with stuns is that there is no one, who has the coding proficiency, who is willing to step up and propose a overhaul to stun combat.

I think you'll find a lot of people would support a move away from one stun combat if a good alternative system was proposed.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby leibniz » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:00 am #317216

icepacks already come up with some solution, its in one of the 1000 other threads
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby imblyings » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:05 am #317217

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby kevinz000 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:17 pm #317220

if i see someone on meth resisting my stuns i'm not going to stop with just a stun :^)

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby oranges » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:26 pm #317223

ignore davy

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby Lazengann » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:03 pm #317228

Shooting a taser at someone should start a yugioh match to decide the winner of the fight

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby Limski » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:23 pm #317233

I don't think the stun meta will ever go away, It's what SS13 is about at this point and the only realistic choice is to balance it
... What if taser stun duration was decided by the distance between the source and the affected dude?

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby CPTANT » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:02 pm #317237

Steelpoint wrote:The singular issue you'll find with stuns is that there is no one, who has the coding proficiency, who is willing to step up and propose a overhaul to stun combat.

I think you'll find a lot of people would support a move away from one stun combat if a good alternative system was proposed.



I did do this, however the 2 shot taser wasn't given the chance it deserves.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby Hikurac » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:47 pm #317248

I don't think the stun meta will ever go away, It's what SS13 is about at this point and the only realistic choice is to balance it
... What if taser stun duration was decided by the distance between the source and the affected dude?


Yeah I agree. Diminishing stun time based on distance.

I did do this, however the 2 shot taser wasn't given the chance it deserves.


How did the two-shot taser work? Did the first shot just do a lot of stamina damage, with the second shot depleting the target, or something?

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby kevinz000 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:58 pm #317249

don't whine about security one hit stuns when antags have two hit crits.

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby John_Oxford » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:02 pm #317250

why not make tasers tethers that required a reload after every shot like current 2017 tasers do
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby kevinz000 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:06 pm #317251

because once again don't whine about security having one shot stuns when antags have items to stunbreak and two shot kills.

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby kevinz000 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:06 pm #317252

and unless you want to scrap every single conversion gamemode go throw out your "This is a taser not a crowd control device" argument too.

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby lzimann » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:21 pm #317256

kevinz000 wrote:and unless you want to scrap every single conversion gamemode go throw out your "This is a taser not a crowd control device" argument too.


That wouldn't be a bad thing.

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby CPTANT » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:38 pm #317258

kevinz000 wrote:don't whine about security one hit stuns when antags have two hit crits.


Look this is the mentality that deadlocked this entire debate for years.

Changes WILL have to trickle down if such a change is made.

But taking the FUNDAMENTAL step of removing 1 shot ranged stuns will provide a framework to balance the rest of the game.


1 hit ranged stun -> has to go.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby bman » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:46 pm #317259

You will fail to properly rectify this issue without an extensive rework of our combat.

My proposal, take it or leave it:

Spoiler:
My proposal for a long time now was the GoonStamina system being ported, it preserves the utility of stuns while not letting them dominate the game as they do in TG.
Goonstation Wiki wrote:Knockdowns, slips and stuns some times take a few seconds to go into effect. This period of almost-stun is weird. Blast damage can occasionally be out-run, items can occasionally be used, disposal diving may work. This is why you should approach stunned enemies with caution until you can be sure the stun is in effect for real. It is also quite normal that stunned people remain standing on their feet even if lost their items and can't move.

This is why even if you are stunned you are not helpless and can still come out on top, with a far greater chance of success than you'll ever have on TG's 1 hit GG.

In addition, if you are outnumbered by just one more person (with nowhere to run) you are very likely to lose even if you stun your opponents, this is something you will never see with our current system, where someone throws a flashbang in a room then clicks everyone with a baton once, and that's if they don't slide under your taser shot and deck you in the face, something you can do easier with goon's combat since resting and standing has a special "grace period" where you can move for a while.

The implications this has for melee is great, because attacking, defending, and being attacked all drain stamina; Combat on goon is a tiptoe of being smart enough not to overexhaust yourself while keeping an eye on your opponent to stop them for pulling a sudden attack that has a low stamina cost on them while dealing a large amount of damage (e.g tipping a vending machine over you suddenly, shoulder diving you from a chair, tabling, disposal diving, smashing your face into an airlock (possibly leading to space! this is another entire realm of depth) High depth, low complexity and lots of possibilities; a combat system where you can genuinely outsmart an opponent in a way that isn't suddenly pulling out a taser from your pocket in 0.01 seconds.

Of course we will never have this though, because of the usual suspects.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby calzilla1 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:48 pm #317260

Before we do that, we must address the movement speed
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby kevinz000 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:54 pm #317261

Before we do ANY stun nerfing at all conversion antags need to be looked at
The entire point of revs for example is quality vs quantity
Take security's stuns and you get not enough quantity vs quantity = deadcurity.

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby Anonmare » Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:00 pm #317262

Rev conversion could be slowed down by making their flashes burn out like normal ones.
I'm 99% sure that revheads right now never burn out their flashes so they have theoretically infinite conversions.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby kevinz000 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:19 pm #317265

they're the same thing.

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby Wyzack » Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:29 pm #317266

lzimann wrote:
kevinz000 wrote:and unless you want to scrap every single conversion gamemode go throw out your "This is a taser not a crowd control device" argument too.


That wouldn't be a bad thing.


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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby factoryman942 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:20 pm #317281

make all stuns also stun you so you have to have a friend cuff the person for you

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby danno » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:03 pm #317292

hurts my heart to see this thread again like it never happened
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby kevinz000 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:44 pm #317297

danno wrote:hurts my heart to see this thread again like it never happened


Also
By the way.
STAMINA DAMAGE IS NOT THE WAY TO GO UNLESS STAMINA DAMAGE IS HEAVILY REWORKED.
You get stunned? Well shit you're helpless for the next 10 seconds.
You got stamina stunned? Well shit you're helpless for the next 10 seconds. And then they toolbox you halfway through, making your stamina damage + normal damage once again more than 100 and sending you another stamina stun.
Now you're helpless for another 10 seconds. And then they toolbox you halfw- Oh shit you're really dead now.

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby Anonmare » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:08 pm #317299

How does Goon do stuns? Perhaps we should emulate the mechanics of the low RP server if this really is the direction we're going
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby kevinz000 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:10 pm #317300

Anonmare wrote:How does Goon do stuns? Perhaps we should emulate the mechanics of the low RP server if this really is the direction we're going

please don't.

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby danno » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:20 pm #317314

But they have a point
It's pointless to posture like we're ever going to return to """"mid"""" RP or go High RP, so we should start focusing on mechanics that compliment low-rp play instead
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby bman » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:42 pm #317318

I told you, goon stuns folks.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby John_Oxford » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:44 pm #317335

just remove stuns and make weapons 1 hit kills regardless of what they are

then give security goofgunsmithing and don't balance it then remove tc's from nuke ops and give them a crate full of materials and 5 gunsmithing stations
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby lumipharon » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:28 pm #317360

Stun combat will never get changed because:

A: No one has proposed a solution that comprehensively addresses the entire situation (ie: regular combat, as well as basic security function and conversion modes)
B: Even if someone figured out the above, it would be such a massive amount of EFFORT, since you couldn't change combat first then address the sec/conversion issues after, as that will make the game effectively unplayable in the meantime, so no coder will likely ever be bothered.

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby CPTANT » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:53 pm #317375

kevinz000 wrote:
danno wrote:hurts my heart to see this thread again like it never happened


Also
By the way.
STAMINA DAMAGE IS NOT THE WAY TO GO UNLESS STAMINA DAMAGE IS HEAVILY REWORKED.
You get stunned? Well shit you're helpless for the next 10 seconds.
You got stamina stunned? Well shit you're helpless for the next 10 seconds. And then they toolbox you halfway through, making your stamina damage + normal damage once again more than 100 and sending you another stamina stun.
Now you're helpless for another 10 seconds. And then they toolbox you halfw- Oh shit you're really dead now.


Getting stunned from stamina damage should just remove a fair bit of the stamina damage.

So 100 stamina damage -> 5-7 second stun and -50 stamina damage.

Actually that would be a vast improvement. Someone go code it!
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby oranges » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:24 pm #317394

remove stuns
buff all weapons to be instant kill

fixed

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby Anonmare » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:02 am #317412

Make eating oranges improve your disease resistance.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby ShadowDimentio » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:32 am #317419

Anonmare wrote:How does Goon do stuns? Perhaps we should emulate the mechanics of the low RP server if this really is the direction we're going


Goon does stuns effectively the same as us
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby danno » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:45 am #317421

Yeah I'm pretty sure that only bay does stuns differently than we do
and I think bay stuns are just 2-shot stun disabler style
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby kevinz000 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:04 am #317426

danno wrote:Yeah I'm pretty sure that only bay does stuns differently than we do
and I think bay stuns are just 2-shot stun disabler style

Can confirm that when I played it's based on "pain".
Also their tasers are hitscan :/

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby kevinz000 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:05 am #317428

Also specifically catering for low rp isn't the best

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby TheColdTurtle » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:12 am #317433

The only way to make this shitty game and server good is to fire all the coders and retarded admins and have the code be controlled by one person like CM does. But dumbass ledditors like to say "HEH HE MENTIONED CM THAT MEANS HIS ARGUMENT IS WRONG BECAUSE I SAW A POST ON REDDIT SAYIMG THAT IT IS BAD HEH"

t. Someone who has not read this shitty thread at all and just posted because
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby TheColdTurtle » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:15 am #317435

Also danno is correct in all of his posts
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby kevinz000 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:46 am #317457

Korphaeron save us

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby oranges » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:54 am #317461

TheColdTurtle wrote: have the code be controlled by one person like CM does.

:thinking:

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby Dr_bee » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:12 am #317467

kevinz000 wrote:
danno wrote:hurts my heart to see this thread again like it never happened


Also
By the way.
STAMINA DAMAGE IS NOT THE WAY TO GO UNLESS STAMINA DAMAGE IS HEAVILY REWORKED.
You get stunned? Well shit you're helpless for the next 10 seconds.
You got stamina stunned? Well shit you're helpless for the next 10 seconds. And then they toolbox you halfway through, making your stamina damage + normal damage once again more than 100 and sending you another stamina stun.
Now you're helpless for another 10 seconds. And then they toolbox you halfw- Oh shit you're really dead now.


It is why goon separates stamina damage from actual health. and typically stuff that do meaningful stamina damage dont do decent physical damage, and things that do meaningful physical damage dont have stamina damage higher than a player's base stamina regen.

Kludging together a stamina system out of holo-damage was a very poor way to go about it, and now it will require EFFORT to fix.

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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby TheColdTurtle » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:21 am #317468

This post was made by oranges who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post.

can someone please tell me if it is worth it to open this post? Because I am thinking that it contributes nothing due to the person who made it.......
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Re: Addressing the stun meta

Postby danno » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:10 am #317488

kevinz000 wrote:Also specifically catering for low rp isn't the best


It's better than pretending like we have some kind of plan and continuing to pull the rope both ways the way we are now.
At least if we decide we're low-rp once and for all, we finally have a fucking direction to focus on.
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