Should certain jobs be merged?

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:09 pm #352265

So I've been talking with some people and a certain theme has been cropping up, notably with regards to engineers and atmospheric techs, but also with medical doctors and chemists.

I've seen the general opinion that these job are lacking in things to do by themselves and I'm beginning to wonder if maybe we should do ith them the same as what we did with scientists - merge them into a more generic job. For those who don't know, scientists used to be separated into Toxins Researchers, Xenobiologists, Researchers and Telescientists (RIP telesci) but they were merged into a singular job due to the individual sub-departments lack of depth (there were a number of reasons beyond that but I won't get into them).

In addition, it's becoming more and more expected of engineers to be capable of atmospherics and atmos techs, as well as medical doctors, are often stuck for things to do once they've done the essentials. Engineers and atmos techs are often expected to do the same job of breach repair, outside of maintaining their assigned area, but are often hampered by one having access to more tools than the other; such as engineers being unable to shut off air alarms to stop spacewind from pushing them around and atmos techs lacking gloves to repair the power.

Medical doctors too are often at a lack of things to do due to everyone being capable of knowing everything and anyone being able to use a cryo tube/sleeper/perform surgery (plus assistants can go into maintenance which MDs can't). Chemistry is often where all the actual depth is but chemists have almost as much access to medbay as doctors and are the ones with access to the machinery to make more medicine and satchels that hold more pills/patches than a medibelt ever could.

To prevent either department from getting overcrowded, job slots could be lowered overall, approximately 6 slots in all - 3 for each subdepartment. If concern is significant about chemistry, we could keep the number of MDs to about 4 and use the last two slots for EMTs (basic medbay and supplies access, no chemistry or surgery access but maintenance access for quickly traversing the station).

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:17 pm #352270

Anonmare wrote:For those who don't know, scientists used to be separated into Toxins Researchers, Xenobiologists, Researchers and Telescientists (RIP telesci) but they were merged into a singular job due to the individual sub-departments lack of depth (there were a number of reasons beyond that but I won't get into them).

Haha what are you talking about

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:19 pm #352273

btw we can already get this sort of thing with Minimal Access turned off in the config.

These were discussions we've already had years back when roro was around

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:20 pm #352274

Scientist didn't always used to be a job, it used to be broken up into smaller jobs.

Minimal access only procs if it's lowpop

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:21 pm #352279

Anonmare wrote:Scientist didn't always used to be a job, it used to be broken up into smaller jobs.

Please show me when Telesci was ever a separate job. Or xenobio

Anonmare wrote: Minimal access only procs if it's lowpop

Config setting. Also can be overridden with said config. I should fucking know I coded it and left explicit instructions in the config file itself

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:25 pm #352283

That's way before my time, you'll need to ask the oldfags about it but don't you ever wonder why xenobiology, toxins and so on are separate access levels on airlock electronics and RCD settings?

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:31 pm #352289

Because shit just got added over time and got lumped into science. Medbay is only divided as it is because there used to be a "medsci" subdivision where CMO and RD shared jurisdiction. Which was also a result of the CMO role being created and carved out of a lot of what used to be under the RD. I'm probably missing a lot of bullshit but this is the gist

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:37 pm #352290

What climbed up your ass and died fam, this is stuff I've heard from other older members. Don't blame me if someone's spreading bullshit and people believe it because no one ever bothered to keep historical documents of the server

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:38 pm #352291

it's okay I forgive you

Super Aggro Crag · Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:57 pm

Only merge jobs at random. Cargo tech/medical doctors, botany/miners, bartender/security, clown/chemists, janitor/engineer/detectives

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:05 pm #352303

i will bitch and moan if atmos techs are removed

captain sawrge · Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:44 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote:Only merge jobs at random. Cargo tech/medical doctors, botany/miners, bartender/security, clown/chemists, janitor/engineer/detectives

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:48 pm #352317

The doctor/chemist merge is one I really support.

The doctor needs it more than the chemist, since there is basically nothing for doctors to do that the person dragging someone to medbay can't do.

Chemistry is also boring as you never get to really apply what you make.

Combing the 2 creates one nice job that actually gives something to do and also gives traitors more opportunity to mess with medbay.

People who say chemistry would be flooded with scrubs should sodd off and learn how to actually interact with people.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:52 pm #352321

Its this thread again.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:57 pm #352325

It's weird that when nobody fixes a problem the problem still gets talked about huh

Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:01 pm

Jobs not being merged isn't really a problem

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:04 pm #352332

Lazengann wrote:It's weird that when nobody fixes a problem the problem still gets talked about huh

Implying there was a problem in the first place that is remedied by merging jobs.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:14 pm #352336

Well my point still stands, there's a general sentiment that medical doctors have very little purpose or things to do if no one needs help and, in most cases, people are so adverse to being powerless for even a moment that they'd rather break-in and steal medical supplies than let a doctor treat them, nor does it change the fact that a chemist is effectively better than a doctor in nearly everything medical related with minor loss in access to medbay.

I'm just saying, why not make doctors and chemists the same? They have virtually the same amount of responsibility and access but greatly skewed effectiveness and depth.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:17 pm #352339

Anonmare wrote:Well my point still stands, there's a general sentiment that medical doctors have very little purpose or things to do if no one needs help and, in most cases, people are so adverse to being powerless for even a moment that they'd rather break-in and steal medical supplies than let a doctor treat them, nor does it change the fact that a chemist is effectively better than a doctor in nearly everything medical related with minor loss in access to medbay.

I'm just saying, why not make doctors and chemists the same? They have virtually the same amount of responsibility and access but greatly skewed effectiveness and depth.

Why are you intent on merging the jobs instead of fixing the roles? We've had this discussion before. Merging chemistry and medical will change literally nothing except instead of having 1-2 people who specifically chose to play chemistry spawn in chemistry and do chem things, you have 1-7 people spawn with chem access where 0-2 of them do chem stuff and greyshirts still kick down the door to use the sleepers/tubes/medkit storage. What did this fix, exactly?

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:22 pm #352340

It would give doctors something to do
Currently they have the problem of having nothing to do

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:24 pm #352341

Lazengann wrote:It would give doctors something to do
Currently they have the problem of having nothing to do

I mean, the math isn't complicated here.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:29 pm #352342

If you want to overhaul the medical system which I would be excited to see you are free to make a thread for it
This could help until then

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:30 pm #352343

Lazengann wrote:If you want to overhaul the medical system which I would be excited to see you are free to make a thread for it
This could help until then

How will it help anything? Elaborate.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:33 pm #352345

Okay so currently they having nothing to do
But now they could have something to do

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:33 pm #352346

Because the only other option is to make medical more complicated and everyone would genuinely prefer to eat broken glass than do that. We've talked and talked to death about it but no one wants to do it, I'm willing and able to do this. Plus if this doesn't change anything, then why not do it?

Also you could just, make chem bigger to compensate for the bigger team and/or keep the number of role slots to somewhere around 4. There's nothing you can do about assistants because our rules and mechanics don't forbid them so they'll keep at it, at least this way doctors don't have to sit around playing with their genitals

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:34 pm #352347

it might be interesting to see what, 6 chemists trying to share 2 sets of chem machines

i wonder how long until chemistry turns itself into liquid shit when that happens

edit: dumb fucking rabbit
anyway i'd like a more complex medical system tbh

captain sawrge · Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:58 pm

The solution is to add stun turrets to the medbay for unauthorized intruders

cedarbridge · Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:11 pm

Anonmare wrote:Because the only other option is to make medical more complicated and everyone would genuinely prefer to eat broken glass than do that. We've talked and talked to death about it but no one wants to do it, I'm willing and able to do this.

So then just remove medical. You can either say the job needs people to do it or that they have nothing to do. If there's a job that needs doing, it needs a role to do it. If anyone and everyone does the job then there's no need for the role. There's nothing to merge. You either fix medbay by making medical doctors matter in a way, encourage CMOs and sec to police medbay and keep the riffraff out and let the doctors work, or remove medical doctors because they serve no purpose. I'm not sure what your willingness to do a simpler task has to do with previous itterations of a more complicated task not being completed.

Anonmare wrote:Plus if this doesn't change anything, then why not do it?

If it doesn't change anything why do it?

Anonmare wrote: Also you could just, make chem bigger to compensate for the bigger team and/or keep the number of role slots to somewhere around 4. There's nothing you can do about assistants because our rules and mechanics don't forbid them so they'll keep at it, at least this way doctors don't have to sit around playing with their genitals

If they wanted to be chemists they'd have signed up to be chemists. All you're doing is taking the doctors out of medbay and moving them into chemistry. You're accepting that chemistry as a sub-department basically gets nothing out of this exchange because medbay has been transformed into a sort of limbo-land public access space even though the area is clearly locked off by a department access door. What useful purpose would be served on the station by adding more chemistry slots? "Giving doctors something to do" by not being doctors but instead being chemists isn't a thing to do. It doesn't improve the medical department, There's only so much shit you can usefully stuff into a chem vendor.

Post by **Cobby** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:35 pm #352369

Lazengann wrote:It would give doctors something to do
Currently they have the problem of having nothing to do

But there's still only 2 machines with a limited energy supply?

The only way you could fix that is either add more chem machines (eh), add more energy to the chem machines (so they can get used for meme chems) or have someone make you a portachem, which you could get done now.

Also imagine every MD having access to lethal mixes instead of 2 people with giveaway colors lol.

Takeguru · Post by **Takeguru** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:37 pm #352383

Xeno bio definitely used to be its own job, can confirm

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:39 pm #352384

DemonFiren wrote:it might be interesting to see what, 6 chemists trying to share 2 sets of chem machines

i wonder how long until chemistry turns itself into liquid shit when that happens

edit: dumb fucking rabbit
anyway i'd like a more complex medical system tbh

Ugh that stupid doom scenario again. Like everyone is going to use the chem machine the entire time.

cedarbridge · Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:44 pm

CPTANT wrote:
DemonFiren wrote:it might be interesting to see what, 6 chemists trying to share 2 sets of chem machines

i wonder how long until chemistry turns itself into liquid shit when that happens

edit: dumb fucking rabbit
anyway i'd like a more complex medical system tbh
Ugh that stupid doom scenario again. Like everyone is going to use the chem machine the entire time.

If we're to believe that MDs currently have nothing to do then this is the rational conclusion.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:46 pm #352386

ExcessiveJMadison wrote: Also imagine every MD having access to lethal mixes instead of 2 people with giveaway colors lol.

Good point

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:48 pm #352388

Lazengann wrote:
ExcessiveJMadison wrote: Also imagine every MD having access to lethal mixes instead of 2 people with giveaway colors lol.
Good point

Good point for merging them, since more medbay traitor actions is a good thing.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:53 pm #352393

cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
DemonFiren wrote:it might be interesting to see what, 6 chemists trying to share 2 sets of chem machines

i wonder how long until chemistry turns itself into liquid shit when that happens

edit: dumb fucking rabbit
anyway i'd like a more complex medical system tbh
Ugh that stupid doom scenario again. Like everyone is going to use the chem machine the entire time.
If we're to believe that MDs currently have nothing to do then this is the rational conclusion.

Worst case scenario we just put down another chemmaster in chemistry, big deal. Let's first see if this is going to be a problem to begin with.

But yes Doctors have squat to do and improving the medical system will do nothing because the job will then still revolve around sitting in medbay waiting for patients to come in.

Post by **oranges** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:55 pm #352395

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:23 am #352400

I think it's a better idea to fix the medical system and make doctors good on their own instead of trying to bandaid it by merging chemists with doctors

Qbmax32 · Post by **Qbmax32** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:25 am #352401

Instead of talking about how medical jobs should be merged we should be talking about how to fix medical

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:28 am #352403

Qbmax32 wrote:what qbopper said

fuckin

stop encouraging them

cedarbridge · Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:39 am

No double posts please.

EvilJackCarver · Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:10 am

I'm against the engineer/atmos merge. A lot of engineers know atmos about as well as a wet noodle in a right boot without a maching left. And if they do merge, then CE becomes a redundant midmanagement role where the only difference is the colour of your hat and access to one or two places the engineers already have access to because they figured out the wires at roundstart.

Qbmax32 · Post by **Qbmax32** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:18 am #352451

Qbopper wrote:
Qbmax32 wrote:what qbopper said
fuckin

stop encouraging them

I actually didn't see your above post because im retarded

But yeah make it so your average powergamer cant just carry a medkit in his backpack and boom, he's just as powerful at healing as your average MD.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:43 am #352489

Qbmax32 wrote:Instead of talking about how medical jobs should be merged we should be talking about how to fix medical

No doctor will always be a boring shitrole without something to do when there are no patients.

The merge isn't a bandaid, the merge is the right solution that solves the role of doctor having nothing to do for most of the round.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:45 am #352490

EvilJackCarver wrote:I'm against the engineer/atmos merge. A lot of engineers know atmos about as well as a wet noodle in a right boot without a maching left. And if they do merge, then CE becomes a redundant midmanagement role where the only difference is the colour of your hat and access to one or two places the engineers already have access to because they figured out the wires at roundstart.

The entire reason they don't know it is because they have no access to it......

ALso the supermatter made a lot of engineers more familiar with atmos.

EvilJackCarver · Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:43 pm

CPTANT wrote:ALso the supermatter made a lot of engineers more familiar with atmos.

Familiarity and proficiency are not the same thing.

Any person can read (and most can follow) a guide that says "wrench down the two N2 canisters that spawn here at roundstart, turn these pumps and filters on, set the vents to 0 internal and the scrubbers to x-range syphon". The Supermater is pretty much ready-to-use at roundstart, the most involved thing there is to it is filling the plasma tanks up. In a perfect round with no sabotages, the default setup will stay stable the whole round.

The problem is when people sabotage it, a lot of players don't know what to do about it or where to begin searching, from what I've seen. Hell, a small bit of Freon will stabilise it while you look, but engineers always dump the whole can in the line instead of lowering the pressure on the pump so the Freon lasts longer. I've spent a good amount of time watching engineers trying to add more coolant or trying the filters when the meters show that the issue is somewhere in the cooling loop, or spacing their gas when they decide to use N2O as their coolant because they forget to set the filters after running N2 for so long.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:45 pm #352512

CPTANT wrote:
Qbmax32 wrote:Instead of talking about how medical jobs should be merged we should be talking about how to fix medical
No doctor will always be a boring shitrole without something to do when there are no patients.

The merge isn't a bandaid, the merge is the right solution that solves the role of doctor having nothing to do for most of the round.

nothing to do for most of the round? do you think doctors just sit next to a sleeper and wait for people to walk in? Sure, there are quiet parts of the round, but if you have "nothing to do for most of the round" you're just not bothering to actually play the game

letting doctors jerk off with chem machines all round isn't a solution to medical being relatively simple and boring, it's another lazy copout that takes away from the actual player interaction side of the game so that we can have even more people sit in one room all game pushing buttons

Qbmax32 · Post by **Qbmax32** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:05 pm #352513

Correctbopper

Post by **Arianya** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:08 pm #352514

Should certain qbops be merged?

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:18 pm #352515

The real solution to doctors job being boring is making our medical system deadlier and changing the combat system but noone wants to touch that.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:21 pm #352516

Don't take my snowflake gas role from me