Encouraging Security

[NanookoftheNorth]

One problem I see on /tg/ is how few security officers there are.

Now, they are not essential to gameplay, but they essentially serve the purpose of protecting non-antags. Going for a head role, or any other role as a non-antag makes me feel defenseless when I know there is only one security officer and no HoS on the station. Typically being a non-antag non-head role, you're just fine, but you never know. I feel that people who want to be regular roles are at a disadvantage against antags, and security officers balance things.

Anyway, there are a few reasons why I myself don't enjoy choosing security officer often. The gameplay varies, but typically the actions are the same (taser someone, lock them up, determine if they should be permabrigged) but the situation is different (the mime broke into the armory to become mega-mime, vs an assistant going on a killing spree, vs the clown slipping people and dragging them into his BDSM cave).

A reason why I choose not to be a security officer is that I have the chance to be an antag as most any other role. Really, sometimes I'd want to see myself have the chance to be antag, and if I don't land as an antag, to be a security officer. Being a security officer often will make you a target for the greytide or antags too.

Really, we need some form of encouragement for security to be chosen. A few suggestions would be to have security guard as an option if one doesn't get the role of their choosing, a point system for choosing certain roles, or maybe even having sec officer antags every so often. I think the point system might be the closest thing to a solution to encourage people to choose higher stakes roles.

Right now, choosing antag is just a yes/no random chance depending on how many people are on the server. I think each job could have a point value associated with it (i.e. Assistant = 1, Cargo = 2, Engi = 3, Sec officer = 5, Any department head = 7) and one could build up points toward being favored for antag roles. However, whenever one would get an antag role, the points would reset to zero. So, basically if you managed to get an important role on the station, you would be rewarded for it by essentially guaranteeing that next time you play you will be an antag. This is just an idea, there would be balance issues. People would be clammoring to be department heads, because not only do they give you antag next round, they have sick access and tools. Honestly implementation I assume would be terrible to perform, but hey why not?

To wrap things up TL;DR WE NEED MORE SECURITY OFFICERS, CAN ANYONE THINK OF A WAY TO GET PEOPLE TO CHOOSE SECURITY?

[BeeSting12]

The misconception of jobs rolling before antag is probably what discourages it. Antagonist always rolls before job- if you get traitor then you'll spawn as something else, if you don't then you get sec officer.

[Lazengann]

Security is my favorite role. I love investigating crimes and using communication and roleplay to make deals with criminals and mediate disputes. But, I can't really do any of that in conversion game modes because they're basically team deathmatch. I shy away from selecting security because I don't want to be sec during those modes and I can't know the round type before I join.

[NanookoftheNorth]

The misconception of jobs rolling before antag is probably what discourages it. Antagonist always rolls before job- if you get traitor then you'll spawn as something else, if you don't then you get sec officer.

Oh. Well that would do it. So even if I chose security officer as my only option, I would still get antag just as something else?

Thanks for the quick reply

[Wyzack]

Security is my favorite role. I love investigating crimes and using communication and roleplay to make deals with criminals and mediate disputes. But, I can't really do any of that in conversion game modes because they're basically team deathmatch. I shy away from selecting security because I don't want to be sec during those modes and I can't know the round type before I join.

This is basically the gist of it and why conversion modes fucking suck dick

[NanookoftheNorth]

Security is my favorite role. I love investigating crimes and using communication and roleplay to make deals with criminals and mediate disputes. But, I can't really do any of that in conversion game modes because they're basically team deathmatch. I shy away from selecting security because I don't want to be sec during those modes and I can't know the round type before I join.

This is basically the gist of it and why conversion modes fucking suck dick

I find conversion modes good. Cults are particularly interesting because they're slower paced and more obvious. Revolutions are just too fast paced if the rev head is good, and less obvious since they are so mobile.

[BeeSting12]

The misconception of jobs rolling before antag is probably what discourages it. Antagonist always rolls before job- if you get traitor then you'll spawn as something else, if you don't then you get sec officer.

Oh. Well that would do it. So even if I chose security officer as my only option, I would still get antag just as something else?

Thanks for the quick reply

Yes, that is the case.

The real reason noone plays security isn't antagonist rolls. It's the lack of progression mechanics. Fifteen minutes into the round, science, cargo, botany, mining, and medical are all more effective at doing security's job than security is. At that point, the security is only good for arresting nonantagonist criminals because the aforementioned departments can do the antag hunting better. That is the point of giving everyone stuff focused on combat right? To help them validhunt?

Even if security had progression mechanics, they'd still have a huge target on their back. A scientist doesn't have the same kind of target an officer has, to nonantags and antags alike. Tally the amount of times you see any given job get abused by an assistant and then do the same with security- security's number will be higher because some players think this is GTA in space- fuck da police xDDD. Even moreso with antagonists- security will die if they get caught by any conversion antagonist and solo antagonists target officers for their stun weapons and access.

All of this stacked together makes it a job that very few people enjoy playing. Validhunters would gravitate to a job with OP gear, people who want to roleplay will play a job without a target on its back. This leaves only people who get stuck with the job randomly and those who actually like the job or are new. Meaning there's going to be very few roundstart officers. I will say that this is mostly a problem on low to middle pop, you'll usually get at least three officers and an HoS on high pop and a few heads on mid-high pop.

[Anonmare]

Departmental fabricators - as science progresses, so does security.

[NanookoftheNorth]

Yes, that is the case.

The real reason noone plays security isn't antagonist rolls. It's the lack of progression mechanics. Fifteen minutes into the round, science, cargo, botany, mining, and medical are all more effective at doing security's job than security is. At that point, the security is only good for arresting nonantagonist criminals because the aforementioned departments can do the antag hunting better. That is the point of giving everyone stuff focused on combat right? To help them validhunt?

Even if security had progression mechanics, they'd still have a huge target on their back. A scientist doesn't have the same kind of target an officer has, to nonantags and antags alike. Tally the amount of times you see any given job get abused by an assistant and then do the same with security- security's number will be higher because some players think this is GTA in space- fuck da police xDDD. Even moreso with antagonists- security will die if they get caught by any conversion antagonist and solo antagonists target officers for their stun weapons and access.

All of this stacked together makes it a job that very few people enjoy playing. Validhunters would gravitate to a job with OP gear, people who want to roleplay will play a job without a target on its back. This leaves only people who get stuck with the job randomly and those who actually like the job or are new. Meaning there's going to be very few roundstart officers. I will say that this is mostly a problem on low to middle pop, you'll usually get at least three officers and an HoS on high pop and a few heads on mid-high pop.

I see /tg/, servers of typically 30+ go with only 1 sec officer on either at a time, including HoS and Warden. I think that players can hunt antags, but as science or engineering, I doubt it. When I see someone doing something wrong, I report it to security and that's it. I don't want to die.

I think you're right in some respects, cargo, service and assistants have not much better to do than hunt antags. Science, medbay, and engineering I would say aren't that well equipped to handle antag threats, and it isn't their priority.

Security's job is to hunt antags. Going on patrols throughout the station including maintenance is part of catching the bad guys. When a fight breaks out, and the crew sees a sec officer on the floor, they know who to help. If they saw two scientists, it's never clear who's the bad guy. If I saw two assistants fighting, I couldn't side with either of them. Usually, as a sec officer when breaking up a fight, I attempt to stop both of them.

Creating progression for security doesn't encourage people to play security, it would encourage people to kill security. I do agree though, adding some progression would make the job seem more interesting as the round goes on. Typically as things go to shit, security begins to only keep security secure, and any other reported problems a brave soul goes out alone or with a friend.

[J_Madison]

One problem I see on /tg/ is how few security officers there are.

Thats because most of us have quit playing, became admin, or got banned.

[Anonmare]

Greytide needs to be pruned tbh

[BeeSting12]

>science and medical aren't well equipped to handle antags

Science: Self recharging eguns. X-rays. Beam rifles. Implants/augments. Mechs. BoHs so you can carry 10 guns.

Medical: Hulk (smash down walls), x-ray (see through walls), heat resistance (go to space), TK (not that good but can be used to meme on people), manlet (make sprite hard to hit), self healing viruses within five minutes, and instakill death syringes.

[Remie Richards]

The misconception of jobs rolling before antag is probably what discourages it. Antagonist always rolls before job- if you get traitor then you'll spawn as something else, if you don't then you get sec officer.

Misconception is entirely unfair, since it was quite literally fact since the game's creation.
It was only changed within the last year or two.

[NanookoftheNorth]

>science and medical aren't well equipped to handle antags

Science: Self recharging eguns. X-rays. Beam rifles. Implants/augments. Mechs. BoHs so you can carry 10 guns.

Medical: Hulk (smash down walls), x-ray (see through walls), heat resistance (go to space), TK (not that good but can be used to meme on people), manlet (make sprite hard to hit), self healing viruses within five minutes, and instakill death syringes.

You make a solid point. However, those same things can be in the hands of antagonists. Security I've always thought of as the definite good guys their goal is to stop the bad guys. I don't think when people go hulk or make beam rifles their intention was to take down antagonists. I'm pretty sure the people who do that just want to break things or be powerful. They likely wouldn't actively seek out antagonists like security does.

One thing I'd like to say is thank you for time reading this topic. I appreciate the discussion regardless of the outcome.

edit:

The misconception of jobs rolling before antag is probably what discourages it. Antagonist always rolls before job- if you get traitor then you'll spawn as something else, if you don't then you get sec officer.

Misconception is entirely unfair, since it was quite literally fact since the game's creation.
It was only changed within the last year or two.

I've played since 2013, so I appreciate the support.

[Nilons]

Ive found the only way to play sec for an extended period is to just not worry about antags till they come your way. I just dick around and arrest people for committing crimes instead of making my bottom line antags caught, it makes the game more fun for the sec officer who doesn't have to worry about dying at every corner and reaping salt from greytiders as well as making it more fun for antags who get to be creative and not worry about getting random searched with a revolver. Thinking of sec as "The guys who get the antags" is only gonna make them less attractive because people who like to do that type of shit play CM or burn out.

[oranges]

very smart post

[Arianya]

Another factor some people forget to mention is that Security tends to be the "heatsink" of the server. If the antagonist wins, salt tends to blow its way sec-wise, most of the time unjustified. This doesn't really bother me, but I can certainly see some people not wanting to be on the receiving end of "Yeah sec is retarded" "especially [x]" "security so bad" etc etc.

I've half pondered before whether it was worth taking the idea of "departmental" security further, dissolving/reducing the security department and ingraining the Security Officer role as a limited role in each department. The main issue I foresee with this is proto-nations, where people think/know the traitor is a scientist but the science sec officers defend their "territory"

[NanookoftheNorth]

Ive found the only way to play sec for an extended period is to just not worry about antags till they come your way. I just dick around and arrest people for committing crimes instead of making my bottom line antags caught, it makes the game more fun for the sec officer who doesn't have to worry about dying at every corner and reaping salt from greytiders as well as making it more fun for antags who get to be creative and not worry about getting random searched with a revolver. Thinking of sec as "The guys who get the antags" is only gonna make them less attractive because people who like to do that type of shit play CM or burn out.

I don't think any sec officer plays just to catch antags. I play to keep order and catch antags. If I see a greytider breaking into engineering, I will stop and detain them. If they wanted to be an engineer, they should've chosen it. I have a better time detaining people who I know aren't antags because then I don't need to deal with perma, gulag, or execution. I just give them a slap on the wrist and call it a day.

I am saying it is a part of the job, while it isn't for most other jobs.

[Whoisthere]

Sec is great for roleplay - you're forced to interact with people and try to solve their essentially unsolvable problems ("he took my beaker so I beat him up" - "he beat me up so I cut his leg off" - "he cut my leg off so I took him to crit city" - "i got arrested for critting a dude now I'm gonna hunt sec" - and so it goes on and on). Sec is also great for simpler make-sprite-vertical type of fun, and has enough equipment to stop virtually any kind of threat throughout the round, sec gets to employ more teamwork than other departments if they're competent, and det/whoever uses the forensic scanner gets their fair share of paranoia too.

The only thing sec doesn't have is sitting in your department and autisming up a gygax or something.

Also you have to deal with flak from the crew, and it also gets hectic sometimes and you gotta deal with it too, and you also gotta deal with being the guy who screwed everyone over by being the hos/officer who got killed in maint and let antags get access to the armory or whatever, sometimes.

And on lowpop, sec is often boring, because there are too little conflicts and antags. You dunk two, and then you sit in the bar for the rest of the shift puking your guts out while everyone else builds mechs, makes viruses and experiments with the gasses.

I guess the last issue is solvable by introducing more random events that spawn mobs on station that you gotta catch, handcuff and send off to centcomm for a reward or just plain kill, butcher and eat for buffs/make a hat out of their hide/whatever. I know there are carps and cargo spiders/syndicates/russians but on lowpop they're all dead to cargo techs and assistants by the time you get to them.

[Nilons]

You don't know any that just try to catch antags because they get burnt out very quickly. It being their job to catch antags falls under the umbrella of protect the station from itself and things outside it. Propogating security as the antag deletion detail will do the opposite of encourage players to play it.

[Nabski]

You make a solid point. However, those same things can be in the hands of antagonists. Security I've always thought of as the definite good guys their goal is to stop the bad guys. I don't think when people go hulk or make beam rifles their intention was to take down antagonists. I'm pretty sure the people who do that just want to break things or be powerful. They likely wouldn't actively seek out antagonists like security does.

Not rushing x-ray cold resist hulk so you can circle the station looking for stargazers to smash up. What are you even doing with your life mang?

[Gamarr]

Grounds-up design of modes and restructuring of several departments with interlinking problems.

Swarm modes such as rev where antagonism spreads like a contact virus are bad because of... well, it's a rage virus. 'Oh no, I got flashed!' and then half the greybacks are frothing at the mouth. It doesn't breed, generally, interaction outside of bushwhacking officers for weaponry or their access.
Brings up the second point of how badly designed security is. Basic security major failing is that they all have large, generalized brig/security access and full access to weapons (a tazer is still a weapon, it just means you stun them first and then beat their head in). So all it takes is one single officer to compromise pretty much the entire force. They should be equipped/handled like prison guards. Shitty weapons if any, access restricted to their spot/function, and if you want lethal weaponry, including tazers, stun-batons, and a shotgun, you hit up the supply staff (warden) that sits inside his bunker-like brig. There is little actual security, anywhere. Guns? Anyone can use. Those sec implants? Largely just cosmetic and for HUDs.

Because why the fuck is the area full of weapons also half made up of fucking windows. WINDOWS. EVERYWHERE. WHY?
The problem of security and round length is all interlinked. Mapping, how the dept is structured, and even how they are loaded out (power-creep issue?) are all contributing factors of 'why things are bad.'

[NanookoftheNorth]

Grounds-up design of modes and restructuring of several departments with interlinking problems.

Swarm modes such as rev where antagonism spreads like a contact virus are bad because of... well, it's a rage virus. 'Oh no, I got flashed!' and then half the greybacks are frothing at the mouth. It doesn't breed, generally, interaction outside of bushwhacking officers for weaponry or their access.
Brings up the second point of how badly designed security is. Basic security major failing is that they all have large, generalized brig/security access and full access to weapons (a tazer is still a weapon, it just means you stun them first and then beat their head in). So all it takes is one single officer to compromise pretty much the entire force. They should be equipped/handled like prison guards. Shitty weapons if any, access restricted to their spot/function, and if you want lethal weaponry, including tazers, stun-batons, and a shotgun, you hit up the supply staff (warden) that sits inside his bunker-like brig. There is little actual security, anywhere. Guns? Anyone can use. Those sec implants? Largely just cosmetic and for HUDs.

Because why the fuck is the area full of weapons also half made up of fucking windows. WINDOWS. EVERYWHERE. WHY?
The problem of security and round length is all interlinked. Mapping, how the dept is structured, and even how they are loaded out (power-creep issue?) are all contributing factors of 'why things are bad.'

First, thank you for posting. I enjoy your perspective.

In some respects, I think that from your perspective everyone on the station could have the same authority as a security officer without weapons (without a taser). As HoS, I always recruit rando's for my cause. It's very risky though, since a mindshield implant doesn't get rid of traitors, changlings, revs, but only protects against it. I like to live life on the edge. Anyway, to get to my point, it only takes a little encouragement to make someone with some loyalty to the station.

[kevinz000]

Why does he think security is meant to hunt antags there's far more to the job... The more fun conflicts aren't antag conflicts.

Also pull a me and collect powers and stuff from other departments and ignore the flak because if you know you're right who cares what the tide thinks



IN reality you only like the job if you're a masochist

[onleavedontatme]

I just walk out the airlock if it's a mode I hate and I enjoy security way more for it.

[SpaceInaba]

permabrigging that annoying greyshirt that's been terrorizing the station > dunking antags
also if you want to encourage security give everybody krav maga gloves so they cant shit talk us when we arrest them

[Qbopper]

I just walk out the airlock if it's a mode I hate and I enjoy security way more for it.

please disable your suit sensors before doing this or you'll give me a hernia when i'm cmo

[Anonmare]

Dunking greytiders and hearing them salt in OOC is its own reward

[Qbopper]

it's probably a combo of multiple factors, like the ones mentioned in this thread

-nobody wants to get shit on in OOC/deadchat and this happens a lot even when sec is trying their best, but johnny greyshirt who smashed windows all shift and then got eaten by a ling wasn't instantly saved by sec officers when he said ;HELP MAINT so he thinks that shitcurity need to be banned
-conversion modes are a travesty
-people think they can't roll antag if they're sec because it isn't made that clear in game
-there's a certain level of competency expected from sec players and if you don't meet that level of competency then you risk being shit on
-some people just don't enjoy the conflict aspects of the game
-sometimes people just want to play a non sec role

i'm not sure how we could encourage rolling security more - you can't make people stop shitting on sec players for being (perceived as or just actually being) bad, conversion modes is its own discussion, there's no real way to measure how robust you should be to play sec, and (i fucking hope) we aren't going to do something as asinine as a points system for sec to attract players

we could put a header in job prefs that says "antags are chosen before jobs, so you can pick any role and still get chosen to be an antag", but otherwise i'm not sure how we could get more people to play sec, it's just kinda part of the role that fewer people want to play it - why be the cop arresting the greyshit when you can be the greyshit? you can probably get away with more as an assistant than as sec since sec is held to a higher standard more of the time

[Nilons]

While sec is held to a higher standard they also get a lot more leeway as long as they're not blatantly out of control in my experience. The last time I was bwoinked as sec was because an admin was reading logs wrong. As long as you don't do any of the big no no's like removing people from round or delimbing you're normally pretty much good to do whatever you see fit, at least as far as ive had it.

[Qbopper]

While sec is held to a higher standard they also get a lot more leeway as long as they're not blatantly out of control in my experience. The last time I was bwoinked as sec was because an admin was reading logs wrong. As long as you don't do any of the big no no's like removing people from round or delimbing you're normally pretty much good to do whatever you see fit, at least as far as ive had it.

true

i think there was a point in time a few years back where sec was held to really high standards but i can't remember so i may have gotten confused

[ShadowDimentio]

THE CYCLE CONTINUES, UNBROKEN, AD INFINITUM

[kevinz000]

-nobody wants to get shit on in OOC/deadchat and this happens a lot even when sec is trying their best, but johnny greyshirt who smashed windows all shift and then got eaten by a ling wasn't instantly saved by sec officers when he said ;HELP MAINT so he thinks that shitcurity need to be banned

Exactly why it takes being a masochist to like the job
Also I love their delicious salt lol

[Dr_bee]

If secborgs are permanently reintroduced it should help somewhat with the lack of security players as well as provide a counter to most shitcurity behaviors.

Best way I can think to make security less painful to play is to do one of a few things, either make murdering a security officer basically asking your cover to be blown via something like a med-implant that goon has or giving security a protolathe linked to the RnD sever that can print out guns with cooperation with research and cargo.

Both would be unpopular with antag players and would have consideration when it comes to game balance. But remember, antag rounds arent sacred, "i ded" doesnt mean it is overpowered it means the meta hasnt adapted yet.

[Nilons]

-nobody wants to get shit on in OOC/deadchat and this happens a lot even when sec is trying their best, but johnny greyshirt who smashed windows all shift and then got eaten by a ling wasn't instantly saved by sec officers when he said ;HELP MAINT so he thinks that shitcurity need to be banned

Exactly why it takes being a masochist to like the job
Also I love their delicious salt lol

This is probably the truest answer, if you wanna play sec you gotta be on that salt hustle

[Lazengann]

While sec is held to a higher standard they also get a lot more leeway as long as they're not blatantly out of control in my experience. The last time I was bwoinked as sec was because an admin was reading logs wrong. As long as you don't do any of the big no no's like removing people from round or delimbing you're normally pretty much good to do whatever you see fit, at least as far as ive had it.

true

i think there was a point in time a few years back where sec was held to really high standards but i can't remember so i may have gotten confused

When SoS was around he'd try to ban anyone in a red jumpsuit so you're correct there

[kevinz000]

Oh yeah all my shitposting aside the delicious salt part only applies if you're in the right so don't fuck with people if you're shitcurity :^)

[NanookoftheNorth]

If secborgs are permanently reintroduced it should help somewhat with the lack of security players as well as provide a counter to most shitcurity behaviors.

Best way I can think to make security less painful to play is to do one of a few things, either make murdering a security officer basically asking your cover to be blown via something like a med-implant that goon has or giving security a protolathe linked to the RnD sever that can print out guns with cooperation with research and cargo.

Both would be unpopular with antag players and would have consideration when it comes to game balance. But remember, antag rounds arent sacred, "i ded" doesnt mean it is overpowered it means the meta hasnt adapted yet.

Providing a means of punishing targeting security would probably end up making it where department heads might have that same feature. Logically speaking it would make sense. However, without it, it wouldn't make sense. How does it blow their cover? Like a loud alarm or something?

[Dr_bee]

If secborgs are permanently reintroduced it should help somewhat with the lack of security players as well as provide a counter to most shitcurity behaviors.

Best way I can think to make security less painful to play is to do one of a few things, either make murdering a security officer basically asking your cover to be blown via something like a med-implant that goon has or giving security a protolathe linked to the RnD sever that can print out guns with cooperation with research and cargo.

Both would be unpopular with antag players and would have consideration when it comes to game balance. But remember, antag rounds arent sacred, "i ded" doesnt mean it is overpowered it means the meta hasnt adapted yet.

Providing a means of punishing targeting security would probably end up making it where department heads might have that same feature. Logically speaking it would make sense. However, without it, it wouldn't make sense. How does it blow their cover? Like a loud alarm or something?

The goonstation medical implants send out a radio message to medbay when an implanted person dies, so I would imagine it would have to be similar, could have it be stationwide or just medbay and sec. Either way it means you have to bug out fast after killing a sec officer, giving you a time limit on looting and hiding the body as everyone knows the location of the dead person.

[cedarbridge]

While sec is held to a higher standard they also get a lot more leeway as long as they're not blatantly out of control in my experience. The last time I was bwoinked as sec was because an admin was reading logs wrong. As long as you don't do any of the big no no's like removing people from round or delimbing you're normally pretty much good to do whatever you see fit, at least as far as ive had it.

Part of the reason sec ends up with a higher level of scrutiny (besides the implicit trust that is assumed between sec and the crew) is that sec generally acts as pseudo admins. They don't enforce the rules of the server, exactly, but they do police all of the minor IC issues that admins don't really want to have to get involved in.

-Two greys fighting in the bar over some petty bullshit? Sec's problem.
-Urist McButt stole your gloves? Sec's problem.
-Randoms pushing past doctors to heal up their metabuddies and loot medical supplies. You bet that's sec's problem.

Sec is a job that works best when the crew trusts the officers. The crew trusts the officers when they can count on sec to show up for these minor issues when they're needed. There's all sorts of minor stuff that often shows up in ahelps that really should be things that are reported to (and acted on by) security. I've received ahelps from players because a guy jumped a counter and punched in in the face and then ran back out of the room. The question then becomes, why did they call me, an OOC admin, instead of an IC sec officer?

-Would sec have shown up or done anything about it?
-Are there any sec officers on station?
-Is the Warden or HoS coordinating officers to respond to calls from crew? (this is a big one, really)

Players don't call sec a lot of the time because they presume that sec just doesn't care and won't show up for non-antag issues. When players are already in the valid hunting culture we have, they're not going to be super hype about sec chasing antags because its already assumed that somebody is chasing the antags around. The players in the crew, then, need to see sec doing other things (policing minor crime issues relevant to them and their job) in order to establish rapport and trust. Crew will be more likely to assist sec, take sec's side and not impede sec when they see sec officers as somebody who is there to help them and not just the guy with the baton and cuffs that drags off the antag or beats the clown.

tl:dr: Sec gets easier when sec does things to make its job easier.

[Nilons]

It only takes 1 shit officer to ruin a players trust, whereas it takes months of babysitting to gain it

[cedarbridge]

It only takes 1 shit officer to ruin a players trust, whereas it takes months of babysitting to gain it

That can be overcome by how the HoS/Captain handles the dickass officer. If the crew sees the officer acting like a shitler and the HoS/Captain ignores/ratifies/condones the officer's actions, the crew will ascribe that to the sec department being dickasses and act accordingly. If, instead, the crew sees complaints against bad officers being taken seriously, they'll be more likely to ascribe the bad behavior to the officer being a shit and not the uniform.

[Nilons]

It only takes 1 shit officer to ruin a players trust, whereas it takes months of babysitting to gain it

That can be overcome by how the HoS/Captain handles the dickass officer. If the crew sees the officer acting like a shitler and the HoS/Captain ignores/ratifies/condones the officer's actions, the crew will ascribe that to the sec department being dickasses and act accordingly. If, instead, the crew sees complaints against bad officers being taken seriously, they'll be more likely to ascribe the bad behavior to the officer being a shit and not the uniform.

In a perfect world there would always be a nondickass hos or captain to do this, but the reality is there's normally one or two officers maybe a warden, and if you remove half your team every time someone complains you'll soon just not have a security force. What i'm mainly trying to get at is that if all the officers are total bros all it takes is a few bad eggs to ruin the entire reputation, and remedying that hinges on not only there being a head, but him being not a dickass/not busy

[NanookoftheNorth]

It only takes 1 shit officer to ruin a players trust, whereas it takes months of babysitting to gain it

That can be overcome by how the HoS/Captain handles the dickass officer. If the crew sees the officer acting like a shitler and the HoS/Captain ignores/ratifies/condones the officer's actions, the crew will ascribe that to the sec department being dickasses and act accordingly. If, instead, the crew sees complaints against bad officers being taken seriously, they'll be more likely to ascribe the bad behavior to the officer being a shit and not the uniform.

In a perfect world there would always be a nondickass hos or captain to do this, but the reality is there's normally one or two officers maybe a warden, and if you remove half your team every time someone complains you'll soon just not have a security force. What i'm mainly trying to get at is that if all the officers are total bros all it takes is a few bad eggs to ruin the entire reputation, and remedying that hinges on not only there being a head, but him being not a dickass/not busy

I think that it's a stretch to blame the group for being a shit officers. I think it's more reasonable to assume its at an individual basis. When I see an engineer fucking the SM, I don't assume all engineers in the department are idiots. I always remind people as I am detaining them "sorry this is just my job." I think people are more forgiving when they realize the other player is trying to be reasonable. I think that's honestly my favorite part about security, if ever I see a player and tase them for something suspicious, they explain themselves, and I realize it was just a misunderstanding; when I let them go, it's a way of encouraging them to do their thing.