Security Rework for Fast Paced Rounds

[NanookoftheNorth]

I've made now three separate topics discussing security one about adding persistent ranks, and the other I won't even link because I misunderstood the current mechanics of being chosen as antag.


The objective here is simple: Give people a reason to play security over being an assistant, and make security easier to manage against antags. More often than not, people avoid being security. I understand why. Security has a lot of troubles associated with it. You're basically an antag target like the captain, but with no access, and a fun gun.

I believe that persistent security ranks would encourage players to play security. The ranks would be a point system, 1 point for playing security, 1 point for surviving the round, 1 point for getting a medal (max 3 points per round).

Code: Select all

Private: 0 points
Private First Class: 10 points
Specialist: 25 points
Corporal: 50 points
Sergeant: 100 points
Staff Sergeant: 150 points
Sergeant First Class: 200 points
Master Sergeant: 250 points
First Sergeant: 500 points
Sergeant Major: 750 points
Command Sergeant Major: 1000 points

Rank name and point values up for discussion

To make security easier, and more interesting, would be a means of progression. Progression is probably half the reason why everyone picks scientist and shaft miner. The idea would be to have a means of getting better gear by turning in contraband (syndicate contraband to be specific) to a machine similar to the process shaft miners currently do. The benefit would be that the security officers would have access to telecrystals (or points really) to get their own advanced gear when R&D ignores security. Security officers would now have a choice of keeping the contraband or not. I haven't seen the whole security R&D tree, so it's difficult to say what the point values would be. However, security would get cool toys, and a reason to use it too.

To compensate for rounds in which there are no physical possessions, or useful items for those on the security team to turn in, there would need to be a Mind Body Scanning Machine. This is, by far, the most bold idea. I'm sure it's been mentioned before. I think this is a necessity for the "fast paced rounds" of /tg/ station. Look at how streamlined every other department is with respect to their jobs, security pales in comparison. This machine would have the appearance of the DNA scanner, or similar. It would scan a prisoner, and it would take 3 minutes to recharge to scan another person. Dead people will not scan. The reason for the wait would be to have a reason to hold people in the brig. The scanner would require a security ID, and if a scan was successful (an antag inside) one would get additional TC or points to buy additional stuff. Upon scanning, just like with the gulag teleporter, this would implant the person inside if tested positive for antag, and this implant would be a tracker. Basically, if this person dies now, the security officer would pay for it. This would be to encourage keeping prisoners alive. The machine wouldn't say what exactly they are, unless upgraded. This would provide a means of the detective investigating them. However, this machine would somewhat invalidate the lawyer. The lawyer would, at the end of the day, be used for internal disputes. This would be a nerf to antags in some means too, since now all antags can be determined guilty even if they didn't do anything explicitly wrong.

To summarize my points, the objective is to encourage security, make security more fun, and make it easier. Security needs some means of getting people on their team, and ranks provide for that encouragement. The addictive "point" system of shaft miners could be utilized be gearing security. The scanner would be a means of discouraging kill on sight play, and encourage detainment. With the fast paced gameplay of /tg/ station, times need to change. Security, for nearly as long as I've played, hasn't really changed. It's about time it does.

Edit: The ideas handling antags for points has been nearly universally rejected by the community. Taking that feedback, having a telecrystal system that security can buy their own equipment at round start is the next best idea that takes some of the interesting decisions of being a traitor and puts it in the hands of security. It would utilize already existing R&D weapons. The security team would not be able to earn anything from doing their jobs outside of what already exists.

I appreciate the feedback. With the fast paced modern rounds, changes to security must be made to keep security interesting and worth playing.

[XDTM]

Look at how streamlined every other department is with respect to their jobs, security pales in comparison.

Is there anything more streamlined that "all there at roundstart"?
If anything, sec needs something to do on long rounds, when conflict is rare and they can only twiddle their thumbs and hope someone feels like murdering someone else.

[kevinz000]

>antag scanner
Terrible idea do not ever reward people for hunting antags, for kill or capture both.

[Selea]

Let's make special room near AI with pillars for people's brains. So after antag is confirmed with scanner, you can insert their brain into pillar to make their souls pump mystic power into captain/HOS.More brains--more spells HOS will get and less will be their cooldown. HOS should be able to grant some of his power to officers.
Meanwhile brains will work as subprocessors of AI. It means, they works like AI, but mainfraim can write laws for them and grant/restrict access for some functions.

[NanookoftheNorth]

Is there anything more streamlined that "all there at roundstart"?
If anything, sec needs something to do on long rounds, when conflict is rare and they can only twiddle their thumbs and hope someone feels like murdering someone else.

I appreciate the input. You're right, during long rounds the idea is to give security something for doing their jobs. I guess there might need to be some other means of acquiring cool stuff, potentially similar to how R&D works.

>antag scanner
Terrible idea do not ever reward people for hunting antags, for kill or capture both.

I would appreciate some explanation of why it is a bad idea. Otherwise, there is no progression, and we can't improve upon the idea with your input.

edit: fixed grammar

[kevinz000]

Security already validhunts hard enough, giving them more encouragement to take out antags is not what you should be doing.
Taking out antags lethally or via capture is not what security exists solely for.
If you want security to be more interesting make combat more interesting, not give them points and a goddamn antag scanner.

[cedarbridge]

>antag scanner
Terrible idea do not ever reward people for hunting antags, for kill or capture both.

I would appreciate some explanation of why it is a bad idea. Otherwise, there is no progression, and we can't improve upon the idea with your input.

Antag status is information we don't even give to ghosts. We don't give it to ghosts for good reason. SS13 is a game about imperfect information. Antags escape because they can reasonbly convince sec that they aren't antagonists/were framed/etc. Granting sec a scanner that cannot lie and gives sec perfect valid-hunting confirmation undermines this needlessly. Also, you'd end up with unavoidable cases where sec just demands that anyone who enters sec get slapped with the magic verification machine. If you refuse they'll presume you're hiding antag status and thus valid. If you don't refuse and come up positive you're valid and they murder you.

[Lumbermancer]

Enable secborgs.

[kevinz000]

Enable secborgs.

No.

[Selea]

if antag scanner is bad idea, still soulplant with canned brains is good idea.

[NanookoftheNorth]

Security already validhunts hard enough, giving them more encouragement to take out antags is not what you should be doing.
Taking out antags lethally or via capture is not what security exists solely for.
If you want security to be more interesting make combat more interesting, not give them points and a goddamn antag scanner.

Antag status is information we don't even give to ghosts. We don't give it to ghosts for good reason. SS13 is a game about imperfect information. Antags escape because they can reasonbly convince sec that they aren't antagonists/were framed/etc. Granting sec a scanner that cannot lie and gives sec perfect valid-hunting confirmation undermines this needlessly. Also, you'd end up with unavoidable cases where sec just demands that anyone who enters sec get slapped with the magic verification machine. If you refuse they'll presume you're hiding antag status and thus valid. If you don't refuse and come up positive you're valid and they murder you.

I'm fine with abandoning the idea of an antag scanner. The reason why I suggested something so significant is that I've rarely seen security, with the 3 people on their side, succeed during a rev round, and people are starting to finally get wise with clock cults. Shouldn't the win loss ratio be more even? If you know you're going to lose or die joining security, why join?

The way security would become more interesting is giving them more tools to solve their problems, in this case, from R&D available for purchase after obtaining points for doing their job. It's a long stretch to change combat significantly other than changing things medically. Consider what makes every other department fun, they have so many options to choose from for their job, that it's difficult to look into all of them. Security, without support from R&D, has the brig, armory, and tasers. That's about it.

edit: I realize, maybe I should be asking a bigger question. Is security fine as it is?

[cedarbridge]

This is just going to turn into a tide vs sec shitflinging thread where both sides come out to claim they're the oppressed class. In reality, sec is generally populated every round, though not always at max capacity due to player interest in doing things other than wave a tazer around. We're pretty far away from the days of nosec.

[Dr_bee]

Enable secborgs.

No.

The short time where Armulen enabled secborgs was probably the most manageable security has ever been. I actually could play security then and not burn the fuck out. Security relies on working together, and that almost NEVER happens anymore, if you get security staff at all.

Right now security needs a significant buff somewhere, or at least some method to get people to actually PLAY it, or barring that some method so even if you only get 3 officers the antags actually have something fighting against them so we dont end up with curbstomp changling or clockcult rounds because all 2 sec officers who are unlucky enough to have not burned out yet cant handle keeping the entire station safe.

It is a major problem that 2 of the departments that are most needed for the antag/non-antag dynamic, security and medical, are often the least staffed because they are unrewarding jobs with no depth to them where you end up either being useless for an entire round or dying in the first 20 minutes.

[NanookoftheNorth]

Enable secborgs.

No.

It is a major problem that 2 of the departments that are most needed for the antag/non-antag dynamic, security and medical, are often the least staffed because they are unrewarding jobs with no depth to them where you end up either being useless for an entire round or dying in the first 20 minutes.

I didn't realize this. I appreciate your point and the support. I've been peeved about medical too, but didn't have much more reason than it being un-engaging.

This is just going to turn into a tide vs sec shitflinging thread where both sides come out to claim they're the oppressed class. In reality, sec is generally populated every round, though not always at max capacity due to player interest in doing things other than wave a tazer around. We're pretty far away from the days of nosec.

I appreciate your perspective, however, I see security consistently left unfilled, with at most 3 sec officers with 20 assistants. Humor me for just a moment and ask yourself, what could security have to be more fun? Or even, what is fun to do as security? If you think that assistants or antags need to be buffed in some way, tell me what you think is unfair or needs change. I don't see things that way, but I rarely get the chance to play antag.

[kevinz000]

Security is fun for me because I'm helping make the round not a shitfest and solve disputes between players. That's the reward. Or you just like the role, I guess.

[Selea]

To make security more interesting, you should grant them magic powers, powered by human sacrifices.

[NanookoftheNorth]

[kevinz000]

yeah it's terrible but encouraging validhunting with capturing antags to get points (you know tg players care about points a whole lot more than they should.) isn't the right answer.

[NanookoftheNorth]

yeah it's terrible but encouraging validhunting with capturing antags to get points (you know tg players care about points a whole lot more than they should.) isn't the right answer.

You're encouraging me now, but in a different way. Another approach must be made.

How about instead of having the same default equipment every round, do something similar to traitors, and have a certain number of bluespace crystals or TC where they could customize their loadout each round. They would only have a certain number of points. If it's bluespace crystals, there would be a power creep as the round goes on, and shaft miners basically run the station.

I think that it would mix up the gameplay of a security officer enough by having "builds." Because you have only so many each round, you need to play out an entire round to determine if certain items were useful. Preparation would be the motivating factor here.

This could also be a buff in some way because if sec determined what the threat is, they can wait to buy their stuff according to the threat. The issue then would be that they are essentially unarmed until then.

Feel free to poke holes in this one, but this would be a happy medium between the opposing ideas, and improvements to be made in security.

[SpaceInaba]

give the HoS a cqc bandana instead of a gun

[Cobby]

Can I ask why does it matter if there's little to no security in a round where every other job grinds for pseudo-sec gear?

If you want something to do as sec, simply help your assigned department until something occurs.

Another issue is people would rather handle issues themselves so instead of calling sec (which would give sec something to do beside strict antag hunting) they get into fights, lose, and try to call admins.

[NanookoftheNorth]

Can I ask why does it matter if there's little to no security in a round where every other job grinds for pseudo-sec gear?

If you want something to do as sec, simply help your assigned department until something occurs.

Another issue is people would rather handle issues themselves so instead of calling sec (which would give sec something to do beside strict antag hunting) they get into fights, lose, and try to call admins.

Next time I get the chance I am going to observe a sec guard.

When I play, I try to stick to whatever department I am and stop people who arent supposed to be there from entering. If there are too few people on the sec team, I might do patrols around the primary hallways.
I agree about not calling sec. The other day I had a dispute as CMO against a doctor, who wasn't following my orders. I told him that he's insubordinate and that he needs to stop. He said no. Typically, I'd have to beat him down and make him into a patient. However, there happened to be a sec guard around and he took him down for me. Made life easier for everyone.

Maybe having something in your department's locker could be an encouragement to go and stay in your department.

[Stickymayhem]

This would generally ruin the entire fucking game more than any other change I can think of

[oranges]

>Look at how streamlined every other department is with respect to their jobs

Be me
roundstart sec
take taser out of belt
stun people

progression

[CPTANT]

>Look at how streamlined every other department is with respect to their jobs

Be me
roundstart sec
take taser out of belt
stun people

progression

I would say the actual progression depends entirely on what threat you are facing. But yes, you are always going to be reactionary.

[NanookoftheNorth]

This would generally ruin the entire fucking game more than any other change I can think of

I said this before earlier in this topic. Explain yourself.

I've edited the topic to yield to the idea of not adding the two original bold ideas, but suggesting a more realistic one that does not change the balance of antags, but changes security. This idea being to have security set up similarly to how traitors are set up, in having a choice of standard and R&D weapons and tools to work with. This will hopefully make each round different, and give a player reason to play security frequently (to fine tune their loadout for each antag scenario).

Does this alternative idea sound reasonable? I've not had the time I wanted to as to clarify what this system would look like with the specifics.

[kevinz000]

I'm hard pressed to believe that a combat rework would make security more interesting but that's just me. They have enough to do they can moonlight if they have nothing to do. They get their extra gear from techwebs.

[Dr_bee]

I'm hard pressed to believe that a combat rework would make security more interesting but that's just me. They have enough to do they can moonlight if they have nothing to do. They get their extra gear from techwebs.

Problem is right now weapons are prohibitively expensive tech point wise. I rarely if ever see security with advanced weapons outside of war-ops or war-cult.

Effectively techwebs was the biggest nerf to security since the removal of secborgs.

[Solidyote]

Another issue I've seen is that, the amount of security officers seems to be limited at roundstart. Several times over I had sec officer at "medium" preference, and ended up being the second lawyer while lawyer was was set to "low", and looking at the crew manifest we had 3 sec officers and 28 assistants. But when arriving mid-round I can join sec officer when they're already 5-8 no problems.

I'm hard pressed to believe that a combat rework would make security more interesting but that's just me. They have enough to do they can moonlight if they have nothing to do. They get their extra gear from techwebs.

What does "moonlight" means in that context? When I have nothing to do as sec I just wait and screw around.

[Stickymayhem]

Security is not designed to antag hunt, even if most play it like that. They are there to keep order. That means stopping destructive antagonists sure, but they are a faction, not "the good guys" with the sole purpose of killing all the threats to the station and winning by just making the round boring.

Encouraging that mentality with "it's a wizard round get your mage killer loadout boys" is trash. Security is fine as is. It's hard to play well which is why there are not many good security regulars. It's hard to play because it involves detachment and not having a total fixation on winning to make the game fun for everyone and not be frustrating.

[NanookoftheNorth]

Security is fine as is. It's hard to play well which is why there are not many good security regulars. It's hard to play because it involves detachment and not having a total fixation on winning to make the game fun for everyone and not be frustrating.

I disagree. Tell me why security is fine as it is.
I will tell you why security needs to change:

Spoiler:

This is a typical /tg/ round. Every other department people flock to, yet security is the only one people avoid. Something needs to be done to bring balance to what is an essential role for not only interesting scenarios for antags, but interesting scenarios for non-antags as well. Tell me that a typical round as an antag is more interesting without security than with security. There would be no struggle, no close calls, no "getting away with it". Some people valid hunt, yes, and I understand security's purpose isn't to valid hunt.

The goal here is to make security interesting, rewarding, and repeatable. Enough where people would rather play security than be an assistant.

[oranges]

Tell me that a typical round as an antag is more interesting without security than with security.

Either there are security and they're important for antags or security is dying and nobody plays it

you can't have both

[NanookoftheNorth]

Tell me that a typical round as an antag is more interesting without security than with security.

Either there are security and they're important for antags or security is dying and nobody plays it

you can't have both

I'm trying to argue the former not the latter. The point being that they are supposed to be important for antags. Otherwise, it's just a shit show without any resistance.

I think I am in the minority here on this subject. If everyone is content with what exists, and they don't mind small security teams, I guess changes don't need to be made.

[Karp]

It may work if you give it a cosmetic aspect and have higher tiered different outfits or something but i dunno if that would be a good idea

But i think the fundamental issue here is that there is no reason to play security in comparison to other roles short of personal reasoning, you do get enhanced equipment but compared to the captain or warden/head of security you lack any reason to have them, assistants have less oversight and more freedom to do what they want and people antagonize sec for absolutely no reason/previous shitty rounds with bad officers cause them to hate sec

You have to keep the station afloat but you have no reason to keep it afloat while scientists get cool toys, engineers can experiment and build shit if they want, cargo can buy and build whatever they want, and the civilian departments lack responsibility so they can do whatever they want as well.

[Reece]

I enjoy security as it is. I like investigating shit. I'd actually like it if we had more concrete rules for sec, as it is I basically play judge Dredd most of the time.

Give lawyers the ability to make 'warrants' that when flashed to a door opens it, have the department head stamp for 'unlimited search access' or have them refuse for 3-5 door openings.

Then punish people who abuse it. My main issue when playing security isn't antags or tiders, they're the goal. My issue is my fellow officers being homicidal maniacs who refuse to do basic investigation and legwork.

Maybe it's the autism in me but Sec for me would be improved 100% by some actual regulatory oversight, add a second department head as Internal Affairs or something.

Would I like SWAT gear, tacticool webbing and l33t tech for when tits go sideways? Fuck yes, do I think security as it is and the players as they are could be trusted to use them as and when they are needed? Fuck no.

[Dr_bee]

Another issue I've seen is that, the amount of security officers seems to be limited at roundstart. Several times over I had sec officer at "medium" preference, and ended up being the second lawyer while lawyer was was set to "low", and looking at the crew manifest we had 3 sec officers and 28 assistants. But when arriving mid-round I can join sec officer when they're already 5-8 no problems.

This is an interesting observation. maybe something as simple as increasing the amount of roundstart officers might help. It wont help lowpop but it might make highpop actually manageable