[POLL] Should paramedics be added to /tg/station?

TZK13 · Post by **TZK13** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:00 pm #37111

I've been thinking over the idea of porting over paramedics from /vg/station but I wanted to get some sort of opinion out of the community before I put more serious thought into it.

The immediate reason why not to would probably be that it's something that medical doctors can do and to create a job specifically for it would deprive MD's of what many in the community considers little stuff to do. To that I would say that paramedics just as on /vg/station would have access to a space suit, maint, external airlocks and a crew monitoring console, all things that are currently not trusted in the hands of five MD's. For most of those I would say that is a reasonable assumption with the exception of the crew monitoring console in my personal opinion.

They would also have pretty cool uniforms and some other nifty stuff like GPS units.

Another objection might be that this would put even more people under the CMO's command who already directly overlooks the most staff. I find that in many rounds medbay even with full staff is often fairly vacant with many MD's scattered elsewhere around the station. This can make it a pain to get medical treatment sometimes but with paramedics doing their job perhaps more MD's would be tempted to hang back in medbay to deal with the patients that the paramedics deliver.

This also stands in stark contrast to the position that some take where in jobs within medbay should be consolidated with MD's being some or all of the other positions similar to the way science works. Personally I disagree with that stance mostly on the basis that an MD's job should primarily be to heal people whether through sleepers, cryo or surgery. Compare that to letting how ever many MD's being able to waltz into virology at any moment to grab virus samples or get accidentally infected.

Finally another consideration might just be that because it's been so very, very long since a new job has been added that it might be difficult to convince people that it's worth it. Unlike some more "gimmicky" job ideas like reporters, psychiatrists, bee keepers etc. this would immediately serve a purpose that already exists and could perhaps need some support. When suit sensors state that somebody's dead in maint or space it can be difficult for them to be recovered without a good Samaritan with the access and equipment needed or an MD pestering people to get the equipment.

Ultimately I leave this up to first the public's opinion and then coderbus if this gets a positive response.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:13 pm #37125

PDA uplink to suit scanners would be most helpful.

WJohnston · Post by **WJohnston** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:19 pm #37126

You know med doctors are already kind of like paramedics. A huge improvement that would basically fill out this role would be to replace the console in the medbay lobby with a crew monitoring one like metastation. Medics could actually respond then.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:25 pm #37127

Why not convert medical doctors into paramedics instead since medical doctors are Literally Fucking Useless

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:15 pm #37155

paprika wrote:Why not convert medical doctors into paramedics instead since medical doctors are Literally Fucking Useless

Pretty much this. When I play MD I play paramedic anyway.
You're a glorified sleeper button pusher. Or the cryo opener after the guy that found you already fucked off after stuffing you in.

Nobody expects to be revived on the spot where they went down.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:32 pm #37170

TZK13 wrote:I've been thinking over the idea of porting over paramedics from /vg/station but I wanted to get some sort of opinion out of the community before I put more serious thought into it.

The immediate reason why not to would probably be that it's something that medical doctors can do and to create a job specifically for it would deprive MD's of what many in the community considers little stuff to do. To that I would say that paramedics just as on /vg/station would have access to a space suit, maint, external airlocks and a crew monitoring console, all things that are currently not trusted in the hands of five MD's. For most of those I would say that is a reasonable assumption with the exception of the crew monitoring console in my personal opinion.

They would also have pretty cool uniforms and some other nifty stuff like GPS units.

Another objection might be that this would put even more people under the CMO's command who already directly overlooks the most staff. I find that in many rounds medbay even with full staff is often fairly vacant with many MD's scattered elsewhere around the station. This can make it a pain to get medical treatment sometimes but with paramedics doing their job perhaps more MD's would be tempted to hang back in medbay to deal with the patients that the paramedics deliver.

This also stands in stark contrast to the position that some take where in jobs within medbay should be consolidated with MD's being some or all of the other positions similar to the way science works. Personally I disagree with that stance mostly on the basis that an MD's job should primarily be to heal people whether through sleepers, cryo or surgery. Compare that to letting how ever many MD's being able to waltz into virology at any moment to grab virus samples or get accidentally infected.

Finally another consideration might just be that because it's been so very, very long since a new job has been added that it might be difficult to convince people that it's worth it. Unlike some more "gimmicky" job ideas like reporters, psychiatrists, bee keepers etc. this would immediately serve a purpose that already exists and could perhaps need some support. When suit sensors state that somebody's dead in maint or space it can be difficult for them to be recovered without a good Samaritan with the access and equipment needed or an MD pestering people to get the equipment.

Ultimately I leave this up to first the public's opinion and then coderbus if this gets a positive response.

/vg/ has them because their medical system is entirely different. Don't open that can of worms again. I'm tired of having that thread.

Reimoo · Post by **Reimoo** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:33 am #37296

Our med system still needs a revamp before we start considering adding any more content to it.

And if we were to add paramedics, I would suggest simply making a room dedicated to them, but without a dedicated job slot. If an MD wants to dress up as one and play the role then they can do so.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:08 am #37308

Replace MDs entirely. CMO should be the only qualified surgeon (access to Surgery). MDs are not needed, paramedics that go where they needed is much better than MDs idling in the medbay.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:22 am #37332

Any further discussion of Baymed or any other suggestion NOT directly related to paramedics is going to get deleted.

I kind of feel that paramedic'ing (that's a word dammit) is something that medics should be able to do. We trust engineering with a hardsuit, might as well do the same with medical.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:41 am #37384

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Stop suggesting shit from other servers when there's no need to. MDs are fucking paramedics with different name. We could just improve the arsenal of things they use.

>improve the arsenal of things they use
>shit from other servers

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:56 am #37386

Paramedics would be redundant and just be tacking on a additional 3 or so Medical Doctors to the station roll.

Because our medical is very simplistic, there would be no difference between a MD and a Paramedic. Maybe if our medical system placed a higher emphasis on stabalizing patients before being able to heal them (from critical) then a paramedic would be useful.

Until then, just grab a roller bed and call yourself a paramedic.

kosmos · Post by **kosmos** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:22 pm #37408

What Steelpoint said. RIght now, absolutely no need.
If we get a medical system overhaul to make it more complex, sure.

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:40 pm #37409

Kinda fun idea, but if anything just throw some equipment at MDs. Thanks to robotics they are not even needed in medbay.

callanrockslol · Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:52 pm

Make a PDA cart thay can moniter suit sensors but limit the number, stuff the paramedic costumrs in a locker in med storage and there we go

We have enough identicle renamed jobs

Jalleo · Post by **Jalleo** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:21 pm #37670

If there was a third vote saying we need to expand medical as a system first then add this I would of voted that. I wont say anymore.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:42 pm #38464

Playing mainly on VG lately has lead me to the conclusion that paramedics are just medical doctors with maint access instead of surgery access, theres not much they can do that a doctor cant. The only difference is the maint access and space suit.

Put a medical RIG in medbay storage and call it a day.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:57 pm #38540

I don't like the idea of paramedic as its own job slot. I would prefer it as one aspect of a role that MD can play, akin to how a scientist can be a toxins researcher, a xeno-biologist, or an R&D guy.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:10 am #38561

Soontm

Hopefully defibs and the paramedic jackets will be ported before the feature freeze, but I'm going to need some quality spoon feeding Cheridan

Post by **oranges** » Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:54 am #38579

It would probably help if a paramedic needed to do more than just shoot people with inaprov and forcefeed em doctors delight

Metafive · Post by **Metafive** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:07 pm #39221

Most rounds I end up setting up cryo and then playing the Medical Doctor role as Paramedic/EMT anyhow. But a lot of times people will drag the injured to medical's doorstep on their own; I feel like the question becomes one of what tools and/or circumstances would make the response of a Paramedic different and/or more desirable than any random crew person dragging the injured there.

In solving this problem think it may be unavoidable that medical could use a little bit more complexity. But only a little bit. /tg/station is a pretty fast paced place when things get rolling, and the medical system needs to support that.

Or maybe just give us bitchin' EMT jackets instead of lab coats. I'd be okay with that.

edit/question: How off-topic would it be to discuss changes that could potentially enable the role more?

Post by **oranges** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:55 pm #39287

Go ahead, I think the primary idea hasn't really gone anywhere

Metafive · Post by **Metafive** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:43 am #39297

You asked for it, here comes the tl;dr.

I've actually thought about this a bit, since I enjoy playing Medical Doctor but I can definitely admit the role isn't exactly a complex one and often times you more or less end up a glorified sleeper door-opener. Many rounds I just end up taking bottles full of DD with me and inject people onsite, but even then I usually end up enjoying it more if only for being in the action more.

But, if anything, one of the most annoying problems is that even when doctors are willing to play the role of EMT, people don't even stop for them. I've had to chase after people dragging critical patients who may or may not be on fire trying to find room to type WAIT SLOW THE FUCK DOWN I HAVE SO MUCH MEDICINE/A FIRE EXTINGUISHER FOR THIS EXACT PROBLEM.

Of course, the other side of this is that in a server with a fast pace you don't really want arduous care or recovery procedures for commonplace injuries. I've had rounds in BayMed servers where I go a half hour without being able to get a cure for something that happened because someone accidentally clocked me with their wrench. So I think that draws a pretty clear line as far as pacing is concerned; if you're capable of making your way to medbay under your own strength, bar some sort of fringe circumstance, treatment should be a relatively quick outpatient procedure. Makes sense.

Critically injured patients, on the other hand... that could be the doctor's chance to shine. If I were to try and come up with something, and here's the part where I start talking out of my ass-

While I feel BayMed's dragging-a-critical-patient-who-isn't-stable-causes-severe-injury system is something of a wreck given the aforementioned arduousness of dealing with BayMed's complex injuries, I do wonder if it would work well enough if it was something more like significant suffocation damage/sharp oxygen loss increase as a general way of approximating stress on the body from being dragged. Roller bed negates it, of course, and maybe a wheelie chair cuts it by a portion if you can't get a roller bed. It calls for a specific sort of response but offers jury-rigged solutions in a pinch; administer inaprovaline to at least offer enough breathing room to get them to safety, babysit them with CPR every few steps if you HAVE to drag them, use those oxygen first aid kits to keep them stable and drag them slowly, et cetera. In any case, they're all a lot more time-consuming and work-intensive, and you'd more likely just want to call medics over and let THEM deal with it.

Or if you wanted suggestions for helpful items... I dunno, maybe a collapsible stretcher or something. fits in the backpack slot when not in use. Maybe a more-than-merely-cosmetic EMT coat that has a bit of cold resistance to it, to give them a tiny bit more wiggle room in (QUICKLY) getting someone out of a hull breach area or something without IMMEDIATELY coming down with a case of too-cold-and-slow-to-walk-against-space-wind.

I'll spare my thoughts on improving the in-medbay MD experience, this has gotten long enough for now. Though I will clarify that I agree, It'd be better to have 'Paramedic' be a way of playing Medical Doctor instead of being its own job.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:53 am #39298

How about removing the shittiest thing in medbay (sleepers) altogether

Even cryo is more complex to use than the sleepers

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:42 am #39343

>Put person in sleeper
>push every button but sleep toxin twice
>drag person into lobby and bid them a nice day

There's an argument to be made that one of the reasons why our server is so fast paced is because any amount of damage is easily made trivial if you can limp to medbay or be dragged there by a friend. Anything short of death is just a temporary inconvenience. Two sleepers, two cryo tubes, and usually at least one medibot crawling around renders the area in and around medbay this sort of zone of immortality. Tweaking different things like the availability of care, the severity of damage, or the speed of healing could all change that but it's a discussion for a broader topic about our medical system overall.

As far as paramedics go it would be nice to have more toys to play with to encourage MD's to go patrol the halls looking for injured. Typically I'll zip up my jacket, grab a gurney, one of each medkit, a belt, a HUD, gloves, mask, and knick a fire extinguisher from somewhere. Congrats you're good to go now.

Also remember to use that copious amount of healing goop on people aside from just the guys gasping in crit. I've found the still-living appreciate a spot-heal just as much as the near-death.

Having some kind of alert system that gives you a pop up when someone with active suit sensors dips below a threshold, and then tries to pinpoint their location for you would be really fucking rad. Not only for people trying to run to heal others but for someone maybe wanting to beat someone senseless and then use them for bait for unwitting paramedics. Stealth assassinating medical doctors is a real crap shoot. They rarely have any reason to go outside their department, what with the steady stream of "customers" coming in the front door.

Having more paramedic stuff might encourage more people to play MD well, and more people who play medbay to go run around the halls a bit more.

phil235 · Post by **phil235** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:17 pm #39560

Metafive wrote:Or if you wanted suggestions for helpful items... I dunno, maybe a collapsible stretcher or something. fits in the backpack slot when not in use.

Roller beds are now collapsible just like in baystation and you can fit folded bodybags in your backpack already.

On topic: No I don't think we need paramedics, but as others have said MDs being encouraged to go out of the medbay to find patients would be great.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:18 pm #39585

By the way you can re-fold bodybags that are empty and closed by dragging the closed bag onto you, or maybe it was into your hand slot. I can't remember specifically but it is possible.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:36 pm #39629

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5564

Here's shit

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:45 am #39658

Seems very powerful, though I suppose that's the point. What was your opinion on making it take up the backpack slot? (Not sure if you made your opinion on this subject known in one of the posts that were apparently deemed offtopic.)

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:23 am #39663

It does take up the backpack slot and has only about 10 charges before needed a battery recharge. Keep in mind even failures cause the defib to drain battery, and it fails if the corpse owner is not in the corpse, and it also gives brain damage if the person revived has been sitting long enough.

You need to hold the paddles that detach from the defib and wield them (like a fireaxe or spear) to use them properly, and the process takes about 5 seconds total which can be interrupted.

I might even raise the time of the point of no return (you can't revive people past this) if it proves to be TOO underpowered, which is what I'm suspecting. Medical doctors are basically made irrelevant by sleepers and medibots, and this is my response to that. A powerful tool that only they will be using most of the time that requires a bit of skill to use.

Even if random greyshirt #453 picks up a defib and revives his friend with it, his friend will probably die because all it does is jump people back into crit (with braindamage most of the time) so medical treatment is still required, it just bypasses the long, tedious process of cloning if a medical doctor is skilled, quick, and available enough. Should make the MD role more of a 'leave medical and look for hurt people' kind of a job, but it will still offer the 'sit on your ass at the desk' appeal that some people like of MD. Me personally? I like the excitement and danger of potentially risking my own life to save people instead of hauling corpses back to cloning.

Geneticists hulk-hunt most of the round anyway and from what I've heard, find the cloning part of genetics more of a chore, so I hope I'm not stepping on their toes here by giving the MDs a way to invalidate a large portion of their job. But medical is supposed to work together anyway, so..

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:29 am #39692

Uh, reviving 10 people from fucking death is too powerful no matter how many and what slots does it take.

>drag corpses into medbay
>someone defibs all of them in a minute
>inject heals
>worst case inject alkysine as well
10 people revived.

Cloning process is long and tedious for a reason, you know. Because it bring people back from the dead. It should take skill to revive a few people in this way, not 10. Even one person revived in this way shouldn't be too easy. Make it revive people at random, not all the time. Add advance defib to R&D which refuses to work if the patient is impossible to revive so you don't waste time. Clothes should prevent defib from being used if they don't yet.

Oh, by the way, I'm not sure if you prevent putting 9 corpses around one's character and using defib 9 times like crayons and stuff, do_after doesn't care, so you may want to look into that.

But honestly, I think it should take skill to revive a couple of people in this manner, not a fucking dozen.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:56 am #39700

Not until somebody de-shittifies our medical system

Post by **MMMiracles** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:28 am #39704

Maybe nerf it to only be able to revive 2-3 max at first, but allow it's parts to be upgraded by RnD to be more efficient with its cell use/upgrade the cell.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:03 am #39707

10 is way too much, especially if it notifies them like the cloner does.
Zap em to notify, wait 10 seconds, zap em again.
That's five people before recharging.

And five minutes of crit + three minutes soft death is more than enough.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:03 pm #39728

If you are going to add Paramedics then i want GPs and clinic rooms.

Metafive · Post by **Metafive** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:23 pm #39735

Even so this is a pretty cool start. I've always wanted to see defibs in SS13 if only for the cliche value alone.

Besides which, if there are balance concerns, I see enough factors here that can be adjusted. (Revival time, charges, maybe make it so the defib needs to have a costly replacement made in R&D when it runs out...) Plus, it would make for a fine traitor objective.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:11 pm #39736

Malkevin wrote:10 is way too much, especially if it notifies them like the cloner does.
Zap em to notify, wait 10 seconds, zap em again.
That's five people before recharging.

And five minutes of crit + three minutes soft death is more than enough.

The defib can also fail if they're wearing armor.

Cham · Post by **Cham** » Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:58 am #40054

The problem with paramedic is that it exposes the shitshow many of the jobs on-station are due to the nature of non-extended gamemodes. So few medical protocols are followed that the entire department becomes a clusterfuck. Dead bodies being left in the waiting room, nobody using body bags, MDs just wandering the station, absentee CMOs, and mad scientist chemists keep things from moving smoothly. What'd most likely happen with paramedics is a lot of underuse coupled with getting beaten up or killed for your equipment. That, or dragging players back to medbay only for them to sit in the lobby until they die, adding another 5 or 6 bloodstains to the already crimson red waiting room that the janitor ignores so often. That's what we need. More janitors.