Goon Chemistry & The Codebase Drug Ban

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:05 am #46979

PSA:
so fun fact about the goonchem stuff: apparently right after I left the discussion about goonchem being ported that was a few days ago, the important goon coders showed up and vetoed it, and I wasn't informed. I didn't find out about this until about 5 minutes ago after asking for clarification about some chems that were on the border between goon injoke and misc. content

so PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't use this code if you find the pr

kthx

Intigracy · Post by **Intigracy** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:11 am #46980

Steelpoint wrote:This might lead to a lot of broken/exploitable things occurring.

Personally I think it would be far more efficient to redo chemistry from the ground up instead of sewing on other servers chem code.

All there is to say.

AnonymousNow · Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:12 am

I, for one, am always happy to see features added, rather than removed.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:15 am #46983

Please no more instant healing things, medkits are awful enough as is.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:17 am #46984

Intigracy wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:This might lead to a lot of broken/exploitable things occurring.

Personally I think it would be far more efficient to redo chemistry from the ground up instead of sewing on other servers chem code.
All there is to say.

No, that isn't all there is to say, because that's really vague. Give some examples of broken/exploitable things.
Plus, if you think the chemicals are broken and need rebalancing, guess what: We can re-balance them.

Fun fact of the day:
Goon chemistry is actually still running on the backbone of chemistry that we still have. They didn't rewrite it from the ground up. They simply swapped out the chemicals and introduced some new features.

There's no reason to redo chemistry's backbone system of reagents and reagent_containers when what we have works.

@lumipharon this in theory will replace bruise packs, ointment, and star trek chemicals as a whole, and the only really instant healing things are styptic and silver sulf.

Saintish · Post by **Saintish** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:24 am #46986

Can confirm that Goonchem, Iamgoofball, and Cogwerks are all rad. Fuck the drug ban.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:16 am #46991

iamgoofball wrote:I'd like to petition to get this reverted, or at least waivered for the goonchem PR so we can have a good 1/4th of goon chemistry not need to be cut out.

This is a video game where I can brutally saw a man's leg off, beat him to death with it, take out his brain, clone him into a new body, gib the old body, salvage the meat, and forcefeed it to the new body.

But drugs are apparently too bad. I can't exactly figure out why this is a thing, and the maintainers I have asked said they don't know exactly why other then it being a rule, and they suggested making a petition.

If the worry is that people will just get high on drugs 24/7 when it comes out, yeah, they might, but people (ab)use any new feature 24/7. People were using telesci 24/7 when it first came out. People were using rollies 24/7 when it first came out.

Pretty sure it isn't the drugs part that is bad, is that we already have like 30 people all doing the "I'm Walter White lel look at my so clever reference to the TV show with my mindbreaker toxin pills! Hurhurhurhur aren't I such a fun guy?"

And then nobody does their fucking job in chemistry. Again.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:23 am #47004

yeah, maybe 1 of the chemists a round will make mindbreaker toxin and only mindbreaker toxin, but the other 1-2 will actually make medicines right now.

Yeah, sure, if this gets merged and goes live the first few rounds will probably have a shitton of people swarming chemistry trying out the chemicals, the medicines, the drugs, and shit

and there will be a few early on rounds where they mass produce meth like no tomorrow, but this happens with all new features.

People will want to play with it.

People always want to play with new features.

Just give it a few rounds to calm down and things will go normal.

AnonymousNow · Post by **AnonymousNow** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:39 am #47014

Hold on. I'm resistant to the loss of bruise packs and ointment, as they're not only the current backbone of an efficient medical force, but also important for medical emergencies in their parts in kits all over the station.

You guys already nerfed my medical robots. Don't get rid of my bruisepacks and ointment.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:27 am #47020

Styptic powder patches are effectively the same thing as bruise packs tho, same with silver sulf patches and ointment.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:35 am #47049

I stand by my earlier statement. Not only may there be potential broken chem combinations but there will be now double the amount of chemicals, with completely different creation requirements as well as many duplicate or redundant similar chemicals and recipes.

I still think we would be better off making up our own chem system instead of saying "Look guys! We have Goon's Chemistry and some our own!".

We're stuffing two different systems together and seeing if it works.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:06 pm #47067

AnonymousNow wrote:I, for one, am always happy to see features added, rather than removed.

thank you for your useful contribution to this thread.

i disagree with goofballs pr for several reasons:
1. theres no particular reason we should have this except for "its a goon port"
2. our chemistry system needs to be rewritten, and just adding some dumb heater won't make it the littlest bit more interesting.
3. almost nothing in our current system uses the different ingestion methods, while goon uses them intensive. it'd get really confusing
4. a lot of these chemicals don't do anything new. they heal slightly faster at the expense of dealing a little amount of other damage #wow #whoa. our medical system is so simple that we're basically at the saturation level for chems.

also cogwerks is rad and so is goonchem but just because its rad on goon wont make it rad here.
(goofball isn't rad because his code is shit :^])

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:12 pm #47071

I don't know how much it is different from our current one, but I believe it's mostly just recipes?

I think we need something different, something that involves experimentation and not just mixing infinite chems over and over again.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:58 pm #47084

Turns out goofball wants to gut our chemistry system and replace it with goon chem. Worth pointing out.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:45 pm #47108

I dunno, i think it sounds cool.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:38 pm #47119

meh, ive changed my opinion

phil235 · Post by **phil235** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:05 pm #47130

iamgoofball wrote: TG chemists right now have tricord for healing everything, or a string of chemicals that are just "the last chem but better". and that's it. Kinda boring.
Goon chemists have a wider variety of healing chemicals, such as Salbutamol and Perfluorodecalin. Salbutamol heals oxy loss and shit, but Perfluorodecalin heals a shitton of it with a downside: You can't talk for a little while. It can stabilize patients faster then inaprovaline ever could, but they can't talk for a short while afterwards, so you have to actually think about what you're forcefeeding that guy and not just grabbing a healall pill off the counter, shoving it down his throat, and watching him jump right back up and calling it a night.

Does that mean you're planning to nerf/remove Tricordrazine? (none of those new healing chems will be used if we can use tricordrazine instead)

Post by **MMMiracles** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:26 pm #47136

I think hes planning on scrapping a lot of TG's current chems in exchange for goon's, which I'm totally down for considering their chem system is 10x cooler than ours.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:11 pm #47146

Well if this doesn't happen our current chem is going to stay like this for a long time. Change is good. People can sit back and make theories on how this will fuck up everything but at the end of the day we won't know until we try.

Miauw wrote:2. our chemistry system needs to be rewritten, and just adding some dumb heater won't make it the littlest bit more interesting.

Miauw and everyone else who is saying this needs to explain what this even means. What is there to rewrite?

AnonymousNow wrote:You guys already nerfed my medical robots. Don't get rid of my bruisepacks and ointment.

Bruisepacks and ointments are shit. Literally no point in chem changes if those stick around in there current form.

Saegrimr wrote:And then nobody does their fucking job in chemistry. Again.

Chemists never do their job. Before and after poly acid.

Why was the drug ban put in place anyway? Do we blame HG? I feel like blaming HG. Drugs are one of the most tame things in game.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:38 pm #47155

AnonymousNow wrote:Hold on. I'm resistant to the loss of bruise packs and ointment, as they're not only the current backbone of an efficient medical force, but also important for medical emergencies in their parts in kits all over the station.

You guys already nerfed my medical robots. Don't get rid of my bruisepacks and ointment.

I know right? God forbid medics have a more complicated job than a school nurse.

Anyway, never played with goon chem but I've heard its misuse can lead to !!FUN!!, so I'm all for it

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:40 pm #47156

Agree on bruisepacks and ointment being shit. Chemistry is fairly useless as a medical job as long as burn and brute can be instazapped away. Fund this, and then revert it if it is shit. Simple as that.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:43 pm #47157

The instant on touch goon chems are functionally bruisepacks/ointment. Or rather, you adds said chems to a patch, and they are bruisepacks/ointment. So that's ok.

That said, I'd rather we have baymed (NOT get hit once and all your bones shatter, just the overall system), but too many people oppose that everytime it gets brought up so, goon chem seems alright.

Intigracy · Post by **Intigracy** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:53 pm #47174

Baymed would be great if someone could code it for our server.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:08 am #47196

Baymed is good but for a few things. Firstly it is really easy to get internal bleeding and broken ribs. When they happens you essentially die if you move too much. The second is that most damage needs to be fixed with surgery. I think that more surgery is a good thing, but given the frequency with which people toolbox eachother to crit, there would always be a huge backlog and people would be waiting around a whole lot.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:49 am #47201

The two points there would be that A: We can have their system, but can easily play with the numbers, making it easier/harder to break bones etc.
And B: Maybe people will be less inclined to be an improbably suicidal spess man because they're no longer a click away from full health.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:30 am #47203

vg has a similar playstyle to us, they have bay med - it works there

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:48 am #47211

This is not the baymed discussion thread.

Intigracy · Post by **Intigracy** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:23 am #47225

It's entirely relevant.

I'd rather have baymed than goonchem.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:26 am #47226

iamgoofball wrote:This is not the baymed discussion thread.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:19 am #47259

Alright, we get it. Some people would rather do something like Bay-style medical as an alternative. It's ok to say that, but let's not divert attention away from the real topic, Goon-style chemistry.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:35 am #47262

There was a discussion on coderbus last night on looking at a alternative to our chemistry, the idea is to make our own unique system instead of simply taking someone else's chemistry design. Several of us when on piratepad and wrote up our own """""Design Document""""". There are two general ideas that came out of that discussion.

Of the two ideas, mine was described as being more conservative and would easily fit in with our current job system and be easier to get into. WB's idea is more radical but opens up more options for expansion. Here are the two ideas.

Mine

Steelpoints playground of fun
GREAT SPELLING MISTAKES ABOUND
This is all on the spot, don't expect perfection.

Example: Round start with several chemicals
Chem A, B, C, D, etc.

Combine chemicals to test for outcomes, for example placing Chem A with Chem B would create Chem AB. Placing Chem AB inside a "testing machine" will hint to several possible combinations and outcomes.

In this case, the machine states that Chem AB can be comnbined with two (max of three) other reagents. In this case Silver and Oxygen.

If we combine Chem AB with Oxygen, we get Dexalin Plus. (This is different every round, another round we might get Clonexdone).

As your researching these tier 2 chemicals (Tier 1 chem's are the crappy round start one's you can make from the get go) you might discover a Tier 3 chemical base. In our example this would be Chem AB+. Tier 3 chems are used to create tier 3 chemicals, the highest tier you can get (Tricord, Poly Acid, etc).

HOWEVER! You need to combine two tier 3 chems and one reagent togther in order to discover a tier 3 chemical. So you would need, for example, Chem AB+, Chem BD+ and Silver to discover poly acid!

Tier 1 chems should be named after real life chemicals, with tier 2 and 3 being given the more futuristic names.

And WB's idea

WBS PLAYGROUND

The way I had this worked out in an old design doc was to have chemists basically fill the role of a pharmaceutical RnD lab, they'd have to create recipes/formulas based on experimentation (organic chemistry wooooo) which could then be produced very easily be a machine (or a separate job pharmacist).

The pharmacy would start off with very basic chems, eg 1 burn heal, 1 tox healh, 1 stimulant, etc. These would be very weak, and while suitable for triage, not really desirable for a whole round.

So the research chemists would be relied upon to turn out advance medical chems, along with the experimental ones for things that wouldn't have easy/any cures at round start.

Pros of this approach:
- Less tedious busy work involved
- Easier access to chems from medbay (important in baymed)
- More fun
- More involved, deeper than just "mix X and Y from a wiki recipe"

This can also easily segue into a system for industrial chems: for example, engineers could have a industrial chem lab where they mix advance lubricants, fuels, silicate for winnows, acids, etc. Better lubes would be used as buffs for cyborgs and bots and fuels would improve welders and possible jet packs. And naturally all of this would be very interesting to traitors and other antags.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:40 pm #47311

I do lots of chemistry irl, and i think it would be breddy cool to have some kind of instrumentation and glassware, making it more than just push button to place chemical in beaker. Super complex glass apparatus is like the iconic chemist's bread and butter.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:39 pm #47340

Delicious wrote:Adding some neat shit to a stale part of the game. Seems too fun for the maintainers to pull.

From what I saw they (Miauw and MrPerson) do want to see something better and more fun come out of chemistry. I won't put words in their mouth but I think if a good system is/was developed it would get added to the game.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:11 pm #47438

I like steelpoint's idea.

It feels kind of like how virology and genetics WANT to be but are just too RNG to compare.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:05 pm #47474

Steel's idea is neat, but it's way more 'experimental/science departmenty' then medical. Also having to do research to make important round start stuff like clonex would be pretty bleh.

I would lie a system where you have your fixed, known recipies (but might be more then just mix X with Y, titration and shit, oh lawd, university chemistry, it's all coming back to me). But then on top of that there would be the research to figure out how to make the more exotic shit (think goon secret recipies, only rather then secret vary from round to round. Or something.).

Goon does have a lot of neat chems, but yeah, I don't particularly thin simply copying the whole thing is ideal.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:58 pm #47489

Why stop at titrations? Lets have soxhlet extractors, reflux condensers, distillation apparatus! I guess i like organic chemistry a bit too much.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:06 am #47554

Steelpoint wrote:
Delicious wrote:Adding some neat shit to a stale part of the game. Seems too fun for the maintainers to pull.
From what I saw they (Miauw and MrPerson) do want to see something better and more fun come out of chemistry. I won't put words in their mouth but I think if a good system is/was developed it would get added to the game.

I haven't even looked at the pull yet. I have fears about player confusion and turning this into yet another "look it up on the wiki" job. I know it already is, but this'll just ramp it up 1000-fold. Having said that, I'm not against pulling it (especially because, again, I haven't looked at it yet!), I just don't think this will really change much of anything.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:47 am #47561

It actually might cause less confusion if more things reacted different based on the method of their application.

Right now the only thing that does this is Polyacid, so people are confused a lot as to why eating polyacid does practically nothing whereas spraying people with it is almost instant death.

fleure · Post by **fleure** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:09 am #47562

Whatever happened to https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9 ? Numbers had some p cool ideas.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:38 pm #47573

we should have this

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:40 pm #47574

fleure wrote:Whatever happened to https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9 ? Numbers had some p cool ideas.

Hasn't Numbers been coding that for "years"? And isn't that part of the reason why chemistry is kinda' stagnated?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:46 pm #47575

Numbers had always had a very close attachment to chemistry and tended to shut down attempts to change it and had been in a very lengthy process of making a new chemistry system.

So Akkryls is correct in stating that Numbers is responsible for the chemistry stagnation to a extent.

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:51 pm #47578

Steelpoint wrote:Numbers had always had a very close attachment to chemistry and tended to shut down attempts to change it and had been in a very lengthy process of making a new chemistry system.

So Akkryls is correct in stating that Numbers is responsible for the chemistry stagnation to a extent.

I completely understand some people may want to stop others from making code changes if they are working on some big overhaul, but I swear Chemistry is essentially the same as when I first joined /tg/station three years ago. The only real changes were that Sillicate was removed (God I miss that stuff) and some nerfs to some of the harmful chems like Chloral and P.acid.

Was there any ever evidence of Numbers' work on it?

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:13 pm #47586

Akkryls wrote: I completely understand some people may want to stop others from making code changes if they are working on some big overhaul, but I swear Chemistry is essentially the same as when I first joined /tg/station three years ago. The only real changes were that Sillicate was removed (God I miss that stuff) and some nerfs to some of the harmful chems like Chloral and P.acid.

Was there any ever evidence of Numbers' work on it?

There's a branch on github with his 'work' on it. Mostly, it consists of changing del() to qdel() in hydroponics items, adding heating plates that don't work, and adding a lot of superfluous chem defines that do nothing.

Essentially, nothing useful came out of it. It was just Number's way to attempting to stay relevant in the face of opposition against him, because everyone was saying he didn't do jack crap (and he didn't).

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:39 pm #47591

iamgoofball wrote: Goon chemists have Liquid Dark Matter explosions that suck everything in the room into 1 tile to assassinate people, or they can use Sorium and Chlorine Trifluoride Foam to make a station melting foam that lights anything it touches on fire and sends it flying, or they can use Krokodil Smoke to make everyone die of having their skin fall off. Hell of a lot more cooler then just polyacid, right?

That's not in your PR, though. All that you're trying to port here is a handful of medicines and also lol feces drugs and krokodil so random maek u a zbomie. Don't try and make things sound cooler than they are to put pressure on maintainers.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:44 pm #47593

I still think this is a bad idea.

While I appreciate the effort put into coding and porting this, I believe we would be far better off with a chemistry overhaul akin to the two suggestions I presented earlier in this thread. I'm just wary of putting two separate chemistry systems into the game and then gutting our version.

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:08 pm #47595

Steelpoint wrote:I still think this is a bad idea.

While I appreciate the effort put into coding and porting this, I believe we would be far better off with a chemistry overhaul akin to the two suggestions I presented earlier in this thread. I'm just wary of putting two separate chemistry systems into the game and then gutting our version.

From a layman's code view, shoving together two systems from two seperate code branches hasn't worked in the past. See: Bay Dismemberment, Bay blood trails... EVERYTHING ported from Bay pretty much. It's likely to cause more problems due to code differences. (The one thing I can think of which hasn't broken everything was the window update?)
From my player view, I would like something fun and interesting to do which doesn't break the server with runtimes for weeks, which links back to the potential code conflicts.

Now I'm not saying "You can't do this, it'll suck because other people have tried and it sucked", it's just I'm incredibly wary from past ports but I'm still interested in having new stuff to play around with in Chemistry, since it's a job I enjoy doing and producing ALL the chems, not just Tricord and mindbreaker toxin.

In short: If you're going to do it, just be careful and test it as much as possible on a private server to make sure it actually works, and also make sure to get people to test it to make sure it's fun.

(God this post feels circular in my points, I'm bad at being coherent)

ExplosiveCrate · Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:26 pm

Pretty sure it didn't work because of shitty porting/oversights. Ported baymed referenced things that weren't in the code and blood trails were missing whatever made them stop.