on the topics of medbay and death

A place to record your ideas for the game.

Moderators: MisterPerson, Code Maintainers

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

on the topics of medbay and death

Postby oranges » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:54 pm #471719

Point: Death should be a meaningful experience

Death has to be a serious event for players, because it leads to an increased sense of tension and criticality in decision making, which makes you feel more involved in the game and should hopefully make you feel more tense in dangerous situations.

Yes, I recognize that there are issues with people dying and having to leave the round for very long periods of time, so we do want to temper this point with options to get back in the round. However, I am of the strong belief that's it better to do this with ghost roles or significant gameplay changes like borging/becoming a pod person. These have significant ongoing gameplay impacts for you that make the death still meaningful, while allowing you to engage in the round again. I'm not convinced that simply losing gear, or your equipment on you is enough of a change to make death a meaningful experience that you can build some level of investment and roleplay around your character with, which was why I was unhappy with the prescanner and autoclone system and when 4dplanner made that PR saw an opportunity to change it.

In general I believe that the formalization of cloning from random bug to full game mechanic many eons ago started a bit of a trend towards a trivialization of death that I would like to reverse in order to increase engagement with your character and their general health and wellbeing.

I dont' know if we're necessarily at a point where removing cloning would be considered acceptable, but I wanted to open a discussion on that front. Do people see a future where cloning does not exist, and death is a permanent experience? Another option is to make traumas and internal damage (See rest of this post) carry across a clone, so that it isn't yet another way to avoid actually requiring medical staff to do some work other than put people into machines.

Point: Our current medical system and damage system is somewhat lacking still

I'd also like to see input on our current medical system, we all know it's a bit weak and people usually just use the sleepers/cyro to resolve all issues! How do people feel about introducing some requirement for actual surgery? (broken bones and internal organ damage)?

I thought xhuis XDTM (oh my god sorry) made a good attempt at this with https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/41716 and I would like to see that PR finished as it would be a good change to improve the medbay staff experience by making the crew rely on them a bit more.

One thing to be aware of is that I would be extremely unlikely to add any kind of chemical/science based system for repair of internal damage, as I want it to be something that requires medbay involvement. So I would probably moot the removal of the Viscosine chem XDTM added, made from 1 Synthflesh, 2 Carbon, and 1 Bicaridine. Rapidly heals internal damage (and only that) while the patient is in a resting position.

The next thing I would like to see is a system of emergency traumas, such as broken bones, critical bleeding internally etc, that have surgeries required to fix them. These would be the caused by huge amounts of each damage type occurring in a short space of time, and would remain even after the underlying damage type is healed through chems or cyro or sleepers.

Examples
Brute - Broken Bones - requiring a splint and rendering a limb unusable (maybe merge with limb damage mechanic?)
Burn - Dead skin - requires a skin graft, makes you more susceptible to diseases etc
Toxin - Liver failure
Internal - Critical internal bleeding - requires surgery to stem the bleeding and replacement of lost blood (on second thoughts, internal damage causing long term damage to all body organs that reduces their effectiveness is a better mechanic for that.
etc

These would lead hopefully to some more engaging out comes for medbay staff to manage, while not getting in the way if people are only slowly taking damage.

Emergency Traumas should cause pain to build up, once pain builds up past a point, you lose conciousness for a short period, and then the pain counter is reset and builds up again.
This is just so you can't run around with emergency trauma's on you without seeking medical attention for them, and should be manageable for short periods (10-15 minutes) with pain pills, so you can book a time to hit surgery.



User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby oranges » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:59 pm #471721

A further extension of the internal damage system could come later, where having internal damage could lead to damage of each organ, degrading it's functionality over time and then eventually killing you.

at that point internal damage would not even be a 0-100 range, but just a 0-x range where what eventually kills you is your internal organs and your brain becoming degraded to the point of death.

These would require surgeries to replace the organs with healthy ones (grown by medbay, or robotic)

I would prefer to stage this change with the other, so people can get used to needing surgery in a round more often, and raising doctor player surgery skill levels to the necessary point, before we add this.

User avatar
subject217
Github User
 
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:27 pm
Byond Username: Subject217
Github Username: subject217

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby subject217 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:00 pm #471722

oranges wrote:Do people see a future where cloning does not exist, and death is a permanent experience?

There are a number of methods already ingame for bringing people back from the dead aside from cloning, and any one of these could be buffed, modified, made more relevant, et cetera if cloning were gone. Furthermore, cloning is by far the least engaging of all these methods, requiring very little input or depth or nuance. You simply throw a corpse in the machine and press the button and either it works or it doesn't.

It's important to acknowledge cloning as a weak mechanic in itself even if you don't believe death should be PERMANENT ROUND REMOVAL.
thankfully former admin
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=20553

User avatar
Anonmare
 
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: Blighty
Byond Username: Anonmare

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Anonmare » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:06 pm #471726

Surgery would need to be a lot quicker/streamlined if it would be a requirement for repairing significant injuries.

I've made this point before but our surgery is slow as molasses and can't handle multiple procedures at once, which makes it somewhat boring and dull.
Bay's a dirty word but their surgery is lightning quick in comparison to ours, especially if you know what you're doing, and can finish multiple, differing operations in under a minute.

Cloning would also need to be kept a handle on as well. Euthanasia and cloning is still the best treatment for dealing with severe radiation poisoning for one.
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby oranges » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:09 pm #471727

the Surgery for internal damage is explicitly very quick and I don't at this time envision huge numbers of emergency traumas being applied to a person at once, needing 20+ surgeries or something.

and yes, I would almost certainly at the very least make brain traumas and internal damage + emergency traumas go through cloning

User avatar
Anonmare
 
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: Blighty
Byond Username: Anonmare

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Anonmare » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:12 pm #471730

How would robo organs be affected by this? Would toxin damage still cause a liver to fail given enough time? If so, more, less or equal to an organic liver?

Would long-term O2 deprivation cause internal damage?
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby oranges » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:14 pm #471731

Robotic organs would not be affected by toxin damage, perhaps they could be affected by radiation itself instead?

Internal damage would still damage robotic organs (delicate machines getting bashed and beaten about in environments they didn't expect)

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby oranges » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:16 pm #471733

long term O2 deprivation should cause lung organ damage, but that is a stage 2 thing imo.

User avatar
Anonmare
 
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: Blighty
Byond Username: Anonmare

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Anonmare » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:19 pm #471736

If an organ takes the maximum damage possible, or thereabouts, will the usual surgery still fix them? Or will a transplant be absolutely necessary?
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
Ayy Lemoh
 
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:58 pm
Byond Username: Jerry Derpington

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:20 pm #471737

You'd have to nerf some antags otherwise some gamemodes would just be impossible for the crew to have a chance of survival.

Nuke ops is the main one. It's hard to fight ballistic guns if one shot = 500 broken bones and internal bleeding.

User avatar
lmwevil
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:09 pm
Byond Username: Lmwevil

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby lmwevil » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:27 pm #471740

based oranges knows where the server needs to go

death certainly feels most meaningful if to be revived you lose identity though, the idea of organs taking more consistent damage is also great

User avatar
BeeSting12
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:11 am
Location: 'Murica
Byond Username: BeeSting12
Github Username: BeeSting12

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby BeeSting12 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:30 pm #471741

Just a few traumas that could be added to the medical system without much thought put into balance etc.

Broken Bones- Makes the affected limb effectively amputated but it's still there. Torso broken bones make breathing hard and painful. Hits on the head can break jaw or the skull, making it difficult to talk and causing massive brain damage/unconciousness respectively. Could be fixed w/ splints, casts, boots, some chemical, surgery, etc. Splints would be the more ghetto option, maybe crutches could be added to be used to negate the slow down.

Infection: Periodically deals toxin damage, caused by getting hit by bloody/unclean shit. Maybe there'd be three levels of cleanliness: sterile, dirty, and neutral, with dirty being a nearly guaranteed infection (covered in blood, dirt, grime, etc), neutral having a small chance, and sterile being impossible to get an infection from. Solved by cleaning the wound and taking antibiotics.

Cuts: Ranges from paper cuts to bigass chainsaw gashes. Paper cuts can be solved with a bandaid and cause minor bleeding at most (not even .01% of your body's blood.) Goes up to cuts solved by gauze to something that requires stitches and immediately soaks a bandage. A subtype could be a cut artery, which rapidly drains blood and needs a tourniquet, which can be homemade with a variety of objects (screwdrivers, sticks, rods, crowbars, etc. just common sticklike objects) and an article of clothing.

Internal Organ Damage:
Each organ has a level of damage it can take before failing completely. For our purposes, let's say 100. At around 25dmg, negative effects would be noticed (minor O2 damage from lungs/heart not functioning as well, difficulty digesting food, difficulty filtering toxins, etc.) The negative effects scale up until 100 when the organ completely fucks up and fails. The consequences depend on the organ: a heart and lungs are a bit more essential than a stomach, but the stomach can still be deadly. Anything below 75 can be fixed with surgery and medicine, after that, a replacement is needed.

Cloning should be gated behind high level research and require more intervention from medical throughout and after the process. More than chucking them into cryo and giving mannitol: Maybe a neural remapping minigame or something idk.
Edward Sloan, THE LAW
Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
Borgasm, Cyborg
Spoiler:
OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
oranges wrote:Bee sting is honestly the nicest admin, I look forward to seeing him as a headmin one day


[2020-05-21 01:21:48.923] SAY: Crippo/(Impala Chainee) "Shaggy Voice - She like... wants to get Eiffel Towered bro!!" (Brig (125, 166, 2))

hows my driving?

User avatar
iamgoofball
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
Byond Username: Iamgoofball
Github Username: Iamgoofball

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby iamgoofball » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:37 pm #471747

how much can we ripoff rimworld and DF before it's too much?

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby oranges » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:38 pm #471748

Anonmare wrote:If an organ takes the maximum damage possible, or thereabouts, will the usual surgery still fix them? Or will a transplant be absolutely necessary?

A transplant is required.

Ayy Lemoh wrote:You'd have to nerf some antags otherwise some gamemodes would just be impossible for the crew to have a chance of survival.

Nuke ops is the main one. It's hard to fight ballistic guns if one shot = 500 broken bones and internal bleeding.

that's overstating it, getting blown up by c4 would leave you with traumas, getting shot to crit would cause traumas and give medbay staff internal damage to deal with.

Getting shot once or twice would not.

Tlaltecuhtli
 
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:16 am
Byond Username: Tlaltecuhtli

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:06 am #471783

make bones "organs" and have surgery to repair or remove em

Tlaltecuhtli
 
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:16 am
Byond Username: Tlaltecuhtli

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:09 am #471784

personally i would prefer broken bones internal bleeding etc being like "debuffs" that you can keep at bay with chems slowing down their damage but you ll need a surgeon to fix definetly or you ll die anyway

User avatar
Shadowflame909
 
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here
Byond Username: Shadowflame909

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:24 am #471798

I may be in the minority here but, I hope we'd get some changes to Lavaland once more. If this were to happen.

Like, I believe it'd be best to restore old-legion cores, but make them usable on lavaland only, and remove the restorative serum entirely.

Mainly because miners would be shit out of luck with the perma-death + Shitload of broken limbs and internal bleeding.


But if not, then at least Medbay would never run out of work.


Also, to end this off on another note. I'd like to suggest that if we really want to make medbay important. We should lower the chances of ghetto surgeries from working, and raise the chance of them giving "infections" for not being in a clean and sterile environment.

Maybe have anyone with the roundstart medbay job, have a higher chance of doing a Ghetto-Surgery then others? If things get so drastic. Like if someone buys a 11 tc syndibomb.

Spoiler:
Image

ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

User avatar
Not-Dorsidarf
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
Location: Space outside the Brig
Byond Username: Dorsidwarf

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:30 am #471804

Does this mean that people will stop responding to PRs nerfing insta-win strategies with "i ded"
Image
Image

User avatar
zxaber
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:00 am
Byond Username: Zxaber

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby zxaber » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:36 am #471815

I don't think cloning should be removed. It's currently the best solution we have to murderboners (especially low-pop murderboners), and the fact that it's mostly hands off and can be figured out by basically anyone is one of its most important features. You have a max of two roboticists and two botanists; if they're dead, their respective revive mechanics will be used by basically nobody. On the other hand, Botany gives you a fully functioning body when podded, and being borgs offers new perks in trade of losing others, so both can be considered better than cloning. Now that we've removed pre-scanning, I think cloning is in a good spot in relation to the feeling of death; if your body is hidden or spaced or you just get gibbed, there's a good chance you're not coming back. So traitors with assassination targets can take a bit of effort to keep the body from being found, while people just murdering the crew will usually leave bodies findable which helps the crew recover after the murderer is gone.


I think surgery to fix injuries could be neat. Part of why playing Roboticist is so fun is that you're pretty much the only person that bothers fixing borgs. So you end up feeling like you're really helping out, because the borgs will come to you first when there's a problem. Meanwhile, with our current medical, self-healing is the name of the game, and you can ask anyone that happens to be there to hit a few buttons on a cryo chamber or sleeper. If medical meant surgery, then it's probable that medical doctors would get some more love, rather than being a "watching paint dry" simulator. We do have this already, in a very small way, with the appendicitis random event, since that also requires surgery.


If you do want to make cloning not just a fix-all, you could make it copy over the existing flaws of the body it clones. That is, broken bones, missing arms, and the rest get replicated on the clone. That way, there's still surgery to be done to get the person back into tip top shape, and does a contrast to being podded, which gives you a fully healthy body. This would also mean that brains with no body would be uncloneable, for better or for worse, but you can always stick a brain back into a body first. If you can pull DNA from a brain, you could then get them their own body back via genetics.
Douglas Bickerson / Adaptive Manipulator / Digital Clockwork
Image
OrdoM/(Viktor Bergmannsen) (ghost) "Also Douglas, you're becoming the Lexia Black of Robotics"

User avatar
wesoda25
 
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:32 pm
Byond Username: Wesoda25

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby wesoda25 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:02 am #471840

The idea of being able to damage organs is really cool. I think that paired with internal damage, which should be healed via rest/anesthetic/surgery, would put us in a much better place. Once we start adding stuff like broken bones I feel it would start to overcomplicate our medical system. We are tg, and our gameplay is relatively fast paced. However giving doctors actual functionality has been way over due.

Also, why not have the chem which heals internal damage and organs (different chems, organ chem would have a harder recipe) only work on application to the area. Meaning you need to do a simple surgery to expose the trauma site, apply a patch or spray, and close em up again. That way it wouldn’t take too long, but would make medbay better than burn and brute sprays.

User avatar
iamgoofball
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
Byond Username: Iamgoofball
Github Username: Iamgoofball

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:32 am #471865

im gonna just pull out current medical and death code and just start re-working it entirely

User avatar
PKPenguin321
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:02 pm
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A
Byond Username: PKPenguin321
Github Username: PKPenguin321

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:05 am #471883

iamgoofball wrote:im gonna just pull out current medical and death code and just start re-working it entirely

no youre not, stop it

edit: actually you know what that was rude of me, just that your medical changes usually are really bad. write out a plan or something and let people have a look first before writing code
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
Image

Kryson
 
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:04 pm
Byond Username: Kryson

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Kryson » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:24 am #471902

I love some kind of baymed or baymed light for /tg/.

It makes medical a lot more fun to play, medical was one of my favourite roles on baymed servers but it sucks so much on /tg/.

On baymed servers i've had at times as a traitor steal blood bags and an IV pole as a wanted man in order to survive after completing my objectives and at times get ghetto surgery from a greytider or fellow traitor. That is a lot more interesting than slapping on a brute patch.

User avatar
iamgoofball
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
Byond Username: Iamgoofball
Github Username: Iamgoofball

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:55 am #471918

PKPenguin321 wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:im gonna just pull out current medical and death code and just start re-working it entirely

no youre not, stop it

edit: actually you know what that was rude of me, just that your medical changes usually are really bad. write out a plan or something and let people have a look first before writing code

get over it, its happening and you have no say in the codebase ever

somerandomguy
 
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:41 pm
Byond Username: Astatineguy12

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby somerandomguy » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:58 am #471919

If med becomes harder and death is more meaningful there will just be more powergaming, to not die, and sooner shuttle calls, because too many people died. It'll be the new "anything bombed, call shuttle," repairs won't be bothered with because of the effort needed when you can just reset and get a new antag roll to boot.

User avatar
confused rock
 
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:18 am
Byond Username: The unloved rock

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby confused rock » Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:00 am #471922

I don't like xhuis' idea of internal damage, it was all too similar to cloneloss and was still really simple, just a number. I feel for a game as complex as ss13 we can do permanent damage way better than just another numbered damage type. In that way, internal damage was horrible, because in adding it it'd kill any hope of getting an actually interesting deeper form of medicine added.
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby oranges » Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:20 am #471932

you're never going to code anything different though so I'll take what I can get

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Steelpoint » Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:26 am #471957

About cloning, one strategy would be to make cloning require access to a limited resource that is finite, one that cannot be bought from cargo or printed from chemistry.

Another concept to make cloning less attractive is to make clones draw their player from anyone currently ghosted and not just the original player, I'd also suggest letting you clone someone multiple times.

If you want the original person to come back to life, you would need to borg then. Cloning someone is creating a new life forn.
Image

User avatar
PKPenguin321
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:02 pm
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A
Byond Username: PKPenguin321
Github Username: PKPenguin321

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:28 am #471958

iamgoofball wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:im gonna just pull out current medical and death code and just start re-working it entirely

no youre not, stop it

edit: actually you know what that was rude of me, just that your medical changes usually are really bad. write out a plan or something and let people have a look first before writing code

get over it, its happening and you have no say in the codebase ever

more than you considering im not gitbanned
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
Image

User avatar
confused rock
 
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:18 am
Byond Username: The unloved rock

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby confused rock » Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:34 am #471960

I thought we weren't supposed to settle for half assed shit, oranges.
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
iamgoofball
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
Byond Username: Iamgoofball
Github Username: Iamgoofball

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:47 am #471962

confused rock wrote:I thought we weren't supposed to settle for half assed shit, oranges.

then why do you keep posting half assed posts

granpawalton
 
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:20 am
Byond Username: Granpawalton

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby granpawalton » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:18 am #471994

If we go through making surgery more meaningful would anyone be against adding a less efficient but still possible way for players to handle their own surgery? I understand wanting to make medical more meaningful but the main reason other servers scared me away for so long is because the medical system made me feel so powerless and something i could never get better at except for preventing it and the only way i could get it handled in a good way is if i got lucky with good teamates. I think one of the main appeals of tg right now is that it is faster paced than most servers and forcing players to rely on getting lucky/forcing 6 minute bursts of downtime while you get healed to handle long term injuries would detract from that.

Could reducing the portability of medical supplies also tackle this issue? I know tg has recently gotten a lot more methods of giving players tools to heal themselves outside of medbay such as chemical spray bottles, chemical macros, and the ability to buy healing tools from previously doctor only vendors have given players plenty reason to avoid interacting with medbay.

User avatar
Shadowflame909
 
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here
Byond Username: Shadowflame909

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:03 am #472001

Steelpoint wrote:About cloning, one strategy would be to make cloning require access to a limited resource that is finite, one that cannot be bought from cargo or printed from chemistry.

Another concept to make cloning less attractive is to make clones draw their player from anyone currently ghosted and not just the original player, I'd also suggest letting you clone someone multiple times.

If you want the original person to come back to life, you would need to borg then. Cloning someone is creating a new life forn.



So, like Biomatter on other servers?


Y'know it really feels like we're transforming into a different type of server all together.


Like we've basically just woke up and gone, "Hey you know what'd be good."


"All these things these other servers have already implemented in one shape or another. Lets do that"

Spoiler:
Image

ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

User avatar
actioninja
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:40 am
Location: comatose
Byond Username: Actioninja

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby actioninja » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:24 am #472006

I've been writing up a plan for a BRAND NEW(tm) medical system.
Here's some ideas I've had that haven't been mentioned:
Remove the basic health scanner entirely, make the advanced health scanner purely an in body chem scanner. Replace with examine descriptions that are specific, but don't just outright dump numbers.
Base death on brain health like bay, but have zero way to actively heal it and pretty much only going into hard crit or having no oxygen lowers it. Only way to get brain health back is being healthy and it would regen over 10 minutes or so. Have brain traumas applied if health gets below a certain threshold.
Make a new (hidden) "pain" stat that is what causes damage slowdown instead of damage itself, 1:1 with damage but can be reduced with various painkillers with various positives and negatives.
Axe the concept of an instant heal entirely, all healing methods heal wounds slowly. Painkillers would be used to get rid of the slowdown fast, but the injuries themselves would always take time to heal.
Remove oxy damage entirely because it's a really bizarre abstraction that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Breathing some gasses could cause lung damage, others would just knock you out and eventually start causing brain damage. Same for a complete lack of oxygen.
Add a blood pressure stat that's tied to blood volume; chems could cause high or low blood pressure that then affects things like bleed rate, heart failure, maybe even have strokes that garble your speech and cause brain damage, etc.
Image

Dr_bee
 
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:31 pm
Byond Username: DrBee

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Dr_bee » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:15 pm #472022

Ive suggested before to make cloning take RnD and have the revival surgery be baseline.

Revival surgery right now takes high level RnD and is inferior in every way to cloning.

Having revival require fixing the body via synthflesh or augmentation and doing surgery would make medical be more involved and make death more meaningful as it would require more effort for a person to get back into the round than nearly none at all, you would have to actually trust someone to do the work to get you back.

It would be a simple change that could get you closer to what you want, without adding a whole medical sub-system that would slow the game down entirely.

User avatar
Mickyan
Github User
 
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:59 pm
Byond Username: Mickyan
Github Username: Mickyan

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Mickyan » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:44 pm #472027

Random thought - what if cloning, cryo, sleepers and/or chem masters drained research points/med budget instead of being effectively unlimited

I don't say this as an alternative to the proposed changes but limiting supply is a useful tool for balancing
ImageI play as Swanni, the brain-damaged moth.
Be nice to each other.

Dr_bee
 
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:31 pm
Byond Username: DrBee

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Dr_bee » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:43 pm #472050

Mickyan wrote:Random thought - what if cloning, cryo, sleepers and/or chem masters drained research points/med budget instead of being effectively unlimited

I don't say this as an alternative to the proposed changes but limiting supply is a useful tool for balancing


Time and attention is a better way to balance medbay than some artificial point system.

I mean triage is a real challenge in actual medical work, Medbay should be limited by staff, time, and medicine supply.



Nerfing sleepers to take longer would also be a good idea. Link them to VR so the player isnt doing nothing while waiting for healing. And make healing from crit take like 2-3 minutes.

User avatar
Mickyan
Github User
 
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:59 pm
Byond Username: Mickyan
Github Username: Mickyan

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Mickyan » Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:47 pm #472087

Dr_bee wrote:Time and attention is a better way to balance medbay than some artificial point system.

Why not both
ImageI play as Swanni, the brain-damaged moth.
Be nice to each other.

User avatar
iamgoofball
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
Byond Username: Iamgoofball
Github Username: Iamgoofball

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby iamgoofball » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:43 am #472212

oh no, cloning is getting removed

you don't get to bring clones

somerandomguy
 
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:41 pm
Byond Username: Astatineguy12

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby somerandomguy » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:37 pm #472474

iamgoofball wrote:oh no, cloning is getting removed

you don't get to bring clones

15-minute rounds in 5...

User avatar
iamgoofball
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
Byond Username: Iamgoofball
Github Username: Iamgoofball

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby iamgoofball » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:26 am #472486

somerandomguy wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:oh no, cloning is getting removed

you don't get to bring clones

15-minute rounds in 5...

you think this isn't coming alongside blocking shuttles before 40 minutes?

User avatar
PKPenguin321
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:02 pm
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A
Byond Username: PKPenguin321
Github Username: PKPenguin321

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby PKPenguin321 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:41 am #472493

iamgoofball wrote:
somerandomguy wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:oh no, cloning is getting removed

you don't get to bring clones

15-minute rounds in 5...

you think this isn't coming alongside blocking shuttles before 40 minutes?

master rusemeister
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
Image

somerandomguy
 
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:41 pm
Byond Username: Astatineguy12

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby somerandomguy » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:01 pm #472706

iamgoofball wrote:
somerandomguy wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:oh no, cloning is getting removed

you don't get to bring clones

15-minute rounds in 5...

you think this isn't coming alongside blocking shuttles before 40 minutes?

It's going to either allow it once most of the crew is dead (15 minute rounds) or always block for 40 minutes (25 minutes of empty station, everyone leaves server and doesn't bother coming back)

User avatar
Shadowflame909
 
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here
Byond Username: Shadowflame909

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Shadowflame909 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:17 pm #472712

Hahaha traitor lings nukeops murderbone but no cloning hahaha lmao force people to stay hahaha. I wanna see this because I don't think it has a legitimate chance of success. At best it'll turn the remnants of the server into an office simulator without any conflict. At worse no one will play the server anymore

Spoiler:
Image

ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

Tlaltecuhtli
 
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:16 am
Byond Username: Tlaltecuhtli

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:37 pm #472720

lets be honest current medbay is garbage, if you cant deal with this fact stay out of here

User avatar
PKPenguin321
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:02 pm
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A
Byond Username: PKPenguin321
Github Username: PKPenguin321

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:26 am #472796

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:lets be honest current medbay is garbage, if you cant deal with this fact stay out of here

I think it matches the pace of the game pretty well
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
Image

somerandomguy
 
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:41 pm
Byond Username: Astatineguy12

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby somerandomguy » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:19 am #472810

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Tlaltecuhtli wrote:lets be honest current medbay is garbage, if you cant deal with this fact stay out of here

I think it matches the pace of the game pretty well

This. The game's pace isn't determined by medbay, it's the other way around. Only the headmins can force a slower pace and/or higher rp, because people will act the same regardless of medbay. They definitely won't restrain themselves if death is more permanent because escalation policy allows you to kill people without them doing much. If anything, people will kill sooner, so they aren't the one taken out of the round for 30 minutes

User avatar
Shadowflame909
 
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here
Byond Username: Shadowflame909

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby Shadowflame909 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:04 am #472815

PKPenguin321 wrote:I think it matches the pace of the game pretty well



I agree with this sentiment but for different reasons, for the topic of removing death in an effort to gage paranoia, and more roleplay in the game.

My first argument is that, if you remove forms of revival. You'll get more paranoia for sure, but you'll get even less interaction then we have now.

Take it this way.

ANYONE can take out a murderbone tool and end your round.

How do you think the playerbase will feel about this?

Well, me personally. I think eventually if it happens enough, I'll just start running towards the plasteel and making R-Walls in place of my doors. I don't get to die, and I get to enjoy my rounds.


What if this happened in mass? Multiple people using whatever form of reasoning, "Code Blue. Active threats" "I DONT WANNA DIE"

I'd also like to make another statement. I don't want code to do the job of rules.

It's annoying and hectic, to see all these essentially ''Timegates'' that add nothing to the game. They're there to dicate how the players should act, incentivize what the players should do.

They limit them, they stuff their creativity into a box and go "NO THIS IS THE TYPE OF PLAYER YOU SHOULD BE NOW"

Is that really the type of game we want? Maintainers?


So, now that I've stated a couple of things. I shall finish this rambling statement off by relating to medbay and ghost role.


Yeah, that's a good idea, Medbay's in need of more activity.


Ghost roles aren't in a good spot right now, they're free-respawns/free antag respawns on Lavaland that leads to metagame and all in all just usually ends with someone metagaming the Xeno ruin. Codebase should have merged that "Ghost roles can't go on lavaland" PR. That'd prevent all of this current self-antag run to the station metagame that we have now.


So ultimately to end this on a constructive note. I think this idea could work, not all of it. But it is salvageable.


But before you implement it, a whole lot of things need to be implemented first.

Like,

-Preventing ghost roles from being able to abuse metagame knowledge. It still happens and it's so close that admin can't get a solid Admin-help out of it.
-Stop all of the common Round-Enders from happening. If you know me, then you clearly know what I mean. Holy shit.
-Stop incentivizing the player base to get away with grief. Cargo-Bounties literally tell the players to farm round-enders/build a potentially destructive engine. Why?
-Make restoring the station easier. The shuttle call is currently the fix-all button because honestly, restoring the station back to what it looked like before a traitor made toxins bombs and Cuban-Pete'd it to hell. Is quite difficult, and needs to be more speedy. Engineers already have a whole lot to do.


This one is my personal bias

- Remove the unliked and barely stomached code that incentivizes the players to feel and act a certain way, or else they get penalized. It may just be my personality type, but whew. Do I hate feeling limited or constrained. Hygiene and Moodlets to the majority do just that, and if you really want to see players act this way. You're going to have to be more discreet about it. Like, use realistic science for example. The state of mind effects how fast wounds heal. What if medicine worked better and much faster upon people who were near more people the entire shift, and conversed a whole lot. Compared to the average greytiding assistant who was always sneaky and avoided conversation to go loot some junk without being caught.


I hope someone reads this, and this wasn't another useless rambling

Spoiler:
Image

ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

User avatar
actioninja
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:40 am
Location: comatose
Byond Username: Actioninja

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby actioninja » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:11 am #472839

You could also just up the lethality of common station equipment and items. People are going to be more hesitant to murderbone if every encounter has an element of risk even when you are significantly overpowering them.
Or conditionally remove some of the more lethal tools from the standard traitor uplink. Like make conspicuous weapons only show up if you have a hijack or die a glorious death objective.
Image

User avatar
PKPenguin321
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:02 pm
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A
Byond Username: PKPenguin321
Github Username: PKPenguin321

Re: on the topics of medbay and death

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:32 am #472844

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Tlaltecuhtli wrote:lets be honest current medbay is garbage, if you cant deal with this fact stay out of here

I think it matches the pace of the game pretty well

On this note, if we somehow find a code solution to make our rounds last longer (as oranges proposed to do in the other thread) without losing the fast-paced style of action ingame, I probably wouldn't be opposed to a slower medical system to go with that. Doing things out of order would make medbay a massive unfun slog, hence why it's a hard no from me at the moment.
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
Image

Next

Return to Ideas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users