Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

A place to record your ideas for the game.

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Sleepers and Cloners in the game

I would like Sleepers in the game
26
23%
I would like Cloners in the game
37
33%
I would not like to see either Sleepers or Cloners in the game
48
43%
 
Total votes : 111

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby griffithlol » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:31 am #566597

I dunno why they just dont make the power requirements higher as well, that way engi has to do their job too.



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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby cacogen » Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:20 am #566645

Trying to strongarm players into doing shit they don't want to do just breeds resentment you have to incentivise them using rewards and if you say having power is its own reward you should be my gf because that's the type of thing women say about housework because their minds can't comprehend that having dishes to eat off of is boring and perhaps the only difference between me and other people is that I've always demanded more from the housework

here some woman says maybe having power is enough but guys want only one thing and it's to be better than
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legoscape wrote:Coders are good at coding they're not good at game design. Or even asking what people want.

Some of them don't even play. How can you design a game you don't play? That's how good they are.
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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby legoscape » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:53 pm #566662

Ok, I've had a bit of a change of heart with the new medical system. It really does give doctors something to do and it's really neat fixing bones and shit but we need some kind of balance here. When you have cultists,syndicates or wizards there is nothing you can do for the dead. Medbay will be rushed to prevent people from fighting the antags out and it makes things impossible. I'd say make clones a higher teir research so when early/mid shift comes around 20-25 minutes in you can have cloning to fix people.
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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby oranges » Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:46 am #566709

I wont' be doing that

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby Cobby » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:59 pm #566748

legoscape wrote:
Cobby wrote:Yes, when roles (particularly BOTH sec and med) are not doing their job there comes a consequence to that. I think it's great that these jobs have real value, and I'd like to see that value translate into other jobs as well so everyone has an interest to "keep the machine running".

When I read that I think both the armory's supply should be reflective of the station pop so we dont have armory rushers who now have enough guns to take down a 70+ server, let alone one at 35 pop.


No stop. Stop ruining the game...Just revert the old shit back to how it was. It takes a long time to revive people in a cloner that should be how it is. Don't change other aspects of the game because medical changes everything.
This non cloning system was not thought of at all. Coders are good at coding they're not good at game design. Or even asking what people want. "They just do things" - Joker


The only part in the machine left mainly is to make surgery not such a snooze (doafter fun) and continue bringing chems to a middle-ground response by giving them consequences for continual use.

The entire redesign was about what people, particularly doctors, wanted. It was very tiring for a doctor to be a glorified AI where you opened the door and the guy who brought the body in did all the "work" (aka pressed the buttons) so you neither had a job nor the ability to sabotage, and I think that is definitely bad design.
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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby Flatulent » Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:46 am #566849

isn’t doing surgery just pressing buttons as well
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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:37 pm #566953

Flatulent wrote:isn’t doing surgery just pressing buttons as well

yeah but you cant move away while youre doing it, which gives you responsibility and allows you to sabotage things if desired
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PostThis post was deleted by Cobby on Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:20 pm.
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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby trollbreeder » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:52 am #567014

legoscape wrote:
oranges wrote:I wont' be doing that

Well if you don't do something soon you'll hear more from people
for exmaple: How you destroyed Cult gameplay. Cults have instant-heal-fix Revive runes.
for exmaple: wizard
for example: Syndicate Ops
for example: Bombing medbay
for example: Killing doctors
for example: Any Murder boners
for example: "I don't want to lay on the floor for 30 minutes to not be fixed"
for example: Full organ decay transplants (Appendix too)

These are a few issues with the lack of oversight of the new system. These are big issues. They affect gameplay, They affect your system and consequently affect the gameplay.
Also If you don't do something soon you'll have to be doing more because of your lack of basic gameplay. I have played for seven years and never has cloning been an issue. Hell everyone liked surgery with cloning. It allows you to revive people who were found in less than 5 minutes with a bit of surgery. No one likes sitting for Five-Six-Seven minutes doing FULL organ transplants. It's teeth pulling. Oranges, You are a hell of a coder but you need more game design sense ((still love you tho))

Over the past year the coding team has generally lacked direction, Tweaking and changing great systems that were generally great to play. IE Botanists,Chemistry,Medical Doctor, ((Maybe even engineers due to sm shard)) I feel like the medical system is just an beating outlet from a lack of direction. This lack of direction has gotten very interesting concepts removed (Clock Cult). I would like to see another big project such as Lavaland or Icebox station. Something that adds much and removes little. more content! Get to work coders :honk:

You can leave at any moment to beestation or boomerstation or even hippiestation
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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby griffithlol » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:46 pm #567315

Whats wrong with making these machines have a super high power draw. That way engis and atmos would be given something to work on continuously throughout the shift. More power=Better clones, maybe even require upgraded power lines and equipment. Plus theres no reason people cant be cloned with some bad organs and stuff so that doctors are needed.

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby Flatulent » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:02 pm #567316

griffithlol wrote:Whats wrong with making these machines have a super high power draw. That way engis and atmos would be given something to work on continuously throughout the shift. More power=Better clones, maybe even require upgraded power lines and equipment. Plus theres no reason people cant be cloned with some bad organs and stuff so that doctors are needed.

because power is unbalanced
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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby griffithlol » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:10 am #567318

Flatulent wrote:because power is unbalanced

how

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby FloranOtten » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:23 am #567337

griffithlol wrote:
Flatulent wrote:because power is unbalanced

how


In every way. If you don't have engineers, activating these machines can act as a ghetto powersink. If you do have engineers, power is irrelevant. The SME can produce 10MW with a few minutes of modding and very little risks taken. Cargo can order a Tesla and make powerdraw irrelevant. The TEG is literally magic (it produces more power running on heaters/freezers than the heaters/freezers draw).
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OOC: BeeSting12: i love you floran

1. You may not injure a revs are non humans or, through inaction, allow a revs are non humans to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by revs are non humanss, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby griffithlol » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:32 am #567344

In every way. If you don't have engineers, activating these machines can act as a ghetto powersink. If you do have engineers, power is irrelevant. The SME can produce 10MW with a few minutes of modding and very little risks taken. Cargo can order a Tesla and make powerdraw irrelevant. The TEG is literally magic (it produces more power running on heaters/freezers than the heaters/freezers draw).[/quote]

These seem like problems independent of the machines. Fixing them should be a priorty. Also cargo tesla is not exactly without risks, and is very expensive. It is exactly what i am talking about. It encourages teamwork between departments, and gives incentive for people to actually do something. The fact that the teg violates the laws of thermodynamics seems to be a coding problem that can be fixed and should be.

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby FloranOtten » Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:54 am #567354

griffithlol wrote:These seem like problems independent of the machines. Fixing them should be a priorty.
WYCI

Also cargo tesla is not exactly without risks, and is very expensive. It is exactly what i am talking about. It encourages teamwork between departments, and gives incentive for people to actually do something. The fact that the teg violates the laws of thermodynamics seems to be a coding problem that can be fixed and should be.

There's a reason people don't allow cargo to build one every round. Let's not encourage teslooses.
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1. You may not injure a revs are non humans or, through inaction, allow a revs are non humans to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by revs are non humanss, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Give me feedback!

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby griffithlol » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:23 pm #567360

FloranOtten wrote:WYCI

Not gonna lie i dont know what this means
FloranOtten wrote:There's a reason people don't allow cargo to build one every round. Let's not encourage teslooses.

I don't really want that either, but if engis build it in the available spot in engineering to meet rising power demands would you think differently? Engis having something to do, cargo something to buy.
Last edited by griffithlol on Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby trollbreeder » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:59 pm #567364

griffithlol wrote:
FloranOtten wrote:WYCI

Not gonna lie i dont know what this means

It means "when you code it"
I'm a dumb feature coder, also a bad (but not terrible) coderspriter and a semi-good mapper and an enforcer of standards.
you can find me playing when i'm not coding or playing csgo as cleans-the-house on event hall, sybil or manuel

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby griffithlol » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:24 pm #567367

trollbreeder wrote:
griffithlol wrote:
FloranOtten wrote:WYCI

Not gonna lie i dont know what this means

It means "when you code it"


Ok, I opened a issue on github. I don't have a ton of experience with byond, just some toying around, but hopefully I can see to the freezers not breaking thermodynamics.

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby TheFinalPotato » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:41 pm #567388

griffithlol wrote:In every way. If you don't have engineers, activating these machines can act as a ghetto powersink. If you do have engineers, power is irrelevant. The SME can produce 10MW with a few minutes of modding and very little risks taken. Cargo can order a Tesla and make powerdraw irrelevant. The TEG is literally magic (it produces more power running on heaters/freezers than the heaters/freezers draw).


These seem like problems independent of the machines. Fixing them should be a priory. Also cargo tesla is not exactly without risks, and is very expensive. It is exactly what i am talking about. It encourages teamwork between departments, and gives incentive for people to actually do something. The fact that the teg violates the laws of thermodynamics seems to be a coding problem that can be fixed and should be.[/quote]
That's true. The trouble is power is broken on a fundamental level. There's a list of semi cheese that can be addressed, but before any of that will help the apc issue will need solving, which is a huge task. There's a reason people have been talking about this for 6 years at least.

The main trouble remaining is how power gets handled code side. Basically there are 2 different units, one for cells and one for the net. The trouble is SOMEONE PUT CELLS IN APCS, and that means the act of putting a cell into an apc generates 200x the power. This is a fundamental issue that will need to be addressed before power can matter. There are a few others I won't touch on here, but that's the main one. Erodos over on discord should have something at some point, but again it's a huge task.

One being broken hardly matters when everything else is broken too. Either power works or it doesn't, and it'll be a bit before it works.
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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby Helios » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:32 pm #567492

HommandoSA wrote:
legoscape wrote:-snip-


You may not have had fun but at least the medical system was working as intended.

Coders in 2020
trollbreeder wrote:You can leave at any moment to beestation or boomerstation or even hippiestation

Players in 2020

Fuck solving problems or having fun. What matters is the status quo, until Oranges decides to change that again randomly.

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby oranges » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:07 pm #567984

at least helios gets it

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby Sheodir » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:26 pm #568003

No thanks as a partial Medical main I like actually having a job to do and learn
I play Holden Westmacott. Sec/PM main most of the time.

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby Helios » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:29 am #568071

Sheodir wrote:No thanks as a partial Medical main I like actually having a job to do and learn

How often do you think they would be built?

Before department lathes, how often did you see Engineers actually take the effort to build an autolathe in engineering?
Not very often, back when I played in 2014-2016.
I suspect you'd have a job more often then you think.

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby Space Panda » Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:24 pm #568097

hello,

i like the idea of being able to create cloners and sleepers late in the rounds. usually by this time the medbay staff may have already been overwhelmed by patients and corpses.

i also like the suggestion of making them use lots of power, requiring cooperation between medbay and engineering.

sincerely,

space panda

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby oranges » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:48 pm #568496

cloner but it requires an specific anomaly core, so you can only revive 8 people ever

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby cacogen » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:35 pm #568509

Helios wrote:
trollbreeder wrote:You can leave at any moment to beestation or boomerstation or even hippiestation

Players in 2020

it's weird because this was headmins back when hg and an0n3 reigned supreme
every shitler adopts a love it or leave it stance to criticism

but this guy does it for free
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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby Sheodir » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:42 am #568546

Helios wrote:
Sheodir wrote:No thanks as a partial Medical main I like actually having a job to do and learn

How often do you think they would be built?

Before department lathes, how often did you see Engineers actually take the effort to build an autolathe in engineering?
Not very often, back when I played in 2014-2016.
I suspect you'd have a job more often then you think.

I do not think this is that fair a comparison

Autolathes skip a small part of the engineering job overall, sleepers and cloners replace large swathes of the process (and cloners straight up make caring for the process largely useless)

In a world where a lot of people still haven't bothered learning the Medical procedures, are salty about this change to this day and where Research is honestly still kinda broken people would find any way to rush to cloners they could find. I suppose there are ways to balance this with materials and what not (definitely not diamonds, their rarity isn't that big a deal).
I play Holden Westmacott. Sec/PM main most of the time.

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Reason: accidental double post, server hiccup, mso got high

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby oranges » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:15 am #568548

there is not any way to balance it with materials, the materials economy is fubar ever since t4 parts and lavaland.

That's why I added anomaly processing.

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby Helios » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:50 pm #568595

oranges wrote:there is not any way to balance it with materials, the materials economy is fubar ever since t4 parts and lavaland.

That's why I added anomaly processing.

Oh for sure, I agree.
What do you think about other economies?
Like, right now there is an incentive for doctors to do surgery for cargo bounties, but what about replacing that with an in department points system.
The end result could be a "Ghost transfer machine", which if you put a clonable body on one end, and a human'd monkey/SSD player on the other, after the length of time, the person would wake up as that SSD character.
That way, the two bridges required to cross before cloning would be.
1. Harvesting enough organs to purchase the board.
2. Getting enough Human'd monkeys to revive people.

This would also have the side effect of making that person look really suspicious, because they're wearing another person's ID, and all the changes that brings. This could also bring in roleplaying, and people being able to lie to the HoP and say they were revived, and need the name on their ID changed. If you think that SSD player isn't coming back, it would also bring characters back in the game, who would otherwise be stripped and stuffed into a locker.

There might obviously be some problems with this as proposed, but I'd love to hear your opinion on something like this.

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby legoscape » Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:50 am #569067

trollbreeder wrote:
griffithlol wrote:
FloranOtten wrote:WYCI

Not gonna lie i dont know what this means

It means "when you code it"


This is such a piece of shit excuse for allowing coderbus. Coders know how to code this. That means they can do what they want with it. Just don't fuck with systems that have been in the game for 7+ years.

Edit: Anything coderbus touches they've been killing or changing it in such a way nobody plays it. IE, Medical doctor, Geneticists, Chemists, CMO, Botanist.
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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby Armhulen » Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:02 am #569070

legoscape wrote:
trollbreeder wrote:
griffithlol wrote:
FloranOtten wrote:WYCI

Not gonna lie i dont know what this means

It means "when you code it"


This is such a piece of shit excuse for allowing coderbus. Coders know how to code this. That means they can do what they want with it. Just don't fuck with systems that have been in the game for 7+ years.

Edit: Anything coderbus touches they've been killing or changing it in such a way nobody plays it. IE, Medical doctor, Geneticists, Chemists, CMO, Botanist.

All those people started because they wanted a change in the game and other people didn't want to do their homework for them so they did it themselves instead of whine until someone did it for them. I only code for myself and what I think is best for the game, and I expect you to do so as well. Sorry, but "it hasn't been changed so it doesn't need to be ever" is just a shit argument ESPECIALLY in an open anyone contribute codebase
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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:22 am #569072

legoscape wrote:
trollbreeder wrote:
griffithlol wrote:
FloranOtten wrote:WYCI

Not gonna lie i dont know what this means

It means "when you code it"


This is such a piece of shit excuse for allowing coderbus. Coders know how to code this. That means they can do what they want with it. Just don't fuck with systems that have been in the game for 7+ years.

Edit: Anything coderbus touches they've been killing or changing it in such a way nobody plays it. IE, Medical doctor, Geneticists, Chemists, CMO, Botanist.

"coderbus" does not exist, its existence is a misconception. all code changes are done by volunteers like you or me and nobody is obligated to code anything
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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby NecromancerAnne » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:21 am #569083

Be the change you wanna see.

Even if you are a cat smacking a keyboard, like me.

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby oranges » Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:10 am #569099

don't be this change though, I'll never accept it ever

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Re: Add back Cloner/Sleeper as T4 Machine that can be built with diamonds

Postby cacogen » Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:13 am #569270

PKPenguin321 wrote:
legoscape wrote:
trollbreeder wrote:
griffithlol wrote:
FloranOtten wrote:WYCI

Not gonna lie i dont know what this means

It means "when you code it"


This is such a piece of shit excuse for allowing coderbus. Coders know how to code this. That means they can do what they want with it. Just don't fuck with systems that have been in the game for 7+ years.

Edit: Anything coderbus touches they've been killing or changing it in such a way nobody plays it. IE, Medical doctor, Geneticists, Chemists, CMO, Botanist.

"coderbus" does not exist, its existence is a misconception. all code changes are done by volunteers like you or me and nobody is obligated to code anything

anyone who has ever had a pr merged is part of the cabal
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this

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