Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

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obi wan kaczynski
 
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Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:24 am #579124

The shuttle call is the worst mechanic in the game. It's antithetical to the entire spirit of Space Station 13, which is a game where an isolated crew tries to survive against an absurd, paranoia-laden death trap.

Right now, rounds are ended unilaterally by one player when one of two things happen

- he is bored, which often ends a round that is exciting for 40+ other people
- things are going wrong on the titular death trap in the game known as Space Station 13. An exciting round ends, and the crew doesn't bother defying the threats to the station.

Right now shuttle calls happen if one or more people want to reroll. This is bad game design. The idea that a Space Station 13 round should end if something goes wrong on the station (??) is ridiculous on its face.

The culture engendered by easy shuttle calls also collapses the time horizon of the crew. There's no reason to invest in projects or to even try to save the station (medbay bombed? we have an entire department dedicated to fixing that) -- there's not much reason to even band together as the crew to try to end a threat. Why would you try to save anything if a reset is minutes away?

My proposal is twofold:

1. Shuttle call is initiated like it is now (Heads only), but it requires an IC crew vote of living characters on active clients. This could be PDA voting (with ID), or require a certain # of people to go to an IC console with IDs. People who don't vote are not counted either way.
2. To complement this, autocall the shuttle as a predictable round-ending event after two hours or so to prevent excessively long rounds (IC explanation: shift-end).
2a. Current autocall at 80% station death is unchanged.

There are other issues that should be addressed parallel to this. One is addressing boredom, and I think this can be tackled by improving dynamic mode. Many good ideas were floated in the Discord regarding this. One is having antags added at random times throughout the round, rather than at a static "midround." This could even be implemented with zero roundstart antags, to keep people on their toes and to hold out a carrot.

Anyway, I think the time to revamp the shuttle (or general "round-end") system. It has never quite made sense. I am going to be working on a PR for the shuttle issues that I mentioned above, and I wanted to open this issue to see some discussion on what kind of shuttle-call gating method people would like to see. I'll make the PR based on the tastes and consensus of the community.
Last edited by obi wan kaczynski on Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:05 pm, edited 7 times in total.



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terranaut
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby terranaut » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:59 am #579125

I have played on servers that do shuttle autocalls after 2 - 2.5 hours (with regular calls as we currently have them available) and it generally leads to people actually repairing breaches and fixing other problems, with shuttle calls being rather frowned upon unless the game mode requires it or things are really, really bad.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby remanseptim » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:01 am #579126

you'd need a system to let people back into especially long rounds.
a conclusion i'll draw is to fallout 13 servers. typically, those have incredibly long rounds and the 'shuttle' (train) only gets called by player vote. however, you are also able to respawn on those servers, so if you die to some gamer gaming you can hop back in.
nobody likes dying 5 minutes into a 30 minute round. imagine dying 5 minutes into a 3 hour one.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:14 am #579127

terranaut wrote:I have played on servers that do shuttle autocalls after 2 - 2.5 hours (with regular calls as we currently have them available) and it generally leads to people actually repairing breaches and fixing other problems, with shuttle calls being rather frowned upon unless the game mode requires it or things are really, really bad.

this is my hope for these ideas! People trying to give their station a fighting rather than just rerolling whenever something goes wrong. I think

remanseptim wrote:you'd need a system to let people back into especially long rounds.
a conclusion i'll draw is to fallout 13 servers. typically, those have incredibly long rounds and the 'shuttle' (train) only gets called by player vote. however, you are also able to respawn on those servers, so if you die to some gamer gaming you can hop back in.
nobody likes dying 5 minutes into a 30 minute round. imagine dying 5 minutes into a 3 hour one.


/tg/ has what, five servers? Just server hop. Death being permanent is a pretty normal part of ss13. Besides, people can vote for a new round end. The point of this idea isn't to draw rounds out beyond their ideal length of ~90 minutes. To the contrary, it's to encourage players to actually play around out to its natural life (not three hours or anything crazy) rather than have one person unilaterally end a thrilling and challenging round

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby remanseptim » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:43 am #579128

/tg/ has 4 servers, campbell is dead, event halls are both closed, and TGMC is a separate branch and gamemode.
furthermore servers have distinct cultures, and in manuel's case, rules.
combine that with the fact that on bagil, for example, 60 minutes is considered a long round. your ideal 90 minute round is considered absurdly lengthy by a huge chunk of the playerbase.
contrasting that is manuel. 2-3 hour rounds are the norm there.
regardless of all that, server hopping doesn't fix much. people who play bagil do it for the bagil experience. people who play manuel do it for the manuel experience. said experiences cannot be replicated on the other servers. that's why expecting players to just serverhop is misdguided.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby terranaut » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:48 am #579135

It's very possible to make it a config option and keep slower servers slower and faster servers faster.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:37 am #579138

the round lenght is currently 45 ish min for high pop and like 2h for low pop, if you want to do some sandbox project do it on lowpop or manuel, if you want to play ss13 the multiplayer game u play on high pop,
if an head calls shuttle against most of the crew will, you are entitled to mutiny and lynch him to recall togheter with you coworkers, just because you arent antag it doesnt mean you cant rebel against injustice

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby cacogen » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:10 pm #579145

I like the idea of a set shift end time and an optional call in dire circumstances that has to pass a crew vote but I wonder how a crew vote would work in practice. If your PDA was gone would there be a back-up method of voting that was equally handy? Would PDAs auto vote no like restart votes? Could people falsify votes?

remanseptim wrote:you'd need a system to let people back into especially long rounds.
a conclusion i'll draw is to fallout 13 servers. typically, those have incredibly long rounds and the 'shuttle' (train) only gets called by player vote. however, you are also able to respawn on those servers, so if you die to some gamer gaming you can hop back in.
nobody likes dying 5 minutes into a 30 minute round. imagine dying 5 minutes into a 3 hour one.

I keep suggesting the game let players respawn after ~10 minutes as a different character to keep rounds going. You'd need to also free job slots of the permanently dead or those who have been dead for a certain length of time.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby stewydeadmike » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:04 pm #579161

wholeheartedly agree with this. I've seen so many rounds that have a setup for something cool to happen go down the drain because someone thought sitting in departures for 10 minutes instead of dealing with whatever was threatening the station was a better plan. Maybe the ability to call the shuttle could be locked until station integrity and or % of crew alive drops below a certain threshold? So that a shuttle call could be more of a last resort when a situation gets way out of hand instead of a get out of jail free card.
cacogen wrote:I keep suggesting the game let players respawn after ~10 minutes as a different character to keep rounds going. You'd need to also free job slots of the permanently dead or those who have been dead for a certain length of time.

my main concern with this is people using it to metagame and "accidentally" stumbling upon their previous characters gear. But I do think a respawn mechanic would be worth testing out to see if that would be an issue.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Shaps-cloud » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:59 pm #579168

Whenever I hear people complain about shuttles I just assume they're the stupid atmos techs and engineers who barricade themselves away from the rest of the game and cry when their single player experience is being reset 2 hours into the round when everyone is dying of boredom
P.S. Shoot Dr. Allen on sight and dissolve his body in acid. Don't burn it.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Shaps-cloud » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:00 pm #579169

"recall we can fix it" -complaint from some person no one likes 60 minutes into the round when the entire station has burnt to a crisp and 6 people are alive
P.S. Shoot Dr. Allen on sight and dissolve his body in acid. Don't burn it.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Shaps-cloud » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:05 pm #579171

fuck engineers
P.S. Shoot Dr. Allen on sight and dissolve his body in acid. Don't burn it.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:11 pm #579172

Nothing i love more than joining into a greenshift 2 hours and 45 minutes in as one of 30 assistants to see every autism project completed and guarded by armed paramilitary departmental tribesmen who shoot anyone who try to cause any form of activity at all beyond standing around marveling at some retards ability to use the rapid pipe dispenser to spell out "NIGGERTUBE"
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Misdoubtful » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:52 pm #579177

Super Aggro Crag wrote:Nothing i love more than joining into a greenshift 2 hours and 45 minutes in as one of 30 assistants to see every autism project completed and guarded by armed paramilitary departmental tribesmen who shoot anyone who try to cause any form of activity at all beyond standing around marveling at some retards ability to use the rapid pipe dispenser to spell out "NIGGERTUBE"


Gotta say, I kind of agree with this personally.

For some reason I like the idea of having a set sense of urgency in getting things done. There was a period a bit back where the server(s) would under almost no circumstances let a round go longer than two hours, and it was honestly pretty great. Everyone knew how much time they had at the most, and had to play around that window. If they wanted to do some big overexaggerated project they had to know how to approach it correctly.

That invisible set window for the round really added to the flow of things.

On top of that knowing the round would end then meant the shuttle was rarely ever called, and would only be called around the time the server would poop out, mostly to try and beat it and let people see the round end screen.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby oranges » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:22 pm #579187

Shaps-cloud wrote:fuck engineers

shaps feels strongly about this

and I am basically never going to be willing to put an automated time limit on the round time.

The players will always decide IC.

We aim for a certain time period, which is about 1 and a half hours per round, at which point most of the standard gameplay will be dried up.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:40 pm #579193

Shaps-cloud wrote:Whenever I hear people complain about shuttles I just assume they're the stupid atmos techs and engineers who barricade themselves away from the rest of the game and cry when their single player experience is being reset 2 hours into the round when everyone is dying of boredom

Sounds like they are playing the game of Space Station 13 and you want to reroll for antag.

besides, if this is true and they are going against the will of the station, then that should be proven with a vote that passes...


Super Aggro Crag wrote:Nothing i love more than joining into a greenshift 2 hours and 45 minutes in as one of 30 assistants to see every autism project completed and guarded by armed paramilitary departmental tribesmen who shoot anyone who try to cause any form of activity at all beyond standing around marveling at some retards ability to use the rapid pipe dispenser to spell out "NIGGERTUBE"


So, there are two main problems around shuttle calls.

1. The round is exciting and stuff is going wrong (the main -feature- of ss13). A few people are bored and want to reroll. Most people dont bother/can't stop this in 5 minutes, so a good round of SS13 is ruined. This is addressed with the vote mechanic.

2. "Green shifts" - the round is boring for most people because nothing happens. The second part of my post (improve dynamic rounds) is meant to address this. This being addressed by simply ending the round with a shuttle is bad and lazy game design.


stewydeadmike wrote:wholeheartedly agree with this. I've seen so many rounds that have a setup for something cool to happen go down the drain because someone thought sitting in departures for 10 minutes instead of dealing with whatever was threatening the station was a better plan. Maybe the ability to call the shuttle could be locked until station integrity and or % of crew alive drops below a certain threshold? So that a shuttle call could be more of a last resort when a situation gets way out of hand instead of a get out of jail free card.


I suggested the shuttle call being gated on a station integrity check or % of crew death, and I put it to a vote here: https://www.strawpoll.me/21098054/r

The consensus seemed to be that people didn't like the idea of people killing themselves to allow a shuttle call. Though I guess a station integrity check would get around that, but it's computationally expensive I think, and not all hopeless emergencies involve damage to the station.
Last edited by obi wan kaczynski on Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Megarop » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:35 am #579221

cacogen wrote:I keep suggesting the game let players respawn after ~10 minutes as a different character to keep rounds going. You'd need to also free job slots of the permanently dead or those who have been dead for a certain length of time.

Imagine killing the sec team as rev or cult or something and then 10 minutes later a whole other sec team shows up.
They have respawn enabled on baystation and that's basically exactly what happens there except it takes 20 minutes instead of 10.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby cacogen » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:31 am #579230

Shaps-cloud wrote:"recall we can fix it" -complaint from some person no one likes 60 minutes into the round when the entire station has burnt to a crisp and 6 people are alive

I like to play engineer. I don't do autism projects personally, but nearly every other job is similar to that where you're working on something in your department and the shuttle or gamemode's round ends prevents you from finishing.

I keep saying engineers have no chance of repairing departments to functionality after a certain, trivial level of destruction is achieved and so "recall we can fix it" is a half-forgotten meme from 2011 that nobody is willing to even give a chance anymore (even in situations where that trivial level of destruction perhaps hasn't been reached yet and there's a chance that engineers could return things to functionality, if you only gave them 20 minutes to do so, which nobody wants to do anyway). The shuttle call usually happens even with the majority of crew alive because repairing bomb damage is just that tedious and unlikely to occur.

Megarop wrote:
cacogen wrote:I keep suggesting the game let players respawn after ~10 minutes as a different character to keep rounds going. You'd need to also free job slots of the permanently dead or those who have been dead for a certain length of time.

Imagine killing the sec team as rev or cult or something and then 10 minutes later a whole other sec team shows up.
They have respawn enabled on baystation and that's basically exactly what happens there except it takes 20 minutes instead of 10.

Yeah, I'd like to see it in practice but the problems it's supposed to solve are rounds ending earlier than they need to and people losing their job progress on death, leading to multiple rounds of attempts without fruition. I honestly don't know though if security being reinforced is such a bad thing.

oranges wrote:We aim for a certain time period, which is about 1 and a half hours per round, at which point most of the standard gameplay will be dried up.

Yeah, you say that but it never gets there unless it's lowpop and there isn't a murderbone.

stewydeadmike wrote:
cacogen wrote:I keep suggesting the game let players respawn after ~10 minutes as a different character to keep rounds going. You'd need to also free job slots of the permanently dead or those who have been dead for a certain length of time.

my main concern with this is people using it to metagame and "accidentally" stumbling upon their previous characters gear. But I do think a respawn mechanic would be worth testing out to see if that would be an issue.

Well, we already trust people to observe after death without bringing the knowledge they acquire there back into the game with them if they're revived.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:10 am #579241

Respawn seems to OOC step on the toes of the IC role of medical. I've been revived 45 minutes after my death because someone found my body in a locker. Paramedics seem to informally have "look for corpses" as part of their role anyway. Why bother reviving someone if it's CoD, though?

But the core issue is that rounds end too quickly for anything fun to actually develop. Is making death less consequential the answer? I don't think so. That encourages a kind of low-stakes gameplay where you live for a little while, play in a low time-horizon manner, die, and respawn again. Like I said before, I think the collapsed planning horizon is a big issue with the shuttle, and like cacogen said, rounds rarely ever reach their intended length. The shuttle was called in Basil at something like 22 minutes today. Why not medical encourage a culture of enabling suit sensors on the crew's end and actually trying to revive people on medical's end? That gives medical *things to do* which is a solution to one of the core problems mentioned in this thread. Preventing rounds from ending early also prevents people from falling into lazy habits.

Anyway, i'm only mildly against respawn. I'd support its addition if it meant we could reform the perennially awful shuttle-call system, which is so against the spirit of ss13 (things go wrong and you try to deal with it) that it's indefensible. I think a 25 minute respawn timer might be reasonable.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby XDTM » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:48 am #579243

oranges wrote:
Shaps-cloud wrote:fuck engineers

shaps feels strongly about this

and I am basically never going to be willing to put an automated time limit on the round time.

The players will always decide IC.

We aim for a certain time period, which is about 1 and a half hours per round, at which point most of the standard gameplay will be dried up.


I think the shift end shuttle could still work while letting the crew decide, simply make it possible to call after a determined time (one hour and a half, given that timeframe), without the restrictions that the emergency shuttle would have. It would probably still be immediately called by bored captains, but it still allows the crew to keep playing if they so prefer.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby thehogshotgun » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:31 am #579254

Shaps-cloud wrote:fuck engineers


Fuck you

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:02 pm #579256

respawn is fine as we already have:
- midround antags
- admin spawning antags because u begged for it
- xenobio animals
- golem from xenobio and not
- sentient monkey

imagine if xenobio couldnt get rideable bears because all the ghosts are waiting to respawn as fully functional humans to fight the antag who made them go horrizontal

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby cacogen » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:15 pm #579258

The existence of those doesn't prevent job progress loss with death or early shuttle calls based on population loss though
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby skoglol » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:01 pm #579260

I'm heavily against any form of crew respawn. People can claim not to metagame, but theres a limit to how many times in a round you will fall into a disposal-into-SM trap or similar. Posibrains/powerminers/holoparasites are bad enough for this already, and while it is enforced by admins when reported/discovered it can only be handled after the fact, and it only takes one to ruin a good gimmick.

I still think changing how the shuttle works is necessary though. Many people have made good arguments for it in the past, and a lot of them make sense. I think we should try to get away from the notion that every round has to end with a shuttle call, as it doesnt make sense for a no threats boring round to end via emergency shuttle. As has also already been mentioned in this thread, shuttle often means whatever efforts to stabilize the situation are pointless, and people give up and leave instead. Im not saying we need 2-3 hour rounds all the time, but it is quite frankly pretty disheartening when the shuttle starts getting chain called at 25 minutes during your slow antag gimmick round or whatever.
Im not sure what the ultimate solution to this is, but I am more than willing to hear and try ideas. Changing the shuttle mechanics might also have to include balance changes to make them less necessary on demand if the availability changes.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby saprasam » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:43 pm #579272

respawning will never work on TG
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:08 pm #579291

skoglol wrote:I still think changing how the shuttle works is necessary though. Many people have made good arguments for it in the past, and a lot of them make sense. I think we should try to get away from the notion that every round has to end with a shuttle call, as it doesnt make sense for a no threats boring round to end via emergency shuttle. As has also already been mentioned in this thread, shuttle often means whatever efforts to stabilize the situation are pointless, and people give up and leave instead. Im not saying we need 2-3 hour rounds all the time, but it is quite frankly pretty disheartening when the shuttle starts getting chain called at 25 minutes during your slow antag gimmick round or whatever.
Im not sure what the ultimate solution to this is, but I am more than willing to hear and try ideas. Changing the shuttle mechanics might also have to include balance changes to make them less necessary on demand if the availability changes.


I strongly agree that other round-ending mechanics should be investigated. We already have "crew victory" with stuff like rev, and I think that's a good direction to go in. There could also be composite round-end strategies that mostly don't revolve around antag hunting. Like, science has researched everything, the station integrity is above a certain threshold, power is running properly, only X antags left, and the round has gone on for at least an hour.

Anyway, I think all of the ideas like this complement the core idea of making the shuttle call a higher-threshold event. I think that should be implemented first, and then we can discuss adjacent solutions.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby oranges » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:13 am #579294

I think you should stop ur stupid one man crusade, but you dont' see me making threads about it

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:26 am #579300

almost every reply has indicated that many people agree with me

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Space Panda » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:33 am #579302

the poll says otherwise, nerd

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:50 am #579307

Space Panda wrote:the poll says otherwise, nerd

wow people with autism play space station 13? Now i've seen everything!

Reminder that a symptom of autism is a pathological resistance to any kind of change. Notice how zero arguments have been put forth defending the shuttle in its current state, so we can infer that it's people growing attached to the status quo hugbox

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Armhulen » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:35 am #579308

obi wan kaczynski wrote:
Space Panda wrote:the poll says otherwise, nerd

wow people with autism play space station 13? Now i've seen everything!

Reminder that a symptom of autism is a pathological resistance to any kind of change. Notice how zero arguments have been put forth defending the shuttle in its current state, so we can infer that it's people growing attached to the status quo hugbox

"Everyone agrees with me"
"What about the people who voted against the idea?"
"Well see jimbo they have autism"
I burst out laughing
Go to bed bro, she's not thinking about you.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby saprasam » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:45 am #579309

obi wan kaczynski wrote:
Space Panda wrote:the poll says otherwise, nerd

wow people with autism play space station 13? Now i've seen everything!

Reminder that a symptom of autism is a pathological resistance to any kind of change. Notice how zero arguments have been put forth defending the shuttle in its current state, so we can infer that it's people growing attached to the status quo hugbox

you made a forum account just to make this thread
actually baiting right now
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby iamgoofball » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:55 am #579314

obi wan kaczynski wrote:
Space Panda wrote:the poll says otherwise, nerd

wow people with autism play space station 13? Now i've seen everything!

Reminder that a symptom of autism is a pathological resistance to any kind of change. Notice how zero arguments have been put forth defending the shuttle in its current state, so we can infer that it's people growing attached to the status quo hugbox


the shuttle isnt the problem

the fact that rebuilding a room w/ machines and wiring and piping and disposals takes 30 minutes for 1 room is the problem

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:58 am #579315

Armhulen wrote:
obi wan kaczynski wrote:
Space Panda wrote:the poll says otherwise, nerd

wow people with autism play space station 13? Now i've seen everything!

Reminder that a symptom of autism is a pathological resistance to any kind of change. Notice how zero arguments have been put forth defending the shuttle in its current state, so we can infer that it's people growing attached to the status quo hugbox

"Everyone agrees with me"
"What about the people who voted against the idea?"
"Well see jimbo they have autism"
I burst out laughing

Everyone who voted "no" never chimed in with justification because there is none

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby XDTM » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:53 am #579319

iamgoofball wrote:
obi wan kaczynski wrote:
Space Panda wrote:the poll says otherwise, nerd

wow people with autism play space station 13? Now i've seen everything!

Reminder that a symptom of autism is a pathological resistance to any kind of change. Notice how zero arguments have been put forth defending the shuttle in its current state, so we can infer that it's people growing attached to the status quo hugbox


the shuttle isnt the problem

the fact that rebuilding a room w/ machines and wiring and piping and disposals takes 30 minutes for 1 room is the problem


Only gradually buffing construction until people stop calling the shuttle is likely to end up either being ineffective or overbuffing it (or both, depending on which players are online at the moment), since players won't have much incentive to change their habits from simply pressing the restart button.

Forcing them to do so by restricting the availablility of the shuttle (on top of the constructions buffs) would make the transition into a repair mentality much faster, i think. Once it grows solid roots, the 'crutch' of limiting shuttle calls will be less important; but i think it's necessary if we want to make this transition.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:57 am #579326

It'll just result in people finding a quiet safe locker to AFK in until the shuttle is callable so they can get their round end survival green
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby XDTM » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:36 am #579328

Super Aggro Crag wrote:It'll just result in people finding a quiet safe locker to AFK in until the shuttle is callable so they can get their round end survival green

Compared to force-ending the round for the other players who are enjoying it, it's still an improvement, even if it really was as frequent as you say.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby cacogen » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:06 pm #579332

XDTM wrote:Only gradually buffing construction until people stop calling the shuttle is likely to end up either being ineffective or overbuffing it (or both, depending on which players are online at the moment), since players won't have much incentive to change their habits from simply pressing the restart button.

Making the ability to rebuild easier will increase the likelihood that it'll be allowed to happen instead of a shuttle call.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby XDTM » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:08 pm #579333

cacogen wrote:
XDTM wrote:Only gradually buffing construction until people stop calling the shuttle is likely to end up either being ineffective or overbuffing it (or both, depending on which players are online at the moment), since players won't have much incentive to change their habits from simply pressing the restart button.

Making the ability to rebuild easier will increase the likelihood that it'll be allowed to happen instead of a shuttle call.

That's what i'd love to see, but in my experience people are slow to adapt to balance changes unless they're made to, either directly or indirectly. You can often notice this effect in MOBAs, for example, when a character suddenly becomes a meta pick months after a buff, because nobody noticed their new potential until someone popular enough exposed it.

If most players knew engineering well enough to rebuild a room, atmos and all, AND they followed code changes closely enough to notice when it gets buffed, then i'd also believe that shuttle limitations would not be necessary. But as it is i believe that it would only result in a few engineers pleading with the shuttle-calling crewmember to recall because they can fix the breach easily, and getting completely ignored most of the time.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Yenwodyah » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:37 pm #579340

"I'm bored" is actually the perfect shuttle call reason.
If the round isn't fun anymore, it should end.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:25 pm #579341

Yenwodyah wrote:"I'm bored" is actually the perfect shuttle call reason.
If the round isn't fun anymore, it should end.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Armhulen » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:01 pm #579343

The issue is that we should make more rounds less boring, every time a boredcall happens is a huge failure, FAILURE!
Go to bed bro, she's not thinking about you.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:54 pm #579344

Yenwodyah wrote:"I'm bored" is actually the perfect shuttle call reason.
If the round isn't fun anymore, it should end.
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Why aren't people reading (or even OP) the thread before replying? This has been addressed multiple times.

There are two problems:

1. The round is boring for a single player (captain or HoP) but exciting/developing for 40 other players, and the round unilaterally ends.
2. The round is boring for everyone.

This change intends to address (1), which is a major problem. (2) is a problem for more general improvements to solve.

Armhulen wrote:The issue is that we should make more rounds less boring, every time a boredcall happens is a huge failure, FAILURE!

This solves the aforementioned (2). Even if the round is exciting for many players, rounds still end, though. So these two changes need to happen together. A few people being bored shouldn't end a round. No amount of game improvements will prevent *everyone* from being bored 100% of the time.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:26 am #579357

The last six rounds in a row on Basil:

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Sybil:

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edit: wew, 10 for 10
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Last edited by obi wan kaczynski on Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:59 am, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby cacogen » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:42 am #579359

XDTM wrote:That's what i'd love to see, but in my experience people are slow to adapt to balance changes unless they're made to, either directly or indirectly. You can often notice this effect in MOBAs, for example, when a character suddenly becomes a meta pick months after a buff, because nobody noticed their new potential until someone popular enough exposed it.

If most players knew engineering well enough to rebuild a room, atmos and all, AND they followed code changes closely enough to notice when it gets buffed, then i'd also believe that shuttle limitations would not be necessary. But as it is i believe that it would only result in a few engineers pleading with the shuttle-calling crewmember to recall because they can fix the breach easily, and getting completely ignored most of the time.

Having to wait for players to learn that rebuilding is actually feasible is expected. I don't think buffing construction cancels out the need to add additional gating to shuttle calls, like polling living players.

Yenwodyah wrote:"I'm bored" is actually the perfect shuttle call reason.
If the round isn't fun anymore, it should end.

I agree. An emergency being the only valid IC reason to end the round is poorly thought out. But fun according to whom?
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:01 am #579365

cacogen wrote:I agree. An emergency being the only valid IC reason to end the round is poorly thought out. But fun according to whom?

Right now it's "the round ends if it's boring according to one of fifty players."

We have a mechanic for ending a boring round. It's called restart vote. If it's too hard to pass then it can be modified. But if the round is actually boring to most people, they a vote shouldn't be a problem.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Flatulent » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:16 am #579384

obi wan kaczynski wrote:Right now it's "the round ends if it's boring according to one of fifty players."

kek. you have to be utterly retarded to believe that to be the case. with the way our shuttle system is implemented, just ONE player can keep the rest of the crew hostage by infinitely recalling with a stolen comms board and head access. If you dont want round to end, try doing something about it. Just don’t be surprised when you get killed by the crew who no longer want to suffer 20 hour rounds of engineering autism

obi wan kaczynski wrote:We have a mechanic for ending a boring round. It's called restart vote. If it's too hard to pass then it can be modified. But if the round is actually boring to most people, they a vote shouldn't be a problem.

double kek. the restart votes are often impossible even in extreme situations on highpop because many players dont even know how to fucking vote or are ssd. the funny ice box 400% TD round on Terry comes to mind. The restart vote failed MULTIPLE times despite the game being an unplayable fucking mess from a gorillion runtimes grinding the server to a halt.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:58 am #579386

Flatulent wrote:kek. you have to be utterly retarded to believe that to be the case. with the way our shuttle system is implemented, just ONE player can keep the rest of the crew hostage by infinitely recalling with a stolen comms board and head access. If you dont want round to end, try doing something about it. Just don’t be surprised when you get killed by the crew who no longer want to suffer 20 hour rounds of engineering autism

Nah the not ending in 25 minutes game ending shouldnt require deathmatch mechanics, sorry

Flatulent wrote:double kek. the restart votes are often impossible even in extreme situations on highpop because many players dont even know how to fucking vote or are ssd. the funny ice box 400% TD round on Terry comes to mind. The restart vote failed MULTIPLE times despite the game being an unplayable fucking mess from a gorillion runtimes grinding the server to a halt.

the fuck is with pro-shuttle people not reading the posts they quote? I said that WE CAN CHANGE THE RESTART MECHANIC
Last edited by obi wan kaczynski on Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Flatulent » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:55 am #579390

obi wan kaczynski wrote:
Flatulent wrote:
Flatulent wrote:double kek. the restart votes are often impossible even in extreme situations on highpop because many players dont even know how to fucking vote or are ssd. the funny ice box 400% TD round on Terry comes to mind. The restart vote failed MULTIPLE times despite the game being an unplayable fucking mess from a gorillion runtimes grinding the server to a halt.

the fuck is with pro-shuttle people not reading the posts they quote? I said that WE CAN CHANGE THE RESTART MECHANIC

it already works fine in concept. the only way to improve it is to add a restart preference in game preferences. the options would be: 1. auto-restart vote when not voting; 2. dont count vote when not voting
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:20 am #579392

make restart vote not count people not voting, if u dont vote dont cry when u get ass impaled

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