Double-bladed energy sword rework

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robustgamer22217
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:05 pm
Byond Username: Evafan

Double-bladed energy sword rework

Post by robustgamer22217 » #715768

Preface

The double bladed-energy sword is meant to be a loud, conspicuous weapon capable of easily killing unarmed or lightly-armed targets en-masse (read: Assistants, Service Staff, Doctors, ect.).

However, due to the prevalence and ease-of-access of stun-based weapons, a desworder is usually isn't dealt with by cooperation or wit, but rather a lucky baton strike which renders him prone on the floor. The hit is usually delivered by a security officer or a valid hunter. Afterwards, it's easy to shove (3 second paralysis) and kill the traitor, usually with their own weapon. People avoid the double-bladed energy sword due to its random nature (source: it was revealed to me in a dream). Your life and death with this weapon is usually influenced solely by RNG.
The only form of counter play is either:
  • Quickly conceal the sword in bag and continue fighting when you collapse on the floor - not applicable to tele-batons, and risky all around. You might still get shoved with ease and drop your weapon - game over.
  • Teleport away before you collapse - semi-applicable to tele-batons, but the time to do so is usually very short, as most players will follow-up a successful baton hit with a shove - game over. Also, you might be teleported to a shitty or unsafe location - and get killed by a crewmember, now that you are without a weapon (and are usually already going loud and hunted by the crew)
  • Have stun immunity from chems - Bath-salts (take obnoxious amount of time to make and don't block stamina slowdown, deal high brain damage and are addictive), Meth, probably some other ones I forgot to list. This one is fine, but is un-fun to utilize and plain and simply boring to both set-up and deal with on each side.
Desword's success is RNG-based due to the block chance. 18 13 TC for a glorified energy sword which will lose against a single stun-baton strike. Recent nerfs to the desword's laser reflection chance (from 100% to 75%) hurt the weapon even more. Most players already know to never use laser weapons against de-sworders, so the laser-deflect quality would be usually used against beginner security officers (that usually aren't difficult to beat in regular hand-to-hand combat due to their unrobustness - they never really were a threat.)

Instead, the de-sword's laser-deflecting quality is a defensive one - officers are forced to engage you in melee combat, which in turn you will also lose due to random-block chance your weapon possesses.
From what I understand, the coders want to make the weapon more offensive and dangerous to deal with at the cost of decreased defense. This will be the main idea behind the rework.


Rework

(Note: In each scenario we assume that :unknownman: has combat-mode turned on and clicks :) exactly once.)
Against single target:

|
| :) <--- assistant
| :unknownman: <--- traitor with desword
|

Translated to in-game grid: both are facing each other and are next to each other (but not adjacent)
  • The desword hits :) twice per swing (32 brute x 2 = 64 damage) - critting :) in two swings. This makes it even with most stun-based weapons (which still take 1 swing to kill a de-sworder, mind you).
The hits can be either used as a single 64 dmg swing for wound calculation, or be calculated twice - each wound chance for each 32 dmg swing. I believe the actual chance would be similar regardless of the choice. The actual wound-chance per swing would probably increase because of the increased damage. - If this proves to be an issue, the numbers could be re-adjusted. I didn't actually do the math here, sorry

Against two targets

|
| :) 8-) <--- assistant :) , bartender 8-)
| :unknownman: <--- traitor with desword
|

in-game grid: Assistant-traitor same as above, bartender 8-) standing next to :) , but still adjacent to traitor (his melee range). Note: 8-) can be either standing on the left or right assuming he is still lined up with the assistant.
  • The double bladed energy sword hits :) for 32 brute damage and 8-) for 32 brute damage each on the same tick (when traitor clicks assistant)
This is essentially an AOE swing capable of hitting two people at once, at the cost of lower damage - this makes desword good against single targets or someone with a baton - deswords main counterplay. However, the de-sworder will still easily die if he pushes his luck against more than one assistant at a time - essentially forcing the crew to cooperate together in order to kill the de-sword traitor :unknownman:

Against three targets

|
| :honkman: :) 8-) <--- assistant :) , bartender 8-) , clown :honkman:
|.....:unknownman: <--- traitor with desword
|
(Note: Ignore the dots (".") - i couldn't format it properly otherwise.)
Grid: Assistant-traitor same as above, 8-) and :honkman: on each side of :) - making them adjacent to :unknownman: :toysword:
  • The double bladed energy sword hits :) for 32 brute damage and either :honkman: or 8-) , also for 32 brute damage - choosing at random each swing, as long as one of the doesn't exit range - then it's back to 2-person model (the one above it.)
As we can see, this makes the desword even more spotty and unreliable - making it even less effective in group combat - as it's damage will be lower than the (currently implemented) reendition of the desword. Again - we force :unknownman: to fight one/two :) maximum at a time or die miserably - the batons will eventually add up and overwhelm the traitor.


If :unknownman: is standing adjacent to :) and clicks him, he will only strike :) twice, if someone else is touching with :) and still inside traitor's melee range - they will be hit as well (splitting damage between them, 32 brute each).

Keep in mind that desword will only hit people next to the person you click.

...So

|
| :)
| :unknownman: :honkman:
|
---> :unknownman: hits both :) and :honkman: with desword, hitting each of them a single time for 32 brute - does not work (instead, :unknownman: hits :) for 64 dmg).


Nerfs and other changes:
  • [BUFF] flat 75% laser/disabler reflect, 30% bullet/physical reflect. - Laser deflect chance can be lowered if so desired.
  • [NERF] De-sword costs 18 TC again.
  • [BUFF] 75% melee block chance, if last hit was later than 60 seconds - absorbs (nullifies) the hit and turns off desword - traitor can turn it on again 2.5/3/4 (adjustable by coder for the sake of balance) seconds later, but
    the desword won't "absorb" another hit for at least 60 seconds. - higher numbers mean that the desworder actually has a gap in his defense - 0.5 or 1.5 seconds -- where they can't use their weapon (because its turned off)
  • [BUFF] Make de-sword have 15% block-chance against body-throws - instead of being knocked prone when hit with a body, it slows you down by 80% for 3 seconds and has a 30% chance of making you drop the desword on the floor. If blocked, will split the thrown body in two, gibbing it (or making it spill its organs) - for comedic effect.


    The point of these changes is to make de-sword more melee-centric - forcing the crew to fight a desworder together. The laser-reflect has to stay, as it forces the crew to fight :unknownman: in melee as opposed to kiting him with :revolver: . Furthermore, de-sword has the advantage in 1-on-1 fights thanks to its block chance, but will still succumb to collective efforts of the crew - and will still lose to bullet weapons. Reflect-chance for lasers can be further lowered if you wish, but keep it sane - putting it too low will simply let the crew kill the de-sworder from range without actually fighting him in melee. As body-throw buff: most people can see if someone is fishing for body-throws and can adjust their playstyle accordingly (retreat). If someone tries to body-throw them in melee, instead of an instant defeat, it gives both :unknownman: and :) an equal chance of getting the advantage (assuming it is an 1-on-1 scenario). 18 TC to accomodate for the increased damage, block and bodythrow buff. Desword can eat a single weapon strike, assuming you didn't get hit in the last 60 seconds - and then has normal 75% block chance. If that's too powerful, then the desword can have lowered block rate to something more sane, like 50%. This means that desword goes well against solo people with weapons and stun-batons but will likely lose if you fight more than 2 people at once.


    Closing thoughts

    Why change this?
    • It makes the de-sword a more varied weapon with clearer downsides - desword is a beast 1-on-1 but struggles taking on more than 2 crewmembers, and still loses to bullets/laser semi-frequently.
    • Fills out its intended role in the game's balance - loud weapon used for mass murder - while keeping ways for the crew to deal with it.
      • It removes RNG from the weapon (mostly) - making your defeats be due to your mistakes instead of dying to a lucky baton hit the other party landed on you.
      I'm not actually a coder, so my judgement might be wrong - its based solely on my experience as a robust murderboner /tg/-station player. If some mad soul actually decides to code this - you may or may not credit me - I don't mind either way. If anything, I would be glad my silly little idea made its way to the game.
Last edited by robustgamer22217 on Sat Jan 20, 2024 10:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Itseasytosee2me
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
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Re: Double-bladed energy sword rework

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #715780

Its a cool idea indeed, but i'm still convinced that this is an issue because stun batons are still win-sticks. But if we can accept that stun batons being powerful is healthy for the game, I can see where this buff if coming from.
(soulful post btw :D )
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Yobrocharlie
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:19 am
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Re: Double-bladed energy sword rework

Post by Yobrocharlie » #718565

D-sword doesn't drop when stunned (Unless something has changed, or im retarded regardless this is what i have witnessed first hand)

Also the d-sword is a "loud weapon" while being as concealable as a fucking pen i hate this modern idea of loud and silent weapons that has developed that all traitor related weapons should be easily concealable while boasting firepower that trumps anything else (only in the case of the d-esword being the best not very meta build melee build and the .357 being just amazing)

hell a loud build is somebody wearing a suit that doesnt let you know their identity and a sword that you can put in your pocket, that isnt loud thats sneaky because you can easily just de-activate the stealth suit and put the d-sword in your bag and boom your now crewmember again (assuming your identity was not known before),


also the idea of the AoE swing would make this very very strong and turn it from a very good melee weapon but not the best melee build to handsdown the very best melee weapon in the entire game- arguably trumping a geometer blood sword (Or whatever the cultist sacrificing heretic sword is called) also it doesn't take it at the cost of fucking "lower damage" you would deal more than energy sword damage with each swing anyway its just doubled, being able to deal sixty four damage in one swing would be ludicrous and be consistently capable of one hit decapping i think considering that the katana can and that doesnt even have any AP this does.
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Xkallubar
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:46 am
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Re: Double-bladed energy sword rework

Post by Xkallubar » #718602

desword is already super OP, doesn't need any buffs at all.
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Constellado
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:59 pm
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Re: Double-bladed energy sword rework

Post by Constellado » #718606

What it sounds like is it needs a counter.

What if deswords did not block attacks if the attacks were from behind?
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MooCow12
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:08 pm
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Re: Double-bladed energy sword rework

Post by MooCow12 » #718648

isnt there a swing combat rework? deswords could get a new balancing lever with the area they can hit.
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RedBaronFlyer
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Re: Double-bladed energy sword rework

Post by RedBaronFlyer » #718711

skill issue
WARNING, Prolonged exposure to my opinions can be mentally scarring or in some cases, FATAL
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I'm Eugine Adrian Hynes on Manuel, I'm very uncool.
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Super Aggro Crag wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:11 pm I assume he did it elsewhere because it's fucking goofball and he never half-asses his shitty ideas, he full asses them so both cheeks are absolutely slathered in shit
robustgamer22217
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:05 pm
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Re: Double-bladed energy sword rework

Post by robustgamer22217 » #718739

Batons are 1-click win sticks. Average TG player can easily secure a kill from a single baton hit because shove paralysis exists. Batons/tele-batons are by far the strongest weapon and the rework simply puts desword at even grounds with them, especially since the weapon has been historically known to cost 18 TC (Aka almost your whole traitor budget) but that has changed since prog-tot. Still, the speed at which the average progtot gains new TC isn't that high, so it shouldn't pose an issue, plus your whole kit consists of a loud weapon. (For the first ~10 minutes)
Yobrocharlie wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2024 10:48 am also the idea of the AoE swing would make this very very strong and turn it from a very good melee weapon but not the best melee build to handsdown the very best melee weapon in the entire game- arguably trumping a geometer blood sword (Or whatever the cultist sacrificing heretic sword is called) also it doesn't take it at the cost of fucking "lower damage" you would deal more than energy sword damage with each swing anyway its just doubled, being able to deal sixty four damage in one swing would be ludicrous and be consistently capable of one hit decapping i think considering that the katana can and that doesnt even have any AP this does.
Decapping doesn't exist anymore, or at least the coders have shown interest in removing it from the game, and wound/decap numbers can always be adjusted.


The only real issue I'm seeing is how a desword tot would handle other antagonists. I'd argue cult stun/heretic hand should pass through desword block, and lings have revival, stasis, fleshmend, speed-up, so they should be fine. Wizard can use spells, Nukies got guns, revs might struggle, but if they stick together, a single de-sworder should be dealt with. Also, I updated the buffs/nerfs section of the post to better clarify what I meant, so give it a read.
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Yobrocharlie
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:19 am
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Re: Double-bladed energy sword rework

Post by Yobrocharlie » #719542

robustgamer22217 wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 9:30 pm Batons are 1-click win sticks. Average TG player can easily secure a kill from a single baton hit because shove paralysis exists. Batons/tele-batons are by far the strongest weapon and the rework simply puts desword at even grounds with them, especially since the weapon has been historically known to cost 18 TC (Aka almost your whole traitor budget) but that has changed since prog-tot. Still, the speed at which the average progtot gains new TC isn't that high, so it shouldn't pose an issue, plus your whole kit consists of a loud weapon. (For the first ~10 minutes)
Yobrocharlie wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2024 10:48 am also the idea of the AoE swing would make this very very strong and turn it from a very good melee weapon but not the best melee build to handsdown the very best melee weapon in the entire game- arguably trumping a geometer blood sword (Or whatever the cultist sacrificing heretic sword is called) also it doesn't take it at the cost of fucking "lower damage" you would deal more than energy sword damage with each swing anyway its just doubled, being able to deal sixty four damage in one swing would be ludicrous and be consistently capable of one hit decapping i think considering that the katana can and that doesnt even have any AP this does.
Decapping doesn't exist anymore, or at least the coders have shown interest in removing it from the game, and wound/decap numbers can always be adjusted.


The only real issue I'm seeing is how a desword tot would handle other antagonists. I'd argue cult stun/heretic hand should pass through desword block, and lings have revival, stasis, fleshmend, speed-up, so they should be fine. Wizard can use spells, Nukies got guns, revs might struggle, but if they stick together, a single de-sworder should be dealt with. Also, I updated the buffs/nerfs section of the post to better clarify what I meant, so give it a read.
"Batons are 1-click win sticks" Quote of the century look buddy if you wish to win against security the solution is not to buff your melees to where they are even more busted but to just fucking use anti-stuns you can literally drink coffee and pop and epi and you wont fall down buddy. Like seriously TG SS13 is a game where you need specific items/builds to counter specific threats as I have said before this varies from threat to threat and high block builds excel greatly at dealing with targets that attack in quick succession combined with high blocking/armor you can negate up to (if you do a build right) around 85-90% of the oncoming damage or stam damage, Proper melee builds and batons are the hard counter to d-swords Most people think that you can just buy an infil suit and d-sword and turn your brain off but in reality no remember overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer I of all people know this far too well.
"A shitter am i? i will show you just how right you are."
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