medborg buff

[Deitus]

have we ever considered giving medborgs some kind of defib? thats the main thing that really seems to set it apart from human/lizard doctors and really limits them in a lot of respects. i guess it doesnt really have to be a defib, just some way to get a patient back into crit from death so that we can operate. i realize we can drag them to genetics, but its much slower, even if we do detach the power and cyro them. what do you guys think?

[Saegrimr]

Silicons have no interest in corpses, in fact by defibbing one them you'd be creating a human currently in harm and slowly dieing.

[Cik]

defibs i'm neutral on but they really need to be able to interact with the bloodbags at least. as it is these days they are moderately useless because not only is their healing slow but since critical patients are almost always at low blood you can't even really fix them. people always complain about secborg/engiborg dominance but medborgs should be one of the more common robot types but they are useless.

to function they really need

bloodbag/blood creation system/the ability to interact with IVdrips/deploy their own

what would be nice:
chemistry set for creating helpful mixes for internal beaker/syringe
stronger healing chems, including a brute/burn patch module. as it is they are really garbage at healing.
defib
the ability to transfer beaker <---> internal beaker without using your eyedropper 10000 times
the ability to use medivends

oh yeah, the hypo is really garbage. it recharges too slowly heals at a glacial pace and it's reserve for what are superbasic healing chems is very low. i'd set it's reserve for kelo bicari at 50 and make it inject 10 per click at least, but that's really just a bandaid fix. as a dedicated healing machine it's really poor, in my opinion the medibots are better at healing basic damage because at least you can drag them around and a player doesn't have to sit around clicking on some guy until he's got 100u in his system out of a hypo that's got 25 to start with.

i don't know why they are so poor; i'd really like to play them but as it is it's hard to justify. has anyone ever said "man, mediborgs are just too good. they need a nerf" i don't think so. they certainly aren't good at what they're supposed to be good at, even compared to the non-player mobs that are creatable as a 4 step process consisting of 10 seconds of clicking some stuff in robotics.

though i do have to admit they are pretty cute. so there's that i guess.

[Scones]

They need to be able to interact with bloodbags

That's it

[Takeguru]

I don't think they should be able to defib.

They need to be able to bloodbag, for sure.

They could use a buff to their healing as well.

[Gun Hog]

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/7734 Mediborg was intended to get a defib. It was denied on grounds of bad code.

[Cik]

like was said upthread, i'm not against defib but if it doesn't get added whatever. what it really needs is to fulfill it's primary purpose of healing living humans, which it's not great at.

i still don't really understand the whole patch vs injectable thing.. patches seems incredibly faster and more effective across the board. either give medborgs patches or give them some real healing chems.

[Scones]

I think this really brings up the question regarding borgs being as good as/better than humans at their jobs. Mediborg healing is pretty fine right now, it's honestly tolerable in comparison to SALGLUC. Blood bags are the one biggest issue with them.

There is no reason to give mediborgs a defib.

Give a mediborg patches or "real healing chems" and it will be better than an MD. Which is stupid. They heal pretty well as-is and fill the roll of being a SUPPORT unit for Medbay, like all silicons should be.

[Cik]

support does not equal worse in every way and borderline nonfunctional really

engiborgs are good at engineering, better than all but the most well geared engineer. what is the problem with having mediborgs on par or slightly above?

i don't even care about them being 'better' though technically they are already with the built in surgery tools. but what is the problem with equal? patches make doctors simply incredibly better at healing.

oh and if you think mediborgs are good at healing you should try healing someone out of crit with just your onboard equipment. it takes literal minutes for a dedicated healing machine. how long will it take for a doctor? like 15 seconds tops if he knows what he's doing.

edit: clarified

[Scones]

The chems heal fine. We don't need god-tier spaceworthy body retrieval revival healing machines.

If you think Mediborg now is "borderline nonfunctional" I'm guessing you didn't play prior to the post-Omnizine updates - Salgluc, no surgery tools. THAT was nonfunctional.

Right now you can:
- Perform Surgery on the go because you have a bed and full surgical suite built into you
- Heal moderate injuries with a selection of specialized chems
- Make full use of all Medbay equipment minus IVs

The healing chemicals are stupid regardless and I wish Goof would have just gone through with giving them "stabilized omnizine" that can't OD people. Just give them a blood synth in addition to their current toolkit and they'd be pretty good.

[Cik]

i did play during the post omnizine updates. while it was worse, it was only marginal; the surgical tools are very nice to have and a nice bit of flavor but they have no real application on healing anything; if they did i would agree with you that their addition significantly enhanced medborg. as it is surgeries are very rarely used, besides perhaps remove xenomorph (you are the xenomorph smell) and brain removal (for borging, though usually not carried out by borgs) if you had to remove bullets or whatever to stop bleeding i'd be all for it.

as it is though you rarely do surgery even as a borg set up for it just because of it's limited application

i'd still support a patch RCD system that uses energy to generate patches. this limits it somewhat while allowing them to heal as fast as a human does, and of course some sort of IV system. maybe even a dock like the bed so you can deploy them on the go.

i've never seen borgs as a true 'support option' though they are intended to support the station and it's human population, all modules are fully functional at their intended role; medborg should not be different in this respect IMO.

but like i said in my original post, blood is really the most important feature. anything else is secondary.

[Scones]

Patches are OP

Give Mediborgs a Blood Synthesizer.

[Cik]

is it legal to bump threads for attention?

[Not-Dorsidarf]

is it legal to bump threads for attention?

No, u sent to space prison

[Luke Cox]

Silicons have no interest in corpses, in fact by defibbing one them you'd be creating a human currently in harm and slowly dieing.

Being in crit is a lot less harmful than being dead.

[Cik]

not by traditional sillicon interpretation

[Luke Cox]

not by traditional sillicon interpretation

That makes no fucking sense. Isn't it less harmful for somebody to be in a state where they can be healed rather than dead?

[TheNightingale]

Silicons aren't worried about harm having happened, just it happening in the present. So since being dead equals maximum harm, they can't be harmed any more so long as they remain dead. It makes no sense, but it's rules-as-written how it works.

[Cik]

the traditional orthodoxy has been

preventing harm matters
no harm can happen to someone who is dead
defibbing someone creates a being again that can experience harm(and is experiencing oxygen damage as soon as they start breathing again)
creating harm is against law 1
law one prevents defibbing


in practice it doesn't prevent humans from defibbing people even though it probably should, but it kind of makes sense that a cyborg wouldn't be equipped with a defib for this reason.

there's a lot of grey areas in medical cyborgs though. is stabbing someone with a syringe harm? by game rules no but logically it seems reasonable to surmise that it would be the case.

oh and while no one actually does this it sort of prevents cloning too, because on a local scale it creates another being that is likely to be harmed.

anyway, nobody really actually sticks to these 'unspoken rules 'that sort of arise organically out of the station's medical equipment under asimov's laws. the only one that is generally cared about is the one that prevents you from reviving a harmful human as it is likely to cause harm (to that human and to other humans that human is likely to attack) which is fine really because that's the most reasonable one in my opinion.

it just seems weird because then the ideal asimovian station is a station that's either empty or entirely corpses. i suppose you could rewrite AI policy to say that dead humans are experiencing maximum harm and thus you are obligated to revive them at all times but it causes weird priority conflicts like you being forced to go rescue a corpse from space while a sec officer is getting eaten by the ling because the corpse is experiencing "more harm" than the currently alive sec officer.

[Gun Hog]

When I play AI, I define "harm" or "injury" as any action that would deplete my health reading of a human on suit sensors (absence of suit sensors does not equal lack of harm). Therefore, stunning someone is not harm. Flashing someone blind is not harm. Surgery that deals no damage is not harm. Furthermore, and this is a very grey area which is difficult to justify IC: I consider consent an acceptable excuse to ignore harm. I.E. Surgery that causes damage, brain removals, rage cages, etc. In these cases, I will at most ask them to not harm, but will not actively interfere or instruct a cyborg to do so.

it just seems weird because then the ideal asimovian station is a station that's either empty or entirely corpses. i suppose you could rewrite AI policy to say that dead humans are experiencing maximum harm and thus you are obligated to revive them at all times but it causes weird priority conflicts like you being forced to go rescue a corpse from space while a sec officer is getting eaten by the ling because the corpse is experiencing "more harm" than the currently alive sec officer.

I would LOVE for someone to write this into my laws and see what happens.

[Cik]

welllllllll

i suppose the logical course of action would be to deterministically wind back the universe and then turn the galaxy into a megascale supercomputer to recreate the minds of all the dead humans from history, wouldn't it? seems like quite the project. it might end up inconveniencing a few humans in the short term, though :^)

edit: it reminds me of that old story from /tg/ about the elf who's defining characteristic was that she was an immortal psycho. an infinite lifespan and no sense of proportion is a potent thing.

[Actionb]

The IV drop already has some drag n drop functionality. If borgs could drag n drop the bloodpack onto the IV drop to attach it, we'd be golden.

Mediborg's healing is fine. You're a portable sleeper, not Reed-Glover-on-Wheels. Though being able to get some upgrades from science in the form of more potent chemicals would be nice to see.

Defib? Please no. Dead meatbags are great for asimov borgs - them trying to revive you via cloning should be seen as a courtesy.

[Shad0vvs]

Bumping this as now defibs are the only way to stop heart attacks, so it might be wanted, or might not be still.