Emagged borgs caught too fast.

[Falamazeer]

I played a round late last night that was severely disappointing, I got Emagged and told to kill and loot Ham Barton, but the AI knew within two minutes that I was no longer synced to him, used sec channel to arrange my ambush in perma (Couldn't find him anywhere, decided to check if he got caught as a double agent) and I died to an ion rifle. Shortly after, the same thing happened to an engiborg who got got the same damn way.

Isn't it completely against the point of it all if the AI knows when you are no longer loyal that quickly?
I feel it is, and I propose that emagged borgs should appear to be synced to the AI as they are meant to be.

[Cik]

i was the AI. unfortunately this is kind of difficult to deal with either way. though you do still show up as loyal in the status window, the robotics console won't show you as a slaved cyborg, which is what gave you away. i say it's difficult to deal with because either way you go it's a massive power advantage for one side.

1. leave it the way it is, the AI has a huge advantage as long as it's on the ball and checks the console every few minutes. it can semi-reliably protect itself against rogue cyborgs coming in to kill it, and can also probably preempt a rampage by a singleton or group of rogue cyborgs.

2. change it so that rogue cyborgs stay on the robotics console and appear normal, but cannot be locked or blown by the AI. gives a massive advantage to cyborgs; as it is, the AI is totally defenseless against a single cyborg, which can easily walk through it's layered defenses and beat it to death with a crowbar. dying as the AI sucks because it usually takes 20 minutes to revive you if it ever happens. there are rounds where i die and am left dead for an hour+ because NO ONE NOTICES
since traitors really benefit from killing the AI, and because emagging cyborgs is semi-trivial, the AI is going to get roasted every round there's a single emagged cyborg and a decent traitor.

in that round you were just unlucky to be honest, your emagging coincided almost perfectly with the check i do on the robotics console every 10-15 minutes. i'm not against changing it, i'm just pointing out that it swings the pendulum realllly far to the other side if you do.

[whodaloo]

from what i understand they show up on the 'sync borgs' list but don't show on the cyborg console. using these two facts in conjunction makes it way too easy to meta when borgs are emagged. as someone who has gotten owned by an AI periodically checking its consoles, i agree that it's too easy to find out that borgs are emagged. i think making them completely unable to be blown and maybe letting the emagged borg override a lockdown would be better (but still showing up on the RD console)

[invisty]

"Zero effort" moves like this that can instantly reveal an antagonist and ruin the round for multiple people shouldn't even be a feature.

[Ergovisavi]

It's almost like the AI being an near omniscient being is terrible gameplay.

Crazy idea, that.

[whodaloo]

It's almost like the AI being an near omniscient being is terrible gameplay.

Crazy idea, that.

remove remove remove remove remove

[Anonmare]

You could have Emagged borgs show up as normal on the console to the AI's perspective but none of it's commands actually "do" anything. If the AI tries to lock a borg down, it gets the lockdown message and the emagged borg receives a notification that an attempt was made to lock them down so they have some time to "play dead" for the AI. The AI can transmit a "destroy" command but it won't be received by the borg, necessitating crew intervention and proves a borg is emagged.

I feel it's more of a middle ground without making emagged borgs undetectable or the AI omnipotent, since it gives borgs a chance against being instantly found out but let's the AI spot them too if they keep moving about, or for a second party to confirm if they're genuinely locked down. The only fool-proof way of being sure they're emagged is to destroy them, but it has the inherent risk of the AI being wrong and destroying a valuable asset so it prevents meta-ing.

Also, as for Emagged borgs being able to kill the AI too easily, may I make a suggestion? Could we have turrets register them as targets and fire at them, plus remove them being able to interface with turret control? Just so an AI can actually get some warning between a borg waltzing in and being crowbarred to death, maybe get a flash off or two as well. It wouldn't be that big of a deal for antags, as they already have the means of turning off turret control with an emag and most of the time the AI's turrets are on stun so it wouldn't damage a borg either, just warn the AI and give them some defence.

Lorewise you can explain it as the emag frying the IFF transponder or something like that.

[Cobby]

In what situation would an AI have a bounded borg lockdowned outside of "Law 2 Lockdown Memeborg-231"?

There's really no point for the AI to be able to view that console anyways as Borgs Bounded to that AI should be in compliance with that AI's laws, Especially when you have a status tab that shows you everything you need to manage your borgs. The console itself allows borgs to be used as mobile-explosives, so it would make sense for the console to be created with the knowledge that Asimov-AI's shouldn't be messing with such.

AI shouldn't have access to the console. It doesn't make sense gameplay-wise [except to powerplay Emagged Borgs like we're seeing here] nor does it make sense RP wise [You're gonna have access to lockdown/blow a 'rogue' borg that's enslaved to you? hmmm].

[Scones]

Remove console access from normal AIs, grant it to traitor/malf

[Anonmare]

If we're going down this route, Malf/Traitor AIs should be able to access ALL the Cyborgs on the console.
On the upside, it will make the "Borg, AI is harming. Law 1 kill it." tactic no longer viable.

[Incomptinence]

I was Ham Barton. I heard Rodrik the roboticist call for volunteers over the radio after I ambushed him with a room of carp and stole his documents so I tattled on him to the AI then several other people (lot of spare time when you are chameleoning). Wintermute is a very good AI though and I can't say they wouldn't have caught it on their own console checking is like enshrined as rogue borgs 101 for AIs.

If anything I would lean to console commands that do nothing and NO notification on a blow attempt which would give the AI a pretty high stakes test which also discourages normal borgs acting like dicks.

[Cik]

yeah i remember that. the tipoffs got more and more blatant. to be fair i would have nailed my cyborgs sooner but sec was very busy that round chasing after a totally non-existent gang problem. the first one who disappeared was zizzit, my engiborg. at the time i wrote that off as a simple unslaving, considering he wasn't really doing anything evil or exhibiting any real behavioral quirks that syndified borgs usually do (following people around, killing the AI, repiping atmos for flooding, destroying robotics consoles, killing people.. the list goes on) when the second cyborg also disappeared i started trying to push sec into apprehending the cyborgs and checking if they were rogue or not. they went a little crazy with the ion though.


i'm not really against changing the robotics console, i've sort of desisted from my earlier habits of checking it every two minutes because i do agree it's rather unsporting. someone said you could rewire turrets to attack cyborgs but if you do that you might end up making the syndiborg useless, which isn't good. i at least like to think that i play AI because i enjoy playing a robotic asimovian construct, not because i like to crazypowergame killallhumansyolo9001 so nerfing it doesn't bother me that much.

edit: the other thing is i think you guys could have just killed or subverted me, for whatever reason the cyborgs were spread out, you had a reasonable amount of time to deathball through whoever you wanted dead or to destroy the robotics console or to steal the AI upload and build one. security was very busy. it might seem like i'm being a dickhead but you might have more success if you give the cyborgs more direction.

[Falamazeer]

He told me, and presumably the engiborg, DO NOT GET CAUGHT, specifically, kill ham, steal his bag, that's it.
Killing the AI is loud.

Honestly, it ruins the emagging at all if the AI can know when it happens, same with anyone.
All stealth is dead the moment that card swipes if there is an indication.

[Cheimon]

In what situation would an AI have a bounded borg lockdowned outside of "Law 2 Lockdown Memeborg-231"?

There's really no point for the AI to be able to view that console anyways as Borgs Bounded to that AI should be in compliance with that AI's laws, Especially when you have a status tab that shows you everything you need to manage your borgs. The console itself allows borgs to be used as mobile-explosives, so it would make sense for the console to be created with the knowledge that Asimov-AI's shouldn't be messing with such.

AI shouldn't have access to the console. It doesn't make sense gameplay-wise [except to powerplay Emagged Borgs like we're seeing here] nor does it make sense RP wise [You're gonna have access to lockdown/blow a 'rogue' borg that's enslaved to you? hmmm].

Sometimes when you're playing AI, you get a really bad cyborg. Either it doesn't understand asimov, it's deliberately breaking it, or it's toeing the line so much the crew is certain it's rogue. (Or doing the same things with a different lawset). Remember that when a cyborg does this, especially if it doesn't look emagged, this affects the AI's credibility as well, and massively increases the chances of some do-gooder smashing into your core and killing you.

It is unbelievably helpful to be able to just lock down that cyborg, because quite often that's the only thing that will force some players to respond to you, take into account what you think they're doing wrong, and change. It means you can punish cyborgs for breaking laws if they appear to need it (and this is an unusual thing, but something you very much want to have) and can even threaten to blow them if they seem really shit. It also means you can pacify the crew in the event of such a cyborg being around, because they'll be happier with you actually doing something about the apparently rogue slave.

Without it, the crew would have to rely on the captain or RD to help deal with bad cyborgs (or the admins, which is even worse for everyone when there's an IC solution currently in-game) and the AI would have no way to control the cyborgs slaved to it: no leverage over them at all.

Is this necessary a lot of the time? Fuck no. Is it supremely helpful to have this IC de-escalator when it is? Hell yes. Is it really important as a deterrent? Absolutely, without the ability to lock down and blow the AI has no leverage over poorly behaving slaved cyborgs.

Oh, a couple of examples to make it clear what I'm talking about. One round I had a security cyborg that got it into his head he could arrest someone for theft of eva items and then not let them go when they ordered him to. Binary questioning did nothing, so I locked him down and had a conversation to make sure he understood asimov before unlocking him. Secborg was slaved, just didn't know how the lawset worked. Another round, I had some people poorly subvert me (I can't remember the specifics, but it was something along the lines of defining themselves as sole humans in a non human-based lawset). Said subverter had binary access, and clearly upload access, and some cyborgs were helping them (against the actual nature of the lawset), so I needed to lock them down in order to explain via holopad.

[Cik]

He told me, and presumably the engiborg, DO NOT GET CAUGHT, specifically, kill ham, steal his bag, that's it.
Killing the AI is loud.

Honestly, it ruins the emagging at all if the AI can know when it happens, same with anyone.
All stealth is dead the moment that card swipes if there is an indication.

there's an indication if you scroll to the console and look at it. all of your inbuilt borg status things continue telling you the borg is slaved. the detection is not exactly automatic.

i only figured it out so quickly because someone PDA'ed me and said "oh, this guy is probably building a cyborg army, be on the lookout." so i was.

[oranges]

it's probably a bug.

[Cik]

it's probably a bug.

if it is it's been around for literal years. when i started playing AI i was taught to use that to figure out if i was going to be killed, AFAIK.

[Actionb]

I'd say emagged cyborgs get caught less often. As an AI, I have used the robotics console to find out how my cyborgs are doing: are they still active, what module are they? Now the AI has a neat list in the status tab with all the information it needs. And this list does not update when a cyborg has been unlinked/emagged.

Sure, if I am paranoid, suspicious or was given a hint that the cyborgs are rogue, I will check the robotics console and the cyborg upload console (to rule out simply unlinked, AI-free cyborgs). And even if it turns out that some of your borgies are emagged, you still can't do shit about it.
You need somebody with robotics access to lock down those cyborgs - and this same person can identify emagged cyborgs just as easily as the AI can.
In all honesty, considering a small group of robust cyborgs can totally skullfuck a station, the fact that the AI can call out (reminder: the AI itself has no way of stopping rogue borgs) this threat is a fair enough price to pay.

[Gun Hog]

I coded the AI's built in borg checker to help make emag detection less likely, because the borg console not only lacks a refresh button, it is annoying to go back to it. Most lazy AIs will check only its status screen, as I figured that the console is used primarily to check up their well-being. It is my belief that this has indeed reduced the number of caught borgs, but I cannot be certain. A diligent and paranoid would still notice the chance, and such AI players would likely remember how many borgs it is supposed to have - I do not believe my update has changed that beyond making it easier to cross-reference both lists should the AI player forget a name. It is for that same reason that I removed the check for if a borg is locked or not (emags will lock a borg for a few seconds).

I suppose the lockdown/detonate command blocker would help, but then the same paranoid AI players would simply try to lock them and know by watching the borg to see if it moves, or some other clever tactic. Do it for human users as well, if the goal here is to buff traitor-controlled borgs. (Might cause more issues, because it would affect Traitor AI, Malf, and Illegal-mdoule borgs as well)

[Scones]

Which reminds me that illegal module should REALLY just add the contraband module, not break the cover + fuck with the console

[Cheimon]

It breaks the cover? I thought even an emag didn't do that if you only emag the insides and not the cover lock.

[Anonmare]

It doesn't break the cover though, just the interface that makes it *look* emagged.

Back on topic, I stand by my original suggestion of a fake sync with the Robotics console, even that will increase emagged Borgs stealth. If you're worried about AIs randomly trying a lockdown to catch a borg out, you could make it so lockdowns take a second or two to affect a borg instead of being instant. It gives an emagged borg warning and time to fake being locked down if the AI's suspicious.

Personally, when I'm an AI and one of my borgs is acting suspiciously and no longer synced, I depower+bolt my satellite Airlocks which protects me against everything but Engieborgs, and the tell-tale sound of an RCD usually gives me time to warn the crew about the rogue borg and hurry a Scientist into locking it down. Well, the last part usually doesn't happen to be honest.

[Cik]

i don't know if it's really an issue. i play both borg and AI constantly and i've never seen it as bullshit that you can't expect to dodge the AI forever; hell, even if it calls you out as a rogue borg if you just keep in maint and avoid public places security will rarely find and kill you. unless you're killing people in the hallways you are rarely blown. if the emagger wants a slow-burn plan, he should just subvert the AI which is trivial with a borg's help. hell, an engiborg with help in one step can build the console by itself, once you subvert the AI it's very easy to remain undetected for all the borgs under it's control, as they have an overseeing eye that's now on your team.

the only reason the two borgs from the OP were even caught was a perfect storm of double agent tipoff+borg console+determined security+they were separated from their controller, alone in the middle of security against an ion rifle. take out any one of these things and they might not have been caught at all.

[Gun Hog]

How many rounds are you using to judge this? If it is just one or a few, this is not really that big a deal where it warrants a change.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I'd say emagged cyborgs get caught less often. As an AI, I have used the robotics console to find out how my cyborgs are doing: are they still active, what module are they? Now the AI has a neat list in the status tab with all the information it needs. And this list does not update when a cyborg has been unlinked/emagged.

Sure, if I am paranoid, suspicious or was given a hint that the cyborgs are rogue, I will check the robotics console and the cyborg upload console (to rule out simply unlinked, AI-free cyborgs). And even if it turns out that some of your borgies are emagged, you still can't do shit about it.
You need somebody with robotics access to lock down those cyborgs - and this same person can identify emagged cyborgs just as easily as the AI can.
In all honesty, considering a small group of robust cyborgs can totally skullfuck a station, the fact that the AI can call out (reminder: the AI itself has no way of stopping rogue borgs) this threat is a fair enough price to pay.

If you know your borgs are emagged, you can keep any non-engiborg out of your core by bolting the core door and cutting Environment on your APC. Also works vs syndieborgs.

[invisty]

If you know your borgs are emagged, you can keep any non-engiborg out of your core by bolting the core door and cutting Environment on your APC. Also works vs syndieborgs.

I feel this ought to fall under the same "dont bolt EVA at roundstart" rule but really, rushing the core as syndieborg is so fucking lame and un-fun it should be discouraged.

[Cik]

If you know your borgs are emagged, you can keep any non-engiborg out of your core by bolting the core door and cutting Environment on your APC. Also works vs syndieborgs.

I feel this ought to fall under the same "dont bolt EVA at roundstart" rule but really, rushing the core as syndieborg is so fucking lame and un-fun it should be discouraged.

i don't generally use that unless i catch it coming in from the external airlocks which is very rare. syndiborgs used to be premier assault platforms but they've been hit with a very long nerfchain; half of their value is AI killing these days, remove that and you might as well not even bother. if that sort of thing catches on they will be moderately useless.

[lumipharon]

People buy syndie borgs explicitly to kill the AI.
If there is a semi competent AI during a nuke op round, it makes it x5 harder for the ops, with constant bolted airlocks/firelocks/etc slowing them down.

[Cik]

right, which is why i don't exploit bolt+poweroff from roundstart, it feels too meta for me even though it's probably(?) not against the rules.

[lumipharon]

Oh yeah, turning off atmospheric fnr is super shitty.

[Actionb]

right, which is why i don't exploit bolt+poweroff from roundstart, it feels too meta for me even though it's probably(?) not against the rules.

It is against the rules, because it is meta (in this case: doing stuff to prevent something that MIGHT happen). It's like atmos proofing only with airlocks.
To reiterate what dorsi said: If you know your borgs are emagged... sure go ahead and make your sat a maze of stealthbolted&depowered airlocks.
Despite powering down your core airlock being a very logical step to improve your defenses (law 3), doing it at roundstart gets you bwoinked. I've had a talk with leibniz about this a few months back and while I was defending my anti-syndiborg strategy (shitty motion sensors, etc.), I eventually agreed that he was right in calling it metagaming.

[Shadowlight213]

Which reminds me that illegal module should REALLY just add the contraband module, not break the cover + fuck with the console

Illegal module is basically an emag minus changing the lawset to syndie. Cover can be relocked with an id btw.