Default Lethal Weapons for Security

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:58 pm #117228

Bottom post of the previous page:

I think they both get hunting rifles.

The Security Rifle is just a concept I'm throwing up, I'm more focused on the stock pistol and if we should make it standard issue or not. As well as the Security Auto Rifle.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:59 pm #117229

Steelpoint wrote:About six or so non-lethal magazines in the general armoury with five lethal magazines in the secure armoury. HoS and Warden will spawn/have in locker their own lethal mags so as to not immediently draw on the Armoury's supply.

Proactive Warden's would be wise in ordering more ammo to supplement security's ammo reserve.

The warden would order this through cargo right? Or would he just be able to make it with an autolathe.

Also yeah the pistol should totally be standard issue, but having it be a better det revolver is a bad idea, it needs to do stamina damage. Also consider making the amount of lethal rounds in the armoury to about 6 or 7 or so, half of what would be the nonlethals if there's a full sec department.

Auto Rifle should remain as it is, wardens own personal weapon.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:13 pm #117233

E-swords would need a drop in price since the defence against energy-based weapons is it's biggest advantage, especially when made into a double. Personally I'd have the stun rounds behave the same as tasers do currently and count as energy weapons but that's just me.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:29 pm #117248

Without a way to reliably source more ammunition (and no, cargo is not a reliable source in any team-based antag round) I can't see these as being much fun for security. Taser recharging is a reliable mechanic that really works. For the same reason, I think I'd take out a laser gun at the first sign of trouble. That also has the advantage that I don't need to shift magazines around just to use deadly force.

At the moment, if a threat warrants it I can taser, switch hands, take out a laser gun, and unload it into the threat. That wouldn't be possible with this, and I can't see myself wanting something with lower utility.

If you're intending this as a security nerf, fine. But it is, with the exception of energy shield/sword mechanics, a nerf. Three extra taser shots is not worth the difference in usefulness.

Spoiler:

Not-Dorsidarf · Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:00 pm

Plus the AI will be anti-sec all the time, too

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:29 pm #117263

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Plus the AI will be anti-sec all the time, too

If it does no brute on nonlethals for the pistols, then it's not harm.

Takeguru · Post by **Takeguru** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:31 pm #117273

I don't see the AI caring about detectives gunning people down.

I don't think a lot of them know that the detective's revolver causes brute, though

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:24 pm #117282

Takeguru wrote:I don't see the AI caring about detectives gunning people down.

I don't think a lot of them know that the detective's revolver causes brute, though

I've had mediborgs almost kill me by letting up Ops while I was trying to cuff them so some of them do.

Incomptinence · Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:41 pm

Takeguru wrote:I don't see the AI caring about detectives gunning people down.

I don't think a lot of them know that the detective's revolver causes brute, though

Or the titanic stink that opposing the use of the det revolver generates is just so tiresome and annoying they just let it pass.
Times when as AI I have suggested the Detective switch to a taser for combat and they listened is about zero, this was back before the crippling of tasers too.

You stand in the way of sec they try to kill you, the AI might get banned depending on policy if it bolts them in and the sabotage of AI and borgs will probably be found valid. As icing on the cake they go and beg for your removal because they hate the conflict and want free reign.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:17 pm #117296

Just give Sec officers a requisition form at the start of the round, let them click on it and select between the taser and the pistol + ammo.

Maybe put an ammo press in the Armory to give the Warden something to do in his spare time.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:30 am #117304

I could get behind the ammo press thing, but it would have to be strictly low output. Also the pistols doing 35 stamina damage, 25 brute damage as I said earlier.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:48 am #117349

I could just throw some boxes full of dozens of bullets that need to be manually inserted into a magazine?

Anyway here's a neat little feature, if you remove a bullet from a stun magazine (which now deals 60 Stamina damage) the actual bullet will be blue tipped, though if fired there will be no blue tip on the casing

ExplosiveCrate · Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:52 am

You'd also have to drastically reduce the cost of an energy shield if you're replacing tasers, because then it's just a shittier esword unless the ops somehow give RnD enough time to manufacture energy weapons.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:12 am #117356

ExplosiveCrate wrote:You'd also have to drastically reduce the cost of an energy shield if you're replacing tasers, because then it's just a shittier esword unless the ops somehow give RnD enough time to manufacture energy weapons.

Or just buff the eshield to have more ballistic block chance.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:39 am #117357

WT-550 Security Automatic Rifle is mostly finished.

The WT-550 Rifle is reserved for emergency situations, the rifle holds 20 bullets per magazine and deals 25 brute damage per hit. It is capable of burst fire or single shot fire modes.

Security Tactical Officer With WT-550

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:43 am #117359

Quick question, can you make it so security belts can hold the ammo of these guns?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:45 am #117361

Sure.

The final weapon will be a high damage weapon for the HoS. It'll deal about 80+ damage per hit but have a low mag size (3 to 5 bullets) and have a low fire rate (5 to 10 ticks per round), for example the c20r has a 2 tick delay inbetween firing the gun. Meaning this weapon will reward good accuracy and being conservative over firing wildly.

Also ammo for the gun will be expensive to order in, and there will be only one spare mag for the gun on station.

---

The 550 Auto rifles will be placed in new 'tactical' closets along with the sec tac armour in the new high-risk area of the armoury.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:51 am #117364

Is sec tac armor a new thing? If it is, you mind dropping the stats on it?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:55 am #117366

Its already in the game, its essentially bullet proof armour but with a fancier name.

My intention it to do what Bay does and have four or five lockers full of 'tac' equipment, which is essentially the Sec Bul/Tac Armour along with the 550 Rifle.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:35 am #117382

Merge this in post haste.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:41 am #117384

The Z8 Security Marksman Rifle is mostly finished. (and will likely never be added cause 'lol he buff his job')

The Z8 marksman Rifle is a unique weapon only available to the station Head of Security, or whoever he issues it to. The rifle holds five rounds per magazine and deals 80 damage per hit (number pending) as well as 55 Stamina damage. The weapon however suffers from a slow rate of fire (2 to 5 seconds, number pending) and it will also stutter a target if a round connects. In addition ammo for this weapon is expensive to order and there is only one spare magazine on the station.

Head of Security With Z8 Rifle

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:50 am #117387

MERGE WHEN

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:52 am #117388

I'm going to clean it up, do the armoury map changes and then push a PR/Feedback Thread in the fullness of time.

Quick recap of the three guns. Feedback on damage numbers and whatnot would be appreciated.

Pistol: 10 rounds per mag. Defaults to stun rounds (60 Stam, 0 Dam), optional lethal rounds (25 dam).

Auto rifle: 20 rounds per mag. Lethal rounds (25 dam).

Marksman rifle: HoS Only. 5 rounds per mag, long refire time. Lethal rounds (80 dam, 55 stam).

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:56 am #117390

Steelpoint wrote:I'm going to clean it up, do the armoury map changes and then push a PR/Feedback Thread in the fullness of time.

Quick recap of the three guns. Feedback on damage numbers and whatnot would be appreciated.

Pistol: 10 rounds per mag. Defaults to stun rounds (60 Stam, 0 Dam), optional lethal rounds (25 dam).

Auto rifle: 20 rounds per mag. Lethal rounds (25 dam).

Marksman rifle: HoS Only. 5 rounds per mag, long refire time. Lethal rounds (80 dam, 55 stam).

Stats seem pretty good, but didn't you say something about there being nonlethal round for the auto rifle or did we drop that.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:58 am #117391

I could make some but I figured that if security is cracking out the heavy gear then 'non-lethal' is no longer a viable option.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:59 am #117392

Nah it's fine how it is, I was just wondering about it since we were talking about it earlier in the thread.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:10 pm #117399

PR is up, feedback thread is also up: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4626

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:14 pm #117401

InB4 blocked by cheriden

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:52 pm #117422

I love Sec getting new toys, and this pr is mega cool, but 80 brute seems completely insane to me

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:53 pm #117423

We're talking about it on IRC. I'll likely lower it a bit and get rid of the stam damage.

its early days and its not set in stone.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:07 pm #117427

I have no idea how this will end up but in reference to steelpoints pr, it'd be cool if you swapped the automatic rifle with the prototype smg that RND currently makes. Mostly for fluff reasons, so we can say tech actually moves forward or something.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:12 pm #117429

For the love of god the asspain in that PR thread is palpable. Can't we just give traitors cool new stuff as well, rather than letting everything fucking stagnate and never get new things because MUH BALANCE

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:18 pm #117432

What if traitors could buy slim bulletproof armour but possibly as a tie item so it clips onto jumpsuits. Maybe even ballistic shields. If this change pulls through, resistance to bullets for certain antags could be upped, like ling shields or ling body armour.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:21 pm #117433

Good idea, though it would need to be either a invisible or common item as a tie is very obvious.

Screemonster · Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:25 pm

Wyzack wrote:For the love of god the asspain in that PR thread is palpable. Can't we just give traitors cool new stuff as well, rather than letting everything fucking stagnate and never get new things because MUH BALANCE

no idea why they didn't show up in this thread when things were being discussed before any coding was done

OH WAIT WHAT DOES GITHUB SUCK AT

Not-Dorsidarf · Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:59 pm

Screemonster wrote:
Wyzack wrote:For the love of god the asspain in that PR thread is palpable. Can't we just give traitors cool new stuff as well, rather than letting everything fucking stagnate and never get new things because MUH BALANCE
no idea why they didn't show up in this thread when things were being discussed before any coding was done

OH WAIT WHAT DOES GITHUB SUCK AT

They're showing up to bitch in the PR because they ignored the Idea Forum post, because they thought it was such an unbelievably bad idea it wouldn't be coded. Now it's been coded and put up for review, so they're signing up to github to say why they don't like it

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:02 pm #117450

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
Screemonster wrote:
Wyzack wrote:For the love of god the asspain in that PR thread is palpable. Can't we just give traitors cool new stuff as well, rather than letting everything fucking stagnate and never get new things because MUH BALANCE
no idea why they didn't show up in this thread when things were being discussed before any coding was done

OH WAIT WHAT DOES GITHUB SUCK AT
They're showing up to bitch in the PR because they ignored the Idea Forum post, because they thought it was such an unbelievably bad idea it wouldn't be coded. Now it's been coded and put up for review, so they're signing up to github to say why they don't like it

Most of their thought process is pretty invalid, shit and out of touch with the current state of the game.

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:17 pm #117487

Honestly if we're discussing Sec being undergunned, it means that the base parameters of the game are being stretched too much and antags are becoming overpowered.

Why not just nerf the offending antag types before drastically overhauling Sec and unbalancing things even worse?

This will turn into an arms race before it actually fixes anything. Balance helps the game, and giving Sec lethals isn't really balance.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:17 pm #117488

Tunder wrote:Honestly if we're discussing Sec being undergunned, it means that the base parameters of the game are being stretched too much and antags are becoming overpowered.

Why not just nerf the offending antag types before drastically overhauling Sec and unbalancing things even worse?

This will turn into an arms race before it actually fixes anything. Balance helps the game, and giving Sec lethals isn't really balance.

Because adding new content is fun and interesting and just keeping the same shit and tweaking it gets stale?

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:19 pm #117489

Tornadium wrote:
Because adding new content is fun and interesting and just keeping the same shit and tweaking it gets stale?

Only if the new content is balanced, otherwise it's unfun for anyone who isn't directly affected by the new content.

Change for change's sake is and always has been a poor argument for it.

TechnoAlchemist · Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:26 pm

If sec gets standard lethals it should be laser based, not ballistic based.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:25 pm #117520

TechnoAlchemist wrote:If sec gets standard lethals it should be laser based, not ballistic based.

They don't get standard lethals, they spawn with nonlethal stamina damage bullets.

TechnoAlchemist · Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:22 am

Zilenan91 wrote:
TechnoAlchemist wrote:If sec gets standard lethals it should be laser based, not ballistic based.

They don't get standard lethals, they spawn with nonlethal stamina damage bullets.

Addressing the thread not the PR

Takeguru · Post by **Takeguru** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:40 am #117578

I agree with most of the complaints here.

It would necessitate changing most antag modes in addition to what is already in the PR

Nuke Ops and traitor in particular, but rev, gang, and ling get fucked over by it as well

Syndicate gear, bloodred hardsuits and the esword and shield in particular are geared towards energy defense currently.

There's 2 options to fix that, as far as I can tell.

>Make them block both, which makes them FAR better than they currently are
>Switch their energy/ballistic defense values, INCLUDING deflect chance

Either one ruins balance.
The second one in particular makes the pretty anemic laser weapons into nasty anti-ops/tator gear

This sort of effort would be better applied to making Security's energy based gear better, while maybe adding a single (Decent) ballistic weapon as a bit of a counter to eshield ops

Riot shotguns are nice for the rank and file, but giving sec a heavy hitter like the Ion Rifle is for malf would be nice.
The rifle would be good for that.
Something that counters ops without completely fucking the balance for the mode.

I'm not sure if it can fit in armor storage, but with this route I'd make it so it doesn't, and can't be cut down like a shotgun, so it stays in the armory/HoS office until there's a real use for it

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:55 pm #117686

Just give officers laser pistols with half the charge capacity of laser guns. Done.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:58 pm #117688

Nuke Ops take 10 bullets to stun.

Gangsters take 5 bullets to stun.

I'm going to make a chameleon armour for traitors that has some protection.

We'll see in game how the change goes as MSO is running a test.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:01 pm #117689

Steelpoint wrote:I'm going to make a chameleon armour for traitors that has some protection.

Oh boy, armor that costs precious TC to get acceptable levels of resistance instead of being able to swipe some from a locker! Boy oh boy, it fixed EVERYTHING!

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:02 pm #117690

It was Ausops neat suggestion, a cheap invisible armour that offers a little bit of protection.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:55 pm #117695

Holy shit amelius can you please attempt to have a civil conversation rather than blubbering like a child any time a new item for security is suggested jesus christ

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:17 pm #117706

>2 shot stamina stun

Nope.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:24 pm #117708

Tunder wrote:>2 shot stamina stun

Nope.

It's 4 shots with 50% resist.

Can be nerfed down to say 40 stamina a shot for 3 shot stamina stun.

Adrenals counter stamina drain as does stimulants.