Default Lethal Weapons for Security

[Cheimon]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Pistol with 12 brute damage won't be any good if it can't even kill a person with a full clip. That's useless against demons, wizards, constructs, all that (especially if, like we're suggesting, it doesn't have stamina damage).

Riot shotguns full up with slugs seems like by far the best idea so far. Buckshot is pretty crap at range unless you really want to up your friendly fire, whereas slugs actually do enough damage to be worth considering. They're slightly fiddly to use, so not as good as a revolver, and gating it behind code red will mean they're not available immediately.

Making code red more useful will make antags more interested in stealth. It's not going to be called for a few husked bodies, but it will be called if half the station's dead. That sort of thing.

[MisterPerson]

There are a growing number of threats to the station that a basic security officer is simply useless against. Constructs, morphs, demons, mechs, wizards, ninjas, xenomorphs, abductors, certain nuke loadouts, etc are either immune to stuns or easily able to escape them.

The handful of weapons meant to counter these things are in the armory, and are often stolen by the time thr threat is apparent, leaving the people supposedly armed to defend the station trying to beat a mauler to death with a baton.

Would a lethal sidearm for security officers be a terrible idea?

Or you could make fewer of those things stun immune. That sounds way easier to me. Of those, literally only ninjas, abductors, wizards, and MAYBE morphs have any excuse for being stun immune.

[Steelpoint]

Not to mention it takes more effort to call Red Alert considering it requires two heads of staff to swipe for it, meaning you have to get enough of the command staff worried to get it called.

[Tornadium]

Pistol with 12 brute damage won't be any good if it can't even kill a person with a full clip. That's useless against demons, wizards, constructs, all that (especially if, like we're suggesting, it doesn't have stamina damage).

Riot shotguns full up with slugs seems like by far the best idea so far. Buckshot is pretty crap at range unless you really want to up your friendly fire, whereas slugs actually do enough damage to be worth considering. They're slightly fiddly to use, so not as good as a revolver, and gating it behind code red will mean they're not available immediately.

Making code red more useful will make antags more interested in stealth. It's not going to be called for a few husked bodies, but it will be called if half the station's dead. That sort of thing.

Well we already have Riot Shotguns and can order those.

This is more as a default weapon that officers spawn with I believe?

[CPTANT]

A Energy lethal firearm can work if its damage is buffed, but good luck getting that past coder bus. I had to fight tooth and nail just to get the Laser Gun to hold 12 rounds instead of 10.

Don't they currently still hold only 10 shots?

The laser gun is so bad that its only real use versus humans is to finish off people that already got stunned some other way.

If there is one weapon that needs a buff on the station its the laser gun. But good luck getting a PR that addresses balance to be accepted.

[Steelpoint]

Honestly I don't think it would be terrible to buff the Laser Gun to deal 30-35 Damage per round simply due to the many counters to Laser Weapons antags have access to.

[Tornadium]

Honestly I don't think it would be terrible to buff the Laser Gun to deal 30-35 Damage per round simply due to the many counters to Laser Weapons antags have access to.

For most of those antagonists aren't lasers pretty much completely ineffective anyway due to block/reflect?

[Fatal]

Adding default lethals would go a long way into making playing security not utterly horrible

But yeah, they have to projectile based or there is no point

[CPTANT]

Honestly I don't think it would be terrible to buff the Laser Gun to deal 30-35 Damage per round simply due to the many counters to Laser Weapons antags have access to.

I would set damage to 25 and increase the shots they hold to around 14.

[Amelius]

I'm telling you, please don't do a projectile-based STANDARD sidearm. It'd utterly fuck the balance of the game, it'd become unplayable for weeks.

[Steelpoint]

How about this.

Replace the Standard Taser with a unique hybrid Taser/Pistol.

Essentially its a gun that has Disable, Stun and Bullets in a separate magazine. However the bullets can only be used in red alert so under normal circumstances officers will only have access to Stun rounds.

[Wyzack]

I am all for sec having lethals on red alert. The red alert scan would not be so bad if the possible time between card swipes was not so tiny. Maybe raise it to a minute?

[Stickymayhem]

Hell fuck no steelpoint

Shotgun cases still true best solution

[Tornadium]

Hell fuck no steelpoint

Shotgun cases still true best solution

They're unwieldy as fuck, and by the time code red happens and people get recalled at least a few officers are going to have been killed.

If they didn't have to be pumped after every shot, Maybe.

[whodaloo]

I am all for sec having lethals on red alert. The red alert scan would not be so bad if the possible time between card swipes was not so tiny. Maybe raise it to a minute?

I think the idea behind the short timer us so you can't swipe in the caps office and run to the bridge and swipe there
bumping up the time window to like ten seconds wouldn't be bad though


shotguns aren't unwieldy at all dude use hotkeys

[Tornadium]

I am all for sec having lethals on red alert. The red alert scan would not be so bad if the possible time between card swipes was not so tiny. Maybe raise it to a minute?

I think the idea behind the short timer us so you can't swipe in the caps office and run to the bridge and swipe there
bumping up the time window to like ten seconds wouldn't be bad though


shotguns aren't unwieldy at all dude use hotkeys

I do, Half the time I have to key mash for it to pick up on the hotkey. Especially the throw hotkey.

[TheNightingale]

Ah, I see where you're going wrong. You're supposed to point the barrel end at someone and pull the trigger, not throw it at them.

[Tornadium]

Ah, I see where you're going wrong. You're supposed to point the barrel end at someone and pull the trigger, not throw it at them.

Cute, I think it's a known issue though.

Some hotkeys straight up are not reliable.

[Steelpoint]

I just tie a unique hotkey to the spacebar that pumps my shotgun.

[Lumbermancer]

Z is use item in hands with default hotkeys.

[Tornadium]

Z is use item in hands with default hotkeys.

I've tried rebinding it, regardless I have to mash it for it to actually take effect eventually. I don't seem to have this issue with other hotkeys.

[rdght91]

I think it'd be cool to add the combat shotgun thing for one, shotguns are unwieldy for normal security situations so you won't see officers running around with them, just make the weapons with a loyalty pin/tracker added/alarm system locked in a case so that antags still have to breech the armory or at least take a huge, huge risk breaking into department sec for them.

Second, it'd also be cool to add one or two (very large pop rounds) of the security staff to instead spawn as a special response officer (requiring the same time on server as a HOS player) equipped with lethal weaponry and better equipment.

[Jacough]

2. Easily spammable down corridors, no longer can a traitor simply outrun taser shots or be safe offscreen because every officer has a gigantic 'fuck you' pistol.

Not really. You spam the shit out of a disabler or taser down a hallway people just get knocked down or slowed for a moment. Spam the shit out of a lethal gun in a hallway and people get injured or killed and now you're facing a lynching by the crew or possibly a job ban for getting innocent people killed with your stupidity

[Zilenan91]

Hell fuck no steelpoint

Shotgun cases still true best solution

Well no. Giving all of sec access to slightly worse revolvers that nobody but them has any chance of getting access to in a million years would FUCK the balance of the game. It WILL be like macrobomb week except it'll take 5x more time to fix. I can guarantee you 100% that Ops would be almost impossible to win even without any flukes, wizards will get instantly shrekt the second they teleport in, traitors will get btfo'd instantly through a taser shot and subsequent shotgun shots gained through the free cargo access security has via department guard.

But lings. Lings would be FUCKED
Lings HAVE NO RANGED STUN and since EMP screech ONLY DISABLES ENERGY WEAPONS they would pop armblade, pop screech, get stunned, fleshmend, then get instantly shrekt by a shotgun because they literally cannot defend against ballistics. Shotguns would absolutely kill this game, even if to get them the shotguns would require red alert. Sec WILL get violent and WILL cause problems by either flat out attacking heads who don't swipe, or even just intimidating them/demoting them for not swiping. As I said before, the AI would also get absolutely fucking destroyed consistently, all borgs blown, and it carded and wiped because of it objecting to the egregious harm that is shotguns. Use of robocop would skyrocket, as would ahelps against security. Give them stetchkins or energy pistols at the very most.

If they were given stechkins, as I said earlier, many antagonists would NEED to be buffed to accomodate the increased number of ballistic weapons. Lings would need a way to deal with ballistics, wizards might need a bullet buff on their hardsuit but would otherwise be perfectly fine, traitors would need an item that protects against bullets that is relatively cheap, and Ops would also need bullet resistance buffs on their armor and an increased block chance of about 5% on their energy shield.

[PKPenguin321]

Pistol with 12 brute damage won't be any good if it can't even kill a person with a full clip. That's useless against demons, wizards, constructs, all that (especially if, like we're suggesting, it doesn't have stamina damage).

the idea is that there is more than one security officer

[Lumbermancer]

Lings HAVE NO RANGED STUN and since EMP screech ONLY DISABLES ENERGY WEAPONS they would pop armblade, pop screech, get stunned, fleshmend, then get instantly shrekt by a shotgun because they literally cannot defend against ballistics.

It's almost as if Ligs are supposed to use subterfuge to pick fights on their own terms. And somehow removing the shotguns from this equation, which would result in death of ling's target, is balanced.

[Zilenan91]

Lings HAVE NO RANGED STUN and since EMP screech ONLY DISABLES ENERGY WEAPONS they would pop armblade, pop screech, get stunned, fleshmend, then get instantly shrekt by a shotgun because they literally cannot defend against ballistics.

It's almost as if Ligs are supposed to use subterfuge to pick fights on their own terms. And somehow removing the shotguns from this equation, which would result in death of ling's target, is balanced.

I'm... not even sure what you're saying here. Also everything the lings have is tailored around going loud, armblades, bioarmor, fleshmend, engorgeds, and whatever else for utility.

[Luke Cox]

I could get behind the HoS or armory having a single lethal ballistic weapon for emergency situations.

[Tornadium]

What if you can't code red though?

What if Revs control the bridge and you need the lethals?

If anything gets added it should be a sidearm that all officers spawn with rather than gated shit stored in the Armory because that's just as stupid and inconvenience as the current system.

[Lumbermancer]

I'm... not even sure what you're saying here. Also everything the lings have is tailored around going loud, armblades, bioarmor, fleshmend, engorgeds, and whatever else for utility.

Does it matter? You are changling. Literally the Thing. Stealth first, fight is last resort. And recently there has been push for more stealth, since Changelings now transform with clothes, and have stealth and shit.

[whodaloo]

i'd be down for like a week of all the hybrid tasers on box being replaced with m1911s or glocks or something
because i think it'd be fucking funny

[imblyings]

so I spawned m1911s for sec in a previous round. They're essentially 8 shot, reloadable lasers that bypass eshields and eswords but still get rekt by tasers and still get stolen by traitors.

I might do this a few more times.

[lumipharon]

m1911's do like, 20 brute + 50 stam. They're basically detective revolvers without the stun.
They shoot the same bullet as the c20r.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

We should remove the captain's egun, and give him a ballistic handgun instead.

[Tornadium]

I like the idea of M1911s as a default side arm choice.

Perhaps let Security Officers at round start decide which sidearm they want. The taser or the M1911.

[MisterPerson]

What goals would lethal (option?) security have? It seems like the only gain is quicker field executions, which is fine, but frankly there are better ways to do that.

[DemonFiren]

It would also mean secborgs could have a fuckton of fun out there arresting fellow officers.

[imblyings]

M1911s might do too much stamina damage to be fair.

I'm also wondering if sec equipment should be tied to population or round probabilities. If lethals are implemented, maybe they should only be issued in rounds where there is a full selection of roundtypes to choose from.

[Stickymayhem]

Hell fuck no steelpoint

Shotgun cases still true best solution

They're unwieldy as fuck, and by the time code red happens and people get recalled at least a few officers are going to have been killed.

If they didn't have to be pumped after every shot, Maybe.

We aren't trying to prevent security officers ever being killed Jesus fucking christ.

We are throwing in OPTIONS to make the game more interesting.

[Tornadium]

The issue is they are already easy pickings for a single Traitor on his own. The element of surprise in this game > everything.

My point is having this limited to code red puts Sec in an awful position where you have to have the capability to declare code red in order to actually use the weapons required to combat legitimate threats.

[Stickymayhem]

The issue is they are already easy pickings for a single Traitor on his own. The element of surprise in this game > everything.

My point is having this limited to code red puts Sec in an awful position where you have to have the capability to declare code red in order to actually use the weapons required to combat legitimate threats.

Makes plenty of sense to me.

The point of security is that they are well armed, have an organized team and don't have to be subtle. The consequence is their entire team being unwieldy and adhering to what are basically arbitrary rules. This fits in with that perfectly.

[Tornadium]

The issue is they are already easy pickings for a single Traitor on his own. The element of surprise in this game > everything.

My point is having this limited to code red puts Sec in an awful position where you have to have the capability to declare code red in order to actually use the weapons required to combat legitimate threats.

Makes plenty of sense to me.

The point of security is that they are well armed, have an organized team and don't have to be subtle. The consequence is their entire team being unwieldy and adhering to what are basically arbitrary rules. This fits in with that perfectly.

I would disagree, lets take Ops as a case study. Those lethals would be extremely helpful to security, by the time most Ops are even called out they're already attacking and going for the Captain. So not only do you have to organize the code red, you have to assemble officers and actually hand out weapons.

That is an extremely slow process and the response time makes it pretty much useless against a competent team.

How many places can you elevate to code red from? I know you can do it from Sec and from the bridge, are there any other locations? Cause if one gets bombed you're fucked.

[Malkevin]

Theres a keycard swiper in every head's office, as well as one of the bridge.

[Tornadium]

Theres a keycard swiper in every head's office, as well as one of the bridge.

That's not too bad then, However it does require two heads to swipe at the same time am I right?

Meaning for security to be even remotely effective combating any kind of threat where those weapons are needed (see: all of them) you're reliant on non-security personel.

I feel that's kinda shitty with the amount of nerfs they've already gotten and how many buffs antags have.

[Malkevin]

Yes, they need to swipe and they need to swipe at around the same time - so if comms are out, as is standard in most nuke op rounds, thats not going to happen.

[whodaloo]

eh if you can get the cap + a head you can swipe with the cap's office + the bridge swiper pretty easily

i think the real problem is the swiping interface is awful and if you fail the swipe you have to click through it again, it's just ass to use

(also some heads are so unrobust they don't know how to swipe but that's another matter entirely)

[Tornadium]

eh if you can get the cap + a head you can swipe with the cap's office + the bridge swiper pretty easily

i think the real problem is the swiping interface is awful and if you fail the swipe you have to click through it again, it's just ass to use

(also some heads are so unrobust they don't know how to swipe but that's another matter entirely)

That's assuming you can spare the manpower to secure the bridge so you can then go back to the armory.

[whodaloo]

why would you have to pass out the weapons, the idea is that they're in each department so you don't have to cluster in the armory

[Tornadium]

why would you have to pass out the weapons, the idea is that they're in each department so you don't have to cluster in the armory

Well shit they're super vulnerable.

You're practically giving revs/cultists/whatever weapons in the department Sec don't control. It will become meta as soon as code red is triggered for the medbay/science/engineering/cargo checkpoint to be broken into in a flash.

Put them in Security, maybe not Armory but god no to department sec positions.

[whodaloo]

but you wouldn't be able to get them out unless it was a code red aaaaaaaaaaaagh

[Tornadium]

but you wouldn't be able to get them out unless it was a code red aaaaaaaaaaaagh

Read what I said, As soon as Code Red gets dropped the Departments not in Security control are going to get looted.

The idea is to give Security the means to fight back, not nerf them further and give Antagonists free gear.