[Nuke Ops] Option to Play Syndiborg When Purchased

Sweaterkittens · Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:25 am

Exactly what it says on the tin.

It's a shame that you have to be observing to ever have a chance to play Syndicate Cyborg. I propose simply that when you order the Syndicate Cyborg teleporter, you're given the option to inhabit the borg yourself and grab an observer to be an operative, or to simply grab an observer to fill the borg (as it is currently). This shouldn't raise any balance concerns as it doesn't functionally change what you're getting for your TC. It would just allow those who want to or are experienced with silicons to play them instead of just crossing your fingers and getting someone random from the Observers.

I'm not a coder so I don't know what the easiest way to implement this would be - whether the operative you're currently playing disappears and an entirely new one is created for a ghost to occupy, or whether your control is simply transferred from your own body to the cyborgs and a ghost inhabits your old body. Or perhaps some other method. I tried to come up with the most simple means of execution as possible, as this is merely a "quality of life" request for change rather than an actual balance or play style change to Nuke Ops.

Please let me know what your thoughts are and whether this would be simple enough to implement.

whodaloo · Post by **whodaloo** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:24 am #118669

fucking silicon players lmao

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:32 am #118673

Turn the Syndi Borg into a heavy duty power armour that's the same thing but does not make a new Op player.

I think barring extreme high pop that one of the biggest reasons why Ops have such a high win rate from 20 to 50 players is that there's too many Op players. Being able to guy a new team mate really compounds the issue.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:53 am #118688

For best results, buy 3 syndieborgs... And hope they don't all fail
But power armor sounds cool, make it energy armor 100 and all sources 80%.. And have a HUGE slowdown.

Sweaterkittens · Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:58 am

@Steelpoint/Kevinz, that's a good idea, but outside of the scope of what I'm trying to accomplish with this thread. Game balance is a whole separate ball game, I just want a small change that allows you OR a ghost to play the syndiborg. The power armor idea sounds cool, but a balance change to the mechanic itself deserves a its own thread.

duncathan · Post by **duncathan** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:06 am #118692

Steelpoint wrote:Turn the Syndi Borg into a heavy duty power armour that's the same thing but does not make a new Op player.

You mean a mech?

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:44 am #118698

I think Sweater has a good idea in this one. It also ameliorates steelpoint's input about imbalance occurring from being able to add a team member (or two)

DrPillzRedux · Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:44 am

They're supposed to be unbalanced. They're a NUCLEAR MILITARY SQUAD. 8 of them, if you buy borgs, versus the bloodthirsty, valid salad seeking crew that can be up to 70 people.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:47 am #118705

Except the balance is too out of whack.

Under 50 people and the Ops have between a 80% to a 100% victory rate, over 50 people and Ops have under a 20% win rate.

I think its somewhat to do with Sec effectiveness, but really its far more to do with the fact that Op population does not scale. Meaning you get a overabundance of Ops on low pop and very few Ops on high pop.

Generally Ops lose when they run out of ammo, they can only kill so many people before they slip up. Its just that on low pop there's not many bodies to chew through versus high pop.

Incomptinence · Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:11 am

How about an implant that when put in eliminates the explosive implant and when the op dies (or activates it) they gib on the spot and come out as a cyborg. Call it combat nanites as a callback.

Also why don't ops pop scale members anymore? We used to have that dammit. Bring that back or give it a higher population requirement unlike blob which we treat like a live bomb and gate off at increments of 30 ops turns more people into antags reducing the loyalist population.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:00 pm #118735

No to all of these ideas.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:05 pm #118748

I am curious why you think ops scaling to station pop is at all a bad thing.

Incomptinence · Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:34 am

Scott wrote:No to all of these ideas.

My idea as a replacement would at least have the borgs coming out of the op pool instead of coexisting at the same time at the operative.

Not that we need a replacement I can understand if your like being killed I share that view.

Sweaterkittens · Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:07 am

I feel as though this may have gone a little off the rails. Again, this is merely a request to have the option to make Person A = Syndiborg and Person B = Operative instead of the normal Person A = Operative and Person B = Syndiborg. This isn't a change to balance at all, just who is playing what.

For the record, I wholeheartedly agree with having nuke ops scaling, and possibly the idea of syndiborgs swapping out a team member instead of granting you a new one - but a discussion of balance is a long, arduous road that oftentimes ends in nothing happening. I'd just really like to avoid all that and keep this as a simple quality-of-life improvement for Nukeops (and silicon players).

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:35 pm #124693

im not really sure why nobody ever said anything about the auctual op topic but i agree.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:19 pm #124760

The idea for power armor is too good, but syndicate borgs are too essential to not take. Them killing the AI is so huge it's stupid.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:11 am #124893

Zilenan91 wrote:The idea for power armor is too good, but syndicate borgs are too essential to not take. Them killing the AI is so huge it's stupid.

Syndiborgs getting a completely uncounterable kill on the AI is completely retarded and is the main reason syndiborg is so popular.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:19 pm #124918

i dont even see how a team of heavily armed ops can have trouble killing the ai.

A syndieborg should be a heavy weapons platform first a way to control station systems second and a way to kill the ai 4th

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:27 pm #124920

I still think the Syndi Borg should be replaced with a powered combat suit that has to be worn by a Nuke Op, essentially a heavy weapons platform onto itself that's half man/half cyborg.

It would also remove the balance issue of Ops getting another team member, also doing this would greatly discourage sending the power suit off to kill the AI simply because instead of buying a sixth team member to throw off towards the AI now you still have to commit someone, now wearing a expensive piece of equipment, to do the deed.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:19 pm #124947

It's never been "hard" to kill the AI. You could always just bomb the shit out of it and be good, but that requires a ton of investment and leaves the AI a ton of room to scream Ops, whereupon the disk will immediately retreat into the HoS' rectum and never be able to be scraped out by even the highest quality of energy swords.

But yeah I don't give a shit about Ops getting a 6th member. If people removed syndicate borg but still made it so that the Ops had a good way to kill the AI, I'd be all for it.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:29 am #125130

Zilenan91 wrote:It's never been "hard" to kill the AI. You could always just bomb the shit out of it and be good, but that requires a ton of investment and leaves the AI a ton of room to scream Ops, whereupon the disk will immediately retreat into the HoS' rectum and never be able to be scraped out by even the highest quality of energy swords.

But yeah I don't give a shit about Ops getting a 6th member. If people removed syndicate borg but still made it so that the Ops had a good way to kill the AI, I'd be all for it.

Syndicate borgs also get called out half the time. Just hit telecomms right before killing the ai and it will have a lot more trouble calling out in time.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:40 am #125131

Or turn off the APC, maybe.

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:25 pm #125139

There is absolutely no reason to /not/ take the syndieborg if you want the best chance of winning. The meta is stale and boring imo. The advantages are massive. More team members, grenade launchers, emag, lasers, and a near guarenteed AI death along with control of all station doors. At this point I'd rather every nuke op team automatically start with a syndieborg

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:13 pm #125161

maybe just give them a 5 second delay on all interaction with station systems.

Fragnostic · Post by **Fragnostic** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:22 pm #125166

It's still balanced. We have autorifles for any threat security may find themselves against. Just another player that can't be disarmed and we want them removed? Just whip out your SMGs, already do that for any little thing, just light them up. Go ahead and spray away, you'll kill something eventually, you have plenty of ammo and space to store it. Also have nice little armor vest AND helmet that oddly enough counters against bullets specifically, which are the bread and butter of Nuke Ops, a highly trained military nuclear strike team. It's a good thing the playing field is even now, with giving such a large arsenel of weapons to what is essentially a bunch of mallcops who have gear for any fathomable situation. Did I mention a horde of toolbox-toting pawns wearing grey jumpsuits at their waist, charging at any threat without fear of dying and can take them all out with a simple disarm?

Syndiborgs, just 1 extra player, and we are upset that they can be robust and useful sometimes?

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:33 pm #125167

Fragnostic wrote:It's still balanced. We have autorifles for any threat security may find themselves against. Just another player that can't be disarmed and we want them removed? Just whip out your SMGs, already do that for any little thing, just light them up. Go ahead and spray away, you'll kill something eventually, you have plenty of ammo and space to store it. Also have nice little armor vest AND helmet that oddly enough counters against bullets specifically, which are the bread and butter of Nuke Ops, a highly trained military nuclear strike team. It's a good thing the playing field is even now, with giving such a large arsenel of weapons to what is essentially a bunch of mallcops who have gear for any fathomable situation. Did I mention a horde of toolbox-toting pawns wearing grey jumpsuits at their waist, charging at any threat without fear of dying and can take them all out with a simple disarm?

Syndiborgs, just 1 extra player, and we are upset that they can be robust and useful sometimes?

Armory no longer has autorifles and bulletproof armour covers a maximum of 1/3 of the body and the helmet provides only half the protection that the vest does (if that hasnt been buffed again).

Anyway the complaint about Syndiborgs is that it is a no-brainer to take one. It is just WAY better than anything else you can buy, making nuke ops playstyles boring. Would be nice to sometimes see something....you know...OTHER than ops taking a syndiborg.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:47 pm #125170

Fragnostic I think your a fucking retard and a moron, considering your spouting not only out of date but factually incorrect information.

Of course my hostile introduction will result in you posting a just as hostile response most likely, if at all.

Firstly the Auto Rifles were removed from the armoury, though you may have missed that due to the frothing around your mouth obscuring your vision.

Secondly the rifles deal less damage to Ops than Lasers (10 to 14) and I had removed the excess magazines from the armoury prior to their removal, meaning you only had the mag in your gun to fire before you ran out of ammo. In addition more ammo cost around 30 to 40 points from cargo AND more mags from RnD were very expensive AND you could not get compatiable ammo from a hacked auto lathe due to the ammo being of a different kind (not 9mm).

Furthermore bulletproof armour was removed as well, but is being readded, again something you may have failed to notice during your rant.

Finally Nuke Op win rates are at a solid 51% win rate on all (read all(barring the three rounds with more than 80 people) population levels around the same time my auto rifle PR was merged. While I will not state my rifle PR did that by itself I will say that Nuke Ops are neither losing nor winning too much in any capacity currently, which is better than the pre-rifle 80% win rate.

In conclusion, get your information straight before you spout shit.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:51 pm #125171

well stealth ops dont take them but fuck stealth ops.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:55 pm #125172

I should note in advance, and being off topic, that the 9mm and similar changes would come up in a subsequent change which I still do intent to push since the Rifles are still in the game but are cargo only.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:17 pm #125177

Steelpoint wrote: Firstly the Auto Rifles were removed from the armoury, though you may have missed that due to the frothing around your mouth obscuring your vision.

well to be fair i dident notice either because i got so sick of watching the armory being slowly ruined i stoped playing warden and following the prs.

Also jesus fuck he dident even say anything that bad whats got you so shitty

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:19 pm #125178

I am annoyed because he's spouting misinformation about the Rifles and I'm tired of going over the rifles over and over again on how they truly function.

I swear people intentionally try and spread misinformation about the rifles just to get more people to dislike them.

But again I'm going off topic.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:55 am #125332

you really just need to accept people were against the rifles even i who liked the idea hated what they did to the armory.

But it doesent matter because the rifles are not what his post was really about.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:19 am #125336

Some people were.

But here's the big shocker! Just as many people liked the rifles!

Which I proved with the in game poll that attracted over 120 votes.

Fragnostic · Post by **Fragnostic** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:08 am #125343

Steelpoint, you mindless fuckwit, shut the fuck up.
You really think I care about Syndiborgs at all?
God of course you would, you failed fucking abortion. Look at you, you invest so much time and effort to enhance your playing experience and others as well and it all goes in the fucking bin. And you know what I do? Faff around in the forums and OOC and talk shit about your pro-sec PRs until they get nerfed or reverted. All because of people like me making little splashes that will eventually garner enough attention and cause kneejerk changes in policy. Didn't have to learn to code, didn't have to do anything hard or complicated, just clack away on my keyboard and kick over your sandcastle. Shit is so cash. I didn't even know it was reverted until now. Thanks for the heads up, Steelshit. Glad to know you shat your plus-sized gym shorts over my work. I'll see you next time you try contributing. Funny enough, I actually sorta liked autorifles, it was sort of a buff to antags, too. But fuck hard-counters to specific antags and fuck your sec buffs and fuck you.

Syndiborgs are underpowered as they are, with a pseudo-LMG, and the same weaknesses as borgs, while lacking the self-termination option that Nuke Ops have. Why can't they blow themselves? No explosive implants? After being disabled, they become the station's weapon.

TechnoAlchemist · Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:12 am

Haha god this is emotionally charged

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:26 am #125345

>syndiborgs are underpowered

The mad is blinding his eyes

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:33 am #125348

look out everybody we got a badass over here

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:39 am #125350

Auto Rifles were my only really reverted change, but I digress.

Also if you really think Syndi Borgs are underpowered then you really are crazy.

Fragnostic · Post by **Fragnostic** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:49 am #125352

Steelpoint wrote:Auto Rifles were my only really reverted change

More work, eh? Sounds like a job for Fragnostic the Vocal Minority!

Zilenan91 wrote:look out everybody we got a badass over here

nuuu I'm a good boy, I swear. He wanted a hostile response, I gave him one.

Wyzack wrote:The mad is blinding his eyes

le ebik buttrage maymay xDDD

fugg
go shove a detectives revolver up your ass as soon as ERP is allowed, my god you love sec and detective

Section dedicated to keeping post relevant and on-topic:
Syndiborgs face the same problem Nuke Ops face with their guns. Lose them and they can be used against them. All that is cool, but a flash and/or ion rifle and hat thing is hunting ops.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:54 am #125353

If you've got to a point where the crew can reliably cart a Syndi borg off to Robotics to be converted then odds are the Ops have either already set up the bomb or are all dead.

A Syndi Borg is not, and should not, be a one man army. Since a simple flash, flashbang or ion rounds will ruin its day.

Edit: Also Auto Rifles are likely my most, or second most, controversial addition to the game. The other being the HoS Laser, but at that point people realised it was still a weaker varient to the older energy guns the HoS started with.

Fragnostic · Post by **Fragnostic** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:48 am #125393

Steelpoint wrote:The other being the HoS Laser

Buuut boss, I'm backed up as it is! God, I'm flooded in work! Do you have any idea how much effort and risk I have to go through? A lot of resources I have to invest, y'know.

And that's implying that always happens, as far as when a Syndiborg is repurposed, that the threat is over. You're suggesting it's a given, as if it were a part of them gamemode as opposed to a possibility.

TheNightingale · Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:27 am

Fragnostic wrote:Why can't they blow themselves?

They're cyborgs, they can't bend down like that.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:13 pm #125438

im pretty sure when he said syndiborgs were underpowered he meant in combat not in ai killing i dont really have enough expirence with them to coment on that i have never been in a nuke ops team with one i tend to be on the other side of the station when ops arrive and the only time i have ever been one was when i got staff of changed into one and that was at round end.

DaemonBomb · Post by **DaemonBomb** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:34 pm #125443

Holy shit this is some youtube comment level discourse.
Not even singulo gets this cancerous.
Fragnostic, I see what you're doing with your flippant 90s 'tude. Your whole "Well, I know I'm shitposting and I'm admitting to it so I'm not being a shitposter, I'm just being clever!" thing... It's just not as endearing as you think it is.

And don't say you aren't trying to be endearing. I know what you want.

You want to be a meme. You want to be the "Bryce Pax" of the forums. The guy who everyone loves because, despite his hostile and griffy disposition, they're too clever and funny to discount.
But you aint no Bryce, and you aint endearing.

Typing your shit like you think you're eloquent, like this is a movie, like we're in the climax and what you say is gonna break the enemy's spirit and make you win.

Even oranges can act like an adult sometimes.

EDIT: Oh, on topic, I don't see how a change like this could really be an issue, it's not like it changes mechanics or anything, and I doubt that we'd have issues with only having competent syndiborgs. People tend to overestimate their own competence.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:52 pm #125450

More like demontruthbomb amirite

Fragnostic · Post by **Fragnostic** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:28 pm #125511

DaemonBomb wrote:I didn't read the previous replies, I have no idea what you're doing, I wish Id said this before for effect and to this very moment am hoping for no reply at all

lol you're going in now because you think/fear that I'll become whatever the fuck you're going on about. Even I have no fucking clue what you're saying, maybe I have a thick goddamned skull and am genuinely retarded.But you're looking in way too deep for whatever intrinsic value you want to draw from this. You cold accomplish a "cease-fire of stupidity", if you will, with a simple "stop this shitposting Frag it's not funny". If you're claiming that I want to be a goddamned meme with buzzwords, at least don't aim to do the same thing. Fucking faggot, you thought I didn't see that #truthbomb rant format? That shit is so boiler plate, and trust me, I know. SAG and CA, all in one paragraph, if that shit doesn't mean anything to you, then miss me with a reply.

Back on topic, syndiborgs face the same nerf bulldog shotguns have. Their operative-specific pin can be extracted and replaced with a firing pin and used against the ops.

TheNightingale wrote:They're cyborgs, they can't bend down like that.

sick fuck, stop reminding them of their limitations. What does that have anything to do with blow-...Ohhhhh. Lewd.

Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:24 pm

i present to you: an image of this thread, made in ms paint by the one and only me

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:39 pm #125576

I'll put it up on the fridge.

onleavedontatme · Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:45 pm

It's fucking weird that this thread is still open given how touchy the forum mods usually are.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:55 pm #125582

Should we just report fragnostic at this point