Buffing The Laser Rifle

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:26 am #120073

My proposal here is to buff the Laser Rifle in some capacity to be more competitive to take over a Energy Gun, as well as offer a little more bang for your back to the Auto Rifle.

While there are many ways to buff the Laser Rifle, my initial proposal is to buff the Laser Rifle to hold 16 or 20 rounds.

Currently the Laser Rifle holds 12 rounds and deals 20 burn damage per laser round.

Also this buff would only target the Laser Rifle, the Energy Gun, Captain's Antique Laser and the Head of Security's Laser would not have their ammo nor damage touched, unless people specifically want that.

What do you think is a good buff? Vote as well for a general opinion.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:34 am #120074

Just make it do 25

Here's the catch regarding the laser: It already tears up blobs like a motherfucker, but it's pretty paltry against current ling armor + nuke armor. It's a weird tradeoff - One must suffer so another may prosper.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:37 am #120076

Ops get about 40 laser defence, ling armour has about 70 laser defence (last time I checked).

Last time I checked the basic blob bits had about 21 health, but they have some inbuilt defence so it takes a few laser shots to kill the blob bits.

Its all a balancing act.

Spoiler:

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:41 am #120079

>60 damager laser
Welcome to Baystation12!

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:42 am #120080

That's why I think buffing the ammo might be better than buffing the damage, increasing damage might make things a big iffy but ammo is easier to take into account and still gives a good reason to use a laser rifle over a egun.

DemonFiren wrote:>60 damager laser
Welcome to Baystation12!

No I'm basing that shitty suggestion off of Goonstation, their default lasers deal 75 damage per round. But their armour offers great protection against ranged attacks (unless someone is using AP ammo, then your fucked).

onleavedontatme · Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:45 am

Scones wrote:Just make it do 25

Here's the catch regarding the laser: It already tears up blobs like a motherfucker, but it's pretty paltry against current ling armor + nuke armor. It's a weird tradeoff - One must suffer so another may prosper.

This is why I nerfed armor instead of buffing weapons. You can't buff shit like lasers unless you want 4 shot crits against unarmored crew. It already crits people before they can scream if you tase/laser them.

However with all the laser resist antags have (reflect, high armour against it) it's poor against them.

onleavedontatme · Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:46 am

Kor wrote:
Scones wrote:Just make it do 25

Here's the catch regarding the laser: It already tears up blobs like a motherfucker, but it's pretty paltry against current ling armor + nuke armor. It's a weird tradeoff - One must suffer so another may prosper.
This is why I nerfed armor instead of buffing weapons. You can't buff shit like lasers unless you want 4 shot crits against unarmored crew. It already crits people before they can scream if you tase/laser them.

However with all the laser resist antags have (reflect, high armour against it) it's poor against them.

Anyway, do lasers really need to be buffed now? I understand the autorifle has rendered them obsolete for the most part, but you should either have buffed lasers or autorifles, not both, or else you're gonna have effectively 7 autorifles in the armory.

Steelpoint wrote: I could just buff the laser to deal 60 damage but increase all armour to have about 60 to 70 laser defence. So against unarmoured people its very lethal but against security/captain/antagonists the shots only deal 24ish damage per round. Ehhhhhhhhhh

I don't even know what to say about this.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:47 am #120083

Yeah I don't see why you'd want to specifically change the armory ones but not the others when we just got the rifles to help with those laser-resistant targets

Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:50 am

DemonFiren wrote:>60 damager laser
Welcome to Baystation12!

This is shitposting. Cut it out. Give some sort of reasoning to back up your points.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:52 am #120087

What do you mean by that Scones?

Also the 60 damage suggestion was just off the cuff, I don't intend to bloody make lasers deal 60 damage, not with how our crit and armour system works. It works on goon due to their players being much harder to kill (health wise, their crit is more soft cap) and that their armour is more unique than ours.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:58 am #120089

I mean why buff armory equipment when we just got NEW stuff that was supposed to override the weak points of said equipment

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:00 am #120090

I just want to make sure that the difference between a Laser and a Rifle is not in that the Rifle is 100% better than the laser in all circumstances.

Ideally the only time the Rifle is better than the Laser should be against Nuke Ops using shields, and vice versa Lasers being deadly against the Blob and Aliens.

EDIT: By that I mean a case where people think why take a X over Y. The guns themselves have their own advantages and disadvantages that help lend themselves better in some minor ways in certain situations but you should only get cases of needing to absolutely take X over Y when facing a very specific enemy/antagonist.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:49 am #120092

Steelpoint wrote:I just want to make sure that the difference between a Laser and a Rifle is not in that the Rifle is 100% better than the laser in all circumstances.

Ideally the only time the Rifle is better than the Laser should be against Nuke Ops using shields, and vice versa Lasers being deadly against the Blob and Aliens.

EDIT: By that I mean a case where people think why take a X over Y. The guns themselves have their own advantages and disadvantages that help lend themselves better in some minor ways in certain situations but you should only get cases of needing to absolutely take X over Y when facing a very specific enemy/antagonist.

That's what we call power creep. See: SABR.

Laser should have high capacity though - not more damage. Being able to crit someone with less hits is a significant change.

Incomptinence · Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:51 am

But buffing laser rifle is forbidden!

lumipharon wrote: That's what we call power creep. See: SABR.

Laser should have high capacity though - not more damage. Being able to crit someone with less hits is a significant change.

We should be less afraid of power creep with open source development we can just change the power creep back with no cut off point like most commercial titles.

Now where power creep really does fester is traditional games like card games, mtg will always need to tip toe around artifacts because of blocks like urza and mirrodin totally broke the synergy of them, but then hey you could always start with broken shit like moxen.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:21 am #120098

Also I should mention that if people overwhelming dislike the auto rifle PR its likely I won't go ahead with any laser rifle buff, if anything at all.

Also if you are voting for a ammo or damage increase please state what you think would be a good value.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:54 am #120100

Incomptinence wrote:But buffing laser rifle is forbidden!

We should be less afraid of power creep with open source development we can just change the power creep back with no cut off point like most commercial titles.

Now where power creep really does fester is traditional games like card games, mtg will always need to tip toe around artifacts because of blocks like urza and mirrodin totally broke the synergy of them, but then hey you could always start with broken shit like moxen.

If /tg/ coding has shown me anything, it's how unpopular changes can stay indefinitely in the code.

Incomptinence · Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:27 am

Some of those unpopular changes eventually get slowly eaten away once their protective parent eventually bores and leaves them behind. I like to hope.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:29 am #120103

I've proven difficult to bore away, the only reason I dropped the armour value issue was when I was banned from Github.

onleavedontatme · Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:43 am

Wouldn't really say dropped since you're inching armour back up in response to complaints that your guns are too strong and suggested (jokingly?) massively buffing laser damage and armor against laser. An arms race against yourself or something.

Speaking of arms races, I feel like this whole thing is spiralling out of control. Sec had a problem against reflect mobs (juggernauts/eshields) and instead of addressing those individually we now have autorifles, buffed sabrs, buffed armor, proposed lasergun buffs, proposed armor buffs for the proposed laser buffs, a remapped armory, proposed juggernaut buffs, proposed blob buffs for the proposed laser buffs, several antag types that have serious issues dealing with autorifles, and so on and so forth. You're creating a massive amount of work for yourself.

It doesn't make any sense to rip up years of balance and meta around sec having X weapons that do X damage because of a couple of outliers or to justify autorifles at their current power level. It's just going to be a cascade of balance issues the more you poke at it. I'd rather have auto-rifles stay as is and lasers feel lacklustre than continue further down this path honestly.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Kor wrote:Wouldn't really say dropped since you're inching armour back up in response to complaints that your guns are too strong and suggested (jokingly?) massively buffing laser damage and armor against laser. An arms race against yourself or something.

Speaking of arms races, I feel like this whole thing is spiralling out of control. Sec had a problem against reflect mobs (juggernauts/eshields) and instead of addressing those individually we now have autorifles, buffed sabrs, buffed armor, proposed lasergun buffs, proposed armor buffs for the proposed laser buffs, a remapped armory, proposed juggernaut buffs, proposed blob buffs for the proposed laser buffs, several antag types that have serious issues dealing with autorifles, and so on and so forth. You're creating a massive amount of work for yourself.

It doesn't make any sense to rip up years of balance and meta around sec having X weapons that do X damage because of a couple of outliers or to justify autorifles at their current power level. It's just going to be a cascade of balance issues the more you poke at it. I'd rather have auto-rifles stay as is and lasers feel lacklustre than continue further down this path honestly.

Or have no autorifles atall and buff lasers because we're playing a goofy space game

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:29 am #120117

I've already explained that the ballistic rifles are meant to shore up for the area's that lasers and other energy weapons lack in.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:37 am #120119

I would buff the whole laser family to 25 damage and increase shots to 16. Also increase the amount of charges the laser cannon has by a bit.

It would be one more alternative to the endless stun and cuff we see now.

A taser will STILL be scarier than a laser rifle after this, but a least the laser rifle wouldn't shoot wet farts anymore.

This makes acquiring weapons a more valid options and makes it more desirable to obtain them both for security and antags.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Steelpoint wrote:I've already explained that the ballistic rifles are meant to shore up for the area's that lasers and other energy weapons lack in.

But the areas that e-weapons lack in have been carefully (or at least, piecemeal) designed and balanced around the idea that that's what security have. It's like saying "People can thermite walls to get into important places, so important places all now have a thermite-proof layer on the walls"

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:11 pm #120128

Except as I explained the "balancing" got to the point where every single piece of sec equipment, barring the stun baton, was worthless against certain antagonists.

The Auto Rifle shores up this by giving security some flexibility in doing this, but not in a way to utterly make these defences irrelevant.

Despite some belief Officers don't carry around Auto Rifles as standard issue, and it takes time to issue the rifles out.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:32 pm #120134

>got to the point

Nuke ops have been immune to flashbangs since the original stun changes.
They've had access to e-shields since before I started playing.

Traitors only have the sword, which they've again, had access to since like, forever. They have a worse then 50/50 chance against melee stuns, can get disarmed, flashed, flashbanged, peppersprayed etc.

Juggernauts are SLOW FUCKS. Reflect lets them slow down plebs who eat reflected shots instead of dodging, and still aren't a threat unless you get cornered, or there is a bunch of them.
The only issue with (or was, dunno) juggs in the minimum damage req to hurt it, meaning regular crew literally can't do shit.
But before that, you could just dunk them with floor tiles.

So how has the server dealt with these threats for literally years without issue?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:38 pm #120137

Changes to game play take a long time to actually become more widely adopted by players.

Energy Swords as a issue don't really have as much relevane since most traitors don't waste their few TC's on what is essentially a gimmick weapon.

The Energy Shield on the other hand has become way more prevalent for Nuke Ops, maybe its a issue that no one in the past has ever really wanted to bring up.

Normally I would be willing to let it slide under the whole 'fluke ops gonna fluke' but when you have hard statistics and game play testimonies which show as clear as day that Ops painfully win 70% to 100% of sub-50 player rounds while they only win less than 20% of rounds past 50 people that there's a clear problem that is not just fluke ops.

I mean hell, I just watched a Op round where the Operatives were the very definition of the word fluke, yet somehow they managed to storm the brig, kill the Captain and get the disk. Sure three of them were too dumb to live and failed to get back to the shuttle in time to evac but I digress.

The issue with Ops is multi pronged, you have bad operatives, a lack or over-abundance of station personal and the station's (read: security's) inability to deal with operatives outside of human wave attacks or fluke ops.

Not-Dorsidarf · Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:42 pm

I dont think you can bring up the "On lowpop they steamroll the crew and on highpop the crew steamrollers them" as reasoning to give the crew a FUCK YOUR 18TC EXPENDITURE IVE GOT A FREE CR20 set of guns.
Unless you think the problem is that it's inconsistant that sometimes the win and sometimes they lose.

onleavedontatme · Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:03 pm

Steelpoint wrote:I've already explained that the ballistic rifles are meant to shore up for the area's that lasers and other energy weapons lack in.

I understand that.

The tl;dr of what I said was that it makes more sense to nerf e-shields than to go the route you're going right now.

duncathan · Post by **duncathan** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:56 pm #120200

The real problem with nuke ops is that whether they win is consistent.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:47 pm #120205

More ops are brought down by banana peels than laser fire anyway.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:35 pm #120255

You keep citing nuke ops POPULATION BASED WIN RATES as evidence for why e-shield are OP pls nerf.

Does this not strike you as completely and utterly insane, not to mention utterly irrelevent?

Lumbermancer · Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:06 pm

Buffing damage doesn't seem very fun.

How about make it use power pack magazines, that you can swap, and recharge. Recharge not only in charger (perhaps the battery charger not the weapon charger, to not make it op), but also by just putting it out in sunlight (albeit it would be slow). Imperial Lasgun style.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:09 pm #120264

lol

that is all

onleavedontatme · Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:29 pm

Lumbermancer wrote:Buffing damage doesn't seem very fun.

How about make it use power pack magazines, that you can swap, and recharge. Recharge not only in charger (perhaps the battery charger not the weapon charger, to not make it op), but also by just putting it out in sunlight (albeit it would be slow). Imperial Lasgun style.

I've already coded rechargeable magazines, just trying to sort out a weird bug them leaving bullet casings behind (despite being a caseless bullet type?) and making some ugly coder sprites and they'll be ready for a PR.

Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:37 pm

Steelpoint wrote:Ops get about 40 laser defence, ling armour has about 70 laser defence (last time I checked).

Last time I checked the basic blob bits had about 21 health, but they have some inbuilt defence so it takes a few laser shots to kill the blob bits.

Its all a balancing act.

Spoiler:
I could just buff the laser to deal 60 damage but increase all armour to have about 60 to 70 laser defence. So against unarmoured people its very lethal but against security/captain/antagonists the shots only deal 24ish damage per round. Ehhhhhhhhhh

ohoho this is the worst idea i've ever heard
i know we want to make the game more lethal but god damn dude

Lumbermancer · Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:05 am

Kor wrote:I've already coded rechargeable magazines, just trying to sort out a weird bug them leaving bullet casings behind (despite being a caseless bullet type?) and making some ugly coder sprites and they'll be ready for a PR.

Cool cool. I'm of an opinion that variety and uniqueness is better than simply difference on power scale.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:44 am #120616

Well if Kor is able to set up a system allowing just Laser Rifles to be reloadable then I don't see a reason to rush in a buff PR.

Post by **Cobby** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:27 pm #120678

I'm not seeing how we justify the guns in the firstplace. Unlike Tatortots where you have to choose via TC how you play [which usually has HARD counters], a sec officer can have both a rifle and a laser meme and now they're just powerplayers all around. Ballistics, as of now, have no hard counters [because they were never meant to be given straight off the bat in troves at roundstart].

Weren't you an advocate for giving conflict to Traitor rounds? How do you justify these guns [and then buffing ALL OF THESE GUNS] when Traitors can no longer spend TC on FUN because they're too busy trying to counter sec-play [which they can't because bullets unfortunately don't just explode in their magazine when you EMP it]. People are just going to avoid sec altogether which takes the entire fun out of sec.

I'm astounded that despite very clear negative feedback, especially given that the author had an issue with someone else who refused to listen to public opinion and merged X anyways, this gun pull and all things related to it have stayed as long as they have [although this is similar with other pulls]. It's a HUGE BUFF TO SEC, "countered" with even LARGER BUFFS to Sec, and is clearly pulling the balance towards the Reds. I tried not to fall for the singuloth meme of "Oh Steelpoint buffing sec again" but this whole thing is one big megabuff to Sec that no one wants to admit.

Playing nerf roulette with any item that is a gun and/or blocks guns is a really odd way of saying "revert".

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:39 am #120867

Let traitors buy armor with no slowdown that's camofladged.
Normally I'd ask admins for this but no one seems to want to do :'[

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:50 am #120870

If the justification for buffing every bloody weapon sec has access to is 'we'll let one type of antag buy armour', you're seriously doing it wrong.
A: Not all antags have access to armour
B: Not all antags that HAVE access to armour want or can afford it.

And then we get the other thread where justifying armour buffs is adding AP ammo...

I mean seriously, what the fuck is this if not powercreep?

onleavedontatme · Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:55 am

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/11978

Start of the PR is up

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:39 am #120897

lumipharon wrote:If the justification for buffing every bloody weapon sec has access to is 'we'll let one type of antag buy armour', you're seriously doing it wrong.
A: Not all antags have access to armour
B: Not all antags that HAVE access to armour want or can afford it.

And then we get the other thread where justifying armour buffs is adding AP ammo...

I mean seriously, what the fuck is this if not powercreep?

Not every buff is power creep. A banana peel is probably more menacing than a laser gun currently.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

CPTANT wrote:
lumipharon wrote:If the justification for buffing every bloody weapon sec has access to is 'we'll let one type of antag buy armour', you're seriously doing it wrong.
A: Not all antags have access to armour
B: Not all antags that HAVE access to armour want or can afford it.

And then we get the other thread where justifying armour buffs is adding AP ammo...

I mean seriously, what the fuck is this if not powercreep?
Not every buff is power creep. A banana peel is probably more menacing than a laser gun currently.

And it still will be, pretty much

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:54 pm #120918

I'd take a screwdriver over a laser rifle right now.

Not-Dorsidarf · Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:04 pm

Tornadium wrote:I'd take a screwdriver over a laser rifle right now.

Sure, I'll take the laser rifle and kill you in five shots from range while you try and spazz close enough to a moving target to get the four stabs needed to eyestab stun.

Oh wait anyone who has a laser rifle or equivalent also has sunglasses so your 7 brute weapon is pointless.

Oh, wait, that was just the usual retarded tornadium hyperbole.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:06 pm #120932

He has a point, our current laser weapons are some of the worst ranged weapons in the game, barring super heat vulnerable foes like xenos. And against them the mass producable flamethrowers are better

Ricotez · Post by **Ricotez** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:29 pm #120936

The trade-off with laser guns is that they can be recharged at any weapon charger, while ballistic guns need new ammo clips. Yes I know you can recycle a lot of ammo at an autolathe, but it's still more involved than just plopping the gun into a charger until it blinks yellow.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:08 pm #120949

Ricotez wrote:The trade-off with laser guns is that they can be recharged at any weapon charger, while ballistic guns need new ammo clips. Yes I know you can recycle a lot of ammo at an autolathe, but it's still more involved than just plopping the gun into a charger until it blinks yellow.

Ammo clips is an advantage, not a disadvantage. If I get an smg I just print 10 magazines put them in a box and never worry about running out again. Stetchkin ammo is also dirt cheap. The only weapon for which ammo is an issue is the revolver. With lasers I have to either carry around a shitton of guns or get back to a recharger with power and wait for ages for it to recharge.

How should the Laser Rifle be buffed, if at all?