merge roboticist and scientist: discussion edition

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:39 am #120574

now with less bias in the OP, and less retarded memes by me about polls and shit since I want you nerds talking about this new epic meme

discuss:

reasons for:
scientists and roboticists use the same system of R&D
they already beat down eachothers windows at roundstart anyways so they can get in and out of the lab
RDs frequently assign robotics/r&d access to their scientists/roboticists roundstart
if the RD doesnt do it the HoP usually does

pros:
scientists dont have to beat down robotics tinted window(which is the only tinted window btw) to do their research
science can get done more efficiently and with less door manuvering/roundstart window deconstruction

cons:
less interdepartmental interaction and roleplay between the players

tedward1337 · Post by **tedward1337** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:42 am #120575

The only issue i'm seeing is possibly a traitor robo. If science was merged, you'd have more eyes watching when trying to make that sneaky cyborg army.

AnonymousNow · Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:50 am

It'll be another subdepartment for research staff to fight over, and then suddenly traitor roboticist dynamics have to change fundamentally.

That dividing line between the subdepartments also leads to a more interesting dynamic with outsiders... "blame the researchers, I've been nagging them to sync and now they're making guns"... etc.

EDIT: Also, seeing a poll landslide against a suggestion and then restarting the thread whilst dismissing the previous result as "memes" is (a term).

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:54 am #120581

1: Because you can use the same logic for basically every job

>why aren't chemist, MD, geneticists all one job
>why aren't all of service one job
etc etc

2: You seem to be specifically talking about R&D and robotics, ignoring the rest of the department that is part of the science job.
Robotics already have free access to R&D since it has no access requirements and doesn't even have a fucking airlock, unlike literally every other job in the game.

So the only thing this really changes is scientists being able to enter robotics, which should only be needed if there are no roboticists, which usually entails lowpop, which already gives scientists robotics access (and vice versa).
Also it takes like, 5 seconds with tools to just open up the robotics window if you really want.

Also
>locking the thread because the poll goes against you

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:04 am #120584

No. "Scientist" is too broad of a job as it is. Robotics is to science as Atmos Techs are to engineering.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:11 am #120586

lumipharon wrote:>locking the thread because the poll goes against you

AnonymousNow wrote:EDIT: Also, seeing a poll landslide against a suggestion and then restarting the thread whilst dismissing the previous result as "memes" is (a term).

it didnt land slide because of the suggestion, it landslided because I posted retarded shit and the OP was bias as fuck

AnonymousNow wrote:It'll be another subdepartment for research staff to fight over, and then suddenly traitor roboticist dynamics have to change fundamentally.

I play R&D a shitton. People never end up fighting over subdepartments because R&D is the only subdepartment that isn't capable of supporting more than 3 people working in there at a time. Robotics can support 2-3 people working in it. It'll be fine.

AnonymousNow wrote:That dividing line between the subdepartments also leads to a more interesting dynamic with outsiders... "blame the researchers, I've been nagging them to sync and now they're making guns"... etc.

I don't see why "players are being fucking idiots and not syncing the research when all they gotta do is hit 1 button" is a fun gameplay and roleplay aspect. You could still do this with scientist robos, "blame the other scientists, they said they were gonna do R&D but then they all fucked off to xenobio, and I dont know how to do R&D".

tedward1337 wrote:The only issue i'm seeing is possibly a traitor robo. If science was merged, you'd have more eyes watching when trying to make that sneaky cyborg army.

that can be looked into

lumipharon wrote:1: Because you can use the same logic for basically every job

>why aren't chemist, MD, geneticists all one job
>why aren't all of service one job
etc etc

This begs the question of "why are these jobs distinct anyways".

>why aren't chemist, MD, geneticists all one job

Why aren't these just all rolled into MD? If size is an issue, there's plenty of room to make it so each workroom can hold and operate 2-3 people. If "everyone will just go do genetics/chemistry/viro" is a problem, then maybe we should consider why the other jobs aren't as fun to do as the chosen "everyone will end up doing X" job.

>why aren't all of service one job

This is a big one.
The only reason people really play bartender is because it's an assistant with a roundstart shotgun and body armor.
And before you say "they mix drinks too" they mix drinks too for the first 10 minutes and then fuck off to go do whatever with the roundstart shotgun and body armor.
Drinking literally gives you no benefit in the game. None at all. Being well fed actually gives you some bonuses if you ate good chef food, certain botany plants have nice chemicals in them that can make you buff and tuff and help you beat shit up for that sweet greentext.
For every bartender that actually stays in the bar, there's 10 more that take the job just for the roundstart gun and armor.

And once again, if there's a problem of "everyone will just do X job", we should once again look at why the other jobs arent as fun as that job.

lumipharon wrote:2: You seem to be specifically talking about R&D and robotics, ignoring the rest of the department that is part of the science job.
Robotics already have free access to R&D since it has no access requirements and doesn't even have a fucking airlock, unlike literally every other job in the game.

They had the airlock removed because of this exact issue where science and robotics run on the same system but don't have access to eachothers tools. We could just merge robo and scientist and re-add the airlock.

lumipharon wrote:So the only thing this really changes is scientists being able to enter robotics, which should only be needed if there are no roboticists, which usually entails lowpop, which already gives scientists robotics access (and vice versa).

Except that high-pop, as I stated before, the scientists and roboticists get themselves given access to the other's department ASAP.

lumipharon wrote:Also it takes like, 5 seconds with tools to just open up the robotics window if you really want.

which gets done every round because it's the efficient meta, so why should it be a requirement

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:12 am #120587

Luke Cox wrote:No. "Scientist" is too broad of a job as it is. Robotics is to science as Atmos Techs are to engineering.

Why are atmos techs and engineers separate, too?
Atmos techs have no responsibilities as-is, or any bonus access or tools an engineer cant already get. There's not anything for them to set up otherwise bad things happen, eg. singularity not being set up = no power. It's literally a "heres some shit, do whatever you want". Why shouldn't it just be merged into engineer?

DaemonBomb · Post by **DaemonBomb** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:19 am #120589

Robotics has the coolest jumpsuit. Fact.
Also, if they were merged we'd have a single job that:
Makes weapons
Makes bombs
Makes borgs
Makes mechs
Makes laser proof monsters
Makes weird slime chems
Makes upgrades
Can quite easily build an upload console and has easy access to every module if the Miners are doing their job
Has easy access to plasma, N2O, CO2, and Oxygen canisters
Biosuits, Radsuits, Bombsuits,
and much, much more.

We don't have any other departments set up like this. If we merge Roboticists and Scientists then we oughta merge
Bartenders, Chefs, and Botanists,
Engineers and Atmos Techs,
Detective and Sec Officers,
Chemists and Doctors,
ect.

I say instead of removing roboticists we give them more shit so they're more unique. Maybe add more augments or make robots more customizable or let them make drivable things in the vein of the sec-ways and janicart.

The only reason people really play bartender is because it's an assistant with a roundstart shotgun and body armor.
And before you say "they mix drinks too" they mix drinks too for the first 10 minutes and then fuck off to go do whatever with the roundstart shotgun and body armor.

The clown doesn't actually do anything to help the station. They're just assistants with a roundstart slipper. We oughta remove 'em.
Mimes are just assistants with a temporary forcewall. We should just remove them.
Lawyers are just assistants with brig access, we should just remove them.
The only jobs should be Quarterminer, Engineer, Scientist, Security Officer, and Chemist.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:20 am #120590

Goof the point I was trying to make is that there is no 'efficient' reason to divide anything into seperate jobs.
Perhaps I should broaden the example.

Why doesn't everyone have engineering access? When the engineers don't exist/don't setup power, it actually fucks the whole round.
Why don't everyone have medbay/chem access? It's objectively faster if you can just drag a guy/yourself into medbay and heal up, rather then relying on a doctor/chemist to do so.
Why doesn't everyone have R&D/robotics access? The stuff they produce benefits almost every single job (if not all).

Might as well just give everyone all access, it's the most mechanically efficient.

Also robotics is completely unneeded for R&D - if you have to go into robotics to print stuff yourself, it's actually slower then just ignoring robotics altogether and doing it my pure R&D way - I've timed it.

AnonymousNow · Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:05 am

CosmicScientist wrote:"intradepartmental" (I claim the invention of that word, it's mine, all mine!) [/size]

By far the most disturbing thing to happen to me all day is thinking I'd used this in my own posts recently, and then realising I hadn't.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:12 am #120603

For the last time, no.

Deitus · Post by **Deitus** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 am #120622

i am personally against this merge due to aforementioned reasons of interdepartmental relationships. r&d is already a clusterfuck of two or three people fighting to do research rather than work together and accomplishing little more than just pissing each other off. i would actually be in favor of more separation between science and R&D, with a chem-style desk dividing the rooms so the RD can actually DIRECT RESEARCH rather than either a) getting kicked out of the way or b) having to resort to heavyhanding to actually do shit.

Not-Dorsidarf · Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:55 am

This is stupid and you're stupid for rebooting a thread because people called you stupid.

Robotics escaped the Great R&D Mergening because it's almost as powerful as the rest of R&D combined, with a good player and plenty of supplies/research.

Post by **Cobby** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:15 pm #120735

Can there be a poll option to DIVIDE science jobs? Having people be able to make highly volatile explosions, create an army of slimes/golems/both, then create guns for said golem army to use seems kinda silly. Also it accurately represents what departments in Science need more attention.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:22 pm #120744

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:Can there be a poll option to DIVIDE science jobs? Having people be able to make highly volatile explosions, create an army of slimes/golems/both, then create guns for said golem army to use seems kinda silly. Also it accurately represents what departments in Science need more attention.

I'm for this. Xenobiology is the most unique of the science jobs, make Xenobiologist its own job. Replace Experimenter with something that isn't shit, maybe something that actually makes use of the testing lab. Scientists choose between doing R&D, Toxins, or not shit Experimenter replacement.

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:34 pm #120748

I wish i had more to say that wasn't already. I just really don't want my favourite job gutted like this.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:13 pm #120771

Only xenobio and R&D (mostly R&D) have any sort of depth.

Toxins takes 5 minutes for a competent person to do, and the experimentor shouldn't even count as it's own thing.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:34 pm #120777

where are the r&d doors to stop robo from being "r&d the job"

Not-Dorsidarf · Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:35 am

Scones wrote:where are the r&d doors to stop robo from being "r&d the job"

I put up a thread for them and it got "fuck you"-d

Post by **Cobby** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:13 pm #121013

lumipharon wrote:Only xenobio and R&D (mostly R&D) have any sort of depth.

Toxins takes 5 minutes for a competent person to do, and the experimentor shouldn't even count as it's own thing.

It's not like the people in toxins go to Xenobio/RnD once they're done, they just go blow up the station take their bombs to mining and repeat.

Spoiler:

Cuboos · Post by **Cuboos** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:48 am #121084

What if we just gave them the same entrance as RnD? keep them as separate departments like they are now, but just allow for freely moving between the two.

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:43 am #121176

I think someone else mentioned it, but whatever
I think we should go the opposite route and divide science into its different departments.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:55 am #121177

The only departments in RnD that have any real depth are Robotics, Xenobio and Research and Development.

Toxins takes five to ten minutes to set up if you know what your doing and its only real application is for antagonists to blow things up.

The testing lab is just scanning "secret items" and hoping you get something neat.

Teleportation was just Grand Theft Auto in space, AKA read off a cord map of the station and loot the armoury. Then we got testing.

---

When you get down to it RnD is really RNG & Checklist simulator 2555. Xenobio is feeding slimes forever until you hopefully get something you want, RnD is feeding the entire Science department into the Deconstructor until somehow you can produce """cutting edge""" weapons and items (somehow researching toolboxes and current tech tasers for mechs is sufficient enough to unlock the secret's of the universe) and Robotics just feeds off of RnD and Mining for materials.

I don't think the jobs need any further segregation.

Whenever I rarely play as a Roboticist I find myself having to do all the research for me as the Scientists often don't do it, so I can see the benefit of merging the jobs. But sometimes I just want to be able to do my job without Shitface McScientist #113 runs in for his own pet project and steals half my stuff, at least until I accidently cut his brain out thinking he was a patient.

Merging the jobs would make things more hectic, it would also make it far easier for one person to max out research.

Seriously, you don't even need to fucking leave the Department to max out most research. That's stupid.

Ricotez · Post by **Ricotez** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:29 am #121187

Do you guys remember lowpop access? Split Scientist into, I don't know... R&D Technician, Xenobiologist and Toxicologist, and give all jobs (INCLUDING Roboticist) lowpop access to the other departments. The main issue I see is that Xenobiology is the only subdepartment that could fill an entire round. R&D now has the Experimentor to mix things up, but Toxicology badly needs more stuff to do with plasma than just making it go boom. I really wish the research trees in the computer were directly connected to those departments rather than the magic deconstructor.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:30 am #121189

I find it amusing that the only reason Space Station 13 exists is because of Plasma, yet the only thing we can figure out what to do with it is make it blow up, and to be frank it's not that different from traditional explosive materials in terms of power.

If anyone is going to look at adding something interesting to Science its should be in getting some more use out of the only reason the station is around.

Ricotez · Post by **Ricotez** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:37 am #121193

Plasma is our unobtainium. You can only find it near Centration, technology developed based on it literally saved Nanotrasen from bankruptcy and it has a ton of purposes:

When exposed to radiation, it generates electicity.
It is an important catalyst in producing extremely potent medicine.
You can combine it with slime extract for a wide variety of effects.
It is a component of bluespace crystals.
You can use it in place of coal to create an iron alloy stronger than steel - plasteel.
It burns INSANELY well, and if mixed with oxygen in the right ratio, goes magnificently boom.
You can build statues from it, but the Clown will set them on fire.

Now if you look at this list, only one of these things is actually researched in Toxicology.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Why do you keep calling Toxins Toxicology?

DaemonBomb · Post by **DaemonBomb** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:47 pm #121226

This may be slightly off topic, but does anyone else think it's a bit odd that the bit of Science that studies the explosive properties of Plasma is named after a completely separate chemical property? It'd be like calling Rocket Science "Toxins" because you can't drink rocket fuel.

Also, if you think about it, what does Nanotrasen actually pay the station for, in game? The only things that when sent back to NT get Cargo (And thus the station) points are
1) Metal crates
2) Supply Manifests
3) New plants species from Botany
4) Plasma

Based on this, the Station is actually a plasma mining facility that does research into new kinds of plant life and borrowed a shit ton of boxes from Nanotrasen.

Ricotez · Post by **Ricotez** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:08 pm #121229

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Why do you keep calling Toxins Toxicology?

because toxicology is the science of studying toxic materials like plasma

Not-Dorsidarf · Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:23 pm

Ricotez wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Why do you keep calling Toxins Toxicology?
because toxicology is the science of studying toxic materials like plasma

But the game subdepartment is Toxins Research, because they're researching plasma (which used to be called biotoxins). They sure as hell dont do toxicology research in Toxins.

EndgamerAzari · Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:42 pm

DaemonBomb wrote:you can't drink rocket fuel.

On a more serious note, though, would merging them even make sense thematically? I always envisioned the robotics department as the guys with their sleeves rolled up and covered in grease, whereas scientists are the 'eggheads' that come up with new theories and technologies for the grease-monkeys to fiddle around with.

Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:33 pm

Except the scientists also build stuff with the new technology, so there's no real difference between the two.

callanrockslol · Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:42 pm

There should only be 5 jobs on the station, anything else makes no sense.

Science
Service
Engineering
Medical
Security

This would make sense and in no way be because I am sick of people getting the job instead of me I wanted to be the robotacist every round stop getting picked before me!

EndgamerAzari wrote:On a more serious note, though, would merging them even make sense thematically? I always envisioned the robotics department as the guys with their sleeves rolled up and covered in grease, whereas scientists are the 'eggheads' that come up with new theories and technologies for the grease-monkeys to fiddle around with.

Robotics used to be part of engineering and it basically made sense like that.

DaemonBomb · Post by **DaemonBomb** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:42 pm #122845

When Y0SH1's hoverbike stuff gets implemented, Robotics can also probably take care of that.

Post by **oranges** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:25 pm #123026

jeez goof, can you ever accept that people don't always think along the same lines as you?

callanrockslol · Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:16 am

oranges wrote:jeez goof, can you ever accept that people don't always think along the same lines as you?

Why do you even need to ask that question? I can count on one hand the number of times anyone has attempted to not defend something on the forums when literally everyone else was against it, he wants it in the game for reasons and nobody else matters. Which is funny because

us...

and them...

and after all, its only 2d spacemen...

LiamLime · Post by **LiamLime** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:05 am #123551

I don't understand why scientists are treated so different to other jobs. Usually whenever a new game mechanic is created, there is a clamour for a job to be focused around that: mail, telecomms and gravity, for example. More jobs are seen as better than fewer with more for each to do. All jobs on ss13 are focused around a single room and a single machanic... except for scientist, where xenobiology, rnd, toxins and testing are all a part of a single job. I really don't understand why this oddity exists and why people think it inherently makes sense to have this clear exception. I am by no means trying to say the way science works is worse to how other departments work (quite contrary, I think it's better), I however get confused by public opinion about this job, which is the exact opposite of public opinion about all other jobs.

Also, back in the day robotics was a part of medical, not science. While it does belong in science theme-wise, it is way closer to medical mechanics-wise (most similar to genetics). Because you could argue it fits in either medical or science, I think it can reasonably exist as a job of its own and not be merged into any existing job.

Not-Dorsidarf · Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:14 pm

LiamLime wrote:I don't understand why scientists are treated so different to other jobs. Usually whenever a new game mechanic is created, there is a clamour for a job to be focused around that: mail, telecomms and gravity, for example. More jobs are seen as better than fewer with more for each to do. All jobs on ss13 are focused around a single room and a single machanic... except for scientist, where xenobiology, rnd, toxins and testing are all a part of a single job. I really don't understand why this oddity exists and why people think it inherently makes sense to have this clear exception. I am by no means trying to say the way science works is worse to how other departments work (quite contrary, I think it's better), I however get confused by public opinion about this job, which is the exact opposite of public opinion about all other jobs.

Also, back in the day robotics was a part of medical, not science. While it does belong in science theme-wise, it is way closer to medical mechanics-wise (most similar to genetics). Because you could argue it fits in either medical or science, I think it can reasonably exist as a job of its own and not be merged into any existing job.

Robotics was in Engineering, wasnt it?

LiamLime · Post by **LiamLime** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:24 am #123772

It was in engineering for a short bit, yes. Before then, however, back when the electronics storage + comms areas were the location of Toxins (and when you could set the whole station alight by throwing a napalm grenade in there, which heated the underfloor pipes and consequentially air around the station), the robotics lab was by medbay, which was in the same general area as today. I'm however talking about early to mid 2011 and earlier, so it's been a while since what I describe was the case.

Here's a screenshot of it by medbay
Here's a screenshot of it by engineering