Remove stealth op equipment

[onleavedontatme]

Chamelon jumpsuit, shotgun fitting in backpacks (didnt we remove revolvers for a reason?), etc.

A single nuke op walking up to the captain and double tapping him isnt fun for the captain, it isnt fun for crew who suddenly had the round end half an hour into their jobs, and it isnt even fun for the other ops who got to do nothing. And yes I've been in all those positions in this scenario.

[DrPillzRedux]

I've solo'd nuke ops several times with a chameleon suit, silenced pistol, and a voice changer. Not even an emag or anything. Just go to the HoP with your ID and say an assistant stole it.

[ShadowDimentio]

W H Y

W H Y

[Shaps-cloud]

W H Y

W H Y

A single nuke op walking up to the captain and double tapping him isnt fun for the captain, it isnt fun for crew who suddenly had the round end half an hour into their jobs, and it isnt even fun for the other ops who got to do nothing. And yes I've been in all those positions in this scenario.

[invisty]

Better still it removes those cases where a single op loudly demands to go in alone and the rest of the ops sit around awkwardly and maybe arrive for a kill before the bomb goes off.

[ShadowDimentio]

This is a terrible idea but test it if you want

[onleavedontatme]

This is a terrible idea but test it if you want

Could you give some articulation as to why?

[DrPillzRedux]

Kor, instead of getting rid of a nuke op playstyle entirely, try to find a way to make it not the super nukeop strategy.

[Cheimon]

Kor, instead of getting rid of a nuke op playstyle entirely, try to find a way to make it not the super nukeop strategy.

The way to do that without making nuke ops meta-able is to make captains somehow much more able to guard the disk (well, I suppose you could apply a buff to them all acting as a team, but that has other ramifications).

Now that either means the captain is buffed in every round to be able to handle an unexpected assassin comfortably, or he gets some place to put the disk that's pretty damned secure and really requires a combined response. The armoury isn't normally good enough (it's easy enough to bomb in from space and invalidate the armoury), but neither is the bridge. The upload?

Anyway, you would think if there was a place secure enough, that a meta would develop where the disk went there. It hasn't. If you can't fix captain attitudes, and you don't want to buff the captain's gear, the easiest way to do it is to nerf the solo nuke op. Neatly enough, it's also a way to do it without introducing power creep into every other aspect of the nuke op mode.

[DrPillzRedux]

I'm gonna be a shithead and say take inspiration from goon. On their nuke mode, you had to drag the nuke to the center of the station as it moves, like payload in TF2, after you got the disk. So you could make the endgame assault easier by stealthing the part where you steal the disk.

[Helios]

If you were going to remove something,

Spoiler:

remove the ability to transport to abandoned sattelite with syndi shuttle

, just please don't do that.

[TheNightingale]

Most operative teams go in guns blazing and shoot everything that moves. Stealth ops aren't all that common, so they're a nice change from the usual, even if they are very powerful. Rather than limiting their options even further, buff the Captain's gear to be able to take on a lone operative.

Remember, a stealth-op won't be wearing a hardsuit, so their main strength is in the element of surprise and their powerful weapon. You can't nerf the weapon without nerfing all operative teams, so give the Captain some better armour (and the HoS too, since they often carry the disk instead). This means it's universally more difficult to take them down alone, which I'd say is a good thing. As the highest authority on the station, they should be able to defend themselves pretty well, and require planning and proper strategy to take down.

They have a hand teleporter and at least one gun (two if they break their laser case or take a taser from the Armory), and if they're savvy enough to give the pinpointer to someone they trust - or even just hire a bodyguard -, it's a lot harder to take them down for good.

Stealth ops don't need a nerf, the Captain needs a buff. As it stands, you can stunprod, cuff and loot their all-access easily, or even just shoot them down before they can cry for help. An operative would be detected right away if the HoP checked the crew manifest when they were asking for a PDA.

[Shaps-cloud]

Honestly the fact that it only involves one op out of the whole team should be enough a reason to can it

[TheNightingale]

A good stealth operative should never travel alone. Even more so, a good operative team uses multiple forms of attack in case one fails. Two operatives infiltrate and subvert the AI with the Secure Tech Storage board, whilst the rest of the team heads for the disk and takes out any threats they see. The AI can locate and lock down the Captain for the stealth-op team whilst the rest of the crew is distracted by the gunfire and explosions.

Yes, pure stealth can be boring. But so can pure combat; mix it up a little.

[Zilenan91]

I'm gonna be a shithead and say take inspiration from goon. On their nuke mode, you had to drag the nuke to the center of the station as it moves, like payload in TF2, after you got the disk. So you could make the endgame assault easier by stealthing the part where you steal the disk.

Actually no, you have it wrong. How goon does it is that they can set the nuke from the start of the game to blow. It is on a 10 minute timer, and can be reduced by an op slotting the disk into it, or increased by a crew member slotting the disk into it. It creates this sort of last stand type of thing while the Ops sit on top of the nuke and prevent the crew from disarming it. I wouldn't mind if we had that.

[PKPenguin321]

how about remove macrobombs

[lumipharon]

Bein stealthy ops is fun.
Being mlgpr0 lone op who ends the round in 5 minutes while literally no one else gets to do anything is not.

Basically the difference is between
"ops pretending to be sec officers/janitors/whatever, before pulling out a m-90 and assblasting half of sec while they huddle together in fear of the loud ops", compared to:
"one dude silently killing the captain and nuking the station while no one even knows it was nuke ops, and the other ops do shit all." aka: the oldman method.

Also revolvers (if they even did get removed?) was because they're literally just worse then default bulldogs in every way, because slugs.

[DrPillzRedux]

I was referring to the rework goon was doing that was removed as the coder abandoned it, zil.

[Anonmare]

Maybe remove Cham Projectors but Stealth OPs can be really fun if pulled off right and the whole team is involved. It's a lone OP going MLG Pro that's the issue, not the stealth itself

[Helios]

There can also be stealth before doing stuff. I've done it before. Sneak in as a lone op, steal an AI upload board, then sneak off the station, before using a hacked AI upload to convince the crew it is malf, and have fun.

[Doritos]

"one dude silently killing the captain and nuking the station while no one even knows it was nuke ops, and the other ops do shit all." aka: the oldman method.

You fucking what? I invented that shit back in 2012.

[callanrockslol]

"one dude silently killing the captain and nuking the station while no one even knows it was nuke ops, and the other ops do shit all." aka: the oldman method.

You fucking what? I invented that shit back in 2012.

Burer was doing that before you were even around.

[Incomptinence]

The solo op method is funny when it flops or the imitator has no clue and it never really starts. Or the solo op never even tells anyone to wait and gets a perfect fucking disguise then the dead get to watch him perfectly fucking hidden as the mime pass the captain in a low traffic area and chicken out.

[Helios]

"one dude silently killing the captain and nuking the station while no one even knows it was nuke ops, and the other ops do shit all." aka: the oldman method.

You fucking what? I invented that shit back in 2012.

Did you consider that it's called the Oldman method not because he invented it, but because he's a frequent player, and that is what he often ends up doing?

[NikNakFlak]

Don't remove the stealth methods, stealth ops don't even happen that often because most nuke ops are new to the role because it's rarish to get it. Plus, I will be royally pissed if cigarette butt ops is removed. That shit is hilarious.

[confused rock]

I'm gonna be a shithead and say take inspiration from goon. On their nuke mode, you had to drag the nuke to the center of the station as it moves, like payload in TF2, after you got the disk. So you could make the endgame assault easier by stealthing the part where you steal the disk.

How about make it so you need to use the on station nuke? especially considering it takes c4 to get into the vault (which takes 10 seconds of inactivity to deploy) or a grenade that causes a hull breach. It also makes sense because why would the syndies have their own nuke but not be able to detonate it?

[ShadowDimentio]

I'm in favor of this. Syndies have to break into the vault after wrecking the Cap and defend it from the crew for like 1-5 minutes until it detonates. It'd both solve this (nonexistant) problem and give the ops something new to do

[TheNightingale]

I'm gonna be a shithead and say take inspiration from goon. On their nuke mode, you had to drag the nuke to the center of the station as it moves, like payload in TF2, after you got the disk. So you could make the endgame assault easier by stealthing the part where you steal the disk.

How about make it so you need to use the on station nuke? especially considering it takes c4 to get into the vault (which takes 10 seconds of inactivity to deploy) or a grenade that causes a hull breach. It also makes sense because why would the syndies have their own nuke but not be able to detonate it?

I quite like this idea. The operative team is provided with the code for the station's nuke (gained through espionage and reverse-engineering of captured nuke disks from traitors), and its location - the Vault. When they get the disk, they have to guard the nuke long enough to set us up the bomb - after that, they can remove the disk, lock the nuke and exfil at their leisure (if the nuke is locked, but active, and the disk is missing, the crew can't stop it).

The only problem is, when people hear about operatives they'll rush to fortify the Vault with RCDs/plasteel/proximity bombs, and the time in between the team being discovered and the team setting up the bomb is significant enough that someone can just walk in and build bolted airlocks everywhere (think 'engiborg AI satellite' but worse). We'd need either rules against fortifying the Vault, or a way that the operatives can overcome two dozen r-walls whilst being shot at by everyone ever.

[invisty]

I agree, the whole idea that the syndies would need the disc to detonate the Nanotrasen nuke in their possession is retarded. Why would they not simply hack the nuke and remove the security restriction?

Indeed it makes more sense that the syndicate have to destroy the station with its own nuke. It would also spice up the game mode a little by requiring some serious barricading/area control for each team. Map control is fun (see: Gang dominators, malf AI, etc). It would also add value to the syndie mechs (since mechs are great at controlling an area).

[Shaps-cloud]

Barricading just boils down to RCD spam 99% of the time, nuke is fine as is in that regard

[lumipharon]

>build 50 million airlocks aroun the vault, don't even need to bolt them all
>paladin AI just door crushes all the ops

[DemonFiren]

They still get syndieborgs, no?

Also, >what are emags

[TheNightingale]

Emags don't work on bolted airlocks, and syndiborgs don't work on depowered+bolted airlocks (e.g. if the AI turns Environment off in the Vault). Even just depowering the Vault would work unless they use bombs or C4.

[Zilenan91]

Why don't we just do it the goon way and make it so the Ops can prime the nuke round start, but it takes 10 minutes (adjustable of course) for it to actually detonate.

The nuke disk itself could either reduce the time if Ops use it on the nuke, or increase the time if crew use it on the nuke, which means that it becomes more of an optional objective rather than a if you lose this you die sort of thing.

[invisty]

So basically like a gang dominator is right now.

You know what would happen though? 6-max-cap suicide bombs eliminate all the syndies, then the captain walks in to disarm the nuke.

[Zilenan91]

But that already happens with dominators, and Ops have big fuckoff mechs and borgs and also bombs that they can prepare to fuck the station 6 ways from sunday before they start arming it.

They will also probably kill the AI and tcomms, so they kill the AI and tcomms, lock their nuke in a room, have the borg bolt it down, they emag it, door's inoperable, then they sit around it until someone finds them (since announcing their site to 80 prime time people on sybil would be retarded) and gets killed, and then the swarm arrives and they pass or fail depending on how well they prepared.

Something else this will do is really limit the power the AI has in Op rounds, meaning that Ops won't be forced to have a borg every single round since they won't be reliant on mobility, but staying power, making things like mechs, viscerator grenades, and defensive syndicate bombs more common, and make the mode more interesting in general.

[lumipharon]

That would radically change nuke ops.

Current ops is about getting the disk quickly or you get bogged down by the 500 grey shirts with prods and floor tiles.
King of the hillnuke would boil downto fuck loads of ammo, explosives, RCDs and plasma fire.

[Zilenan91]

That sounds a lot more awesome than the captain getting killed in the hallway and the round just ending.

[Steelpoint]

I would not be against a proposed alternative win method of having to defend the nuke in a set location, but it will bound to be fraught with problems and complaints.

[1g88a]

I'm gonna be a shithead and say take inspiration from goon. On their nuke mode, you had to drag the nuke to the center of the station as it moves, like payload in TF2, after you got the disk. So you could make the endgame assault easier by stealthing the part where you steal the disk.

Unless they changed it again, AFAIK nuke on Goon is now about taking the nuke to a selected part of the station and defending it until it detonates, the disk is now an optional objective that lets syndies shorten the timer/crew to extend it. It essentially makes Ops entirely about assaulting and resulted in mass-suicide-bombers trying to destroy the nuke/kill the ops guarding it. I tried it the other week and we had to target the pool area, which for those unfamiliar with cogmap is right off a high-traffic main corridor well inside the station in between sec and the bar, so needless to say it went poorly.

[rdght91]

What about just making a different objective that has nothing to do with nuke for Ops? A new gamemode that is basically the same (and the crew doesn't know the difference) but instead the Ops are required to take and hold anything from the teleport room/cargo bay/AI sat teleporter to hack it to receive a larger invasion force or something similar?

[lumipharon]

What about just making a different objective that has nothing to do with nuke for Ops? A new gamemode that is basically the same (and the crew doesn't know the difference) but instead the Ops are required to take and hold anything from the teleport room/cargo bay/AI sat teleporter to hack it to receive a larger invasion force or something similar?

This would be entertaining.

Personally as an op I always give our team a totally official secondary objective of kidnapping the captain/other heads, and escaping back to syndie base with them alive.
It's pretty fun when you need to not only capture instead of kill them, but then cuff and suit them up so they don't die when you take them back to the shuttle.

[Helios]

this thread is just devolving into describing Black Ops game mode goofball was working on

[Saegrimr]

Or just have the operative commander's console able to select an objective. Nuke station, capture captain, manually destroy ~50% of the crew, upheave and steal the R&D computers, shit I don't know.

Someone screams OPS and nobody will know if they want the disk, the computers, or if they're just out for blood. Harder to meta.

[Zellion]

Or just have the operative commander's console able to select an objective. Nuke station, capture captain, manually destroy ~50% of the crew, upheave and steal the R&D computers, shit I don't know.

Someone screams OPS and nobody will know if they want the disk, the computers, or if they're just out for blood. Harder to meta.

do this pls its a great idea

[Steelpoint]

If you gave the Op commander the option to select their mission they'll all pick the route of least resistance.

I'm going to wager it'll be easier to kill people than to steal something, disk or information.

[Saegrimr]

Just like pizza ops never happen because 100% of people always run through SW solars.

[Steelpoint]

The uniqueness of events like Pizza Ops, or Blackjack Ops, or Cardboard Box Ops, or whatever gimmick Ops is that they are rare and require player skill, intuition and assertiveness to do.

If every round was 'Gimmick' Ops then it would not be unique.

Those special moments should be the outliners, not be forced to be the norm. We should mould the game mode based on the standard of play but leave room for some uniqueness.

[Saegrimr]

So how is that any different from having a choice of options? Nothing is forcing them. If they want to do something different or fun unoptimized casual garbage, then why not let them?

[lumipharon]

well objectives ultimately only equal some green coloured text. They already have the choice of options to do whatever they want. Hence cigarette butt ops, pizza ops etc.