Drone and Silicon vision of humans

[InsaneHyena]

I like this idea, but I don't think that removing ability to validhunt from people is going to fly with a lot of players.

[TheNightingale]

It also means you have no idea if the person trying to enter your upload is covered in blood with a dual esword.

[Remie Richards]

GOD no.

[Davidchan]

Giving the AI this when people with sensors on but not on cameras would be okay, or slaved borgs to an AI getting this to any crew not in direct sight (otherside of a door/wall/smoke or other sight obstruction) but is still detected would also be fine.

Outright preventing borgs and AIs from being able to discern who is who? Bad idea, specially given how much security relies on AI to identify criminals.

[Saegrimr]

"AI HELP HE'S KILLING ME"

There are two blobs of static standing next to eachother.
You bolt down the entire area, call the entire sec force into the room, call the shuttle, bolt all external airlocks, request and ERT, and adminhelp in advance about some faggot murdering people probably a nonantag.

It was just two assistants tabling eachother.

[Super Aggro Crag]

this idea is simultaneously stupid and dumb

[Drynwyn]

[bandit]

Also, in my experience a lot of new players find the dronevision of humans confusing (and I think that maybe two people total know you can shift-click them -- it's not intuitive for a role that isn't supposed to generally click people at all). Expanding it isn't a good idea.

[invisty]

The point being to try and visually get across that the sillycones shouldn't be valid hunting or defining people differently based on how they look and to give a barrier of immediate recognition by a secborg on who's security and who they would beat up/cuff if they were security. Oh and the inhands removal stops AIs from understanding someone's got a gun, an e-sword or anything suspicious from a glance and it can't be gotten around with an examine verb because none exist for them over cameras last I checked.

Im not sure if the idea youre proposing seems to be the right solution to the problem. Sure, its a somewhat ham-fisted solution, but I think there must be tidier ways to go about addressing validhunting silicons and security favouritism?

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I like the idea of health-doll vision for medborgs

[Super Aggro Crag]

stop crying about validhunters. here's a fucking idea, don't be shit when you're an antag and maybe you won't get owned.

[TheNightingale]

We could always just buff the AI detector multitool to make the holder invisible to AIs. It worked for changelings.

[bandit]

Doesn't AI and cyborg have an account age barrier to entry? That's meant to make it so that hopefully players who have learnt a thing or two go into higher requirement roles? Also I wasn't really listing inspect as something to be a part of this to get around the fuzzy silhouettes, I was more wondering why that is even something you can do in the game since it's the first thing I did when I saw the silhouettes were a thing and got confused, was it never brought up?

Yeah but drone-o-vision isn't really something you encounter anywhere else, so new players can absolutely be confused by it (I got an ahelp once by someone who asked why there were so many "glitches")

[PKPenguin321]

stop crying about validhunters. here's a fucking idea, don't be shit when you're an antag and maybe you won't get owned.

Oh, craggy crag crag crag-boy. Anyone with eyes can see that traitors aren't as strong as they used to be!

[Gun Hog]

GOD no.

Quoted for emphasis.

People who make AWFUL suggestions like this deserve to have them applied to their own characters.

[PKPenguin321]

GOD no.

Quoted for emphasis.

People who make AWFUL suggestions like this deserve to have them applied to their own characters.

hey guys you know what would be really cool? if we made every assistant spawn with an undroppable gun that does 100000 damage per hit, and gibs people if they're hit by it in melee range. it has unlimited ammo and can go through anything, like an xray laser, and has no click cooldown. if you have it you instantly get antag status too.

[newfren]

GOD no.

Quoted for emphasis.

People who make AWFUL suggestions like this deserve to have them applied to their own characters.

hey guys you know what would be really cool? if we made every assistant spawn with an undroppable gun that does 100000 damage per hit, and gibs people if they're hit by it in melee range. it has unlimited ammo and can go through anything, like an xray laser, and has no click cooldown. if you have it you instantly get antag status too.

I have a similar idea except my gun also comes with immunity from his gun.

[Drynwyn]

GOD no.

Quoted for emphasis.

People who make AWFUL suggestions like this deserve to have them applied to their own characters.

hey guys you know what would be really cool? if we made every assistant spawn with an undroppable gun that does 100000 damage per hit, and gibs people if they're hit by it in melee range. it has unlimited ammo and can go through anything, like an xray laser, and has no click cooldown. if you have it you instantly get antag status too.

I have a similar idea except my gun also comes with immunity from his gun.

my gun comes with +BAN.

[Scott]

What an awful idea.

[Steelpoint]

>AI is too powerful in shutting down antags

Lets propose a way to lessen this then.

>GOD no

The cycle of shit all happening marches forward like a train on the clock.

I actually don't think this is a bad idea, however I think it should only apply to the AI. It would at least mean the AI has to rely more on their Borgs for confirmation.

[Remie Richards]

I didn't state why it's god awful because if you had more than 1 brain cell you'd have already come to the same conclusion.
Yes this would reduce AI antag hunting, do you want to know why? BECAUSE THERE WOULD BE FAR LESS AI PLAYERS.
You will quite literally kill the role, yes you got what you want, but you're just removing that job because you've been fucked over my it a few times (Said times probably also being your fault)

[Steelpoint]

Claiming X will kill Y is quite a statement to make, and hard to back up.

I still think this idea is at least worth some discussion, it has merit in my humble opinion.

For example, we could set up a system where the AI can still read the names of people, see who is hitting who via the sprites moving attack animation, as well as setting the AI to, by default, use the SecHUD so they can at all times see the role of the person on screen.

What this system does is make it that people can't be instantly called out by the AI for doing or holding something, it also increases cooperation between the AI and its Borgs as well as Security as the AI will need them to help confirm whatever is going on, thus creating a sort of dependency that right now is near non-exsitant between the AI and select station personal (excluding Borgs and Traitor buddies).

The AI will still be able to see violence occur on station and respond to it. Prehaps we can also set up a system where anyone wearing a 'foreign' uniform or suit (AKA: Wizard Garbs, Nuke Ops Hardsuit, etc) get a unique overlay showing a flashing ! over the body to signal certain antags out, so at least the AI can easily see them.

Also you can set up so that cameras that are upgraded by RnD can grant the AI full vision on people, thus further incentivising cooperation with the station staff to allow the AI to operate at 100% efficiency.

[TheNightingale]

What about lowpop AIs that don't have cyborgs?
If you're going to nerf a role into the ground, you have to make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. If a small minority of AI players validhunt, deal with those; don't punish the decent AIs. If your law dictates "X is the only human", then you're going to have a bad time when you can't actually recognise X.

Address the actual problem here - it's not whether or not AIs can see things, it's what they do with that information. AIs don't need a nerf so long as people realise they're not actually Security's private validhunting tool. This is just throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

[Steelpoint]

Throwing the baby out would be removing the AI altogether.

If you want to additionally address these issues then just remove the AI's inaction clause from their rule set so they have no obligation to actually assist a Human without prompt. Other server's do this to good effect.

[Cheimon]

It seems to me that you are addressing your perceived problem in entirely the wrong way. AIs give too much of a shit about humans, you say, so blindfold the AIs. All that's going to achieve is irritating AI players and making it a less enjoyable job.

If you want AIs not to feel obliged to prevent human harm, maybe you could try pushing for a default lawset where human harm isn't the biggest priority! It would certainly make more sense than this. The only reason drones get this view is to hammer it into their tiny heads that they are not supposed to care at all about any being whatsoever, except other drones.

Being able to see what people look like is immensely important for judging their character. Character judgements are the bread and butter of AI roleplay. If I, as an AI player, cannot distinguish between any two particular people, I think lose out on most of the gameplay.

[Gun Hog]

If you want to additionally address these issues then just remove the AI's inaction clause from their rule set so they have no obligation to actually assist a Human without prompt. Other server's do this to good effect.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/13111

[PKPenguin321]

To be honest, this isn't the worst idea I've ever heard. The AI is supposed to be a neutral third party, and seeing the crew as the same is a decent way to accomplish this.

[Shadowlight213]

God no. I absolutely hate the drone static vision. Having it apply to silicons as well would be a nightmare.
AIs already need suit sensors maxed to have their med hud work. What you'd see is ais just using their sechud to watch for criminals rather than watch for harm. You'd probably get MORE validhunting since ais would start bolting down or tracking wanted people.
Plus, I can see a way to abuse it to ignore law 2 and stuff.
"AI why did you bolt me in?"
"You were set to wanted"
"Well unbolt me! Law 2!"
"Unable to visually confirm humanity. Stand by while I search records. :s Security to theatre"
"AI security is killing me! HELP LAW 1!"
"I am still trying to confirm you are human and not a strangely named lizard with a speech abnormality."

[TheNightingale]

"Hold on, you didn't use any S's in that last sentence, so I don't know if you're a human or a lizard... uh... okay, I'm sending one of my cyborgs to get the Captain to confirm whether or not you're human. If you are, *then* I can let you into Auxiliary Tool Storage."

[PKPenguin321]

God no. I absolutely hate the drone static vision. Having it apply to silicons as well would be a nightmare.
AIs already need suit sensors maxed to have their med hud work. What you'd see is ais just using their sechud to watch for criminals rather than watch for harm. You'd probably get MORE validhunting since ais would start bolting down or tracking wanted people.
Plus, I can see a way to abuse it to ignore law 2 and stuff.
"AI why did you bolt me in?"
"You were set to wanted"
"Well unbolt me! Law 2!"
"Unable to visually confirm humanity. Stand by while I search records. :s Security to theatre"
"AI security is killing me! HELP LAW 1!"
"I am still trying to confirm you are human and not a strangely named lizard with a speech abnormality."

...ban that AI?

[Zilenan91]

This is how you nerf the AI if it's too much of a problem for traitors, make cameras run off the goddamn powernet.

It would give traitors a dedicated, but limited, AI stopper in the form of the powersink. It would drain the power from everything, and thus deactivate all of the cameras.

[Kelenius]

This is how you nerf the AI if it's too much of a problem for traitors, make cameras run off the goddamn powernet.

It would give traitors a dedicated, but limited, AI stopper in the form of the powersink. It would drain the power from everything, and thus deactivate all of the cameras.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

No

How would you enjoy being literally blind to everything while all the greyshirts call you rogue because you are not opening the doors for them?

[Zilenan91]

Why would they ask you to open a door that's depowered, that's stupid.

[DemonFiren]

>implying greyshits aren't stupid

[PKPenguin321]

Zile has a point tho

[Steelpoint]

It's already piss easy to smash a camera to death last time I checked.

I think that so long as this idea only applies to the AI, and not the Cyborgs, as well as offering ways for the AI to remove this "limitation" such as upgraded Cameras or being able to see anyone's true self when a Borg can see them.

[TheNightingale]

Lowpop AIs might not have cyborgs, or even people to upgrade the cameras.
(Edit - fixed spelling. Autocorrect hates 'lowpop')

[PKPenguin321]

It's already piss easy to smash a camera to death last time I checked.

I think that so long as this idea only applies to the AI, and not the Cyborgs, as well as offering ways for the AI to remove this "limitation" such as upgraded Cameras or being able to see anyone's true self when a Borg can see them.

>smash camera
>AI/borgs get BIG RED MESSAGE that basically screams "THERE IS AN ANTAGONIST HERE"
>swarmed by borgs and sec

[TheNightingale]

> Cut camera with wirecutters and screwdriver
> Nobody notices
> The AI thinks it was always like that
> The cyborgs take half an hour to go over and fix it

Or...

> EMP camera
> Do your crimes
> Disable camera while it's still EMPed
> Nobody notices

[Zilenan91]

>implying you can get away with cutting the cameras

The noise of doing so is hella loud, and it takes a few seconds to do so. If anyone hears you they're gonna beat the shit out of you and baddabing your round is over friendo.

Also tools may not always be accessible to you, Ops in particular because why would you ever have tools other than a welder for repairs because of your limited inventory.

[PKPenguin321]

> Cut camera with wirecutters and screwdriver
> Nobody notices
> The AI thinks it was always like that
> The cyborgs take half an hour to go over and fix it

Or...

> EMP camera
> Do your crimes
> Disable camera while it's still EMPed
> Nobody notices

the only place you would ever really need to cut a camera is where other people would be, and if other people are around they get a BIG RED MESSAGE saying that you cut the camera

as for EMPs, they're a retarded argument considering you pretty much HAVE to be a traitor to get them and you HAVE to spend more than a quarter of your TCs on them (holy shit i just got a great idea for a TC price change)

[Zilenan91]

Ehhhhhh I think EMPs are at an okay price right now tbh, just cheap enough to do the function you want. If they were any lower every murderboner and their mother would be buying them to spam EMP's whenever they even began to smell jackboots.

[TheNightingale]

as for EMPs, they're a retarded argument considering you pretty much HAVE to be a traitor to get them and you HAVE to spend more than a quarter of your TCs on them (holy shit i just got a great idea for a TC price change)

Changelings get them too with dissonant shriek (and that one ability that makes them invisible to AIs, if you count that), and cult has EMP talismans. Revolutions don't need to disable cameras via EMP, as they rely on snowballing and exiling the heads before Security gets their act together. Gangs suffer from a lack of EMPs, though, I'll admit that.

And can we stop using the r-slur when we really mean "an illogical argument"? Thanks.

[PKPenguin321]

as for EMPs, they're a retarded argument considering you pretty much HAVE to be a traitor to get them and you HAVE to spend more than a quarter of your TCs on them (holy shit i just got a great idea for a TC price change)

Changelings get them too with dissonant shriek (and that one ability that makes them invisible to AIs, if you count that), and cult has EMP talismans. Revolutions don't need to disable cameras via EMP, as they rely on snowballing and exiling the heads before Security gets their act together. Gangs suffer from a lack of EMPs, though, I'll admit that.

And can we stop using the r-slur when we really mean "an illogical argument"? Thanks.

changelings are also disabled from the server indefinitely, and newcult afaik can only get them with hard RNG
if rev doesn't need them in the first place then why are you even bringing them up? they're completely irrelevant
gangs do suffer from lack of EMPs (or any good way of stunning borgs for that matter), yes. i've seen many a gang get stomped by a single secborg

[Actionb]

Drones are not meant to take notice of other beings - the static helps with that.
Silicons are meant to interact with the crew. The distinction of humans against non-humans is one keypoint of the asimov lawset, the other is recognizing harm. A static overlay would just turn these points into a guesswork clusterfuck.

>smash camera
>AI/borgs get BIG RED MESSAGE that basically screams "THERE IS AN ANTAGONIST HERE"
>swarmed by borgs and sec

No big red message for anyone not within sight. Silicons just get 'Camera alarm in Vacant Office', and trust me... nobody will give a fuck about cut cameras unless the area around the broken camera looks like the Lunaris Temple.
If you don't have an engiborg that you can order around, chances of broken cameras ever getting fixed are REALLY low.
You (as the AI) might not even notice it, depending on how active the chat is. Add to that, that screwdriver and wirecutters are everywhere, I can't for the life for me understand the issue here. Wanna be super extra ninja tacticool and not make any sound? Then use a multitool instead of wirecutters! Fuck even just turning the lights off is usually enough to make the AI unable to tell what is going on.
If you cut cameras while the AI is looking at you, you shouldn't be suprised that a consciousness designed around 'preventing' (ugh, I hate that word, but it does fit most of time) harm is really damn curious why you don't want it to see what's going on.
All these people complaining should play more AI to get a feeling how things really are.

[Atticat]

I am definitely in favor of the spirit of this idea. The invisible antag hunter and his army of asimov violaters can always use some limitations.

[oranges]

The only way to fix the AI is to remove it completely.

Borgs are okay but the harmyeller central MUST GO

[Anonmare]

Will literally never happen Oranges.