Replace RD with tech web

[onleavedontatme]

Stolen from Civilization and the like.

Basically RD would slowly generate their RD points or whatever the fuck, using a special computer/machine. They could put these points towards an option on the tech web. Unlocking Robotics I lets you research Robotics II as well as nanites, etc, while going down another path gets you other upgrades. All the various recipes require you have unlocked their relevant techs.

For large amounts of minerals/depending on what part of the tech tree you did, science could build more bitcoin miners or whatever to increase their research speed.

Deconstructing items could give you boosts in RD speed (though only once per item type, and items you print out would not provide boosts), or maybe make specific techs in the tree cheaper (you'd still have to reach and research them). Special data disks found in mining, gained from events, etc, would either let you unlock techs or unlock item schematics, skipping their research requirements.

The alien/illegal/paranormal trees would remain locked until you deconstruct at least one item from those trees.

Would probably help if I had some doodles to go with this with RD names on them, but what do people think of the general idea?

[Sweaterkittens]

I was thinking about something like this just the other day. I think having RnD being less of just following a recipe, deconning the same things and unlocking the same tech - and having it have a lot more choice involved would be better. What if a blob appears late and you haven't begun down the tree with x-rays? What if power dies but you haven't gone down the tree with night vision? I think it'd help late-game research being a be-all end all, and keep it interesting. "what will I research this round?"

[Ricotez]

I really want a rework of the R&D system but I'm not so sure about abstract "research points". Where do they come from? Why do they advance research?

[onleavedontatme]

I really want a rework of the R&D system but I'm not so sure about abstract "research points". Where do they come from? Why do they advance research?

An abstraction of the processing/time power it takes for your supercomputer to do all those calculations/solve the mysteries of the universe.

[lumipharon]

Definitely better than the current mindless shit system, but I do still prefer my idea, simply because having something simply time gated is pretty dull and less than practical considering rounds are often short, and out of your control.

Shilling below

With my suggestion it requires more co-operation with other departments to get research to certain levels, with the even higher levels requiring rare/not frequently occuring shit to reach (such as xeno brains or anom cores etc), with the very highest being badmin tier.

Basically
Low tier: Research as currently (eguns for combat, super cap batteries for power etc)
Mid tier: Requires shit from other jobs/departments (bluespace tomatoes for bluespace, high end slime cores for bio etc)
High tier: Requires rare shit/hard earned trophies (bluespace anom core for bluespace, xeno brain for bio etc)
God tier: Badmins be shitting pulse rifles (pulse destroyer for combat etc)

Where as OP's suggestion seems to predominantly be 'waiting simulator', which I don't think fits ss13 (but is perfectly good for an RTS or something).

[PKPenguin321]

I really want a rework of the R&D system but I'm not so sure about abstract "research points". Where do they come from? Why do they advance research?

they are datamining for bitcoins and when they get enough they buy the research off of a lesser known third party

[Luke Cox]

Kor for head everything 2016

[TechnoAlchemist]

Seems cool mate

thought you meant replacing the RD with like a being of pure data and I was intrigued but this is also good.

[DemonFiren]

Seems cool mate

thought you meant replacing the RD with like a being of pure data and I was intrigued but this is also good.

AI can oversee Research no problem once this is in.

[Ikarrus]

Instead pf just letting you print things en masse (or even worse limit it by extremely rare minerals) can we start to transition to a Science system that provides a passive boost that affects everything in that round? Idea also taken from 4X games.

Eg
"Energy Level 3" gives borgs +100 health or -50% energy drain
"Circuitry Level 5" unlocks secborgs
"Scanning level 2" gives the station a 1-minute early warning before any random event triggers. Higher levels could specify exactly what event it is or make the warnings happen earlier
"Storage level 2" increases passive cargo point rate
"Bio Level 2" Bruise packs and ointments heal twice as much
"Mechanical Level 4" makes hacking doors harder by scrambling wires
"Materials level 3" makes walls and windows harder to break

I had lots of fun just making these up.

We could then also nerf the initial states on some of the more ridiculous infinite-use tools (you wanted to make medical less OP?) and Make science a more integral part of the game instead of just a weapons factory.

Science would directly contribute to a universal sense of progression for all players in the game round.

[DemonFiren]

For the love of all that is holy, do not nerf the experimental welder.

[Steelpoint]

Here's a basic Tech Tree that needs a lot of work and only shows how I think a tech tree should be made for SS13.



The early techs should not take long to research but the more mid to late game techs should take long enough to either require RnD to find ways to speed up research (Decon and other) or to fully commit to one tech tree path (going pure Exosuit for example).

There also should be, as Ikkarus suggested, upgrades that affect the station that go into effect easily. So if you research a specific tech, for example you branch off of Nanites into researching 'Medical Nanites I', then there is a crew announcement saying all station bound Brute and Burn patches and akin will heal for more.

[Ikarrus]

I think we can do even better and have research breakthroughs release an automated newscaster article instead. It's less spammy, keeps a persistent research log for anyone to check, and we can write in flavor text that roughly explains the gameplay effects in-character. Lit could be humerous, serious, or campy asspulling mgs-style.

[Steelpoint]

Another concept is splitting research between 'foundation tech' and 'new tech'.

Going with the Tech Tree idea I made above, Foundation Tech is technology that already exists and is simply used as a foundation (pardon the pun) for more advance technology to be based off of. While the New Technology is, as implied, new technology that is based off of the Foundation Tech.

What this means is that researching Foundation Tech will be quick and easy, and be be instantly completed by de-constructing one item in that Foundation Tech category so long as the prior tech is researched.

Using my crap tech tree as a example, if you decon a Power Cell you would instantly unlock the 'Power I' tech.

--

New Technology would take longer to research, however de-constructing a single piece of tech from a prior attached Tech will decrease the needed Research Points by a certain value, but you can only decon one item to speed up a in research Tech.

For example again, if your now researching 'Lasergun I' then deconing a Laser Gun, which is a item unlocked from the 'Focal Point Laser I' tech, will remove X points of needed RP to unlock the tech.

[ShadowDimentio]

I like the idea of automating R&D more and replacing feeding and producing things in a SPECIFIC ORDER with feeding the machine with tech and it working faster.

[Beegix]

If players can start the round as a borg, why wouldn't basic borgs be a round-start item? As a primarily-Robotics player, I always like upgrading borgs with better cells and upgrades as the round progresses, but taking them away from round-start is a bit much. I'd suggest either removing the ability to make/provide better cells for them at round-start (IIRC they start with a 5k cell, but there are 7.5k cells all over the place in Sci), or buff them so this early round-start upgrade becomes obsolete. Personally, I prefer the first option.

[Steelpoint]

My shitty tech suggestion was that there are three tiers of Cyborg Chassis. A Basic Model, a Standard Model and a Adv Model.

The Basic Model would have less health, anyone would be able to remove its Power Cell due to it being exposed and it can only have one module active at a time, and is unlocked from the Robotics I tech. The Standard Model would be identical to the Chassis that's in the game and is unlocked from the Robotics II tech. The final Adv Model would be a bipedal model (we have sprites for that) that keeps the advantages of the Mark 2 Chassis but also has the perks of arms and legs.

The round start Cyborg would be using a 'Prototype Chassis' which would be identical to a Standard Model (Mark 2), so the round start Cyborg has a advantage and it does not significantly disadvantage a rogue AI.

[PKPenguin321]

My shitty tech suggestion was that there are three tiers of Cyborg Chassis. A Basic Model, a Standard Model and a Adv Model.

The Basic Model would have less health, anyone would be able to remove its Power Cell due to it being exposed and it can only have one module active at a time, and is unlocked from the Robotics I tech. The Standard Model would be identical to the Chassis that's in the game and is unlocked from the Robotics II tech. The final Adv Model would be a bipedal model (we have sprites for that) that keeps the advantages of the Mark 2 Chassis but also has the perks of arms and legs.

The round start Cyborg would be using a 'Prototype Chassis' which would be identical to a Standard Model (Mark 2), so the round start Cyborg has a advantage and it does not significantly disadvantage a rogue AI.

out of the scope of this idea, we're here to talk about how to make of R&D itself different, not the rewards from it. that should probably come after.

[lumipharon]

This also turns R&D into a waiting simulator - the entire job can be done by the AI/any random popping in every now and then and clickin the next thin to research.

[onleavedontatme]

This also turns R&D into a waiting simulator - the entire job can be done by the AI/any random popping in every now and then and clickin the next thin to research.

Wouldn't a waiting simulator be better than 15-20 minutes of actively shoving things into a machine? It's still a timegate either way, but this way you're free to do other things like toxins/slimes/get a drink at the bar while the timegate is happening.

[Jazaen]

Well, it kind of removes a sub-department this way. Maybe import market in some way, or add some other way of making it faster. So far all departments reward people for knowing how to do them, in some way. This would basically make R&D a bit like the tesla engine (set it and forget it) only this time you visit once, say, 10 minutes to set new research or get something. Even engineering has constructable things like SM or multiple engines.

[Zilenan91]

The sub-department that exists right now isn't fun though. You stand in a room clicking on a machine with various items for 20 minutes and guns fall out.

[Cheimon]

This sounds like a worthwhile alternative to try, at least. The current system is a bit weird, and it doesn't make a lot of sense. Why does throwing items already made on the station (like syringe guns) into an analyser give you a higher overall technology level? At least now you can come up with a more plausible IC excuse. It might be downloading and decrypting requested information over a very slow but highly secure network to and from centcom, for example. Want to make x-ray guns? Well fine, says centcom, but it's going to take a few minutes sending that over. We can't risk the manufacturing processes falling into syndicate corporations' hands, they're much more valuable than a single finished gun.

[onleavedontatme]

I'm imagining something like one main supercomputer with a set resource generation speed.

And you can build auxiliary computers to boost that speed (for a large number of resources) but there is a cap on the number of auxiliary servers that can be linked. Certain techs would increase the number of extra computers you can have.

Just putting this idea here for later/unrelated to this current conversation.

[lumipharon]

Wouldn't a waiting simulator be better than 15-20 minutes of actively shoving things into a machine? It's still a timegate either way, but this way you're free to do other things like toxins/slimes/get a drink at the bar while the timegate is happening.

That's bad logic though - it can be applied to almost any job.
Botany should be replaced with a system where you select what plant you want and you wait until it pops out 20 bananas or whatever, but hey, you can drink at the bar while you wait!
Chef choses what food to create and after waiting a bit it pops out of the food-o-matic!
Geneticist chooses what power they want to unlock and after waiting it becomes available!

Sure, current R&D isn't complex or anything, but when it comes down to it, no job is. If you remove all the actual player input except for press X to get Y, then it's all pretty pointless.
Like I said earlier, a tech tree style thing works perfectly fine in RTS' and shit because you have the actual game to play - with SS13 unless you're an antag or a validhunter, doing your job is (a significant part of) the game.

[Ikarrus]

Yeah but if we don't timegate it then I won't be able to make cool passive benefits like the ones I described above!

No way should they be all fully unlocked after just 10 minutes of clicking. It'd work even better when you can't get them all For at least an hour or two, making the various departments try and curry favor with the RD to focus in their trees first.

[Steelpoint]

The idea I had which is what Ikarrus is suggesting is that generally RD should only be able to full research into one, maybe two, research tree's in the average round outside of extraordinary circumstances (admin events or special items being found that boost research) or a extended two hour round.

Only problem is Exosuits for Robotics, however as I proposed you should aim to tie Robotics and Exosuits together so that if you research one you have to research the other, and that you can use Robotics and Exosuits as pre-requisites for other tech tree's.

[lumipharon]

Yeah but if we don't timegate it then I won't be able to make cool passive benefits like the ones I described above!

No way should they be all fully unlocked after just 10 minutes of clicking. It'd work even better when you can't get them all For at least an hour or two, making the various departments try and curry favor with the RD to focus in their trees first.

Which is why I would prefer something like my suggestion, which would require some level of interdepartmental cooperation, and rare shit hard earned from murdering xenos/chopping up lings/killing demons/etc to reach the best shit.
Current R&D is shit yes, but Kor's option is not the only alternative.

[Grazyn]

Throw in some rng like in the Hearts of Iron research tree, researching high level techs should give you a chance to unlock the branch with endgame goodies (implants, x-rays etc.) instead of unlocking them straight away. Having those things behind a rng barrier should help reduce the powercreep. You should still be pretty much guaranteed to unlock them if you pile up enough chance-providing unlocked techs

[Drynwyn]

Wouldn't a waiting simulator be better than 15-20 minutes of actively shoving things into a machine? It's still a timegate either way, but this way you're free to do other things like toxins/slimes/get a drink at the bar while the timegate is happening.

That's bad logic though - it can be applied to almost any job.
Botany should be replaced with a system where you select what plant you want and you wait until it pops out 20 bananas or whatever, but hey, you can drink at the bar while you wait!
Chef choses what food to create and after waiting a bit it pops out of the food-o-matic!
Geneticist chooses what power they want to unlock and after waiting it becomes available!

Sure, current R&D isn't complex or anything, but when it comes down to it, no job is. If you remove all the actual player input except for press X to get Y, then it's all pretty pointless.
Like I said earlier, a tech tree style thing works perfectly fine in RTS' and shit because you have the actual game to play - with SS13 unless you're an antag or a validhunter, doing your job is (a significant part of) the game.

Botany, xenobio, and the like are all more than timegates because they all have the possibility of interesting failures and unexpected progress.

With botany, xenobio, and genetics, the RNG means that you may make progress in an unintentional direction, and then you have an unusual and unexpected array of resources, which leads to emergent gameplay. Similiarly, geneticists can contaminate powers with disabilities, and xenobio can release slimes (interesting failure).

R&D doesn't have unexpected progress or interesting failure. You just jam things into a machine, and if you can't do that, you can't do that and that's about it. There's no possibility of getting something unusual or unwanted and having to work with it.

So while this would help, the best fix to R&D is to find a way to make it's results:
a) Not perfectly predictable
b) Have the potential to be flawed, sabotaged, or otherwise be in a failure state other than "cannot make machine guns."

[lumipharon]

Botany, xenobio, and the like are all more than timegates because they all have the possibility of interesting failures and unexpected progress.

With botany, xenobio, and genetics, the RNG means that you may make progress in an unintentional direction, and then you have an unusual and unexpected array of resources, which leads to emergent gameplay. Similiarly, geneticists can contaminate powers with disabilities, and xenobio can release slimes (interesting failure).

R&D doesn't have unexpected progress or interesting failure. You just jam things into a machine, and if you can't do that, you can't do that and that's about it. There's no possibility of getting something unusual or unwanted and having to work with it.

So while this would help, the best fix to R&D is to find a way to make it's results:
a) Not perfectly predictable
b) Have the potential to be flawed, sabotaged, or otherwise be in a failure state other than "cannot make machine guns."

Firstly, I've already said repeatly that I don't think R&D should stay as is, I'm just saying that Kor's suggestion is in my opinion not the ideal solution for the reasons above. This is not a scenario where it's "Kor's way or the current way", it's "the current way or any other way someone can actually be assed to code"

Also with all of the above jobs, the RNG is predictable, and easily overcome. There is no interesting failures or unexpected progress, you just press RNG until you get the desired output.

Botany: mutations go up or down, so you just have to roll the dice enough times till you get what you want.
Xenobio: You just keep breeding slimes until it produces the one you want (also it's basically impossible for slimes to escape unintentionally, thanks to the new consoles, assuming the player isn't retarded).
Genetics: Exactly the same as botany, you press the rad button until you ping the block above activation, check what it is and discard if undesirable.

Any undesired outcomes can be overcome by pressing the RNG button some more, and negative effects can only happen due to gross incompetence or deliberate sabotage. In R&D's case, this is bad people getting their hands on guns/mechs/FUCKING BOH'S FUCKYOUBOHBOMBERSYOFUCKS/etc.

Edit: To clarify, what I'm saying is that a significant portion of jobs can be boiled down to either pressing the RNG button until they get the desired output (like viro/genetics/etc), or by following already established formulas to get a desired output (R&D/chemistry/etc), but both groups are at heart "consume the player's time doing something tedious and repetitive and call it a job". R&D is not unique in this, and turning it purely into an RTS tech tree functionally removes the job, as anyone can press a button every 10 minutes to set the next tech researching, but it requires no player time investment.

Basically, most jobs are just as tedious as straightforward as R&D, but that isn't a good reason to remove the player time investment because that leaves players with little to do but RP or validhunt, and we all know how much people RP on this server.

[Zilenan91]

How does Goon do R&D anyways? Do they even have it?

[Anonmare]

Goon doesn't have R&D I believe.
Their scientists research Chemistry, Toxins, Artefacts and Telescience.
Bay use the same method as we do for R&D (Deconstruction )

[Saegrimr]

They have a research timer in the artifact lab that does almost exactly what Kor is suggesting.

[kazeespada]

Tech trees will never work because there is always a BEST tech tree and all other trees are shit.

Good bye floral somatorays. Go die on some wilting tech tree branch that no one chooses cause... MUH GUNS!

[Steelpoint]

My idea would put Floral Somatorays as a very cheap tech that is attached in the Laser Weapon tech branch.

Balance wise singular techs, or techs that are not that popular, should be very cheap and quick to pick up AND be attached to a strong tech tree.

[Grazyn]

Tech trees will never work because there is always a BEST tech tree and all other trees are shit.

Good bye floral somatorays. Go die on some wilting tech tree branch that no one chooses cause... MUH GUNS!

Not really, just use the freemium games approach, to unlock some good branches you have to unlock some shitty ones that you will never use first

[Kelenius]

Tech trees will never work because there is always a BEST tech tree and all other trees are shit.

Good bye floral somatorays. Go die on some wilting tech tree branch that no one chooses cause... MUH GUNS!

Not really, just use the freemium games approach, to unlock some good branches you have to unlock some shitty ones that you will never use first

Golly, that would be so much better!

[Steelpoint]

An example being if you want to research the more exotic energy weapons (X-Ray, Laser Cannon, Freeze Gun) that you have to research something else as a base tech, that could be the Floral Gun for example.

[Jazaen]

Well, we would have to balance it pretty hard. And some things (say, bluespace beakers) would need to be placed into more populated trees, or they would never get researched by non-tators.
But it can be done, and would be pretty awesome.