Ideas to ruin security

onleavedontatme · Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:14 am

The thoughts that led to this

-People really like dumb custom options that make them feel unique (chaplain, detective)

-It's a shame department security didn't work, it'd be nice if sec was more integrated into the crew instead of its own faction. I think most modes are balanced around sec fort though.

Anyway the vague idea is instead of simple armbands, being department sec gets you some fancy starting stuff themed to the thing they're guarding, and a little fluff blurb about how the head of the department loves you so he gave you whatever it is

-Science guard could start augged, or with a fancy weapon

-Cargo guard could start with a shotgun, or an explorer suit to go mining

-Medical guard has combat medic related stuff

And so forth.

I'm sure you can tell this is only half formed, but I'm hoping security officer might feel more enjoyable if you're attached to a department, with special gear, and some immediate people to protect (being the RD's bodyguard for example)instead of a faceless mook (this might ruin the theme of security as is though)

Anyway another bad idea please tear it up or help me develop it. Why didn't department sec work the first time?

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:17 am #185718

Remove sec as a department, merge it with cargo.

QM is now the Warden and HoS, sec officers are now shaft miners with more shaft miner slots. Shaft miner sec gives them things to do if there's nothing going on on the station while also giving sec their own form of round progression in the form of upgrading their armor and getting lavaland shit.

ShadowDimentio · Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:20 am

Didn't it though? Department security always worked around me.

Example: I was a science guard and checked in science at the start of the shift. A guy was doing toxins and I told him not to blow up the station. He says he's robust and won't. Time passes and it's rev. I grab an implant and make a beeline to toxins guy. He sighs and explodes a voice bomb in his bag, killing us both. I saved the station from bomb hell.

Zilenan91 wrote:Remove sec as a department, merge it with cargo.

QM is now the Warden and HoS, sec officers are now shaft miners with more shaft miner slots. Shaft miner sec gives them things to do if there's nothing going on on the station while also giving sec their own form of round progression in the form of upgrading their armor and getting lavaland shit.

>Incentivize the guards to all fuck around at mining
>Traitor starts murderboning
>Guards all run back to the station from mining
>The traitor has killed like ten people and vanished

G e n i u s

onleavedontatme · Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:22 am

Well I assume it didn't work since we don't really have it anymore, at least not like we did with sec spawning in different departments.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:22 am #185721

This is something I already do when I play security (then again I haven't played sec in like... 5 months?)

I always hope I spawn as one of the departmental security, or get transferred over to one if theres enough sec.
Usually go buddy up with Cargo, I know how territorial they are and if they know they have a sec officer hanging around thats cool with their shenanigans, they don't have to worry about random people fucking around with the department. In turn they'd have my back against shitters. 10/10 best department to guard.

Sciguard was always pretty boring, really nothing of interest until late in the game when robotics is smashed open and a fuckfest.
Engi guard was about the same way, i'd just leave and roam the halls honestly.

Never tried medguard, but I imagine it was mostly dealing with a horde of greys being greys and being called a nazi for kicking them out.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:24 am #185722

Currently all departmental security is is extra access. That's the only reason sec has it, so they don't have to pester the AI over opening doors when one of them can just do it.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:05 am #185738

it doesn't really help any. half the time your guy with the access you need is 3/4 of the way across the station, afk or dead and thus 9/10 of the department you're trying to get into is dead already by the time you make it in.

adding more access to sec in general might be a good idea tbh

TechnoAlchemist · Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:07 am

I've seen department sec usually respond to calls on their department channel, just sitting in the outpost is usually a waste, so I just patrol until someone needs help

Davidchan · Post by **Davidchan** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:42 am #185760

I kinda like the idea of a dept focused sec. The brig, Warden and HoS all remain. Each Dept gets 1-2 sec guards who have basic access in their area. A Civ/Bar guard might be worth fleshing out.

Sec Officers patrol their areas, have a holding cell in their 'office' for minor offenders and take anyone who needs a 5+ minute sentence back the main brig for processing by the warden. In the event of nukes or rev, Warden/HoS can recall everyone for better equipment. Or each office could just have it's own mini armory and a console in the brig can remotely unblock it for use.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:54 am #185762

Kor wrote:Why didn't department sec work the first time?

It did work the first time.

It allowed security (Read: Hollywood sugar glass, only fit to be leapt through dramatically by the protagonist) to actually benefit from all the cool shit added to the game since late 2013, which our current loadout is still adjusted for.

But it went the way of ketchup, I mean... pepper spray, If it's good enough to be useful, it's meme'd till it's not.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:55 am #185764

I like your ideas for this kor

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:04 am #185766

Zilenan91 wrote:Remove sec as a department, merge it with cargo.

QM is now the Warden and HoS, sec officers are now shaft miners with more shaft miner slots. Shaft miner sec gives them things to do if there's nothing going on on the station while also giving sec their own form of round progression in the form of upgrading their armor and getting lavaland shit.

ShadowDimentio · Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:14 am

Give sciguard full augments and something else cool

Give medguard a back-mounted medgun for SICK COMBAT HEALING

Give carguard a miner suit and gun to help fight at mining

Give enguard a russian revolver so they can kill themselves out of shame hardsuit, insulated gloves and some magboots plus maybe a toolbelt

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:41 am #185773

Zilenan91 wrote:
Zilenan91 wrote:Remove sec as a department, merge it with cargo.

QM is now the Warden and HoS, sec officers are now shaft miners with more shaft miner slots. Shaft miner sec gives them things to do if there's nothing going on on the station while also giving sec their own form of round progression in the form of upgrading their armor and getting lavaland shit.

ShadowDimentio wrote:Give sciguard full augments and something else cool

Give medguard a back-mounted medgun for SICK COMBAT HEALING

Give carguard a miner suit and gun to help fight at mining

Give enguard a russian revolver so they can kill themselves out of shame hardsuit, insulated gloves and some magboots plus maybe a toolbelt

Remember when I just said "if it's good enough to be useful, it's meme'd till it's not?

But seriously, Medical guard gets a medibelt with the medkit loadout in it
Engi-officer gets a toolbelt,
Supply and science get a sec belt with a smart loadout already in it, say... two cuffs, pepper spray, flash, flashbang flashlight , and stun baton, it's not anything you couldn't already get, but I can't think of anything all that useful without being too useful.

TechnoAlchemist · Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:43 am

You don't really need to give them special load outs when they can get the gear for them from the department

ShadowDimentio · Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:43 am

>Give them stuff that's literally a request away from getting

G e n i u s

This is sure to revolutionize the game!!

Takeguru · Post by **Takeguru** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:46 am #185779

Full aug would be bad because full aug is space immunity so they can just slap on internals and meme around in space

A limb or something would be alright

ShadowDimentio · Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:52 am

Security already have hardsuits though, and you have no slowdown in space. It doesn't change much.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:55 am #185781

This is a side idea but make the noir suit obtainable outside of the detectives locker so i can be a freelance PI as an assistant

Davidchan · Post by **Davidchan** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:02 am #185782

A special atmosia guard who gets an air rifle that needs to be pumped to fire, pumping it three or more times will knock a person prone, 6 or more is a short stun and anything above 9 pumps deals brute damage. /s

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:14 am #185784

Departmental sec is useless tbh. Its just good for the extra access and nearly all of the time sec is so understaffed that there's just one or two departments that have a guard. Security should just get HoS level access to the station without the command stuff, HoS office, and armory. Then give the officers armbands for each department and more elaborate access to that department. ie. The med guard can get into genetics/viro/surgery, plus basic access to other departments.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:42 am #185790

The only department I feel attached to is science.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:56 am #185798

Departmental Security was implemented as a attempt to justify taking away general departmental access to Officers, the idea that one officer would man the outpost in each department and patrol it.

It failed due to several reasons.

It fragmented Security, all Officers spawned in their Departmental Offices. This removed any aspect of round start interaction or at least allowing the HoS/Warden to check quickly how many Officers there are.
It made individual Officers weaker due to lack of basic departmental access, thus making it much harder to do their job. How do you respond to help from RnD quickly when you only have basic Cargo access? (this is still a problem)
It made looting supplies easier since there would be a full Sec locker in each department.
There was no choice, you're thrown into a department at random. It was not oft uncommon for officers to ask for transfers.
Its boring. Asking a player to sit in their office half the shift gets tedious. Being a Officer usually entails walking about and patroling, you can't do that when the Departmental Officers lacked ANY FULL ACCESS to their down assigned departments, this forced the officers to usually sit in their offices and swap through the cameras.

Spawning Officers with random toys depending on what the RNG gods assign them is not going help anything.

If you want to help Officers then give them increase their access to the station, at minimum all Officers should have basic departmental access, and likely access to a few extra, non private, areas as well.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:54 am #185804

the other reason why departmental officers don't work is because one officer can very easily be overcome.

what really determines combat in this game is ambush advantage, whether that's a vision/intelligence advantage or a first strike capability, and the officers simply never have this advantage.

the pitiful armor and stun weaponry doesn't matter when it's impossible for them to tell who is friendly and who is hostile before the prod hits them.

to survive in an ambush scenario you need at least two officers, maybe more; a single departmental officer will just be splattered by any decent traitor with essentially 0% chance of survival. better for security to keep grouped up and respond quickly to places they are needed than scooby-doo into death.

Actionb · Post by **Actionb** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:35 am #185845

The best bit about department sec are the rechargers and maybe the sec records, if you can be bothered.
The rest is just a little more access (which is still not enough most of the time) and the potential for some mild RP on very slow low pop rounds - notably in cargo.

Considering the chronic lack of security manpower and the futility of showing security presence (as in: the grumpy redshirt aiming at you with the disabler behind that glass window deterring you from doing something stupid) anywhere but in cargo or medbay, this is the best outcome you should have hoped for for 'departmental security'.
If you expected more, you're a bit delusional.

Dep security didn't fail because the officers didn't feel attached to their assigned department.

horrible placement of the sec office in a department. Example box science: you're essentially guarding the science corridor while people break in from maint or the hallways. Box cargo and medbay are well placed though.
the lack of access to the departments: guy sabotaging atmos, engi guard can't get in/scientist getting murdered in toxins, sci guard can't get in.
guarding an empty department: engineering is usually empty after the intial busy 15 minutes. Nobody is gonna play a watchdog.
you're needed patrolling the hallways because nobody else will/you're needed to respond to help calls from unguarded departments
as soon as there is a station wide emergency (which is often), guarding a single department is pointless

InsaneHyena · Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:47 am

I approve of special snowflake secguard. The whole reason I prefer playing detective as opposed to a secguard is because he's so snowflakey and unique.

1) Toolset arm to the science guard. He never asked for this.
2) Engineering guard should start with a full augmentation so he can fuck around in space without a hardsuit. He's the guy who will come when AI screams "CE breaking into my sat".
3) Cargo guard starts with a sec autorifle, because we need to pay Steelpoint a tribute.
4) Medical guard starts with a pack of omnizine cigarettes.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:55 am #185849

Newer maps tend to do Departmental Security a bit better.

The problem with maps like Box is that the designers simply had to find whatever corner was available and squeeze in the small sec office, this means that most Sec Officers are in bad positions.

If you look at newer maps, or look at my station, you'll oft see that the Departmental Officers are built in from the get go, thus meaning they are better positioned to have better visibility throughout the department.

Lumbermancer · Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:03 pm

Kor wrote:And so forth.

So forth until you run out of departments. Upon which the new arriving departamentless officers will feel the sting of envy, and powergaming new-recruits will pass realizing all the memes have been taken.

ShadowDimentio · Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:45 pm

If you're some kind of cuck that only plays security for ocassionally getting a fancy toy, you're probably not a good guard regardless.

BACK IN MY DAY WE JUST HAD OUR TASERS AND BATONS AND AS THE TIDE ROLLED IN TO KICK OUR TEETH IN WE COVERED EACH OTHERS BACKS AND BEAT THEM BACK WITH OUR ROBUSTNESS. WE WERE HEROES!

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:50 pm #185890

I feel like this suggestion is akin to Rainbow Siege 6, each Security Officer gets to select one of several different operators each with their own unique loadout.

While amusing I disagree with giving Officers random RNG equipment based on their random department choice.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:54 pm #185892

I am for decentralized Security.

If something really bad attacks the station, like Nuke Ops, the Captain can call an ERT.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:02 pm #185894

> Calling ERT during nuke ops

This is not bay.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:09 pm #185895

Giving the chaplain a gimmick weapon and armor made it a pretty popular role. Might be worth trying with security to see if we get similar results. Encouraging the cargo security officer to go mining seems like a bad choice though. Security should stick to main station.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:10 pm #185896

The critical difference is that before and after the Chaplain is a low stress job with zero responsibilities.

A snowflake security will still have all the concerns and weight of security before, but with a fancy medpack.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:26 pm #185900

I would totally play security more often than never, if I could get some snowflakey augs roundstart. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. People who usually play detective will do the same.

Takeguru · Post by **Takeguru** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:53 pm #185940

ShadowDimentio wrote:Security already have hardsuits though, and you have no slowdown in space. It doesn't change much.

Yeah, but they need to go out of their way to go get one

Roundstart space immunity isn't a good idea

Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:07 pm

I don't think any of these are going to solve the problem of making security more appealing to the average player. I still maintain that it's a player problem because of this meme that all of security are untrustworthy.

InsaneHyena wrote:This is not bay.

Shut up, please.

Sidon · Post by **Sidon** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:32 pm #185991

Security will never be good since it exists to ruin fun and caters to players who like that.

Pilgrim · Post by **Pilgrim** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:13 pm #186010

The only way sec would not emerge as its own faction with the current player culture is if you removed the brig and armory. Instead each office would have one or two cells and a supply locker. The HoS' office could have a button that unlocks emergency gear i.e. lasers, hard suits, and so on in those offices.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:56 pm #186018

InsaneHyena wrote:Fuck off, mongoloid. I repeat, this is not bay, where ERT gets called by captain so often, it's basically a gameplay element. The reality of /tg/ is, ERT is called only when the station is completely fucked/the round is basically over anyway/there's a murderboning antag who repeatedly recalls the shuttle. There is no way in hell ERT arrive to fight nuke ops without a shitstorm raging both in OOC and here, on forums.

There are more than one tier of ERT.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:38 am #186046

Sidon wrote:Security will never be good since it exists to ruin fun and caters to players who like that.

Or you can do what I do as warden and just not give a fuck unless it's extremely important. Lawyer wants sunglasses? Sure, I don't give a fuck. All access clown honking around the brig just hanging out and chatting? Don't give a fuck, let him have fun unless he starts breaking shit, trying to get into the armory, or being a dick. Unless someone's being a dick to someone, tearing up the station, or is an antag, just don't give a fuck about it. Takes off a lot of the stress when you're not trying to be a space law nazi.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:05 am #186064

Sidon wrote:Security will never be good since it exists to ruin fun and caters to players who like that.

People have a weird idea of fun in SS13.

Breaking into secure areas, stealing what's not yours, attacking people, pretending to be a antagonists. Those are what will get security on your ass and these are what players bitch about when security ruins their fun.

Is it possible for players to have fun in a way that does not involve being a shit head?

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:09 am #186065

things that ruin my fun*

*being a shithead, being an antagonist but only when i'm one

need to be removed from this game as they prevent interesting things*

*interesting here referring solely to stupid brainless murderboning

from happening.

i think it's fun to do R&D so please remove everything that stops me from doing R&D every round without disturbance from the game, including antags, a singularity / tesla you can release, security, power failures, random events etc. because what is most important to me is whatever i'm doing and whatever everyone else is doing literally means nothing to me.

t. pkp

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:38 am #186126

Zilenan91 wrote:Remove sec as a department, merge it with cargo.

QM is now the Warden and HoS, sec officers are now shaft miners with more shaft miner slots. Shaft miner sec gives them things to do if there's nothing going on on the station while also giving sec their own form of round progression in the form of upgrading their armor and getting lavaland shit.

Only if the QM remains a non-head.

Davidchan · Post by **Davidchan** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:53 am #186135

QuarterWarden would be the single biggest conflict of interest in the game. Even more so than security trying to hold a HoS to spacelaw or arrest him for wordlessly murdering a non-antag.

Warden definitely should stay in the brig and armory, away from cargo and their hidden armory.

Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:45 pm

Cik wrote:things that ruin my fun*

*being a shithead, being an antagonist but only when i'm one

need to be removed from this game as they prevent interesting things*

*interesting here referring solely to stupid brainless murderboning

from happening.

i think it's fun to do R&D so please remove everything that stops me from doing R&D every round without disturbance from the game, including antags, a singularity / tesla you can release, security, power failures, random events etc. because what is most important to me is whatever i'm doing and whatever everyone else is doing literally means nothing to me.

t. pkp

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literally none of this is true? i love loose singularities, i tried buffing the tesla to make it blow shit up, i absolutely hated EZ-R&D with a passion, and i do not always murderbone. when did these stigmas form about me, and more importantly how? you just stated like 40 things that are literally the opposite of what i think and attributed them to me. i haven't even posted in this thread until now and as far as i can tell your post is completely out of context. what the actual fuck?

callanrockslol · Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:40 am

Implant the detective and give him regular sec access as well.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:41 am #186964

Doesn't he already have a loyalty/mindshield implant tho?

Edit: Not that it means much since the Detective needs to be a special snowflake and get his antag status and a mindshield/loyalty implant

Post by **oranges** » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:05 am #186965

why was the detective made antag again?

Post by **oranges** » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:07 am #186966

I have an idea

what if we gave security players a bigger hitbox