Of health and safety

[Kelenius]

But mostly health.

Every human has blood level. It starts at 100% and slowly restores on its own. Inaprovaline, bicaridine, and tricordazine all help restore it quicker. It is lowered by wounds of any type, and over time by bleeding.

Every weapon that deals brute damage has a 'sharpness' parameter, which shows how likely is it to cause bleeding. Burn damage doesn't cause bleeding. Armor can protect you from bleeding. Bruise packs stop it when used. Any body part may have bleeding. It slowly heals on its own. Anything that heals brute damage heals it. It causes blood loss.

Brute and burn damage are slowly regenerated, at the speed of 0.1 per body part per tick, provided blood level is high enough. Once it's below 95%, regeneration slows down, up to stopping completely at 80%.

Toxic damage is very slowly regenerated, at the speed of 0.01 per tick, under same blood level conditions.

Pain: sum of brute, burn and toxic damage on all body parts.

Conditions you may be in:

Having blood level below 80% causes you to take suffocation damage. Having it drop below 50% (?) is instant death.

If it goes above 150, you pass out. If it goes above 300, instant death.

If arm has more than 50 summary damage, you can't use it. If a leg has more than 50 damage, you can't run. If two legs are damaged, you fall down and may only crawl, at half of the walking speed. Damage to limbs is capped at 75.

If your head or torso take more than 150 damage, you die instantly.

If your suffocation damage is above 85, you have a chance to pass out every tick. When it reaches 100, you pass out instantly. When it reaches 200, you die instantly.

Critical condition: you enter it if: 1) Your suffocation damage is above 150; 2) Damage to the head or torso is more than 100; 3) Toxin damage is more than 100; 4) Sum of damage to head, torso, toxin, and half of suffocation is more than 150.

Once you are in crit, you can't move on your own; you can still see what's happening around you, unless you passed out for a different reason; you can't talk; you still breathe and regenerate, provided blood level is sufficient. A special variable shows how bad your condition is, it is slowly increasing. Inaprovaline stops it from increasing. Once it reaches a certain value, you die. Being brought out of crit will make it slowly reduce to 0.

Antag considerations:

Cultists: it's now impossible to meta cultists by checking suit sensors. Blood boil will not drop targets into crit instantly. Swords become more robust due to being sharp and causing bleeding. More ways to pass out means easier to use soulstones.

Nuke ops: their suits protect them from bleeding, and they don't have sharp weapons. This will not change much.

Wizard: slight buff due to being able to hide somewhere and regenerate, but mob with spears can force him to retreat due to bleeding, giving crew more time.

---

This is quite a rough draft. What do you think?

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Okay, before you do any suggestion at all, you have to ask one important question. What purpose will it serve? Because I don't see any obvious benefits. "it's cool", "muh realism" and "cmon guys we need complex medical how can we live without it" don't count, okay?

Like, instead of straightforward and easy to understand "you have 100 health, if you lose it all, you go into crit, if you go to -100 you die" you have some kind of different death conditions, crit conditions, what, how, why?

[Kelenius]

Okay, before you do any suggestion at all, you have to ask one important question. What purpose will it serve? Because I don't see any obvious benefits. "it's cool", "muh realism" and "cmon guys we need complex medical how can we live without it" don't count, okay?

Like, instead of straightforward and easy to understand "you have 100 health, if you lose it all, you go into crit, if you go to -100 you die" you have some kind of different death conditions, crit conditions, what, how, why?

1) Not having to get medical help for every 1 brute scratch and every time you click on lightbulb
2) Making it harder to kill someone accidentally
3) Making it easier to tell if someone wants to kill you or no
4) Making more difference between melee weapons, as right now they are only different in strength
5) Giving ways to disable someone that are not handcuffs
6) Giving inaprovaline some purpose
7) Making it possible to save someone without medicine, even if it takes a while
8) Making hallways less blood-covered with every corpse/critted guy that gets dragged over
9) More stuff for detective

[Lo6a4evskiy]

1) Not having to get medical help for every 1 brute scratch and every time you click on lightbulb

That's good

2) Making it harder to kill someone accidentally

What do you mean? Is it even possible to kill someone accidentally?

3) Making it easier to tell if someone wants to kill you or no

Again, I don't quite understand

4) Making more difference between melee weapons, as right now they are only different in strength

I guess, but bleeding will not be a great factor in combat. I guess I can see murderbonering traitor bleeding to death because he happened to have no bruise packs (I guess making ghetto bandages should be a thing though), but that's about it. Either bleeding will not be quick enough or it will be too effective. The latter will cause more pain in the butt for admins if people will die to bleeding after fights that normally wouldn't cause that.

5) Giving ways to disable someone that are not handcuffs

Won't they bleed to death? I suppose not if you use burn damage. But there's also crawling, so it's not REALLY disabling them completely. Close enough, I guess.

6) Giving inaprovaline some purpose

You probably never died on the way to medbay. Cloning is pain in the butt, inaprovaline is actually pretty good because you can save a bunch of people without needing to CRP everyone. It's just MDs respond to medical emergencies very rarely and then just drag people in crit to cryo.

7) Making it possible to save someone without medicine, even if it takes a while

Sure.

8) Making hallways less blood-covered with every corpse/critted guy that gets dragged over
9) More stuff for detective

Eh, I don't really get both of those.

[Kelenius]

2) Making it harder to kill someone accidentally

What do you mean? Is it even possible to kill someone accidentally?

3) Making it easier to tell if someone wants to kill you or no

Again, I don't quite understand

Hits to the head and torso are more lethal, and hits to limbs are more disabling.

4) Making more difference between melee weapons, as right now they are only different in strength

I guess, but bleeding will not be a great factor in combat. I guess I can see murderbonering traitor bleeding to death because he happened to have no bruise packs (I guess making ghetto bandages should be a thing though), but that's about it. Either bleeding will not be quick enough or it will be too effective. The latter will cause more pain in the butt for admins if people will die to bleeding after fights that normally wouldn't cause that.

What I mean is that all melee weapons are working in exactly the same way, with the only difference being between them is how strong they are. Toolbox is always better than a crobwar because it is stronger. Giving them sharpness means that toolbox will have more damage, but it will be blunt, while crowbar deals less damage but can cause target to bleed.

5) Giving ways to disable someone that are not handcuffs

Won't they bleed to death? I suppose not if you use burn damage. But there's also crawling, so it's not REALLY disabling them completely. Close enough, I guess.

Well, right now if you don't have handcuffs the only way to disable someone is beat them into crit, which has its own problems.

6) Giving inaprovaline some purpose

You probably never died on the way to medbay. Cloning is pain in the butt, inaprovaline is actually pretty good because you can save a bunch of people without needing to CRP everyone. It's just MDs respond to medical emergencies very rarely and then just drag people in crit to cryo.

I see it used much less often than I'd like to. I guess I could say 'making inaprovaline more useful'.

8) Making hallways less blood-covered with every corpse/critted guy that gets dragged over
9) More stuff for detective

Eh, I don't really get both of those.

When they run out of blood, they don't bleed anymore.
And, well, more differences in how someone can die, more hits for the detective to what happened? E.g. he could tell if victim was bleeding or no, and thus know if the weapon was sharp or that. That's a minor thing, though.

[Gun Hog]

How similar / different is to compared to Baymed?

[Bluespace]

Can I hide all the bruise packs and stab people and watch the station slowly bleed to death?

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Honestly, I think it has too many needless complicated things for the goals it achieves.

I kind of like the thing with damage to limbs/torsohead being different and the ability to disable people like that. Everyone would still just aim for the head though.

However, the whole thing with blood seems kind of pointless.

How similar / different is to compared to Baymed?

Do people think of baymed like some fucking deity or symbol of perfection now? Or that it's the opposite, the thing to avoid at all cost? Why does it matter if proposed system is similar to the one on another server? Can't you, I don't know, look at the proposed changes and decide whether or not they're good on THIS server?

[Kelenius]

Honestly, I think it has too many needless complicated things for the goals it achieves.

I kind of like the thing with damage to limbs/torsohead being different and the ability to disable people like that. Everyone would still just aim for the head though.

However, the whole thing with blood seems kind of pointless.

The blood mostly exists to limit regeneration.

[Rolan7]

This seems like a start to a reasonable system, I like most of the points you numerated.

[Steelpoint]

Add in a ghetto way to bandage bleeding wounds, for example have basic aid kits in departments that have bandages in them and/or use clothing to bandage a wound, clothing could have a chance (25%) of breaking after 30 seconds and for bleeding to start again. It might also be worth exploring the ability for certain clothing items to slowly clot bleeding wounds (Like the Medical/Nuke Op/Wizard RIG's or HoS/Captain Armour).

So long as there is a alternative way to bandage wounds aide from Bruise Packs, this is a fantastic suggestion.

The main pluses I can see of this are...
+ Not overtly reliant on Medbay for injuries, minor wounds will heal over time.
+ A more indepth system which many people have been calling for.
+ More tactical choice in melee weapons, do you use a weapon that knocks out quicker (Blunt) or kills quicker (Sharp).
+ In addition, easier to discern the intent of a opponent based on their weapon choice, if their using a Sharp weapon they have possible intent to murder.
+ Going into Critical is not a death sentence in all cases, if left alone you can come out of Critical (If the conditions are right).
+ A attacker has to go out of their way to kill someone, discerns between someone just wanting you out of the way and wanting you dead.

And the disadvantages
- Makes Security and Antag armour more lucrative than before, due to protection against Sharp attacks.
- Makes killing someone a bit harder to do, meaning you have to ensure the target is dead.
- Can't rely on a wounded target to go to medbay.


In addition, I can see new mechanics being added such as blood transfusions to instantly restore someone's blood completely.

OVERALL: I think this suggestion would be a fantastic base to work on a medical overhaul.

[AssassinT90]

This sounds amazing.

It will hopefully be the end of being axed in the head four times and then healing yourself to full HP with a bruise pack.

[miggles]

we get it lo6
you hate baymed and you dont want other people to like it
now can we please return to the topic at hand

[MisterPerson]

Just deleted 15 posts, most of which were talking about Baymed. This idea isn't Baymed. You can compare it to Baymed if you want, but talking solely about Baymed and how shit/good/popular/unwanted it is is completely off topic. If you want to talk about Baymed, that's fine, just take it to another thread.

I like this idea, especially limiting the amount of blood in a body. Could use some streamlining, but I like how it should maintain the simplicity of the current system so we don't turn Medbay into Medbay's Wild Ride like on /vg/.

[Steelpoint]

The biggest reason why I like this idea is simply because minor wounds (and major wounds over time) will heal themselves meaning you don't get people asking for help over a 3 brute wound.

[AssassinT90]

This idea also has the advantage of making assaults an actually serious issue. Now that you can't bruise pack a fire axe away, people should actually think twice before hitting people to near-death because "the medibot is nearby".

That fucker that you just lasered to crit? He won't be getting up anytime soon.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Because making actions that are not bannable worse for victims is an advantage.

[Cipher3]

Well, it adds a bit of that... dare I say it... tension and paranoia.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

How does the fact that healing myself will be more pain in the ass than it usually is add tension and paranoia?

[Cipher3]

You'll be more careful and cautious after you bleed out on the floor the first couple of times.

[AssassinT90]

You'll be more careful and cautious after you bleed out on the floor the first couple of times.

Thanks for making that obvious to people who couldn't see it very clearly.

[Rolan7]

Slashing someone is very lethal, so it'd be more bannable.
Bashing someone and stealing their stuff would be better now because the victim can be rendered unconscious for a while but still survive, unless the attacker finishes them off.

I don't see what "pain" does. Does it determine the status of the health indicator on the HUD?

[Kelenius]

Determines status of indicator, determines slowdown, makes you pass out when it reaches 150.

You can bash someone into arms/legs with blunt weapons and make them pass out of pain without any risk of death.

[miggles]

idea for new medical system: stop naming everything you make "of x and y"

[Kelenius]

idea for new medical system: stop naming everything you make "of x and y"

Never.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

You'll be more careful and cautious after you bleed out on the floor the first couple of times.

Be more careful and cautious how? Don't let people stand near you kind of shit? Don't try to talk to anybody and avoid contact at all cost?

Most confrontations that I experience are either a) somebody wants to kill me or b) some jackass wants to fuck with me for no good reason or may be there was a misunderstanding that escalated, whatever. And how can I avoid them, exactly? All you're doing here is punishing the victim.

I mean, I GUESS you kind of make people less aggressive since they will get more punishment, may be that's what you mean. But really, shitlords don't care too much about dying every now and then, save for being injured. Attacker will have an advantage in any case.

The "we're gonna ban for this now" argument is good and all, but it's gonna add a bunch of grey areas to the system which right now works fairly simple (admins basically need to find out who started the fight, whether victim was critted or killed and whether the victor tried to get them medical attention). Now you have to see if they will bleed out or whatever, what kind of weapon was used, the attacker can just say that he didn't notice the bleeding/didn't think of it as severe/whatever, and what are you gonna do then, may be they just didn't find another weapon, etc. Obviously all admins will each have different opinion on the subject, all this will lead to inconsistencies, not to mention that it'll just take more time and investigation for admins to deal with. Frankly, between using solution via game mechanics and solution via admins we should almost always pick first if at all possible.

Also, by making more things bannable, you indirectly buff antagonists, but it's a minor thing.

[Kelenius]

Dying via bleeding is actually very unlikely to happen. You will stop regenerating rather quickly, but it doesn't cause as much damage unless it's very low. Like I said, blood is mostly there to limit blood strains and to limit regeneration. If you weren't critted or knocked unconscious, you most likely can get help with you bleeding on your own. If you were, well, they'll see it, and the rules here will be the same as right now.

If you are critted without bloodloss, and they stop right after they crit you, you will heal back.
If you are critted with bloodloss, and they stop right after they crit you, you may or may not heal back, but it's pretty much the same as being critted now.

[Rolan7]

This nerfs the attacker because the victim will probably be able to slash them a bit, which is a more significant penalty than a brute pack or two. That penalizes people for escalating, because the knives might come out and deal lasting damage that a brute pack can't instantly erase.

And if you have a conflict where neither side is killbaiting, just itching for a fight, there's an option of less-lethal blunt damage. Fixes the whole "Oh I bashed him into crit because he shoved me, and then I just failed to get him to medbay in time" excuse for murderboning.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

The problem is, blunt damage is not less-lethal. It's the same. Well, I guess regeneration makes up for SOME of it, but not too much. You also would have to balance out damage of all sharp weapons.

And no, it doesn't "nerf the attacker". It applies to both and the attacker has a chance of first strike, so you're still hurting the victim more.

Whole sharpness and bleeding seems to be there for the sake of it being there, honestly.

[Rolan7]

True, I should have said it nerfs the *winner*. Easy to get "aggressor" and "winner" mixed up with our gameplay...
The loser has a slightly better chance of surviving under this system, though really only if the winner doesn't want to kill them.
The winner is likely to lose blood though, which is a minor but long-lasting hazard that doesn't get instantly erased by a couple of bruise packs.

[Mechoid]

I quite like this idea, but I play borgs so take that how you will. How would the system work with augments? Would augments be unable to bleed or add to 'pain'? Harder to disable with usual means? And would EMPs actually disable augmented parts temporarily as if they were a normal disabled part? I.E. Robotic legs, EMP occurs, crawling for 15 seconds or so?

[Kelenius]

This was put on hold for a long while, but a few days ago I started working on it again.

Currently, there are new conditions for being put in crit (too much damage to head, too much damage to torso, etc) and dying (same things that put you into crit but harsher, or being in crit for too long). Humans regenerate burn and brute damage, much slower if they lost blood or and in crit. Pain and lack of oxygen can drop you unconscious. You get message when you drop into crit, die, or are not in crit anymore. If an arm has >50 damage, you can't pick items with it. If a leg has >50 damage, you can't run. If your both legs are damaged, you fall down. Health indicator shows damage to limbs separately.

Still need to add bandages and blood leaking out properly, and fixing things.

You can check how it works here. I've only added sharpness to the shard currently, though.

[Ezel]

So bleeding is like extra damage to the target?

Neat

[Reimoo]

So this does make medbay useful, right?

[callanrockslol]

So this does make medbay useful, right?

Onky for cloining

[Raven776]

Only if I'm still able to shoot people up with my hypospray as a mediborg and make them all better, thus removing the need for any doctor's but gens, surgeons, chemists, and viro.

[Silavite]

Would too much pain cause people to go into shock?

[Reimoo]

So what exactly is the point of completely reworking our health system if our boring med code isn't updated at all?